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On April 29 2012 16:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:35 UniversalSnip wrote:
micro and hero control, I could not be more happy about this... They've all ready said that it is a bug that they intend to patch (slower shooting if you hold the mouse down). I'm glad they are fixing it. I play Diablo to relax and have fun, with more strategic depth as RPG's allow for. This twitchy-ness is good for some FPS and RTS, but keep it away from my RPG's thanks. :p
Where did they say that? Although a while ago, Bashiok said it was intentional and not a bug or exploit.
Edit: You can still relax and play casually. The dps difference is not so massive that you have to play that way. It is an optimal way, but not required.
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Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
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I hope they keep that, at least the stutter animation canceling.
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I would find this game ass boring if there is no animation cancelling of any kind.
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I think the bug should stay. It rewards players that actually try to get more out of their controls.
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I'm going to be playing Witch Doctor, but I'm really scared his abilities will be more flukes and for fun rather than straight-forward/concrete/useful in the game D:
That's my biggest worry right now, especially when I see my friend play Demon Hunter.
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On April 29 2012 19:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm going to be playing Witch Doctor, but I'm really scared his abilities will be more flukes and for fun rather than straight-forward/concrete/useful in the game D:
That's my biggest worry right now, especially when I see my friend play Demon Hunter.
I highly doubt so.
Not that it should mean anything, but WD was by far the most powerful class in the Open Beta weekend.
Also most of his skills seem solid, at least as far as i can tell from the Skill Calc.
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On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency.
Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating?
Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
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@Wegandi
I'm not sure if you're arguing for the right 'bug'. Animation cancelling doesn't require much effort, it requires good timing and a bit of precision that's it and it's not all that bad. If they somehow lock animations it would look terrible I'd assume.
The spam-the-mouse-button-to-death bug should go away, yes.
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On April 29 2012 20:26 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency. Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating? Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies.
10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all.
But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
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On April 29 2012 20:39 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 20:26 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency. Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating? Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies. 10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all. But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction.
Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
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I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
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On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote:
I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
That's quite an alarmist post
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On April 29 2012 20:47 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 20:39 ffreakk wrote:On April 29 2012 20:26 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency. Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating? Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies. 10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all. But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction. Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p
Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are.
Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it.
Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
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On April 29 2012 21:45 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 20:47 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 20:39 ffreakk wrote:On April 29 2012 20:26 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency. Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating? Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies. 10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all. But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction. Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are. Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it. Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion.
Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way).
Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game.
Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this.
Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game.
They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
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On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote:
I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties.
The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does.
Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need for the damage bug is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
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On April 29 2012 22:19 Mastermyth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote:
I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties. The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does. Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels.
Not really. You'll want to retreat and recoup and plan your next move, but you don't want to poke in and out on the corners like that because the melee range of monsters is actually like a quarter to half a screen or more. That's just part of playing melee characters. Blizzard doesn't want you running in and out of melee range never getting hit.
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On April 29 2012 22:23 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:19 Mastermyth wrote:On April 29 2012 20:47 Ramong wrote:
I have to agree with Wegandi, if this stays in the game Blizzard would have to increase difficulty to compensate for the damage the bug adds.
They did this in vannila WoW where you was obliged to bring 20 different potions, elixirs, food buffs and other buffs. The result was a very hardcore PvE enviroment that made people without the time to farm these things unable to defeat the raid bosses, no matter what their skill level was.
This bug could eventually lead to it being mandatory to complete the the highest difficulties. The two are not comparable. Farming stuff in Vanilla WoW (and early TBC) was simply mind-numbing and time consuming, and didn't add anything to the game. Stutterstep micro does. Besides, if Inferno difficulty is anything like the devs make it out to be, stutterstep micro will probably be necessary anyway, simply because even without the damage bug it's the most efficient way of dealing damage while staying alive. Even barbarians gain significant survivability from it by not constantly standing in the middle of the group but skirting to the edges while hitting. So if the amount of clicks is there anyway, all you would need is good click timing, and that is something you can put into a game as a skill requirement for higher levels. Not really. You'll want to retreat and recoup and plan your next move, but you don't want to poke in and out on the corners like that because the melee range of monsters is actually like a quarter to half a screen or more. That's just part of playing melee characters. Blizzard doesn't want you running in and out of melee range never getting hit.
Well my open beta experience with barb tells me otherwise. Whenever I got 3-4 of those fatties on me I could simply stutterstep to the side and only get hit by 1-2 while still getting full cleave. The other 2-3 would have to move around while not doing any damage to me.
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On April 29 2012 22:06 Ahzz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 21:45 ffreakk wrote:On April 29 2012 20:47 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 20:39 ffreakk wrote:On April 29 2012 20:26 Wegandi wrote:On April 29 2012 17:24 HaXXspetten wrote:
Animation cancelling already exists in several games, like DotA and CoD, but the general opinion of it has always been positive. I, for one, definitely approves of this, it'll make it a lot less chilled back and more high paced if you want to get maximum efficiency. Yes, those are competitive multiplayer games. They increase the skill level of the game, which is a good thing. This is Diablo. A RPG, not competitive, and is more aimed at being single player / co-operative. Having this in the game makes no sense. They would have to increase monster difficulty to match the added damage this brings, which essentially means more spam clicking for everyone, and in a non-competitive game that (currently) has no PvP...no one find this a tad exaggerating? Besides, in CoD and DotA you aren't going to be clicking @ 300APM like you would do so in a game like Diablo. You don't even click that much in Starcraft. I don't think people realize how stressful that is. Good luck having a 10+ hour session clicking hundreds of thousands of times (easily). Hell, my hand starts to ache / hurt after about 8 hours playing PoE and that's holding down the mouse and I play @ 230ish APM in Starcraft 2 and have no carpal or other maladies. 10 hours sessions? That would be roughly equivalent to a 10 DotA games in a row? It wasn't that bad, people who were used to these things won't have any problems at all. But i do see your point about this being more of a Single-Player/Co-op game. And Blizz probably will fix it in that direction. Not sure if you have ever played a Diablo type game before, but it is by far and away the most clickiest / spammiest games there are, especially so if you gave a damage boost for clicking in rapid succession. I'd wager the average person wouldn't be able to play for more than 5 hours in a row due to the stress involved. As a test, try non-stop clicking at a very rapid pace (aka pretty much as fast as you can) for 5 hours and see how you feel afterwards and then say if its a good design for this type of game. There's a reason the hold mouse to attack was designed :p Hmm, yes i have played Diablo 2 before. Also the reason why i know that you HOLD your mouse and move it around to move/attack things (think Frenzy Barb, etc) rather than click click click. In many aspects, Diablo 2 is among the LEAST clickiest games there are. Honestly, you seem to be just one those greedy guys who doesn't want to lose out to people (aka stay optimal) but are too lazy to work for it. Average or no, people are obviously given the option to Hold and play the same way as before, only at the expense of being slightly suboptimal. Extra involvement and skills in a game being rewarded is completely fair and reasonable, in my opinion. Oh come on... How does it make any sense that you're supposed to attack faster while moving, as opposed to staying put? It does not make any sense. The skill to the game should come from other things than simply nearly pointless spamfest. (pointless as in no other point besides increasing your damage output in an unimaginitive way). Remember in starcraft 1 when reavers would shoot again each time you unloaded it, so if you loaded and unloaded 5 times a second, it would fire 5 times. This is stupid, and is by no means a 'good mechanic' to involve more skill to the game. Your heroes don't attack faster if you spam in dota or HoN. You spam so that you are unpredictable and so that you can mess with their last hits with attack animation cancellation. That is totally fine for D3 as well, but not some dps increase for facerolling your buttons. Timing, positioning, smart use of abilities and reaction time is what makes a game good and competitive. Not this. Keeping this would be nothing but a desperate attempt to make something involve skill which makes no sense and doesn't add anything but faceroll to your game. They involve skill in a much more complex matter, such as giving considerable bonus exp for killing lots of monsters in a short period of time.
Hmm, you are mostly right, but a small correction. Attack animation cancelling in DotA allows for more damage dealt on running away heroes. In fact that is its main use, faking last hit in lane, and dropping mob aggro while harassing is pretty much confined to the early stages of the game.
I didn't say that DotA works the same way though, i merely mentioned that it's the same skill, and people familiar with long hours of DotA would feel right at home with this stutter mechanic.
What i DID say though, is that if a mechanic rewards involved and active gameplay, i'm all for it (as long as the reward is subtle enough and isn't over the top, of course)
In any case, chances are you will want to be running around casting spells as opposed to standing still in 1 place holding a button anw. Why not put those clicking to good use? 
@Wegandi
What what? o.O Melee range of monster == quarter to half the screen? o.O are we playing the same game? In the game i played, Vault barely reach half the screen @.@ and Vault is VERY different from Melee range.
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EPT
