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R04R
United States1631 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On October 14 2010 16:31 R04R wrote: Just found out what denying refers too from HoN/Dota. Interesting concept. It makes laning much more dynamic and would probably help the ones that aren't farming too well. I'm just afraid laning phase would last forever. See: On October 14 2010 15:04 Jazriel wrote: The problem with denying is that it highlights to an exponential degree the simple and unrelated-to-skill factor of "My hero has a better X than yours" where X is attack animation or projectile speed or cast point etc and you simply can't do anything. My problem with denying in DotA/HoN is that it rewards the above, as well as superior champ selection. If you end up with an inferior champ squad in the lane you get hit with the triple whammy of 1) you get physically zoned out of exp range 2) you get less exp for the creep you're in range of 3) you're effectively fighting far away from your tower so you're liable to getting ganked. At competitive levels this may not be as much of an issue but it's a nightmare with pubs (think people get frustrated losing lanes in LoL? it's even worse in DotA/HoN because you get castrated completely) and when you're playing an "inferior" hero ala tier lists. This kinda goes back to hero balance, which I do not think DotA did a particularly great job with. Edit: It was a deliberate design decision by Riot to, in LoL, do away with denying because of the above. As an example, have you seen a GP+X vs GP+X lane? It's retarded. You end up with level 3 heroes when everyone else is like 6/5/4 it's stupid. It slows down the game, and it arbitrarily punishes certain heroes. There're lane domination pairs in LoL, like Taric Garen or Soraka Ashe or whatnot. But while these pairs give teams tremendous advantages they don't completely castrate players who know what they're doing (although Sona/Kennen etc. come pretty close these days LOL). Played against double stun teams in LoL? It sucks playing versus them, but in exchange for their free farm you at least get exp, keeping you in the game. On the other hand it's totally up to them if they're willing to sacrifice gold to let the creep push the other way, zoning you entirely out of exp. But there's a trade-off there that's done to prevent you, in an inferior lane, from being completely taken out of the game. They may gimp you, but they'll also slow themselves down, allowing for come-backs. Hence the majority of lane domination comes in the form of farming progress and direct hero damage. You can argue for and against this being "good." I'd imagine most people who opted for LoL over DotA/HoN preferred this, at least subconsciously. Those that cry about the lack of deny, in my opinion can't stand the lack of free-winning over opponents via champ selection and/or can't deal with the massive amount of direct hero damage, and can't capitalize on gold advantage. Is that a generalization? Of course, but it's no different a generalization then arbitrarily crying that the lack of deny somehow denotes significantly less skill. Last I checked, killing your own creep and killing an enemy creep differed purely in the distinguishing of different colors. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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R04R
United States1631 Posts
On October 14 2010 17:04 Mogwai wrote: my 2 cents: I think Shen is a pretty cool guy. Eh Ki Strikes everyone and doesn't afraid of anything. fail Kayle is so good. Double-dip atk/ap imba | ||
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-Kato-
Spain1146 Posts
Marks for WW, what is the optimal number of ArPen marks needed to jungle as fast as possible? I usually have MPen marks, would it be better to have only ArPen, to make those very early game ganks more successful? | ||
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Jazriel
Canada404 Posts
Denying is cool, don't get me wrong. I still fondly remember the times where I'll have a CS of like 60/30 as Soul Reaper or something like that as I own noobs who can't lasthit/deny with something like Nevermore. Then again, Deadwood exists. It's not really a matter of skill to face Deadwood 1v1 solo mid. | ||
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
On October 14 2010 17:27 -Kato- wrote: I was going to do some calculations but then I thought you guys here at TL will already know this, so: Marks for WW, what is the optimal number of ArPen marks needed to jungle as fast as possible? I usually have MPen marks, would it be better to have only ArPen, to make those very early game ganks more successful? Attack speed marks. | ||
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-Kato-
Spain1146 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
To elaborate, that isn´t because of WWs passive. It´s because Junglemobs have 0 Armor - ArPen is completely useless against them. Edit: Attackspeed isn´t useless. It IS weaker than ArPen against anything with armor BUT as jungler you aren´t initially concerned about that. As Jungler you need to be able to jungle well. If you do that the ussage of Junglebuffs/Gold, Dragon and a 2nd sololane benefits your Team FAR FAR more than the dps difference between ArPen and Attackspeed Marks. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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byFd
Germany620 Posts
first game was good, went gank the top lane where we had our kat 1v2 them, i first tought i messed it up, but we got them both, 1 kill for each of us. rest of the game went good, pulled of some ults too actually  second game was kinda meh i changed masteries a bit (forgot smite mastery in first game :D) which made me have less armor and no SoS mastery, so i got kinda low health in jungle. haven't gotten a good gank  additionally i died to dragon that game, the second i used consume (already heard the sound) dragon killed me, that was fun and sad in the same time lol. i got a kinda bad record, not much kills but kinda lot assists, used my ult to slow / distract them for twitch ult and they always focussed me down then BTW: gangster twitch is epic! RATATATATATATA! | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 14 2010 18:48 -Kato- wrote: But AS marks do not help at ganking and become useless late game right? Bloodrazors benefit more from attackspeed than armor pen because it's magic damage and %hp and that's the only damage item you get on him, full attackspeed on every rune is best on WW. | ||
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byFd
Germany620 Posts
On October 14 2010 19:25 Kaniol wrote: LOL i just realised that while i'm bad with mumu b/c of missing bandage's a lot at the same time i love playing Olaf cause i always hit with his Q. WTF? prolly different speed and undertow goes trough minions and stuff^^ | ||
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 14 2010 20:02 Vlanitak wrote: hm... Question: does Rylai's Crystal scepters passive stack? because it is not put as Unique (like: Zhoneya's am) I know sunfire stacks, so I was thinking maybe this did aswell? I think there was something about slows from items not stacking in general. Probably not even Mallet + Rylai's (for example via Cho's autoattack + Vorpal). But I am not really sure about it, I just vaguely remember reading it. Oh look, he beat me. | ||
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On October 14 2010 20:08 spinesheath wrote: I think there was something about slows from items not stacking in general. Probably not even Mallet + Rylai's (for example via Cho's autoattack + Vorpal). But I am not really sure about it, I just vaguely remember reading it. Oh look, he beat me. Are you guys both sure 100% on this because as it is right now Vorpal doesn't proc rylais and next patch it will, it might change my TT build cuz I open mallet on there. Probably won't matter though. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 14 2010 16:15 Shizuru~ wrote: it gets on my nerves some times, when some idiots decide to push towards their tower overextending themselves, and when they gets ganked then goes "WTF L2 CALL MISS NUBBBB!"... seriously, the minimap is a shit tonne more dependable than waiting for someone to call misses, u get the time to watch chat but not the the time to take a glimpse at the minimap? a skill that carries over well from SC for me. when i try to tell them politely that u shouldn't really be depending on pubs to call misses and the minimap is a much more dependable tools then their insecurity and ego kicks and proceeds to flame me -.- calling miss is helpful, but still map awareness is a skill u should personally have, its your own fault for getting ganked for not being aware of wtf is going on in places other than your own lane... Should still call MIA, i played alot of SC and i still dont watch the minimap all the time(about C lvl w/ Terran) and die to stupid ganks because our bot or mid decided to go "Kennen mia" after he had already double killed our lane or something stupid. Its courtesy imo | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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