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You can force U/G midrange and win. OTher than that you have to play what you're dealt
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On October 18 2013 01:47 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 01:35 woreyour wrote:On October 18 2013 01:16 Cel.erity wrote:On October 17 2013 23:42 woreyour wrote:On October 17 2013 22:09 Cel.erity wrote:On October 17 2013 18:36 woreyour wrote:On October 17 2013 02:53 MoonBear wrote:On October 16 2013 01:40 woreyour wrote:
so if this is the case then it makes it really good
so let me just make sure im doing it correctly with examples.
I have a battlewise hoplite (ready to attack), then I pop hiddenstings, targeting him to be untapped even if he is already untapped triggering his heroics making him 3/3. Encode it to him. Then probably tap opponent's blocker to make sure I can deal guaranteed damage to him.
Then it would trigger another hiddenstrings (free) which again I target another permanent and again my hoplite to untap him and trigger another heroic making him 4/4? but damage taken by opponent is only 3?
Am i correct? It is impossible for you to hit your opponent with a 4/4 Battlewise Hoplite and also tap your opponent's creature at the same time. Lemme break down how this will happen at every stage so there's no confusion. - You cast Hidden Strings. Hidden Strings is now on the stack.
- Both players are assumed to pass priority.
- Hidden Strings will now resolve. At this point you must choose targets for the spell. You target your Battlewise Hoplite and your opponent's creature. (We are going to assume your opponent's creature is a legal target, so no Shroud etc.)
- Battlewise Hoplite "sees" that you've targeted it with a spell or ability. Its Heroic ability triggers. This will be placed on the stack when a player next receives priority. However, your Hidden Strings is still resolving so it does not exist on the stack yet. Only one trigger is activated.
- We continue resolving Hidden Strings.Your Battlewise Hoplite is now untapped and your opponent's creature is now tapped.
- Now that the main text on Hidden Strings has resolved, we now have to resolve the Cipher component of the card.
- From 702.98 of the Comprehensive Rules, Cipher states that:
702.98a Cipher appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities, one that functions while the spell is on the stack and one that functions while the card with cipher is in the exile zone. "Cipher" means "If this spell is represented by a card, you may exile this card encoded on a creature you control" and "As long as this card is encoded on that creature, that creature has 'Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, you may copy this card and you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.'"
702.98b The term "encoded" describes the relationship between the card with cipher while in the exile zone and the creature chosen when the spell represented by that card resolves.
702.98c The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
- This means Cypher does NOT target. At all.
- We Encode Hidden Strings on the Battlewise Hoplite. Exile Hidden Strings.
- Hidden Strings has now finished resolving.
- The Active Player (you in this case because it is your turn) now receives Priority.
- Battlewise Hoplite's Heroic ability is placed on the stack. Remember, only 1 trigger has been activated.
- We assume both players now pass Priority.
- The trigger now resolves. Battlewise Hoplite now gains a +1/+1 counter.
- Next, you Scry 1.
- Battlewise Hoplite's Heroic trigger has now finished resolving. It is now a 3/3 creature.
- We assume there are no Blocks and no further spells cast.
- Combat Damage is now dealt. Battlewise Hoplite deals 3 combat damage to your opponent.
- The Encoded Hidden Strings on Battlewise Hoplite now triggers and is placed on the stack.
- We assume there are no other triggered abilities. Now that all triggered abilities have been placed on the stack the Active Player receives Priority.
- Resolve the encoded Hidden Strings that has been cast from exile.
- You may now tap or untap target permanent, then tap or untap another target permanent again. If you choose to target Battlewise Hoplite you'll have all those triggers again.
- Once everything has resolved, move to End of Combat Phase.
this is great!, thanks for this step by step explanation. now me and my friend could stop arguing and he can cry how OP this can be :D Again, this explanation is in no way accurate. There is a lot wrong with it. If you want to know the actual steps of how spells and triggers are placed on the stack from Heroic, refer to my earlier posts, because it's kind of annoying having to repeat myself five times answering one question. It is true that you can get a 4/4 vigilant Hoplite at the end of the day, though. And please, if you're going to answer rules questions with answers that contradict those previously given in the thread, make sure you're right, or edit your posts appropriately. It's harmful to the newer players who come across bad information and start playing incorrectly. thanks too for your input, I read your post as well but I guess his steps 1-4 are correct (again not too technical and would be glad if this gets disected if it iswrong), why? because u mentioned that right after hidden strings gets cast, you say heroics gets into the stack right after which i believe is wrong, why? because you can counter hidden strings which means in order to do that players must have the stack passing priority 1st. yes after all, i just want to make sure at the end of the day I get to have my 4/4 vigilant hopelite with 2 scrys, 3 damage and another tap and untap. I also was happy about the steps that he gave and reference as it was clear to explain to my friend and I am happy for the others to discuss it as well (gotta love 2nd opinions). The replicate one I think would not work since the 2nd and so forth instances/copies are not cast but duplicated only, the 1st I think should trigger heroics. Heroic does go on the stack on top of the spell. It's just like any other ability that triggers on a spell cast, it goes on the stack immediately when you announce Hidden Strings and choose its targets, and so it will resolve first as per LIFO (last in first out). Targets are ALWAYS chosen upon casting a spell, not upon resolving it (inb4 someone points out an exception, but I can't think of one offhand). This is basic rules stuff that you need to know. Of course you can counter Hidden Strings, but you'll be doing it after the Heroic ability has already gone on the stack.The other important thing you should remember is that spells resolve all of their text simultaneously. There is no time for stuff to go on the stack while a spell is resolving, and spells do not have multiple parts to their resolution. It's always very simply: 1. Pay the mana cost/announce targets, now you've cast the spell. 2. Stuff that triggers from casting spells/targeting stuff goes on the stack. 3. Players pass priority, the triggers resolve. 4. Players pass priority again, the spell resolves. And of course it's possible for the effects of the spell to trigger other things, but that's not happening in our example. Again: 1. You pay for Hidden Strings and announce its targets. 2. Choosing Hoplite as a target triggers Heroic, which goes on the stack above Hidden Strings itself. 3. Now you and your opponent have priority, eventually you both pass and Heroic resolves. 4. Pass again, Hidden Strings resolves. You now choose whether you want to tap or untap each of the two targets, because that's a choice, and choices are made on resolution. It's not that complicated, really. so if the heroic ability should auto trigger since it met requirements of being targeted by your spell and automatically goes to stack, would the heroic effect resolve regardless if you counter hidden strings? 3/3 hoplite regardless? Yes, triggers go off when their condition is met. For heroic, it must simply be targeted by a spell you cast. For example, if you have a champion of the parish and primeval bounty out, then cast another champion that gets countered, what happens? Both have triggers that would go off if the spell happens uninterrupted, but the difference lies in the trigger. Bounty goes off as soon as you cast the creature spell, but champion's doesnt until the resolution, and the creature actually lands.
thanks for clarifying with examples. so the term "whenever" in mtg just goes to stack as long as you "did" that triggered "whenever".
A follow up question though, if it was countered, then how come it still triggered "whenever". (this is coming from an understanding that when you counter a spell, it nullifies a spell like you never casted it/ never happened - this could be another wrong understanding of counters by me- my bad) Or because the counter spells are now instants (so they count as a spell to kill another spell) and not interrupts (a way to nullify spells)?
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United States24724 Posts
Here is how countering a spell works: I cast a spell. You then counter the spell. If I cannot somehow counter your counterspell, my original spell will not resolve. That does not change the fact that I cast the spell. Many triggered abilities trigger when a spell is cast... not when it resolves.
Suppose I had a creature in play which said "whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, gain 1 life." I then cast another creature spell, but you counter it. I don't gain life because the creature spell did not resolve, and so a new creature did not enter the battlefield.
Suppose I had a creature in play which said "whenever you cast a creature spell, gain 1 life." I then cast another creature spell, but you counter it. I still gain life because the ability triggered as soon as I cast the creature spell.
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Interrupt is an old card type/term, I think most of them have been errata-ed to be Instants. I want to say there were a few weird ones where it wasn't all of them.
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On October 22 2013 00:03 iGrok wrote:
You can force U/G midrange and win. OTher than that you have to play what you're dealt
Kind of. The deck is pretty dependent on Voyaging Satyr, and people seem to be getting wise to the fact that it's the best green common now. Nessian Asp isn't as important in U/G due to the glut of 5-drops. I'm not saying it isn't a good deck, but I don't think you can force anything successfully right now in the MtGO metagame, because there will be a lot of blank packs for most strategies.
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I played U/G mid range at one of the side events at GP Louisville. It was sealed-draft (3 of each), but lost in the first round where my games went like this: Game 1, he goes Heliod into Elspeth, Game 2, I ramp out and crush him, Game 3 I lose a game where I cast 4 Griptides and it wasn't even close. Turns out Cavern Lampard into Erbero's Emissary into that mythic gorgon is pretty damn good especially when you head fake the hell out of your opponent games 1-2 with mono-white creatures.
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I played U/B in the PTQ and it worked out. Bombs plus ways to dig for them. I will admit it's a bomb-dependent strategy, but when you open Kraken and Overlord, it gets easier.
Green is by far the best individual color though. Solid heroic creatures and lots of ways to trigger as well as much-needed ramp and decent bestow.
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Got to live the draft dream of 2-1ing with some sweet Tymaret, the Murder King + Akroan Horse/Hammer of Purphorous tech 
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On October 22 2013 00:41 Judicator wrote:
Interrupt is an old card type/term, I think most of them have been errata-ed to be Instants. I want to say there were a few weird ones where it wasn't all of them.
Weren't interrupts "faster" than instants in that once an interrupt was on the board you could only cast more interrupts?
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On October 22 2013 22:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 00:41 Judicator wrote:
Interrupt is an old card type/term, I think most of them have been errata-ed to be Instants. I want to say there were a few weird ones where it wasn't all of them. Weren't interrupts "faster" than instants in that once an interrupt was on the board you could only cast more interrupts?
Yes, that's exactly right.
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Vintage becoming a thing on mtgo sounds good to me.
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I think its the only way for people play Vintage consistently.
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On October 22 2013 03:47 deth2munkies wrote:Green is by far the best individual color though. Solid heroic creatures and lots of ways to trigger as well as much-needed ramp and decent bestow.
Blue and black are better than green imo.
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On October 24 2013 06:18 MCMcEmcee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 03:47 deth2munkies wrote:Green is by far the best individual color though. Solid heroic creatures and lots of ways to trigger as well as much-needed ramp and decent bestow. Blue and black are better than green imo.
While I like blue a lot myself aswell I do think Green is the stronger color, Its creature are just a lot bigger then everyone else and all to often i find that the biggest stuff wins, esp when you go blue/green to give evasion to your big guys.
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Blue has 2 doom blades and evasion guys at common, black has Gray Merchant and removal at common. Green has Voyaging Satyr, fixing, and a bunch of roughly interchangeable 5-6 drops. I don't value the random expensive dudes very highly other than Nessian Asp. It's just too easy to outclass a random 5 drop in this format.
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I think blue is better than green, but not by that much. I thought green was the best color at first, but it seems like when 3+ people go green at the table, it loses a lot of its depth and you just end up with a lot of big vanilla guys. Blue's bad commons at least let you cobble together an aggro strategy, or support another color with something other than Nessian Coursers.
It's also worth noting that blue has the best gold uncommons in the cycle, and they tend to come very late.
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I think blue is the best support color, by far. It's just you need to get a couple of specific large creatures (the Krakens) or a very synergistic deck to actually win. Green has the best wincons and is tied for best heroic enablers with white. Sure, it might be overdrafted, but that could be said of any color, really. Green and Blue are highly valued and Black is overvalued among more casual players because of the 3 powerful devotion cards.
Frank Karsten agrees with you guys about blue though, so it might just be my preference.
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Not a fan of dedicated win conditions when there are like 3 cycles at common/uncommon that let your random 2/3 drops get bigger than the 5/6 drops while not clogging up your hand in the early turns. Also not a fan of dedicated win conditions when Wingsteed Rider is a common for whatever reason...
I could be persuaded that green is the best color in sealed.
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Hopping in the discussion : I think if you get an open draft Green isn't the strongest color, but it has the big advantage of being the deepest color. Pretty much all green commons are playable, and most of their rares are bombs.
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On October 28 2013 09:48 mr_tolkien wrote:
Hopping in the discussion : I think if you get an open draft Green isn't the strongest color, but it has the big advantage of being the deepest color. Pretty much all green commons are playable, and most of their rares are bombs.
Disagree strongly, in fact it's pretty much the opposite. Green has the highest power level if you get multiple copies of its best commons, but it is not as deep as blue, and its cards suffer from being divided into multple strategies. The G/R and G/W decks generally need vastly different cards than the G/U and G/B decks. At some point, if green is dry, you're just drafting more vanilla bodies and tricks that you don't need. It's only "deep" in terms of above-average playable filler, which is not as much of an issue in Theros draft.
Blue is the most flexible color, green is the most powerful color, black is the most synergistic color, and white is the most focused color. Red is not really a color.
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EPT
