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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 27 2012 10:12 Gann1 wrote: DA kinda sucks. I was hoping for some Vampire support for standard but all it really has is stromkirk captain Falkenrath Aristocrat is pretty good. I don't know if it's better than Koth. But she's better than Olivia for an aggressive deck. And she's more elusive than Hero. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 27 2012 11:56 slyboogie wrote: Falkenrath Aristocrat is pretty good. I don't know if it's better than Koth. But she's better than Olivia for an aggressive deck. And she's more elusive than Hero. She's better than Olivia in control match ups...that's it. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 27 2012 13:35 Judicator wrote: She's better than Olivia in control match ups...that's it. Haven't played tested either way. I don't know if "Vampires" is any kind of a deck but I can see her in there. I like Hellrider though, even if he isn't a great card. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
 Black/White tokens is not only a standard archetype, but a very good limited one now. Decklist: + Show Spoiler + 7 Swamp 10 Plains 1x Thraben Doomsayer 1x Walking Corpse 1x Moan of the Unhallowed 1x Wakedancer 1x Falkenrath Noble 1x Fiend Hunter 1x Moment of Heroism 2x Dead Weight 1x Sightless Ghoul (worst card in the deck) 1x Elguad Inquisitor 1x Lingering Souls (best card in the deck) 1x Curse of Death's Hold 1x Bonds of Faith 1x Increasing Ambition 1x Selfless Cathar 1x Avacyn's Collar 1x Villiage Bell-Ringer 1x Undying Evil (underrated) 1x Smite the Monsterous 1x Cloistered Youth 1x Thraben Sentry 1x Loyal Cathar Only dropped 1 game and only had 2 close ones that both were saved by Undying Evil (one time on Falkenrath Noble, who won me the game by letting me throw my zombie tokens and loyal cathar at him through his creatures; and the other on a Fiend Hunter who was holding a Bloodline Keeper). The game I dropped involved me having a billion tokens and him having a Bloodline Keeper and Huntmaster in play. I Fiend Hunter'd the Huntmaster (the bloodline keeper had Bonds* on it already) and got him down to 4 life before he was able to flashback Increasing Ambition for Rolling Tremblor (to kill off most of my tokens) and the 1 damage imp to finish off my Fiend Hunter. The other 2 games I curved out and had removal for all of his early game threats plus the hunter every time he drew bloodline keeper. *I am aware of just how bad this is, but it came down to a point where I thought I could kill him with my tokens if he had one less blocker, and I almost did till he Increasing Ambitioned for Huntmaster and destroyed me. | ||
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
Traded the Foil Sorin for a regular one + a Garruk Relentless. Aw boy good night. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 29 2012 09:11 Cixah wrote: I opened the nut high with Foil Sorin + Charm + Flayer with an Unburial Rites and 5 undying creatures. x-0 35 packs ezpz. Traded the Foil Sorin for a regular one + a Garruk Relentless. Aw boy good night. You are a luckier man than I, good sir. Also, is it just me, or is mono black aggro-control a real deck? Diregraf Ghoul + Gravecrawler + Messenger for early game beats, the latter 2 are resistant to removal, and you can further recur them lategame with Gravepurge. You have a wide variety of closers in Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Titan, Sheoldred, Massacre Wurm, new Mikaeus, etc. Tragic Slip, Victim of Night, Doom Blade, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Black Sun's Zenith, and Zombie Apocalypse all double as removal depending on the situation. Also Curse of Death's Hold. You can go for alternate win conditions with Lashwrithe and Inkmoth/Crusader if you want to. Black seems just so flexible now I can't wait to make a straight up mono deck. While I wait for the trades and costs to go down, I'll just be playing my U/G turbofog mill deck. 3 fog effects in standard, Increasing Confusion, Thought Scour, Dream Twist, Rites of Flourishing, Chill of Forboding, and Undead Alchemist. Seems fun...not good, not dominant, but fun. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 29 2012 13:02 Judicator wrote: You play monoblack and you can go scoop to Purge and O-ring. Nobody runs purge and if they want to spend their turns playing 4 O-rings be my guest, you have a much larger threatbase. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Also, you are doing what people have been doing since Coffers rotated...mB isn't going to be a viable deck. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
This also means that if you want to play control, you have to put in the time to read the meta and figure out the correct lines of play in every matchup. If the opponent curves out against UB(w), the only card that needs to be handled is the T2 Honor and the possible turn 4/5 PW/Angelic Destiny you can stabilize. Think about it, assuming you curve out like you described and the Honor is countered: Turn 2: UB(w) life at 19 Turn 3: 18, Crusader Turn 4: 13, with mana up, can cast a 2cc card and have leak or Snapcaster-Leak Turn 5: 8, with mana up, can cast a 3cc card and have leak Turn 6: 3 UB(w) can play BSZ at 2 with leak back up So when does Humans play something worthwhile that actually finishes that 3 life? Also, there won't be a supporting color. BBB is prohibitive in standard. Against Delver you just scoop to Vapor Snag. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
But that stuff is good to know  are you putting any DA cards in UBw? | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 29 2012 14:33 bumatlarge wrote: UB is not mono black zombies? I never mentioned UB... assuming mono-black is an aggressive zombie deck that curves out at 4 with obliterator? But that stuff is good to know are you putting any DA cards in UBw?mB Zombies is just as miserable since you don't have Crusader, Haunt or anthems...and there are plenty of dead draws. Messenger means you lose against all the other aggro decks. I am just using Wilds and Tragic Slip since it's Slip >= Wound >>> Wring Flesh. | ||
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 30 2012 01:45 Judicator wrote: The problem is that the board wipe of choice right now is BSZ not Day... Fine, tap out to BSZ my creatures, then Nihil Spellbomb my graveyard. In response Gravepurge. It means you're drawing live every single turn after that, so you can power straight through counterspells. Not to mention it's great for lategame. It always assures that you're not going to run out of threats, and while I wouldn't put 4 in a main deck, it's definitely a sideboard card against control. Not to mention it's an INSTANT, so you can get around any form of graveyard hate. It destroys Delver with much better removal options that allow it to quickly stabilize and go on the offensive, it destroys tokens by having a fast start into a Curse of Death's Hold, it can abuse Undying and kill Planeswalkers with Hex Parasite. I see it having problems with Shrine of Burning Rage (on a slow draw) or a deck that devotes a large amount of the sideboard to hate (but what deck DOESN'T have that problem), but it rips through all the decks in the current meta and several of the projected decks. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
First of all, what is your better removal options? Keep in mind you're playing against unblockables and hexproofs with Pike... | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
Don't you lose access to Elesh Norn and Gideon? I understand with Undying that Day is significantly worse than BSZ but Idk if losing Gideon and norn are necessarily worth the loss. Access to more drownyards has to be extremely relevant too. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 30 2012 14:47 Judicator wrote: Lol...you really don't understand do you? I don't need to tap out for BSZ...and Spellbomb comes down at one...it's also incredibly silly to think the control player will just snap counter everything...like I already said, proper lines of play will need be figured out. When I started DKA testing on MWS, I was losing against the decks you are describing. Then I realized what should and shouldn't be countered and the match up was really free for UB control. First of all, what is your better removal options? Keep in mind you're playing against unblockables and hexproofs with Pike... So you're outplaying your opponents? People haven't found a decent list yet? Big deal, the set has been spoiled for just over a week. You can theorycraft all you want, but it seems very much like a viable archetype with tweaking, ruling it out offhand this quickly is just fucking ignorant. Heavy Black gives you Victim of Night and Geth's Verdict consistently on turn 2 as well as Liliana or tribute (maybe). It's possible you'd want to run Despise or Distress (and pray for Duress or Inquisition coming back in M13). Spellbomb may come down at 1, but my point is that Gravepurge can be used in response to spellbomb whenever you want to safeguard anything that needs safeguarding. It obviously depends on the gamestate. I'm not convinced UB can put together any sort of winning game plan against this deck, especially with Gravepurge in the mix to counter the Drownyard plan. Any finisher is going to eat instant removal and if they let the 2/1 and 2/2s live for too long, they WILL still die. I'd fear UW control more than anything with this deck, since they have access to WSZ (meaning I have to keep BSZ in against them which is dead 90% of the time) and Celestial Purge/O-ring. Lashwrithe/Nexus seems a good plan against them. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
I am not ruling out this quickly, I have about 10 games against various Black lists and the deck just dies post-board even if they board properly. The only match that I have dropped is on a mull to 4 on game 1 and stuck on 4 lands with 3 Curses in hand in game 2 with him going running Lilys on turns 3 and 4. Both games went to 10 turns+ so that tells you how easily tempo-ed out the deck goes. Also, Dissipate really destroys the deck and you can't exactly play around it either. Grave Purge is a complete joke and does scoop to Spellbomb. You can hold it all you want, I am not wasting Spellbomb activations on a single Undying and Grave Purging in response to multiple Undying creatures is thanks for tempo. If that deck gets too prevalent, Cage/Extraction/Spellbomb/Vat is more than enough to hose it. Cage as UB you can play no major problems. Just some advice, someone did use Gravepurge on me during testing, it doesn't do much outside of pretending to return credible threats at that point in the game, emphasis on pretending. Let me put it this way, UB has issues interacting with PWs. Black has even worse problems with PWs if one ever sticks for a turn. The other thing is even if you have a good match up against control (which again, you really don't especially not post-board), what's your sideboard looking like? Some discard effects, some kill spells? AKA terrible sideboard cards? Also, what do you mean outplay the opponent? You're a control player, you're suppose to outplay the opponent. You aren't nut-drawing them and beating them on turn 5 or 6. @Shotcoder I switched cause Gideon/Elesh did nothing against Delver. Curse comes down at 5. I can actually kill a Hexproof creature without having to play 3 mana edicts (which is probably the worst answer ever in a tempo match up). Don't get me wrong, I think UWb is better than UBw right now, but there is no reason for me the play white outside of O-ring. The Esper deck is just so clunky for control right now and really hard to tune with no efficient answers for Hexproof. | ||
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