EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 591
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
Well, my monogreen Stompy doesn't give a shit about your bans though | ||
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Ghostpvp
United States462 Posts
At least I can play BUG delver again Welcome back to the proverbial and literal 'top' miracles | ||
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DarthXX
Australia998 Posts
The pod ban is especially surprising since that deck has been a mainstay of the format for so long. The deck is strong no doubt but its not JTMS+SFM levels of oppressive and warranted a ban but idk. It seems like a problem of their own making as they want to push creatures and reduce the power of spells so they end up sticking strong answers to Pod on creatures which in turn just end up being utilised by the Pod deck to even greater effect. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
I'm pretty sure Pod will come out of the ban list in the next year, after they've printed some safeguards for it. On January 20 2015 08:08 MoonBear wrote: Welcome to the world of BGx Tarmogoyf wars. All hail our Tarmorhinoverlord. And fuck those who don't like playing 4/5s for 2, clearly. PS : I'll be around playing 4/5s for 1 personnaly, Tasigur is DA SHIT. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On January 21 2015 21:20 amazingxkcd wrote: whelp, good thing i pulled out of magic a year ago. Once again, Wizard not even knowing what they are doing with themselves. Actually I think this is a case of wizards having a very good idea of what they are doing with intentional, well-thought out bans. I don't play modern, but the justification for the pod ban makes a lot of sense to me. | ||
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Merany
France890 Posts
 To be honest, I agree with those bans expect maybe DTT in Modern which probably could have stayed or at least it was worth trying because I don't feel like the argument they made that TC and DTT replace each other is quite true all the time. And like most people, I would have liked more cards to come out of the ban list: BBE and AV for example. Anyway, like you guys say, Goyf as strong as ever = me happy :D | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10236 Posts
On January 21 2015 22:33 BallinWitStalin wrote: Actually I think this is a case of wizards having a very good idea of what they are doing with intentional, well-thought out bans. I don't play modern, but the justification for the pod ban makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just going to quickly explain to you why a pod ban was not necessary. MTG modern is much like BW T > Z > P > T but much more relevant. Pod > Any other Value deck like Delver > Combo decks (Tron, Twin) > Pod TC, fine, needed a ban, blah blah. Delver decks fall out of favor. Oh, look, what's the decks that they countered the most? Combo decks. Oh look, what deck do those newly rising combo decks beat the best? Pod. So with a ban to TC, Pod decks will naturally get weaker as they have less value decks to prey on. Pod decks were so popular BECAUSE of their amazing winrate and matchup vs the delver decks. People played Pod to COUNTER delver. Sure, Pod still has good matchups in pretty much every other M/U, but they still crumble to Tron and have a hard time vs Twin. Wizards needed to look more at a bigger picture instead of just saying "oh, pod won the last X GPs, needs ban". top 8s did not show 50% or more pod decks. in fact, i think they only showed less than 30%. They should look at what happens when they only ban/unban one card. TC? ok, what happens. if they still need to tweak, and if pod was still too strong after speculating a TC ban, then fine, ban pod (im talking about in the same banning, not wait another 2 months to make another ban). | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
"I want efficient creatures -> Hmm Kitchen Finks is a good card -> Pod is a great way of taking advantage of it -> I should optimise this deck -> I'm now running a variant of Pod (Melira/Angel/Kiki/etc.)" And in the end you get to play a good midrange deck that also has the advantage of being able to tutor lots of one-ofs and has access to combo kills to. It's pretty efficient and powerful at what it does. The problem I think with the recent set of bans is that Wizards isn't really putting forward clearly what they want their Eternal formats to be. The Modern bans, in conjunction with previous bans, can very much be (rightly or wrongly) interpreted as "we're going to ban important cards in any deck that becomes very good". It creates a lot of nervousness (irrational or not) because there's that concern about "what's next on the chopping block?" It's made a bit worse here because Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were only released a few months ago, which unfortunately suggests that either Wizards really doesn't playtest their cards properly or that Wizards indeed does just ban cards from whatever the best deck is. There is also the problem that the best creature in the format is nearly always Tarmogoyf, which is ridiculously expensive, when Wizards said that Modern was supposed to address the accessibility issue that Legacy had. Delver and Pod were (for the most part) not very expensive decks for people to build and get into Modern with, and losing them does raise the hurdle for getting into Modern. There's also the narrative of where people could take good cards from Standard and continue to play with them forever in formats like Modern/Legacy. Banning Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time has the unfortunate implication that Wizards is uninterested in letting cards whose power level goes above an arbitrary level stay in the game and everything needs to be about playing creatures and turning them sideways with no room for interesting stuff (again, rightly or wrongly). I also question whether Pod being removed is somehow going to make non-Tarmogoyf decks somehow good. Apart from stuff like GW decks designed to prey on GBx Rock (Wilt-Leaf Liege + Loxodon Smiter laugh at Liliana of the Veil) I doubt it since they're not exactly doing many spicy things as they are currently. The bigger concern I have is the Treasure Cruise ban in Legacy. I really don't understand it when Brainstorm is a thing and by far is and will continue to be the best card in Legacy. If a new card suddenly making one specific strategy very good and dominant for a while is a big deal, well do I have news for Wizards. (Remember when Griselbrand was considered Necropotence 2.0, or when True Name Nemesis was printed?) The unbannings are a bit meh. I can't see how Golgari Grave Troll will shake up the format when we already have Dredge 5 but no Dread Return (Vengevine decks maybe?) and Worldgorger Dragon will just people can force a draw I guess? I'm willing to be proven wrong, but they're not exactly high impact cards. (The post from the Mothership says as much.) For Modern at least I'd rather have seen Bloodbriad Elf, Ancestral Visions and stuff come off the list but oh well I'm a bit biased here I suppose. | ||
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Ghostpvp
United States462 Posts
The bigger concern I have is the Treasure Cruise ban in Legacy. I really don't understand it when Brainstorm is a thing and by far is and will continue to be the best card in Legacy. If a new card suddenly making one specific strategy very good and dominant for a while is a big deal, well do I have news for Wizards. (Remember when Griselbrand was considered Necropotence 2.0, or when True Name Nemesis was printed?) While brainstorm is the best card in legacy (not even close). Nothing buries your opponent faster in games where both players are playing 'fair' strategies than casting multiple treasure cruise. I would argue that TNN isn't even all that troublesome by itself in legacy. It quickly becomes dominating to other 'fair' creature when paired with SFM (All 'fair' creature strategies are inferior to SFM in legacy). | ||
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mavignon
France369 Posts
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On January 22 2015 05:51 MoonBear wrote: It's made a bit worse here because Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were only released a few months ago, which unfortunately suggests that either Wizards really doesn't playtest their cards properly or that Wizards indeed does just ban cards from whatever the best deck is. I think it's pretty clear that wotc really cares primarily about standard. They designs card for standard. They wanted all standard PTs because standard is what makes them MONEY. I think they knew that treasure cruise was highly likely to be busted in older formats but they don't really care. | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 22 2015 07:08 Ghostpvp wrote: While brainstorm is the best card in legacy (not even close). Nothing buries your opponent faster in games where both players are playing 'fair' strategies than casting multiple treasure cruise. I would argue that TNN isn't even all that troublesome by itself in legacy. It quickly becomes dominating to other 'fair' creature when paired with SFM (All 'fair' creature strategies are inferior to SFM in legacy). The way I see it, if you're playing a 'fair' strategy there are a lot of other things in legacy that can get you card advantage as well (Crucible giving you back Wastelands, Sylvan Library, DRS, etc.) and Treasure Cruise is just a very, very, good way of doing it. But you're still in a format with Lion's Eye Diamond, Jace the Wallet Sculptor, etc. so it just seems a bit meh to me because it's not like, Goblin Recruiter level of power. My comparison to cards like TNN is more that it very quickly became a card that was played in a lot of decks but people have adapted and I think with time the same could have happened with Treasure Cruise with time (especially given Legacy's card pool). Maybe I'm wrong and Treasure Cruise really is busted, but the speed at which the ban was issued makes me uncomfortable. (It took longer for Skullclamp to get banned from Extended than it has Treasure Cruise to get banned for example.) On January 22 2015 07:26 mavignon wrote: From what I have understood it's more "Pod > every other creature deck" that is a problem to Wizards. Sure, and I understand that reasoning. I'm more concerned with the overall direction of Modern here though. I don't think Pod leaving suddenly means other creature decks are suddenly going to become Tier 1, because there's a lot more than just Pod holding them back. If you're playing Aggro, Affinity is still the benchmark to beat. If you're playing midrange, you need to differentiate yourself from BGx Rock (and maybe TarmoTwin?). If you're doing something gimmicky there's Boggles. Any creature deck that's going to try and replace Pod needs to do something better than what those decks do, and at least for now I can't think of any that can. If the goal of the Pod ban is to increase diversity, I can't see how it will actually get the job done since most decks are just worse versions of those ones listed above. I'm very willing to be proven wrong though (maybe there's something good in DTK!). | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On January 22 2015 04:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I'm just going to quickly explain to you why a pod ban was not necessary. MTG modern is much like BW T > Z > P > T but much more relevant. Pod > Any other Value deck like Delver > Combo decks (Tron, Twin) > Pod TC, fine, needed a ban, blah blah. Delver decks fall out of favor. Oh, look, what's the decks that they countered the most? Combo decks. Oh look, what deck do those newly rising combo decks beat the best? Pod. So with a ban to TC, Pod decks will naturally get weaker as they have less value decks to prey on. Pod decks were so popular BECAUSE of their amazing winrate and matchup vs the delver decks. People played Pod to COUNTER delver. Sure, Pod still has good matchups in pretty much every other M/U, but they still crumble to Tron and have a hard time vs Twin. Wizards needed to look more at a bigger picture instead of just saying "oh, pod won the last X GPs, needs ban". top 8s did not show 50% or more pod decks. in fact, i think they only showed less than 30%. They should look at what happens when they only ban/unban one card. TC? ok, what happens. if they still need to tweak, and if pod was still too strong after speculating a TC ban, then fine, ban pod (im talking about in the same banning, not wait another 2 months to make another ban). There have been talks and complaints about Pod needing to be banned for like a year and a half. Pod is the most consistent and powerful deck in Modern. It didnt hold down delver ir held down every other Blue based deck not named Delver. It also oppressed every other creature based deck in the format. How many BG/x lists did you see recently? not as many as pod since Siege Rhino was printed. UWR control or even midrange? Barely even represented. Tron and Amulet combo showed up because they prey on decks like Pod and amulet combo isnt even consistent. Plus I have zero idea how you can say Pod doesnt have a good match up vs control decks. When you have basically an at will access to your bullets like Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Linvala that's a hard argument to make. Plus the lists were playing some number of abrupt decay and path to exile main deck and neither are noninteractive cards in the twin match up and have some utility in the storm match up. I personally felt they could have left the format alone completely and been fine as well. TC and DTT are a good counter to Pod in an advantage sense but removing one leads to a complete lopsided approach to the other so I also feel this was a safe route to go. I also feel BBE is still too strong for this format and if Cruise is too good than so is AV. | ||
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Ghostpvp
United States462 Posts
My comparison to cards like TNN is more that it very quickly became a card that was played in a lot of decks but people have adapted and I think with time the same could have happened with Treasure Cruise with time (especially given Legacy's card pool). Maybe I'm wrong and Treasure Cruise really is busted, but the speed at which the ban was issued makes me uncomfortable. (It took longer for Skullclamp to get banned from Extended than it has Treasure Cruise to get banned for example.) TNN is a creature with a 3/1 body for 3 mana with no immediate relevant text. Of course a format like legacy will adapt. In fact TNN's power level might just be the most overrated thing that has come about in legacy recently. When you print a card that more than not effectively reads U - Draw 3 cards its going to be a dominant strategy. And cruise was certainly the top strategy in legacy for last 2-3 months (not even just U/R delver). The thing got restricted in vintage ffs and it was/is busted in that format too. Whats most likely going to happen is the status quo returns to RUG delver decks and the 'glorious' upswing (again) of cards like wasteland/stifle and miracles rising back to the 'top', heh. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
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Lysteria
France2280 Posts
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