|
On May 21 2012 10:21 Shotcoder wrote:
How do you guys have a self sustaining store if they let you keep credit laying around? I understand as a player it's awesome but as a business model it seems horrible for profit margins.
My Store doesnt let use use store credit we saved to participate in tournaments, only for cards or packs.
Someone has to win a tournament. It doesn't matter if 80% of the wins are by the same 3 guys. The only thing the store has to worry about is if that sort of environment creates too big a barrier of entry for newer and less experienced players.
|
On May 21 2012 10:21 Shotcoder wrote:
How do you guys have a self sustaining store if they let you keep credit laying around? I understand as a player it's awesome but as a business model it seems horrible for profit margins.
My Store doesnt let use use store credit we saved to participate in tournaments, only for cards or packs.
Credit doesn't trade at 1:1 for cards and it certain things cost more if you are using credit like paying for tournaments. They worked it out.
Edit:
slyboogie, that's not what Shotcoder was saying.
|
Giving out store credit assures store loyalty. In the long run, they will make more off their total customer base than they give out. If only the winner of each draft gets credit, they still made a profit off of all the other players.
Giving out store crefit is the equivalent of giving out discounts. In the end, the customers are happy they got a good deal, and the store is happy they managed to move merchandise. Its a win/win situation for them. Having a steady movement of cards is better for a store than having occasional sales on regular pricing.
@Judicator
Really? My store's credits are equal to dollar amounts. Its 1:1 for us.
|
On May 21 2012 12:58 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:21 Shotcoder wrote:
How do you guys have a self sustaining store if they let you keep credit laying around? I understand as a player it's awesome but as a business model it seems horrible for profit margins.
My Store doesnt let use use store credit we saved to participate in tournaments, only for cards or packs. Credit doesn't trade at 1:1 for cards and it certain things cost more if you are using credit like paying for tournaments. They worked it out. Edit: slyboogie, that's not what Shotcoder was saying.
Oh, is it just store credit that concerns Shotcoder? Yah, I guess so - my store does actually let us use store credit, and I suppose it kills a source of income.
|
On May 21 2012 13:01 dignity wrote:
Giving out store credit assures store loyalty. In the long run, they will make more off their total customer base than they give out. If only the winner of each draft gets credit, they still made a profit off of all the other players.
Giving out store crefit is the equivalent of giving out discounts. In the end, the customers are happy they got a good deal, and the store is happy they managed to move merchandise. Its a win/win situation for them. Having a steady movement of cards is better for a store than having occasional sales on regular pricing.
@Judicator
Really? My store's credits are equal to dollar amounts. Its 1:1 for us.
Then your store is losing money, me and few other players sit on hundreds of store credit and we can easily clean out the current stocks (legacy, standard, edh staples) if they didn't have a system in place. I am guessing your store owner never actually had an accountant crunch the numbers on those transactions and probably have other sales that's masking the effect.
As for store loyalty etc. etc. etc., players will go where ever their friends go, store credit isn't that big of a deal amongst Magic players based on my local scene.
Also, what you are saying is a false/situational premise that only really applies to stores that deal exclusively in Magic cards. Moving cards only applies if you have inventory backed up, like 1000+ cards worth, otherwise it's gonna go in the box/binder/case regardless and the store isn't technically losing anything since storing cards doesn't cost them a shit ton (overhead isn't a big deal here). If they deal primarily or their business depends primarily on Magic, then yes, it would matter, but that clearly isn't the case (if your store owner is a competent business owner) since he's letting credit go 1:1 with no restrictions (if that is the case/if I am understanding you correctly).
Now this is different from our recent private seller on TL since he's selling such an expensive collection and a large one that anyone who takes it on, needs to move it at a reasonable pace.
Edit:
Also, the reason why some stores make you spend credit on packs is because Wizards typically make them buy a certain quantity which can be troublesome if they can't sell them out. This is why you see Saviors of Kamigawa packs lying around still (which is not the same as never being able to find Worldwake/RGD packs at "normal" prices). Talk to your store owners and you'll learn a lot about running a business and interactions, it's a fun, social, and informative way of passing time in between rounds.
|
I always pick my store owners' brains on how they are profitable. Electricity, plumbing, rent, inventory. And the idea that every card in your case is worth just stuff you're waiting to move without a PO...the stuff that moves easiest also has the least stable prices. Augh!! The store offered me $25 for a Tamiyo and sold it for $30 the next day. "Was that the best markup they could get?" I asked myself. Then I played my land before combat =/
|
Well, its a matter of how much store credit they give out isn't it? If the amount they give out is exactly enough to pay for the next draft, maybe a little extra, then they really don't lose anything. Also, they don't primarily sell magic so that might be another thing. Another store I know also doesn't primarily sell magic, and they do insane deals all the time (stuff like free standard tournaments with boxes of packs as prizes).
Another reason might be because the store is owned by an old guy who I think just runs the hobby store as a hobby and is passing the time.
|
Casuals fund most stores more then competitive players. Casuals treat it like a hobby that requires investment proportional to how much they like the game. Hardcore players treat it like a job that usually doesn't involve spending too much, and at a certain point will try to monetize.
Your store owner seems like a casual, so you are right, it is a hobby for him. For a store where they want to make a reasonable profit, they will not let you get 1:1 credit. Next time you see him, you should thank him for being that kind of genuine person. Owning a store is tasking regardless of how much money you earn.
I prefer to spend more at my local store, because the convenience is worth whatever money I'd be saving online. It's a community driven game, similar to a certain website we know of. 
By the by, you can tell which stores are hardcore by pack prices usually. My store didn't even wait for NPH to stop printing before they bumped up the price. They are happily selling at $6 a pack right now, and people eat them up.
|
Money in is money in, regardless of if it's tournament fees or card sales. Assuming the store have the same markup on everything (tournaments, sodas, cards), it doesn't matter what you spend your credit on. I don't see why this would hurt the store. At the contrary, all the successful stores I've seen have been the ones that can create a community around their store. We used to have 0$ tournaments every wednesday/friday/saturday with everyone recieving ~3.5$ in prices (and more to top 3) at the store in my last town. Since there was always people there, singles sold fast and sodas/snack bars as well. The owner made a huge amount of money. The problem with stores in my current town is that noone understands the community building aspect of owning a store and will not invest in creating a community for themselves to profit on. That's why Magic is less played and the stores less profitable.
|
On May 21 2012 17:29 Rygar wrote:
Money in is money in, regardless of if it's tournament fees or card sales. Assuming the store have the same markup on everything (tournaments, sodas, cards), it doesn't matter what you spend your credit on. I don't see why this would hurt the store. At the contrary, all the successful stores I've seen have been the ones that can create a community around their store. We used to have 0$ tournaments every wednesday/friday/saturday with everyone recieving ~3.5$ in prices (and more to top 3) at the store in my last town. Since there was always people there, singles sold fast and sodas/snack bars as well. The owner made a huge amount of money. The problem with stores in my current town is that noone understands the community building aspect of owning a store and will not invest in creating a community for themselves to profit on. That's why Magic is less played and the stores less profitable.
The part about store credit is definitely not true, go talk with your local store owner and ask what the +/- cash is on every transaction involving store credit; if they cant give you a response, then they don't have a clue (aka never actually bothered to calculate it). My guess is that they are losing money on credit only transactions and certainly losing money if the credit spender does not buy anything else.
You are also forgeting that any credit spent on singles means that actual money from someone else is not spent.
|
So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day.
+ Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB.
Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed.
|
On May 24 2012 13:54 Judicator wrote:So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day. + Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB. Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed.
Sure, Amass > Think twice, but is it > the 4th Alchemy? I don't think so, especially in a deck with Lingering Souls and Sun Titan. I'd drop Amass entirely and go 4th Alchemy and 3rd O-ring (Swords man, swords).
This is pretty much exactly the deck I'd want to run (I loved Solar Flare and wanted to cram Lingering Souls, Terminus, and Taimyo in somehow) though I have a sinking suspicion that its matchup is not quite as good as you might want against R/G aggro in particular. I'd put in a little more hate for that matchup in the sideboard over the negates. Another Revoke (also for the mono blue matchup, a deck which I played before it was cool <_<) helps with the sword problem (thought not as well as divine offering, but revoke also hits Wurmcoil better) and a 4th Day or Black Sun's Zenith over the other Negate would help.
Then again, I've been out of standard for a while, so I'm going by what I see, I don't know your local metagame or how this deck would necessarily play out, just observations.
|
On May 24 2012 13:54 Judicator wrote:So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day. + Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB. Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed.
Did all your testing show that 1 Terminus/1 Entreat was where you want to be? I think Entreat is just bad enough to be a cut and Terminus is just good enough to go 2. But I haven't tested like you have. More interested in your reasons.
|
So is blood artist + killing wave actually a thing for zombies? I was just gonna run a version similar to the one that won GP lille but blood artist seems like a tempting two drop. I have my doubts about killing wave, but it is a sweet sac engine + end game when the board is there.
|
One thing at a time....
Forbidden Alchemy has issues, Amass is better than the 4th Alchemy since Alchemy can back you into a corner at times in terms of your options. This isn't UB where I can just win with a Drownyard out and at some point, throwing away win-cons while digging for answers (or more likely lands) is going to catch up with this deck.
As for the second Revoke, that mono-Blue deck is a glorified ramp deck, not terribly worried about it, it's one of those people don't know how to play against it kind of deals.
As for the Swords issue, any kind of sorcery speed removal is not good against swords. Killing the equipped creature in combat or end phase is vastly different than killing them on your turn. Same applies to killing the equipment for more obvious reasons.
Terminus/Entreat split is where I want it because of the other cards being played. I don't want Sun Titan/Elesh/Terminus/Entreat in my starting 7, Amass alleviates this problem to some extent. Terminus is nice, but the deck that I most want to draw the Terminus against will kill you before turn 6 (RG aggro). Going up to 2 Terminus is just asking for bad openers, even if I cut a Entreat for it, namely because I can always cast Entreat for 5 to get a 4/4 flyer, while I might not always want Terminus.
Entreat is still a threatening card, it's a broken card on a mid-game Miracle, but it's still a 2 turn clock late game (which is faster than a Titan mind you).
As for RG aggro boarding, Blade Splicers beat their best 2 drop, and Lingering can buy me enough time.
|
On May 24 2012 13:54 Judicator wrote:So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day. + Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB. Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed.
Looks like you're doing a bit too much imo.
What is the point of sun titan/blade splicer/image? Those are all great cards, but really belong in a focused blink deck with Venser, Solemn and Stonehorn Dignitary. Esper control is really powerful right now, and you don't even need very many creatures. If you run 4 mainboard day of judgement, 4 lingering souls, and heavier on your planeswalkers (2 of Sorin, Gideon, Tamiyo) you can set up a very powerful control game (Tamiyo and Gideon Jura together, if not dealt with in one turn will often win you a game)
Amass the components frankly imo is not as good as think twice, for two reasons.
1. It only plays once
2. It's sorcery speed
If you're looking for esper control, you really don't want to be playing anything that costs < 3 mana at sorcery speed, other than lingering souls to stabilize against a potential turn 4 (while on the draw) attack for the kill. Forbidden Alchemy/think twice are significantly better together and synergize well, because both can be played at instant speed for the same mana and can are two spells for the cost of one card (do I just want card advantage? flashback think twice. Do I need to find my DoJ immediately or I lose? Forbidden alchemy) Amass the Components doesn't serve either of those two purposes.
Esper control really doesn't need much to win the game. Entreat the Angels and 1 main board Karn is more than enough.
How heavy control are you wanting to go? No mana leak main seems kind of weak
|
On May 25 2012 02:47 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 13:54 Judicator wrote:So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day. + Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB. Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed. Looks like you're doing a bit too much imo. What is the point of sun titan/blade splicer/image? Those are all great cards, but really belong in a focused blink deck with Venser, Solemn and Stonehorn Dignitary. Esper control is really powerful right now, and you don't even need very many creatures. If you run 4 mainboard day of judgement, 4 lingering souls, and heavier on your planeswalkers (2 of Sorin, Gideon, Tamiyo) you can set up a very powerful control game (Tamiyo and Gideon Jura together, if not dealt with in one turn will often win you a game) Amass the components frankly imo is not as good as think twice, for two reasons. 1. It only plays once 2. It's sorcery speed If you're looking for esper control, you really don't want to be playing anything that costs < 3 mana at sorcery speed, other than lingering souls to stabilize against a potential turn 4 (while on the draw) attack for the kill. Forbidden Alchemy/think twice are significantly better together and synergize well, because both can be played at instant speed for the same mana and can are two spells for the cost of one card (do I just want card advantage? flashback think twice. Do I need to find my DoJ immediately or I lose? Forbidden alchemy) Amass the Components doesn't serve either of those two purposes. Esper control really doesn't need much to win the game. Entreat the Angels and 1 main board Karn is more than enough. How heavy control are you wanting to go? No mana leak main seems kind of weak
Please don't post with preconcieved notions of what Esper control should be playing. I have already tried them. Lingering Souls isn't stablizing you on the draw. LSV wasn't joking when he said he lost to Sword of War and Peace, I noticed the same thing testing in every iteration of the deck that depended on Lingering Souls (read all of the Esper decks).
Amass sees more cards for less mana. Instant speed is pretty much irrelevant since there are no Mana Leaks. Most control decks are cutting Mana Leaks already. Every top control player agrees that Think Twice is a shit card that is played out of necessity more than want. Amass fixes my hand because...you always have dead cards in any given match up, especially game 1.
As for synergy...you aren't realizing the reality of the situation for control players. More often than not in today's environment, you don't have a chance to Flashback Think Twice. Nor do you have a chance of casting Alchemy on 3 on the draw. Nor are you guaranteed to dump the Think Twice into the graveyard off of Alchemy. Drawing Think Twice with 5+ lands is infinitely worse than Amass. Did I mention that putting a dead card on the bottom of your library is pretty good? Against most decks, I am tapping out on 4 anyways to Day or 4 to cast a Sorin or 4 with Pristine to lay a Tamiyo or Gideon or Batterskull. So again where and when am I going to play Mana Leak? Better yet, at what point does Mana Leak become useless? Better yet still, what cards do you suggest cutting for Mana Leak?
If you are saying Esper control deck doesn't need much to win the game, then...you haven't been following the meta. Karn isn't winning you the game. If you don't present threats, any deck running Swords can beat you cleanly with just 1 or 2 creatures while sandbagging more threats.
Look at the GP Minni top 8-ing Esper deck, do you see any of the cards that suggest Jerret's gonna sit back and just answer threats while presenting no form of pressure? He took out Think Twices for Ponders despite running a full set of Alchemys (again by your argument is anti-synergy); I tested Ponders and found them to be pretty good, but 3-4 slots for a cantrip with a significant drawback is pretty expensive. Do you see any kind of dedicated blinking engine to go along with even more Splicers/Titans/Images? How about the supposedly good Mana Leaks? FYI, most esper pilots at the GP took along a similar list, this one worked because Splicers handles a lot of archtypes by itself.
The perspective you are taking is more of a traditional control deck, of which those decks simply can not exist in the current meta. Also, please don't think you can sit back and just answer people's threats, you can not and will not survive. You can't play draw-go in this format and you certainly can't play Mana Leaks, that has already been established. You also can't rely on instant speed spells in this format as a control deck, if you aren't tapping out to threaten them, you are probably not winning.
As for trying to do too much, welcome to the new control. Your reply feels very much like you haven't tested the deck or only played a particular match up.
|
On May 25 2012 03:20 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 02:47 Durp wrote:On May 24 2012 13:54 Judicator wrote:So this is what I am probably gonna end up taking to Game Day. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
// Lands
2 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [DKA] Evolving Wilds
3 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
5 [MBS] Plains (1)
3 [AVR] Island (1)
4 [ISD] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [NPH] Blade Splicer
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
1 [M12] Gideon Jura
3 [ISD] Forbidden Alchemy
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [M12] Day of Judgment
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [AVR] Terminus
1 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
2 [AVR] Amass the Components
2 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [M12] Sorin Markov
SB: 2 [M12] Celestial Purge
SB: 1 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [AVR] Devastation Tide
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [ISD] Dissipate
If anyone has suggestions, please justify your suggestions/advice, especially regarding land base since I stopped tweaking it after messing with the deck's identity so much (this is the 14th iteration according to my mws deck files). Chances are I probably have tested the card you are thinking of, but I might have easily missed something since I haven't been nearly as involved in developing this deck as I was with UB. Before anyone asks, Amass >>>>> Think Twice, even at sorcery speed. Looks like you're doing a bit too much imo. What is the point of sun titan/blade splicer/image? Those are all great cards, but really belong in a focused blink deck with Venser, Solemn and Stonehorn Dignitary. Esper control is really powerful right now, and you don't even need very many creatures. If you run 4 mainboard day of judgement, 4 lingering souls, and heavier on your planeswalkers (2 of Sorin, Gideon, Tamiyo) you can set up a very powerful control game (Tamiyo and Gideon Jura together, if not dealt with in one turn will often win you a game) Amass the components frankly imo is not as good as think twice, for two reasons. 1. It only plays once 2. It's sorcery speed If you're looking for esper control, you really don't want to be playing anything that costs < 3 mana at sorcery speed, other than lingering souls to stabilize against a potential turn 4 (while on the draw) attack for the kill. Forbidden Alchemy/think twice are significantly better together and synergize well, because both can be played at instant speed for the same mana and can are two spells for the cost of one card (do I just want card advantage? flashback think twice. Do I need to find my DoJ immediately or I lose? Forbidden alchemy) Amass the Components doesn't serve either of those two purposes. Esper control really doesn't need much to win the game. Entreat the Angels and 1 main board Karn is more than enough. How heavy control are you wanting to go? No mana leak main seems kind of weak Please don't post with preconcieved notions of what Esper control should be playing. I have already tried them. Lingering Souls isn't stablizing you on the draw. LSV wasn't joking when he said he lost to Sword of War and Peace, I noticed the same thing testing in every iteration of the deck that depended on Lingering Souls (read all of the Esper decks). Amass sees more cards for less mana. Instant speed is pretty much irrelevant since there are no Mana Leaks. Most control decks are cutting Mana Leaks already. Every top control player agrees that Think Twice is a shit card that is played out of necessity more than want. Amass fixes my hand because...you always have dead cards in any given match up, especially game 1. As for synergy...you aren't realizing the reality of the situation for control players. More often than not in today's environment, you don't have a chance to Flashback Think Twice. Nor do you have a chance of casting Alchemy on 3 on the draw. Nor are you guaranteed to dump the Think Twice into the graveyard off of Alchemy. Drawing Think Twice with 5+ lands is infinitely worse than Amass. Did I mention that putting a dead card on the bottom of your library is pretty good? Against most decks, I am tapping out on 4 anyways to Day or 4 to cast a Sorin or 4 with Pristine to lay a Tamiyo or Gideon or Batterskull. So again where and when am I going to play Mana Leak? Better yet, at what point does Mana Leak become useless? Better yet still, what cards do you suggest cutting for Mana Leak? If you are saying Esper control deck doesn't need much to win the game, then...you haven't been following the meta. Karn isn't winning you the game. If you don't present threats, any deck running Swords can beat you cleanly with just 1 or 2 creatures while sandbagging more threats. Look at the GP Minni top 8-ing Esper deck, do you see any of the cards that suggest Jerret's gonna sit back and just answer threats while presenting no form of pressure? He took out Think Twices for Ponders despite running a full set of Alchemys (again by your argument is anti-synergy); I tested Ponders and found them to be pretty good, but 3-4 slots for a cantrip with a significant drawback is pretty expensive. Do you see any kind of dedicated blinking engine to go along with even more Splicers/Titans/Images? How about the supposedly good Mana Leaks? FYI, most esper pilots at the GP took along a similar list, this one worked because Splicers handles a lot of archtypes by itself. The perspective you are taking is more of a traditional control deck, of which those decks simply can not exist in the current meta. Also, please don't think you can sit back and just answer people's threats, you can not and will not survive. You can't play draw-go in this format and you certainly can't play Mana Leaks, that has already been established. You also can't rely on instant speed spells in this format as a control deck, if you aren't tapping out to threaten them, you are probably not winning. As for trying to do too much, welcome to the new control. Your reply feels very much like you haven't tested the deck or only played a particular match up.
I agree with pretty much everything you said to counter my post. I have not played any competitive games in a bit over a week, and though I've been running an esper super friends which has done pretty well the last few games I've attended, all your arguments are valid and it seems my knowledge on this is dated.
I apologize for my incorrect questions/criticisms. (though I do appreciate your counter arguments, they're teaching me some problems my deck will have)
In any case, here's the esper super friends I've been running, if it's dated, any thoughts?
+ Show Spoiler +Lands: 26 3x Plains 2x Island 4x Swamp 3x Evolving Wilds 4x Isolated Chapel 3x Drowned Catacombs 3x Glacial Fortress 4x Seachrome Coast Creatures: 1 1x Grave Titan + Show Spoiler +Playtested around with Consecrated Sphinx and Elesh Norn, Grave Titan seemed to work best Planeswalkers: 9 1x Karn Liberated 2x Sorin Lord of Innistrad 2x Gideon Jura 2x Tamiyo the Moon Sage 2x Liliana of the Veil Artifacts: 1 1x Batterskull Enchantments: 2 2x Curse of Death's Hold Sorceries: 10 2x Entreat the Angels 4x Lingering Souls 3x Day of Judgement 1x Terminus Instants: 11 1x Tragic Slip 1x Doom Blade 1x Go for the Throat 1x Negate 3x Think Twice 2x Mana Leak 2x Forbidden Alchemy Sideboard: 15 2x Timely Reinforcements 3x Geist of Saint Traft 1x Batterskull 2x Celestial Purge 2x Oblivion Ring 1x Volition Reins 1x Curse of Death's Hold 1x Tragic Slip 2x Ratchet Bomb
edit; as for the blink deck, that's the home brew I'm currently trying to work out. I feel like that has some pretty ridiculous potential with Venser/Stonehorn/Restoration Angel. Stacking stonehorn seems really powerful, and Thalia really shits on people if you get the play turn 1. I don't really know if it's worth playing though, was going to take to FNM tomorrow to find out
|
Grave Titan is the best if you aren't expecting Images or Metamorphs (both of which can be brought in against you post-board). Elesh is better if you are running any token makers, 1/1s versus 3/3s are a big deal. There is no need to play Curse of Death's Hold, Delver is no longer a deck and Moorland Haunt hasn't seen play in weeks. As for your PWs breakdown, that changes depending on your expected field. Lilys are good against Ramp variants, Gideon for aggro/midrange, Tamiyo for ramp/control, Sorin for midrange/aggro.
Also, that Venser deck, very weak to instant speed removal.
My guess for your deck is that if you don't draw Alchemy or Think Twice, the deck runs pretty weak.
It's dated for sure. That version is pretty weak to Swords, and pretty weak to Undying. It takes too long to get into a winning state and you really need to have a constant supply of cards to both answer and play threats. Remember you can't sit back and expect to be in a winning position. That deck can't actively do it with a creature heavy environment with Swords. Remember any aggro deck with Swords can force you into 1 for 1s, the whole premise of control decks is to get card advantage through good 1 for 1s (aka trading up) or x for 1s through Wraths. You can't comfortably do that right now.
What I mean about for 1 for 1s is that you are trading your Mana Leaks/Negates/Dissipates (2 or 3 mana spells) for larger and more important spells such as a Titan or a Sword (Mana Leak isn't worth a Sword nor is it worth a Titan).
|
On May 25 2012 04:23 Judicator wrote:
Grave Titan is the best if you aren't expecting Images or Metamorphs (both of which can be brought in against you post-board). Elesh is better if you are running any token makers, 1/1s versus 3/3s are a big deal. There is no need to play Curse of Death's Hold, Delver is no longer a deck and Moorland Haunt hasn't seen play in weeks. As for your PWs breakdown, that changes depending on your expected field. Lilys are good against Ramp variants, Gideon for aggro/midrange, Tamiyo for ramp/control, Sorin for midrange/aggro.
Also, that Venser deck, very weak to instant speed removal.
My guess for your deck is that if you don't draw Alchemy or Think Twice, the deck runs pretty weak.
It's dated for sure. That version is pretty weak to Swords, and pretty weak to Undying.
I was going to run negate in that blink deck to try to deal with spot removal. In the few test games the dignitaries/blade splicers dealt with creature aggro pretty well, and negate seemed to get the job done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
