League of Legends [New forum, check OP!] - Page 1210

On October 15 2010 00:40 Juicyfruit wrote:


You can't actually use your skills to deny, only autoattacks, so you can still raise morale creeps but you can't parlay your own guys, for instance.

On October 15 2010 00:42 Brees wrote:


so basically they want to make ranged characters even more overpowered? would anyone even bother playing melee champs besides junglers then?

On October 14 2010 16:35 Southlight wrote:


See:


My problem with denying in DotA/HoN is that it rewards the above, as well as superior champ selection. If you end up with an inferior champ squad in the lane you get hit with the triple whammy of 1) you get physically zoned out of exp range 2) you get less exp for the creep you're in range of 3) you're effectively fighting far away from your tower so you're liable to getting ganked. At competitive levels this may not be as much of an issue but it's a nightmare with pubs (think people get frustrated losing lanes in LoL? it's even worse in DotA/HoN because you get castrated completely) and when you're playing an "inferior" hero ala tier lists. This kinda goes back to hero balance, which I do not think DotA did a particularly great job with.

Edit:
It was a deliberate design decision by Riot to, in LoL, do away with denying because of the above. As an example, have you seen a GP+X vs GP+X lane? It's retarded. You end up with level 3 heroes when everyone else is like 6/5/4 it's stupid. It slows down the game, and it arbitrarily punishes certain heroes. There're lane domination pairs in LoL, like Taric Garen or Soraka Ashe or whatnot. But while these pairs give teams tremendous advantages they don't completely castrate players who know what they're doing (although Sona/Kennen etc. come pretty close these days LOL). Played against double stun teams in LoL? It sucks playing versus them, but in exchange for their free farm you at least get exp, keeping you in the game. On the other hand it's totally up to them if they're willing to sacrifice gold to let the creep push the other way, zoning you entirely out of exp. But there's a trade-off there that's done to prevent you, in an inferior lane, from being completely taken out of the game. They may gimp you, but they'll also slow themselves down, allowing for come-backs. Hence the majority of lane domination comes in the form of farming progress and direct hero damage.

You can argue for and against this being "good." I'd imagine most people who opted for LoL over DotA/HoN preferred this, at least subconsciously. Those that cry about the lack of deny, in my opinion can't stand the lack of free-winning over opponents via champ selection and/or can't deal with the massive amount of direct hero damage, and can't capitalize on gold advantage. Is that a generalization? Of course, but it's no different a generalization then arbitrarily crying that the lack of deny somehow denotes significantly less skill. Last I checked, killing your own creep and killing an enemy creep differed purely in the distinguishing of different colors.

On October 15 2010 00:51 gtrsrs wrote:



the only problem i have with this post is how completely misinformed/uninformed you are

like i literally cannot think of a champ that's "supposed to farm" that can't farm in dota. and to help out all the noobs who struggled with easy lanes (like dragon knight, a melee hero, against any ranged hero... i'll take that lane all day every day and still come out with higher CS then you) IceFrog introduced the quelling blade

all of the sudden melee heroes get a 33% bonus to their attacks on minions, ranged get only a 12%. that means that most melee champs (who have higher base damage to begin with than ranged) will have a HUGE window to kill a creep before it's denyable by a ranged champ. still having trouble last-hitting? it's GOT to be a flawed game mechanic, not player skill!

and your pirate example also makes no sense. yes in LoL a Pirate+X v Pirate+X lane would be extremely underleveled comparatively but in DotA... everyone can deny! lanes level up equally because in games where players are of equal skill, everyone tends to farm/deny just about the same.

and even when your lane IS getting owned in dota, it's so much easier to actually call for a gank than in LoL. the LoL gap between tier 1 towers is soooo small, sometimes i wonder how anyone ever dies. in dota you've got enough room to maneuver and set up ganks instead of just barreling in from the river and praying for the best. and it makes sense to call for a gank in dota too - your opponent farming up a storm? when your mid comes to gank him he loses 300 gold, you get 300 gold, boom, now you're even again!

On October 15 2010 00:59 Brees wrote:
so how does this help the game again when they had to add items just to balance out the retarded mechanic? rofl gG

On October 15 2010 00:43 Southlight wrote:


Hence my rant http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6588772

Incidentally when I quit DotA for LoL for the most part the only melee heroes frequently chosen at competitive play were heroes that had stuns, for the double-stun.

On October 15 2010 01:00 Southlight wrote:
However, in a lane, if you're the storm panda with Jakiro in a 2v2 lane against CM+Lina your lane is almost certainly doomed. Can you farm? Maybe. Are you on the back foot? Yes. Is it rare for someone to bring a double-stun pair to a lane? No, certainly not, and at the junction that I stopped playing DotA that was the norm. Essentially every 2v2 lane degenerated into double stun vs double stun, and then every team had a super carry, et cetera et cetera.

On October 15 2010 01:11 Phrost wrote:



Weren't some of the agility based assassins good? I didn't play super competitively but Magina and that draenai assassin guy were pretty obnoxious iirc

On October 15 2010 01:14 Southlight wrote:
By the way, Morgana/Galio would TRASH Sion/Taric. What was your point again?

On October 15 2010 01:27 gtrsrs wrote:


i'm not so sure about that
but my point was putting two champs that want to farm an entire lane by themselves (and have to share the farm) against two champs that want to be aggressive and harass/kill a lot would be a dumb lane decision anyways

On October 15 2010 01:26 Southlight wrote:
And that's a fine argument to make (that it's balanced out by other stuff) but what peeves me is the argument that LoL is a bad game because it doesn't have denying, which is what's largely mentioned by people who try out LoL from DotA/HoN and go "it has no creep deny so it's bad and is for noobs." And I still don't buy the argument that creep deny is difficult by any means, it's just an extension of last-hitting. I have always assumed last-hitting is a basic skill (that I suck at lolol!).

I have no idea about the hero matchups in DotA, especially recently. I remember before I quit they fucked up CM's ult so it was so much weaker -_- And they reworked storm and I don't even remember what happened there.

For the record I don't deny that LoL has a significantly weaker competitive scene, although I'd bet that if CLG/GJ's squad were to play a top-end HoN team and they played both games we'd have both teams defending their turfs on their respective games... because they're very different games.

On October 15 2010 01:28 Durak wrote:
I guess I'll post about your dota/hon comment here because no one responded to my LoL question. Crazy backwards LoL thread.

There are plently of melee champions taken in competitive games. Sure, a lot of them have stuns, but not all of them. Melee carries, melee gankers, and melee support heroes are all played. If you want a quick list off the top of my head: behemoth, hammerstorm, pebbles, pandamonium, tundra, gladiator, devourer, balphagore, pharaoh, accursed, pestilence, maliken, magmus, madman, magebane, scout, nighthound, chronos, kraken, and fayde. Some heroes are played more or less often depending on how the scene is going. There are even another six or so I could add to that list but was before they were nerfed and I haven't seen them as much since.