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Dragon Age 2 - Page 44

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BattRoll
Profile Joined August 2010
100 Posts
March 12 2011 17:09 GMT
#861
Well I just picked this game up - although I doubt I'll get around to playing it for a while but the new combat system sounds exciting. My biggest gripe with DA:O was that the actual gameplay was very unrewarding. I felt like it was just a matter of pausing/patience/being prepared to play it on any level higher than normal. There was very little strategy involved to me so I ended up just playing through it on lower difficulty so I could just react to the realtime battles. I actually found this to be a bit more rewarding/challenging and now that they've streamlined it, it should be a lot of fun.

Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
March 12 2011 17:15 GMT
#862
On March 13 2011 01:54 DrainX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2011 01:30 eduh wrote:
people seriously need to start understanding the difference between dumbing down and fixing the standard clunky and shitty mechanics of older RPGs.

its like complaining that nowadays people play tennis with technologically enhanced racquets, instead of the old wooden ones. its just fucking dumb.
just because you are used to it, doesn't make it good.
gameplay should feel fluid and organic, if not, we might aswell just go play through a command line, thats true skill right there.
the challenge should be in the enemy and not in the way you control your char.

make no mistake, the combat in DA2 is still unnecessarily clunky as fuck. but it's still an improvement over the first one.

Chess and Go are clunky as fuck and not fluid in any way. They still both have great combat. The point of the combat isn't that it should be hard. The people who are criticizing the combat in DA2 are doing so because they want tactical and interesting combat. They don't want flashy animations, fast stabby action and button mashing. They want to position each party member manually before combat, view the combat from a perspective and control each element of the fight completely. Imagine playing the Starcraft 2 micro challenges from the perspective of one of the units you are controlling. That's how the combat in DA2 feels to people like me.

I agree with your analogy, but isnt that feeling you have served better in "first person games" like WoW or other MMORPGs? Third person RPGs should fill another role and DA2 doesnt seem to fit into that role ... and that is the reason why people are [rightly] disappointed.

Just because the technology exists to turn a chess game into "Wizards chess from Harry Potter" doesnt mean you have to do it, not every new thing is an improvement. Increasing the "action" doesnt necessarily improve the game, but sadly game designers are trying to cram as many styles into their games nowadays to market them to a borader base. Many times that screws up the game (like PvP did for WoW).

From the comments here and some videos I have decided not to buy the game ...
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
Vipsanius
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands708 Posts
March 12 2011 18:31 GMT
#863
Just finished the game, here is my opinion. Spoilers ahead!
+ Show Spoiler +

I played male Hawke, warrior, 2 hand, reaver/templar.

When reading this thread, and just starting the game, I really didn't understand all the fuss about the game. The fuss about the game, it seems, is at the end. Or the lack thereof.

Basically, up to the hole Chantry/Circle conflict, the game was pretty good, and while there are some minor things that annoyed me (Like the lack of not being able to romance your own sister, I christened my character Commodus with a reason), and the gigantic amount of enemies there was in this game (If my character were at Ostagar, I single handedly could end the blight without the help of Loghain), the game was pretty good.

The fights, while extremely boring (it's either infinite mobs, or a high dragon with infinite hp), also never ended. Like they needed to delay the ending as much as possible, which is extremely odd. I remember Golems of Amgarrak, which had very very difficult boss fights, was a lot less annoying than the fighting here. The fights in DA:O were something special, something that didn't "happen", like the shit in this game does.

My brother was "Me ogre smash human!", my sister died, and mother was, well, she suffered a fate worse than death. And the dwarves! Like they have snuffed too much lyrium dust. What madness has befallen them! The qunari were fun, and if possible I had aided them in beheading the viscount. Anders "Imma firing ma lazer" blew up the chantry, a mistake, because he should have done an aerial bombardment on the gallows.

The real bugger is the ending, or lack therof. Just when I saved the whole city, and get ready to be crowned basileus and autocrat of kirkwall, the credits start rolling. For a proper ending, there was at least a chapter necessary where I am not in the mind of Varric, and a chapter which is a real ending.

Also, what I would have done, and I could not do:
I. Behead my uncle. His betrayal was much appreciated.
II. Romance Aveline.
III. Behead all mages I saw, because let's be honest: All mages that I did grant amnesty, turned on me. The ones that did not turn on me, well, they were already dead.

When you have finished this game, you get the feeling it's rushed. And bad. They 4gated. And they forgot the warp gate research. Dragon Age: Uniden. What could have been so good has been released too early, to the ridicule and embarrasment of EA games and Bioware. And of course, to you, the guy that needed to pre order this one because the previous game was that good (I'm that guy).

Concluding: This game is a marine. Here come the banelings!

bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
March 12 2011 18:32 GMT
#864
DA2 is a good game. It just happens to be a bit less of one the da o which snowballs how bad people actually say it is. Also i find it kind of funny that people say that combat is to button mashing when da o was easily beaten on the hardest difficulty with a 2 mage+tank party and a rogue that didn't have to do anything all game. Not sure what the difficulty is when you are taunting every melee mob the ff the tank and proceeding to use 2 round full of aoe spells to kill everything. "Hard dragon fights" can you find taunt and ff if so your wizards can autoattack down the dragon. How is 6 second heal and unlimited mana pots not button mashing?

The story and quests in both are fine but honestly the combat is much lacking compared to a d and d pc game. Cuz lets be honest neither me or da has any sort of strategical combat.
Ignore my opinions I am bad
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-12 20:22:03
March 12 2011 20:21 GMT
#865
On March 13 2011 03:32 bigjenk wrote:
DA2 is a good game. It just happens to be a bit less of one the da o which snowballs how bad people actually say it is. Also i find it kind of funny that people say that combat is to button mashing when da o was easily beaten on the hardest difficulty with a 2 mage+tank party and a rogue that didn't have to do anything all game. Not sure what the difficulty is when you are taunting every melee mob the ff the tank and proceeding to use 2 round full of aoe spells to kill everything. "Hard dragon fights" can you find taunt and ff if so your wizards can autoattack down the dragon. How is 6 second heal and unlimited mana pots not button mashing?

The story and quests in both are fine but honestly the combat is much lacking compared to a d and d pc game. Cuz lets be honest neither me or da has any sort of strategical combat.


Yeah, DA2 is a "little bit" worse than DA:O, DA:O is a "little bit" worse than NWN + expansion packs (or Mass Effect) and NWN + expansion packs are a "little bit" worse than the original BG2.

Problem is, these "little bits" snowball up over the course of bioware's existence and while BG2 was probably a 9.5 (ignoring graphics), by the time we get to DA2, it's probably a 6.5/10 at best. Dumb down dialogue a "little bit", then combat, then character development options and you end up with a Diablo 2 with fancy 3d graphics and 3 boring dialogue choices which all lead to combat, but you can't actually initiate combat with neutral characters, so it happens in specially predetermined places or instances if you will.

Basically DA2 is a slice of a mediocre MMO, with questing and pointless wandering around and amassing character gear for a cliffhanger ending (read - lazy developer ending).
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-12 21:29:48
March 12 2011 21:29 GMT
#866
Time to play it on nightmare and pause every second.

also sadistx MMO = Massive multiplier online, mmo's are social which is why they are popular. DA is not one of those. And all questing games are pointless wondering around games for the most part to get gear.
lynx.oblige
Profile Joined August 2009
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
March 12 2011 22:39 GMT
#867
Nightmare is fantastic with the new battle system. There are some gratifyingly difficult reinforcement fights - probably more so since I'm not done with the game yet.
Everyone needs a nemesis.
Nokarot
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1410 Posts
March 13 2011 00:58 GMT
#868
I played it, I beat it, I had fun. I understand that lots of people are upset because its been somewhat simplified (or more harshly put, "dumbed down") than its predecessor, but I felt that it was a great game nonetheless.

I hate inventory juggling so I welcomed the simplistic system for that. In an ideal world, I would love to have different origins to select from with unique male/female voice actors for each, but that is ridiculous to expect- therefore, I am plenty happy with having a Hawke with voice actors rather than 6 origins without voices. One thing I wish they had added was the "interupt-conversation" system that was in ME2, but not having it didn't take away from the fun. The combat is basically just like what it was in DAO and lots of MMOs out there- have a skill bar on the bottom, have hit point bars, and just hit buttons to do shit, while pausing to map out strategies. I wish I could zoom out as much as I did in DAO, but that's about it.

Also, elves look fucking ridiculous. That is one of the things I hated the most, if anything. Merril any female elves with hair covering their ears are the only elves that look somewhat in proportion.

Now for spoilers on things I disliked.

+ Show Spoiler +
I'm disappointed that there is only 1 ending to the game, no matter what you do. My friends took the mages' side while I took the templars side- we discussed what happened and it turns out it was practically the exact same thing, in just a slightly different order. The post-game sequence was the same, too, except for it mentioning who you had romanced. I was going to start a second playthrough with a mage (Figuring that, as a warrior, I had the "Bethany story" and a mage would get the "Carver / You're the Apostate instead of your Sister story") but if there is no grand finale that I can make different, I'll probably wait until DA3 comes out. Also, apparently i f you neglect to do Anders' quest where he sabotages the chantry, he somehow blows it up anyway. Okkkk.

The ending wasn't the only thing. The entire game was.. linear. I felt like my decisions didn't make any impact at all, and the choices I was often given were "agree with someone, agree with someone in a sarcastic way or disappointingly agree with someone" instead of wanting to shit down their throat and kill them. I mean, there were certainly a few choices, don't get me wrong, but most of them seemed to only take place in the side quests. When it came to the main story, it felt like my destiny was pretty sealed. This isn't to say that I didn't have fun. I did, but it has little-to-no re-playability, in my mind at least.

One of my major issues with the game is that, if you do every single sidequest (which no part of the game really encourages you away from- in fact, considering you would lose the ability to do those quests, you were encouraged to stay) you won't know anything about the main plot until ~15 hours in to the game, once you complete the expedition. It was off to a pretty slow start, and even when I finished the expedition, It still took a long while to figure out what the main goal of the game was. The goal changed with every chapter, from "find money to do the expedition" to "delegate qunari vs human relations" and finally "help the mages or the templars", but none of them seemed to really go together too much.

I played up until the end of the expedition on Nightmare, and then I met the big rock dude with 2 potions in my belt. I had a healing Anders with me, but I was still in a tough spot. I decided to turn it down to Hard when I realized that fight was literally impossible at that point, only to find that it became ridiculously easy. Friendly fire turned off, he seemed to die 4 times as fast and deal half as much damage. I'm just pulling these numbers out of my ass, but still. I didn't use a single potion. After I took him down, I switched back to nightmare for about 3/4 of Chapter 2, but eventually got tired of the AI Fenris instagibbing my tankHawke with mighty blow AOE and losing battles out of sheer hard-to-control friendly fire. So, I played the rest of the game on Hard, which was just.. easy, for me anyway.


Despite all that, imo it was an awesome game and I loved it. No game is without its problems, or without its "I wish it had ___"s. For the game I was given, I enjoyed it. For the non-existent game of my dreams, it certainly wasn't it.
beep beep boop
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-13 01:19:25
March 13 2011 01:01 GMT
#869
On March 13 2011 06:29 semantics wrote:
And all questing games are pointless wondering around games for the most part to get gear.

You can also say that all games are pointless because they are a waste of time too lol.

Or maybe some games are less pointless because they have better writing ? Because they are more challenging ? More beautiful ? More interesting ? etc...

Let's say we are comparing questing in Planescape and Dungeon Siege which one is more pointless ? Of course you don't need to answer it was just an example to show that your sentence was ridiculous.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-13 01:40:21
March 13 2011 01:38 GMT
#870
I finally got to play DA2 for a while and I immediately understood where all the hate is coming from. It's just so very different from DA:O.

I don't think the combat got dumbed down at all compared to DA:O, it's pretty much the same, only quicker. However I don't think that DA:O's combat was particularly strategic, and to be honest I don't think any of the RPGs that I played (that is almost every one there was since 1994) had really deep combat. Especially on the higher difficulty it was always more about finding abusable things and abusing them to the max rather than any real tactical thinking.

The skill trees seem to be cleaner. I thought that there were just too many skills per one character in DA:O which lead to most of them not being ever used. Having to choose yet another skill that you knew you wouldn't use was getting really annoying in the end.

For those who claim that combat in DA2 is stupid hack and slash, just try playing on nightmare. It's quite challenging and rewarding, although the amount of health on the stronger enemies may seem absurd. The long cooldowns on healing abilities make microing the characters in order to distribute the damage as evenly as possible really fun.

The graphics style is also different. DA:O used lots of post-processing so everything looked smoother. DA2 is more crisp and because of this ugly parts in textures and models are easier to spot. Overall it's about the same. I like the music style, it's also more crisp and detailed.

I can't tell anything about the story or the characters so far. The only thing that I really hate is the idiotic dialog wheel. I can't imagine who in their right mind could have thought that choosing from the vague and often misleading responses is better that choosing from the literal ones. Even if they only left the icons and removed those stupid phrase summaries it would have been better. I also don't get the point of removing the overhead view.
Twitches
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada365 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-13 03:04:56
March 13 2011 03:04 GMT
#871
On March 13 2011 10:38 Random() wrote:
I also don't get the point of removing the overhead view.


They removed the overhead view because their new graphic engine couldnt deal with the type of terrain they were using. I believe they tried to use more tessellation and that was why.
Gravity is just a feeble plot.
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
March 13 2011 04:19 GMT
#872
One more thing to rant about, is how they freaking killed Blood Mages in this game in my opinion. In DA:O, it was something relatively unknown and mysterious. Jowan "dabbled" into Blood Magic to save his love in the Chantry, Blood Mages took over the tower, etc. It was major yet still unexplained and mysterious.

In DA:2, they talk about it and use it like it's going out of style or something.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
March 13 2011 04:26 GMT
#873
different place different times mannnn you just don't understand. but naw da2 feels very claustrophobic esp sense they reuse area's like it's a game from the 90's not at all grand.
proxY_
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1561 Posts
March 13 2011 05:18 GMT
#874
Most rpgs revolve around going on a journey. You're at point A and you want to be at point B. Origins did this pretty well, while you did revisit some of the areas from time to time but generally it was for sidequests and it didn't really get boring or mess with the story or anything. You also had a well defined goal the entire time which is very important.

With DA2 your quest is occuring through time, meaning you're staying in a static environment and the elements of the environment (namely the characters are changing). The story fails because the characters never really change, what changes is the understanding of their motivations and the problem that the main character focuses on each act

+ Show Spoiler +
deep roads, quanarri, mages/templars


You revisit the same areas dozens of times and this compounded by the fact that so many of the dungeons get re-used. The game just ends up feeling really stagnant and boring. The combat is a bit of a saving grace as you can mix up your strategies but I think the game fails here a bit as well. On the harder difficulties I think that the game pretty much forces you to use Avilene and Anders in your party (unless your main fulfills one of their roles). The reason being that Avilene is by far the best tank in the game and Anders is the best healer with an all heal and all revive spell (feel free to disagree). When a big draw to the games replayability is the banter that you get between party members as you're running around the field that hurts a lot imo. It also makes the fights a lot more uniform (cast haste, try to draw all the enemies to Avilene, rinse and repeat). I haven't really experimented with different compositions on nightmare but I'm somewhat doubtful they'd be as successful, certainly harder to use.
bean183
Profile Joined November 2010
United States73 Posts
March 13 2011 06:10 GMT
#875
Ughhhh, i just finished the game and that's how I'm feeling pretty much.

I played as an assassin rogue, and probably averaged on hard difficulty(wanted to try some bosses on nightmare (dat hp..) and got stuck with only Hawke in my party once and was in a warehouse so had to go casual to get out).

Talking about the story.. Spoilers!
+ Show Spoiler +
The story was ok.. After i beat it i felt exactly after i beat me2. 'that's it?' The entire game is varric telling the seeker hawkes story. Is it too much to ask for a AAA rpg that isnt going to be at the very least 3 parts. This game was either rushed terribly by EA or bioware has lost their roots. I felt like we did the most boring parts of the game/story instead of the exciting parts. We worked for a smuggler for a year.. but nothing notable happened there. Varric was more interested in telling the seeker how we managed to get that 50 gold for the deep road expedition so we could get more gold. Act 2 was the best act imo but the main plot seemed so short in that act, maybe it's just me. The end was just awful. It made basically no sense. I side with the mages, and after the first wave of templars that my group just thrashed the first enchanter decides to use blood magic turn into a big monster and attack us ..HOW ABOUT THE TEMPLARS BUDDY??? Then we kill Meredith, the rebellion begans and the games over.. It was just about to get interesting.


Some of the dialogue was terrible. Just terrible. Anders admits his love to me and i respond with "want a sandwich," or isabella does the step1 "blahblah" step 2 "????" step3 "profit" and "i like big boats and i cannot lie". This seems nitpicky as i write this, but it bothered me. The worst part is the actual choices on the dialogue wheel are sometimes not even close to what Hawke actually says... why not?

The combat was different, but wasn't terrible. If i was on a console i could imagine not finishing it due to button mashing. . The reinforcement system was ok... but not for every single damn battle, i had to kill too many scrubs. There are obviously other problems (reuse the same cave/warehouse) but other people have covered those. That's just laziness/greed; it's not about more content.

Overall the game wasn't awful, i was just expecting way too much. I mean its bioware, spiritual successor to Baldurs gate etc etc. The spiritual successor to BG doesnt let me pick what armor my companions wear? Dragon age 3 better be epic as fuck story wise. I want to see flemeth battle the maker in dark city to control the darkspawn or something craaaazy.
oh yeah launch dlc is terrible how can they honestly live with themselves.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
March 13 2011 06:20 GMT
#876
I don't get this game's combat. On Hard I get absolutely plastered, because I don't want to dick around finding the best gear and buying up all the potions just to beat a fight (and some bosses just have ridiculous amounts of HP and don't seem to die), on Normal I don't have to control anything, because my allies steamroll everything at the speed of light. Isn't there a middle ground ? Ugh...

I'm supposed to be "The Champion" god damnit. Why does some city thug have 3x my HP.
Mob scaling has got to be the worst thing that happened to RPGs...

Back to starcraft, I guess...
lynx.oblige
Profile Joined August 2009
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-13 06:57:48
March 13 2011 06:54 GMT
#877
i have bought a total of like two potions and no armor or weapons from vendors and I'm doing fine on nightmare.

Tactics and positioning, brew. Positioning is especially important because, protip, you can pull pieces of groups. Not having to fight the whole horde is cake.

I also run my main as tank, Bethany as healer/arcane cc, Merrill as magic dps/arcane cc, and Isabella as mostly physical dps and threat control, zero swashbuckler abilities. Swash looks like decent off tanking though.
Everyone needs a nemesis.
Synk
Profile Joined April 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-13 07:27:25
March 13 2011 07:26 GMT
#878
I found that Avaline was fucking worthless as the game went on, she never held aggro on anything for any length of time even after a taunt. I ended up using Fenris as my "tank" because he actually gets some pretty fucking awsome talents that allow him to both kickass ( the only real way to get aggro it seems like in this game, even with that threat aura running ) and tank pretty decently at the same time, made the game really fun because I just lawn mowed everything down so fast. Also I want to say that if you make your main the healer and go into spirit healing, its pretty much totally broken .. you cannot die ( seriously ). My mage regen'd 100% of her health every tick so unless she got 1 shot ( she had a good bit of hp as well, almost as much as the tank thanks to spirit healer talents ) she would never die ever, its deffinately broke haha, but spirit healers are also pretty good healers .. better than Anders I think but I haven't gotten to use him for more than just an hour or two so far ( on my second play through, in which my main is now the tank ). Oh, wanted to add on the end here that this was on hard difficulty, doing nightmare now on my 2nd pass through.

But I'm really curious what other people do to actually make a "sword and board" tank work, because I couldn't get anything to hit Avaline to save my life, she just dicked around doing crap dps and only tanking like 1 or 2 of the 12 mobs I was fighting at the time.
Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
TMTurtle
Profile Joined August 2010
183 Posts
March 13 2011 08:04 GMT
#879
I'm having a lot of fun playing without any healing or a Sword and Board tank at all. My "tank", such as he is, is just Fenris with a bunch of the +defensive/+crit talents and his attributes tuned to Cunning.

I'll grant that I'm only playing it on Normal atm but who cares? I'll do something more standard later on when I'm not having so much damn fun.
lynx.oblige
Profile Joined August 2009
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
March 13 2011 08:15 GMT
#880
As a sword and board Tank main, I just rely on positioning mostly. I try to get a largest possible group of enemies together and just taunt them. I have threat reduction abilities on Isabella but the only one I even use is the passive - a well placed taunt from Hawke does the trick most of the time. I am also playing on nightmare so I cannot imagine it failing in other difficulties.
Everyone needs a nemesis.
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