On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
Hmmm odd.. I never noticed that problem, despite playing Barb more than half the time across the Open Beta weekend @.@
Ah well, whatever that is, i ll worry about it when it actually become a problem (aka after the 15th :3)
On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
I'm pretty sure this refers to not being able to dodge a melee attack once its animation has started, and that makes proper sense at least from a design standpoint because it would be horribly hard to pull off in the coding, and could lead to some serious player abuse. But your notion of melee mobs hitting halfway across the screen is simply not true if the open beta is to be believed. As I said before, I was definitely able to increase survivability on my barb by stutterstepping, and pure logic suggests that if any of the casters/DH have animations that last longer that a split second (arcane orb does for sure), you can increase efficiency with stutter micro there as well.
On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
I'm pretty sure this refers to not being able to dodge a melee attack once its animation has started, and that makes proper sense at least from a design standpoint because it would be horribly hard to pull off in the coding, and could lead to some serious player abuse. But your notion of melee mobs hitting halfway across the screen is simply not true if the open beta is to be believed. As I said before, I was definitely able to increase survivability on my barb by stutterstepping, and pure logic suggests that if any of the casters/DH have animations that last longer that a split second (arcane orb does for sure), you can increase efficiency with stutter micro there as well.
Yes, but the range the melee mob has is NOT what you would think of melee range. Watch the videos. You can't simply dodge in and out and not get hit. Yes, you can avoid certain attack animations, but those are relatively few in the view of things. My point was that at least in HC (Which I play) you don't want to be dodging in and out constantly as you will get killed because you thought you were out of range.
Wouldn't otherwise the optimal way to play a melee character be really annoying (run out every attack animation, run in and hit between them).
Also animation cancelling is not a bug, Bashiok confirms it in the link I posted. What is a bug is, holding down mouse button is slower than clicking manually.
On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote: I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
You are correct, they are not the same. But the situation where something unintended made the game harder than it was supposed to and blizzard then having to buff the difficulty to compensate is.
On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
I'm pretty sure this refers to not being able to dodge a melee attack once its animation has started, and that makes proper sense at least from a design standpoint because it would be horribly hard to pull off in the coding, and could lead to some serious player abuse. But your notion of melee mobs hitting halfway across the screen is simply not true if the open beta is to be believed. As I said before, I was definitely able to increase survivability on my barb by stutterstepping, and pure logic suggests that if any of the casters/DH have animations that last longer that a split second (arcane orb does for sure), you can increase efficiency with stutter micro there as well.
Yes, but the range the melee mob has is NOT what you would think of melee range. Watch the videos. You can't simply dodge in and out and not get hit. Yes, you can avoid certain attack animations, but those are relatively few in the view of things. My point was that at least in HC (Which I play) you don't want to be dodging in and out constantly as you will get killed because you thought you were out of range.
That was not at all what he talked about, and stop saying that melee mobs can hit you at ranged since they can't. Melee mobs can only hit you at melee, however their animation is slow so it can look like they hit you from far away. Anyhow what he meant is that if you just stand still then the monsters will surround you which will in turn make you take more hits. By constantly moving back you can take hits from just 1-2 monsters at a time instead since you will be standing outside the pack.
On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote: I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
You are correct, they are not the same. But the situation where something unintended made the game harder than it was supposed to and blizzard then having to buff the difficulty to compensate is.
Just fix the bug and most would be happy
Hmm? What is the unintended thing that made the game harder? o.O did i miss something?
@ Mastermyth and Ramong: It's not a bug. Bashiok has confirmed that it's an intentional mechanic. And there's no reason to remove it or increase the game's difficulty as it's completely optional and mechanically "demanding" and to a point limited by screen space, so you won't spend all of your time doing it.
On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote: I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
You are correct, they are not the same. But the situation where something unintended made the game harder than it was supposed to and blizzard then having to buff the difficulty to compensate is.
Just fix the bug and most would be happy
Hmm? What is the unintended thing that made the game harder? o.O did i miss something?
On April 30 2012 00:15 Shockk wrote: @ Mastermyth and Ramong: It's not a bug. Bashiok has confirmed that it's an intentional mechanic. And there's no reason to remove it or increase the game's difficulty as it's completely optional and mechanically "demanding" and to a point limited by screen space, so you won't spend all of your time doing it.
On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote: I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
You are correct, they are not the same. But the situation where something unintended made the game harder than it was supposed to and blizzard then having to buff the difficulty to compensate is.
Just fix the bug and most would be happy
Hmm? What is the unintended thing that made the game harder? o.O did i miss something?
On April 30 2012 00:15 Shockk wrote: @ Mastermyth and Ramong: It's not a bug. Bashiok has confirmed that it's an intentional mechanic. And there's no reason to remove it or increase the game's difficulty as it's completely optional and mechanically "demanding" and to a point limited by screen space, so you won't spend all of your time doing it.
On April 30 2012 00:07 ffreakk wrote:
On April 29 2012 23:16 Ramong wrote:
On April 29 2012 22:19 Mastermyth wrote:
On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote: I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
You are correct, they are not the same. But the situation where something unintended made the game harder than it was supposed to and blizzard then having to buff the difficulty to compensate is.
Just fix the bug and most would be happy
Hmm? What is the unintended thing that made the game harder? o.O did i miss something?
This made the game harder compared to the normal click+ hold? You totally lost me there.
No. Mastermyth and Ramong were under the impression that the stutter step damage increase was an unintentional bug and to compensate for this advantage, it'd either have to be removed or the game difficulty would have to be increased.
On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote: Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
I'm pretty sure this refers to not being able to dodge a melee attack once its animation has started, and that makes proper sense at least from a design standpoint because it would be horribly hard to pull off in the coding, and could lead to some serious player abuse. But your notion of melee mobs hitting halfway across the screen is simply not true if the open beta is to be believed. As I said before, I was definitely able to increase survivability on my barb by stutterstepping, and pure logic suggests that if any of the casters/DH have animations that last longer that a split second (arcane orb does for sure), you can increase efficiency with stutter micro there as well.
Yes, but the range the melee mob has is NOT what you would think of melee range. Watch the videos. You can't simply dodge in and out and not get hit. Yes, you can avoid certain attack animations, but those are relatively few in the view of things. My point was that at least in HC (Which I play) you don't want to be dodging in and out constantly as you will get killed because you thought you were out of range.
The only thing your video shows is that that mob cannot hit you from range. It can only start its attack animation from melee range, and then will finish regardless of where you are. We knew this already. As Klockan3 said, by staying on the outside of a pack, you will take fewer hits. Since mobs keep moving, this means you need to keep moving as well to avoid getting surrounded. But if you move too much, you lose damage output. Hence stutterstep micro.
On April 30 2012 00:26 Shockk wrote: No. Mastermyth and Ramong were under the impression that the stutter step damage increase was an unintentional bug and to compensate for this advantage, it'd either have to be removed or the game difficulty would have to be increased.
No, I simply called it a bug because others did and it might indeed have been unintentional (but I wasn't sure). I believe this stutterstep damage increase is a good thing, as long as it's not required before the higher difficulties.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use?
@Wegandi What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.
Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
I'm pretty sure this refers to not being able to dodge a melee attack once its animation has started, and that makes proper sense at least from a design standpoint because it would be horribly hard to pull off in the coding, and could lead to some serious player abuse. But your notion of melee mobs hitting halfway across the screen is simply not true if the open beta is to be believed. As I said before, I was definitely able to increase survivability on my barb by stutterstepping, and pure logic suggests that if any of the casters/DH have animations that last longer that a split second (arcane orb does for sure), you can increase efficiency with stutter micro there as well.
Yes, but the range the melee mob has is NOT what you would think of melee range. Watch the videos. You can't simply dodge in and out and not get hit. Yes, you can avoid certain attack animations, but those are relatively few in the view of things. My point was that at least in HC (Which I play) you don't want to be dodging in and out constantly as you will get killed because you thought you were out of range.
The only thing your video shows is that that mob cannot hit you from range. It can only start its attack animation from melee range, and then will finish regardless of where you are. We knew this already. As Klockan3 said, by staying on the outside of a pack, you will take fewer hits. Since mobs keep moving, this means you need to keep moving as well to avoid getting surrounded. But if you move too much, you lose damage output. Hence stutterstep micro.
On April 30 2012 00:26 Shockk wrote: No. Mastermyth and Ramong were under the impression that the stutter step damage increase was an unintentional bug and to compensate for this advantage, it'd either have to be removed or the game difficulty would have to be increased.
No, I simply called it a bug because others did and it might indeed have been unintentional (but I wasn't sure). I believe this stutterstep damage increase is a good thing, as long as it's not required before the higher difficulties.
Hmm, i don't think they intend this as a requirement at all, higher difficulties or otherwise.
And looking at what we know of higher difficulties, you likely would be cosntantly on the move anyway. "Tank and spank" type situations where you can just dump your highest DPS "rotation" should be few and far between. I feel that some people are too caught up with this theoretical DPS, and ignoring the fact that they will be constantly moving and attacking at the same time (esp when the game gets hard, which is when all this actually matters) anyway, whether they want to do this stutter thing or not.
On a more cogent level, am I crazy or is there quite a bit going on in that trailer that we haven't seen before? Obviously I recognize a lot of it, but there were definitely some things that haven't shown up in any earlier videos.
They definitely show that heaven will play a bigger role, and that you'll be going there, but I believe this was already known if you've been following most of what has been coming out (I didn't look at super-spoiler stuff like where they cracked the beta).
On April 30 2012 04:57 eluv wrote: hypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehypehype
On a more cogent level, am I crazy or is there quite a bit going on in that trailer that we haven't seen before? Obviously I recognize a lot of it, but there were definitely some things that haven't shown up in any earlier videos.
Yeah they said there would be a lot of things revealed for the first time in this commercial when they first announced its debut date. Its fucking intense too.
On April 30 2012 05:08 HardlyNever wrote: Didn't see anything terribly new.
They definitely show that heaven will play a bigger role, and that you'll be going there, but I believe this was already known if you've been following most of what has been coming out (I didn't look at super-spoiler stuff like where they cracked the beta).
Well the only thing in the video were cinematics and about half of it had never been revealed before.
EPT
