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On October 14 2010 22:55 byFd wrote:just from reading her passive i think it is not that important to get the bonus magic damage right from the start? i'd say spellvamp is more important to have more lane staying power?? 
Ye, that's how I play her. I just go 2 AD quints, and masteries 9/21/0, since I think offense suck for her.
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On October 14 2010 23:36 ldrs wrote:
And then came the argument about whether or not denying in the WC3 engine was intended by Blizzard or not (if anyone knows please enlighten me).
More like, in Blizzard games you can force-attack your own units. I could probably make a dozen war memorials for the number of units I've accidentally killed mis-clicking an attack-move. Actually I'd imagine this is the case in most games. Denying was simply a by-product of this. The reduced exp is interesting, of course, because it implies Blizzard considered denying exp a possible strategy to use in WC3 melee games, and people picked it up in DotA and ran with it. That's all.
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Do you guys like getting Doran's blade on Pantheon? I've been going Dorans > Boots > Brutalizer >
1-2 more doran's blade > Phage/Giants belt > Ghostblade > Frozen Mallet.
I pick Panth when the first pick goes LOL twitch/kogmaw/MF.
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Pretty sure denying doesn't give any exp by default in WC3, Icefrog coded in the partial denial exp when it started being a problem.
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On October 14 2010 23:58 GranDim wrote:
Pretty sure denying doesn't give any exp by default in WC3, Icefrog coded in the partial denial exp when it started being a problem.
Boom, there you go then, lol.
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Denying increases skill ceiling because it allows you to control your lane, and also always gives you something to do. Lots of solo matchups in LoL are becoming snorefests (Sion vs Morgana is usually a 20 minute 1 click 1 wave farmfest) It also doesn't extend the laning phase either (Top Lane in LoL does though)
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On October 15 2010 00:00 Yiruru wrote:
Denying increases skill ceiling because it allows you to control your lane, and also always gives you something to do. Lots of solo matchups in LoL are becoming snorefests (Sion vs Morgana is usually a 20 minute 1 click 1 wave farmfest) It also doesn't extend the laning phase either (Top Lane in LoL does though)
I would argue that's more a case of poor hero design and/or sad-sack matchups than a case of lowered skill ceiling because there's no denying.
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Actually, Sion vs Morgana is a no skill matchup, even with denying. The wave still dies in 1 click, and neither side can kill, so yes poor hero design
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On October 15 2010 00:04 Yiruru wrote:
Actually, Sion vs Morgana is a no skill matchup, even with denying. The wave still dies in 1 click, and neither side can kill, so yes poor hero design
Is basically my point, yeah.
Does it suck that we don't have awesome matchups these days like Annie vs Ashe?
Yes, I think the rise in number of CLICK TO WIN LANE heroes is kinda stupid.
Would adding denying fix the problem?
Not really.
Adding denies isn't going to stop Vlad from being a retarded hero against most champions, nor would it stop MF or Kogmaw or Nidalee from being absolute bitches to certain matchups, nor would it stop the CLICK TO DESTROY CREEP heroes like Sion Morg Galio from razing creep waves. It's just poor hero design, which is a perfectly fine argument to make, but trying to argue that lack of denying = game is instantly more noob-friendly is a strange argument to make ;p
There're still plenty of fascinating matchups that happen (nuker vs ranged DPS etc.).
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On October 14 2010 23:59 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 23:58 GranDim wrote:
Pretty sure denying doesn't give any exp by default in WC3, Icefrog coded in the partial denial exp when it started being a problem. Boom, there you go then, lol.
+ Show Spoiler +
6.36
====
* Added two new heroes (both disabled in -lm)
* New loading screen (thanks Artgerm)
* Gravekeeper's Cloak reduced from 7/14/21/28 to 6/12/18/24
* Nether Ward HP reduced from 100/200/300/400 to 75/150/225/300
* Searing Arrows cooldown from 0 to 4/3/2/0
* Dark Ritual cooldown from 45 to 60/55/50/45
* Nightmare casting range from 650 to 500/550/600/650
* Storm's Dispel damage increased from 200 to 350
* Chakra cooldown from 25 to 19
* Viper's Poison Attack cooldown from 0 to 4/3/0/0
* Denied units now give off minor Experience instead of none (planned for improved league play from a while back, unrelated to the recent forum postings for those wondering)
* Improved Mana Burn cast range on neutral Satyr (only meaningful when converted since it does not autocast anymore)
* Ogre Magi base damage improved
* Redistributed Crystalys/Buriza recipe costs from 1000/750 to 500/1250
* Improved base Intelligence on Phantom Lancer
* Increased Mask of Madness lifesteal from 10% to 17%
* Track cast range improved per level
* Increased Battlefury cleave aoe from 160 to 200, damage from +50 to +65 and a little more HP/Mana regen.
* Increased Leshrac's agility
* Improved how Doppelwalk levels
* Monkey King Bar's bonus damage increased from 90 to 100
* Luna attack range from 300 to 330
* Drunken Haze's duration from 5 to 7 seconds and slightly reduced mana cost
* Increased duration of level 2 and 3 of Doom by 2 seconds
* Changed level 2 and 3 Phantasm to take the same 200% extra damage as level 1
* Buffed Ursa's strength gain per level
* Fixed the old incorrect Chaos Damage ladder tooltip to reflect the DotA custom settings
* Rebased Lightning Bolt due to it sometimes causing allies to lose their issued orders on the target
* Fixed a recent bug with Chronosphere that froze his images
* Fiend's Grip now properly stops the effect when you run out of mana
* Swapped the locations of Dusk and Twighlight Taverns to be consistent with the Sentinel side
* Temporarily disabled -lmap
* Fixed -vr to random inside the voted hero vs hero set, so for example, blue/pink don't always get the first one listed anymore. Don't confuse this with the 10 heroes being randomized, only the order which they are assigned once the lineup is voted on. This removes the voting bias that previously existed in informal games
* Fixed a Clinkz Searing/Windwalk exploit
* Fixed Perseverance undo ability and Reality from triggering Essence Aura
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That's not poor hero design, that's just the effect of putting massively effective mana regeneration mechanics into the game. The entire game has that issue.
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On October 14 2010 23:57 Chrispy wrote:
Do you guys like getting Doran's blade on Pantheon? I've been going Dorans > Boots > Brutalizer >
1-2 more doran's blade > Phage/Giants belt > Ghostblade > Frozen Mallet.
I pick Panth when the first pick goes LOL twitch/kogmaw/MF.
I dunno, that's so far from my way of playing him that I can't really give you much insight. I have tried dblade openings and stacking, but I have always hit the point where I'm at 3 dblades and been like, "why the fuck don't I just have a brutalizer?  "
On October 15 2010 00:00 Yiruru wrote:
Denying increases skill ceiling because it allows you to control your lane, and also always gives you something to do. Lots of solo matchups in LoL are becoming snorefests (Sion vs Morgana is usually a 20 minute 1 click 1 wave farmfest) It also doesn't extend the laning phase either (Top Lane in LoL does though)
I think part of the disconnect between this line of thinking and what Utah's saying is that they see skill cieling differently. I agree with Utah and my train of thought is that denying doesn't add some new skill, it just serves to further accentuate disparity in matchups.
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Yes LoL lanes are pretty much about spam, since Riot somehow decided spamming Q took more skill than last hitting.
Actually adding denies would change some matchups. Pantheon would be favored against Vlad as a example, instead of being about 5:5 right now. But yeah the majority would be unchanged because Riot's mana system allows you to spam AoE on creeps pretty much forever with Doran's Ring and MP5s
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On October 15 2010 00:13 L wrote:
That's not poor hero design, that's just the effect of putting massively effective mana regeneration mechanics into the game. The entire game has that issue.
Massively effective mana regeneration also results in matchups like Ezreal vs Annie and Ashe vs Kassadin, which are highly micro-intensive and generally result in "the better player wins." Even Morg vs Kassadin, which you might think is retarded because Morg razes creep waves, turns into a micro-intensive matchup post-6 because Kassadin can dodge Q and auto-attack Morg to death + has nearly infinite mana due to the double-mana intake from W on champs.
More often than not the "zzz" lanes arise from bad matchups. Morgana vs any mostly spell-based hero results in a zzz fest because the spell-based hero can't touch Morgana while Morgana rarely is able to make things happen on her own in a 1v1 vaccuum. Hence why Sion vs Morg turns into a lolcreep war - it's not like Morg can kill Sion, and it's not like Sion can touch Morg. It's a matter of seeing two heroes that explode creep waves in one spell, and have the means to prevent each other from killing them as well.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
I would main gangplank if they added in denying, have fun being level 2/3 while im level 6 rofl
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On October 15 2010 00:15 Yiruru wrote:
Yes LoL lanes are pretty much about spam, since Riot somehow decided spamming Q took more skill than last hitting.
Actually adding denies would change some matchups. Pantheon would be favored against Vlad as a example, instead of being about 5:5 right now. But yeah the majority would be unchanged because Riot's mana system allows you to spam AoE on creeps pretty much forever with Doran's Ring and MP5s
i would just feel terrible for the opponents if I could deny with Pantheon. I also think he beats Vlad pretty convincingly for the first 5 levels, it's just that when he wins the lane early, Vlad is still in the game and can come back on the lane simply by leveling up a bit, whereas if you get ganked and give Vlad a little room to get at all ahead, you're completely boned on the lane.
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Are they actually talking about adding deny or are you guys just speculating? o_o
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
no im pretty sure they stated that they will never add denying to the game
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I think it's just a hot topic with the news of DotA2
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On October 15 2010 00:19 Brees wrote:
I would main gangplank if they added in denying, have fun being level 2/3 while im level 6 rofl
You can't actually use your skills to deny, only autoattacks, so you can still raise morale creeps but you can't parlay your own guys, for instance.
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EPT
