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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:00 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 08:57 Whole wrote:On January 15 2014 07:41 MoonBear wrote:
Hm. Flame-wreath Phoenix might have applications in Modern Jund Mirrors? Evasion and being able to dodge Lightning Bolt no matter what is pretty good. People are saying that you can Lightning Bolt it in response to the tribute trigger. Is this true? Nope, I asked my question earlier for that intended purpose. Tribute decision is made I assume is made before the creature ever enters the battlefield, so the Phoenix would hit the field as a 5/5 if the Tribute was paid and thus giving no opportunity for the Bolt to kill it. I am sure the judges and pseudo-judges (not mocking you guys) can explain it better than me.
The wording "as X enters the battlefield" indicates that this is a replacement effect and not an ETB trigger like you would have for, say, Primeval Titan which uses a "when X enters the battlefield". This is explicitly defined in Rule 614.1c which states that:
614.1c. Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
Because it is a replacement effect, it occurs the same time as the permanent enters the battlefield and therefore cannot be responded to.
An example of an existing card which follows this is Adaptive Automaton. For the record, this is the Gather link. Note that in the rulings section it specifically states:
The choice of creature type is made as Adaptive Automaton enters the battlefield. Players can't respond to this choice. The bonus starts applying immediately.
This confirms that replacement effects when a permanent enters the battlefield cannot be responded to.
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Now the rulings hard question, which is affected by cards like Torpor Orb? :D
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 15 2014 10:22 Judicator wrote:
Now the rulings hard question, which is affected by cards like Torpor Orb? :D
This is actually surprisingly easy to answer. Part 112.3 of the Comprehensive Rules state that:
112.3c Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as "[Trigger condition], [effect]," and begin with the word "when," "whenever," or "at." Whenever the trigger event occurs, the ability is put on the stack the next time a player would receive priority and stays there until it's countered, it resolves, or it otherwise leaves the stack. See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities."
112.3d Static abilities are written as statements. They're simply true. Static abilities create continuous effects which are active while the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield and has the ability, or while the object with the ability is in the appropriate zone. See rule 604, "Handling Static Abilities."
Torpor Orb only looks at triggered abilities so the card must have a word such as "when" or "at" in it. This means a card like Primeval Titan will not activate. However, a card like Adaptive Automaton (which we know has a replacement effect) has a static ability and therefore is not counted.
This is confirmed in the rulings section of Torpor Orb's Gather Page which specifically states:
6/1/2011 Abilities that create replacement effects, such as a permanent entering the battlefield tapped or with counters on it, are unaffected.
6/1/2011 Abilities that apply "as [this creature] enters the battlefield," such as choosing a creature to copy with Clone, are unaffected.
EDIT: Amusingly this means that in Jund Mirror matches the Phoenix won't end up eating hate from Torpor Orb which might also be in the sideboard to beat Pod or Splinter Twin decks.
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On January 15 2014 01:50 deth2munkies wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but after you pay the tribute, it dies to Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, Hero's Downfall, AND Supreme Verdict.. If it cost 3 it'd be a lot better because you'd either cost them effectively their whole turn dealing with it or get in a bunch of damage. Instead, it comes out to where, even if you're on the play, they verdict next turn and it does nothing, or they Doom Blade and play a 2 CMC spell. The only thing that doesn't trade mana efficiently is Downfall in that situation.
If it cost 3 and they were relying on verdict, you'd get in at least 4 damage and get it back after the verdict, or 5 damage and that's probably good enough for a 4 mana spell.
Tribute is awesome in draft, and I think it's good enough to cause a shift from aggro to midrange, but it won't be awesome.
I understand your point, I said almost the same thing above. But there's no way this card could ever cost 3. Jenara is the only 3/3 flyer that doesn't have a drawback that I can think of (Emancipation Angel?) 3/3 flying haste for 3? God that'd be so powerful.
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![[image loading]](http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/fanaticofxenagos.jpg)
Could you choose not to pay tribute, then use Lightning Bolt in response to the ETB effect?
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United States24757 Posts
I don't see how you could lightning bolt it in response to the ETB effect since the creature can't be targeted until the ETB resolves, and the lightening bolt would resolve first.
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On January 15 2014 13:22 Whole wrote:Could you choose not to pay tribute, then use Lightning Bolt in response to the ETB effect?
That's a good card for aggro decks. There's no enter the battlefield effect, EtB effects happen after the card enters field of play, Tribute does not happen after the card enters play.
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On January 15 2014 09:06 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 08:33 Cel.erity wrote:On January 15 2014 05:00 WindWolf wrote:On January 15 2014 04:58 Cel.erity wrote:On January 15 2014 04:52 WindWolf wrote:
So I'm going to a Scars of Mirrodin draft and since I know nothing about that set, what should I expect.
What cards are must-picks? Ummm...in my opinion Scars block is the worst limited set in Magic history, at least since Tempest. Nobody that I know would ever willingly do a throwback draft of it. I assume you're drafting with the full block and opening NPH first? Infect is pretty strong, but in a throwback draft, you can expect people to force gimmick strategies pretty aggressively, so if I were you I'd just try to draft strong U/B or U/G value cards and removal. The aggro decks like white weenie and metalcraft are difficult to draft if you don't know the format, because many of the good cards look very bad, and vice versa. Just Scars or mirrodin, not the whole block (at least, when I talked to my friends who's working at my LGS) In that case, it's undoubtedly the worst limited format ever. Just don't play. Seriously. The whole format is just broken infect cards and silly bombs. It's the format where you can attack multiple times with Wurmcoil Engine and still lose to a goddamned Plague Stinger.
Don't mock plague stinker!
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On January 15 2014 14:06 micronesia wrote:
I don't see how you could lightning bolt it in response to the ETB effect since the creature can't be targeted until the ETB resolves, and the lightening bolt would resolve first.
ETB does not resolve until the stack is allowed to clear.
If tribute was ETB then the creature would enter play and trigger the tribute mechanic, during that trigger the opponent could respond with a spell or ability, such as lightning bolt.
"As it enters the battlefield" abilities work differently wherein decisions are made before the creature enters the battlefield. The most important aspect being that without triggered effect (such as ETB) then there is never a moment the non-turn player can respond to.
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On January 15 2014 08:33 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 05:00 WindWolf wrote:On January 15 2014 04:58 Cel.erity wrote:On January 15 2014 04:52 WindWolf wrote:
So I'm going to a Scars of Mirrodin draft and since I know nothing about that set, what should I expect.
What cards are must-picks? Ummm...in my opinion Scars block is the worst limited set in Magic history, at least since Tempest. Nobody that I know would ever willingly do a throwback draft of it. I assume you're drafting with the full block and opening NPH first? Infect is pretty strong, but in a throwback draft, you can expect people to force gimmick strategies pretty aggressively, so if I were you I'd just try to draft strong U/B or U/G value cards and removal. The aggro decks like white weenie and metalcraft are difficult to draft if you don't know the format, because many of the good cards look very bad, and vice versa. Just Scars or mirrodin, not the whole block (at least, when I talked to my friends who's working at my LGS) In that case, it's undoubtedly the worst limited format ever. Just don't play. Seriously. The whole format is just broken infect cards and silly bombs.
Well, but I think I'll be going anyway. Will have an exam that day, and will most likely spend the weekend to fix the last things for a hand-in and I need to think of something else that isn't studies
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On January 15 2014 20:49 FSKi wrote:
I haven't played Magic seriously for about five or six years, but a buddy of mine has been bugging me a lot to play with him on MTGO so I picked it up. I'm pretty sure the terminology for the formats has changed since I played, and I'm still a bit confused on what exactly the new formats are compared to their old counterparts. Also, if I'm trying to play in online dailies and sit-n-gos, would standard be the best choice?
Formats are the same, except extended basically doesn't exist anymore and has been more or less replaced by modern. The main difference between the two is that ext was a rotating format while modern isn't and can basically be described as everything that has the new card frame, so 8th an up.
Standard is the most played format on modo so it definitely is a good choice to play dailys and 8 mans, but it requires a good up-front investment if you're starting from scratch, but if money isnt an issue go for it! You could also look into the more "casual " formats like pauper and grind those events for tickets, depending on how fun that sounds to you.
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lol are you guys serious about Fanatic of Xenagos? This is like classic overthinking something that's relatively simple. RTFC.
Tribute is a replacement effect. There is no point before you have to make the choice to add +1/+1 counters or not where you can Lightning Strike the Fanatic of Xenagos (Tribute part- "As ~ enters the battlefield...").
However, if you decide to not pay, Fanatic of Xenagos enters the battlefield and puts a triggered ability on the stack that will give it +1/+1 and haste till end of the turn (Trigger part- "When ~ enters the battlefield). This is a separate effect from tribute and CAN be responded to. In fact, pretty much every creature with Tribute that has been revealed so far has a triggered ability that happens if you don't pay tribute; since it's a triggered ability that goes on the stack, you can respond to all of them.
So yes, you can choose to not pay tribute then bolt the Fanatic of Xenagos in response to the ETB effect. This also means the Phoenix is kinda crappy.
So upset that they replaced Monstrosity with this garbage mechanic.
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Easier answer: It's a 3/3, so you can bolt it.
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While we're talking about rules and technicalities, I wanted to know a little more about how protection plays out. For instance, Master of Waves has protection from red. If I cast Skullcrack so damage cannot be prevented this turn, can I then cast Electrickery overload to take out Master of Waves (and all other 1 toughness creatures)?
edit: nevermind, google to the rescue - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=482543
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On January 16 2014 07:55 EscPlan9 wrote:
While we're talking about rules and technicalities, I wanted to know a little more about how protection plays out. For instance, Master of Waves has protection from red. If I cast Skullcrack so damage cannot be prevented this turn, can I then cast Electrickery overload to take out Master of Waves (and all other 1 toughness creatures)?
DEBT
Damage/Equip or Enchant/Block/Target
Thats what Protection prevents.
So yes you can skullcrack + electrickery overload a master of waves.
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I'm looking to make some pseudo packs of Theros to practice sealed with. I have just a ton of random uncommons and commons hoarded from all of my drafts, and I even have enough rares (that aren't played in constructed) to make these fake packs.
But are packs totally random, or do they have some degree of spreading out the colors? Is there any method to make these fake Theros packs?
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I think the normal booster packs (non seeded) are random, so its possible that a pack may not have a color or two. All it has to satisfy is the 1 rare 3 uncommon 9/10 common maybe foil rule. I think also that there are no duplicates ever in a pack due to how they print the sheets ... so maybe not true random, but as far we are practically concerned, random.
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Also there are websites that you could practice, which might be better as the computers randomize stuff for you. http://drafts.in/ is one, but I know there's more out there.
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On January 16 2014 14:05 Whole wrote:
I'm looking to make some pseudo packs of Theros to practice sealed with. I have just a ton of random uncommons and commons hoarded from all of my drafts, and I even have enough rares (that aren't played in constructed) to make these fake packs.
But are packs totally random, or do they have some degree of spreading out the colors? Is there any method to make these fake Theros packs?
Someone asked awhile ago about making a Theros draft sim "cube". There are a few issues:
1. Separating rarity. You need to divide cards by their rarity and seed them into fake packs.
2. Separating colors. This isn't really a huge deal, but it would help your drafts go smoother if you could somehow make sure each pack has at least 1 common of each color, and 3 uncommons of different colors.
3. Having enough cards. Just for one draft, you'll need access to ~5-6 copies of every common and 2-3 copies of every uncommon just for seeding. You'll also probably only be using one copy of every rare, which means if someone opens a particular rare, they'll know nobody else at the table has it.
4. No duplicates in packs. IMO the hardest part of doing one of these, since even if you sort everything else perfectly, you'll never know if there are dupes without looking at the packs beforehand. I think it compromises the integrity of the draft too much when you can conceivably open a pack with two Wingsteed Riders or Voyaging Satyrs, the guy to your left will assume you're not in that color because he sees a common is missing.
A lot of these problems don't matter too much if you're only going to be using the packs for sealed, because a practice sealed deck doesn't need to be accurate to the format; the practice comes from building the best deck possible with the pool you receive. If building practice sealed decks is all you want, though, there are tons of web simulators for doing that.
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EPT
