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United States37500 Posts
Infinity is the best pure damage item in the game. Add in the crit dmg increase, it should be a no brainer. BR is great but I'd leave it to melee DPS champions. BR best ability is to bring down champions (and neutrals) with a ton of HP. In a team fight, that means tanks are your best target in team fights. But tanks are typically a bad target for you to hit first, etc. Melee champions on the other hand, are going to be tanky than the ranged DPS champion, and won't mind shredding the enemy tank with BR.
In general, physical DPS like Ashe, Trist, Twitch, their main items to get are Infinity+LW. In a flanked situation, DPS v DPS, the one with Infinity will come out on top against the one with Bloodrazor. Tack on a LW and even Tanks aren't a problem after the DPS is taken out.
Flat HP/MP > regen. Not to mention Catalyst builds into something, philo stone doesn't. Banshee is essentially the premiere survivability item for carries since they give HP, a free debuff shield, and additional MR. The level up bonus is also good. Combine everything together, HP/MP regen and +5g/10 is a joke.
DFG might not be the best item to go for as a first item. It's doable, but it doesn't beat Catalyst.
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While philosopher stone and catalyst can be nice in lane, Ashe is pretty much utter trash as a carry without getting attack asap. Volley and the enchanted arrow are your only real skills, and without attack, volley won't do much of anything anyways. Fast infinity edge is almost a must for any ashe to not be utter crap.
On December 22 2009 01:50 Diggity wrote:
If you are going Ashe, Trist or any other ranged carry aside from sivir always go Infinity Edge ASAP.
I've seen a lot of corki and trist players go black cleaver, works well against teams without armor.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 02:52 mrgerry wrote:
I was just recommending a philsoph stone opening since he is newer and opening Sapphire Crystal can be risky. Ive tore through many Ashe who open that way and have no regen to last in the lane or just end up getting outfarmed from being pushed to tower.
Razer's only add dps when fighting a tank while with an Infinity you hit everyone hard no matter what. Even when ive bought it as Teemo it still seems like i was doing more dmg with my IE either way since of MR reducing procs.
Well, that's entirely true. If you don't play as well/clean, regen does help cover a lot of your mistakes. But if your Ashe is top notch, an Ashe vs Ashe solo mid, the one with a Sapphire Crystal will beat the one with Regrowth Pendant. In that situation, extra mana means extra Volleys. More Volleys allows you to farm and harass better. Add in Ashe's crit passive, an offensive +Volley playstyle should (in most cases) outplay a defensive +HP Regen playstyle.
And agreed with your assessment on Razors. The more HP your target has, the more worthwhile BRs are. Dragon and Baron have a ton, making BRs a good investment. Melee DPS have more HP so they can solo said Dragon and Baron. A ranged DPS is better off focusing on pure damage and kite more in team fights.
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Hmm, 'cause with people sporting 2k hp (low-end casters/ranged carries) you're getting +80 (reduced by MR), on top of the +35 damage and 40% aspd from BR, which is relatively comparable to the +80 +20%crit +50%crit damage. IE is obviously better the more you stack crit chance/damage/attack speed but you end up wanting all of those (or at least crit/speed), while BR lets you be standalone and do other stuff like rush Banshee (which I sometimes have to do because I get focus'd down by stuns/nukes) and hit harder and harder (as the game goes on).
Incidentally I liked Malady not for the lifesteal but for the attack speed buff (which works well with BR) and the damage stacking - not too many items that give both aspd and damage output. Wit's End is an option instead of Malady in that regard - mid-tier cost for both speed and damage. Just depends on whether you actually need more magic resist or not (because I usually get Banshee...) Last Whisper is great too. Exe also nice for the anti-heal (Trynd etc.) and Crit chance... lots of options by the time you get there. Even when Sword of the Occult once for lulz and damage.
At the end of the day she's kinda more player-skill dependent than item dependent, anyways - the differences in builds seem pretty marginal.
Edit:
Woah lots of posts as I typed.
I don't give a flying rat's ass about the +5g/10 from Stone, that's just cherry on top. Come on, 30g/minute, that's hardly noticeable. It takes 30 minutes for it to pay for itself, but many games end in the first 20 minutes. If Stone didn't have the +5g/10 it'd still be one of the best dual-regen-for-laning items. Honestly. More mana = more volley, but up to a certain point with Utility Mastery +6% +1 mana regen you don't actually run out of mana with Ashe for a fair amount of time, even starting Regrowth instead of Maki + 2 potions (I've opted for Regrowth first for survivability). +200ish mana from Sapphire simply counts for three volleys, or an Enchanted Arrow, which is the bigger issue (without going back to complete Stone if you keep matching Volley you won't have enough for Arrow). But you can go back to finish Stone pretty early on (only 620 off of initial Regrowth compared to 900something for Catalyst), which means you're 300 gold faster at completing your mana regen item - plus you shed all the harassment damage done to you. That said you don't HAVE to go back immediately, just saying it's an option. And as I mentioned, Stone gives you more HP than Catalyst does, and comparable (if not slightly better) mana regen. It's just preference though. Maybe Catalyst is better Ashe vs Ashe (no idea) but against Twitch and such, it's quite nice being able to sit on Regrowth and harass them with your superior shooting range (you take one or two creep hits per shot but it hardly matters) - without Volley.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:05 atombombforpeace wrote:While philosopher stone and catalyst can be nice in lane, Ashe is pretty much utter trash as a carry without getting attack asap. Volley and the enchanted arrow are your only real skills, and without attack, volley won't do much of anything anyways. Fast infinity edge is almost a must for any ashe to not be utter crap. Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 01:50 Diggity wrote:
If you are going Ashe, Trist or any other ranged carry aside from sivir always go Infinity Edge ASAP.
I've seen a lot of corki and trist players go black cleaver, works well against teams without armor.
lol, was kinda waiting for someone to mention Corki.
Corki is more of a hybrid DPS than a physical one. The reason Cleaver is a good choice on him is because it synergizes so well with Gatling Gun. You will shred armor like paper with the item and skill in tandem.
But on Corki, I still prefer Trinity Force first. The 3 pieces are easier to build and give more benefits than a BF Sword, cause c'mon, Corki attacks pretty damn slow. You insta-gib enemies because of his 4 AOE spells, not so much his auto attack. Then a fully built Trinity gives you a good slow proc, amongst other things.
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Naw man Ashe is boring as hell I solo with Teemo
Dorans Shield --> Stinger/Berserker Greaves --> Phage --> Last Whisper --> Infinity been working wonders for me. I saw someone awhile ago use it, "ch33sy" i think -_- Needed a break from all the singed i play. You can really abuse the fact that people really hate Teemo and are over aggressive against him ^_^
edit: okay im back to studying i suck.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:10 Southlight wrote:
Hmm, 'cause with people sporting 2k hp (low-end casters/ranged carries) you're getting +80 (reduced by MR), on top of the +35 damage and 40% aspd from BR, which is relatively comparable to the +80 +20%crit +50%crit damage. IE is obviously better the more you stack crit chance/damage/attack speed but you end up wanting all of those (or at least crit/speed), while BR lets you be standalone and do other stuff like rush Banshee (which I sometimes have to do because I get focus'd down by stuns/nukes) and hit harder and harder (as the game goes on).
Incidentally I liked Malady not for the lifesteal but for the attack speed buff (which works well with BR) and the damage stacking - not too many items that give both aspd and damage output. Wit's End is an option instead of Malady in that regard - mid-tier cost for both speed and damage. Just depends on whether you actually need more magic resist or not (because I usually get Banshee...) Last Whisper is great too. Exe also nice for the anti-heal (Trynd etc.) and Crit chance... lots of options by the time you get there. Even when Sword of the Occult once for lulz and damage.
At the end of the day she's kinda more player-skill dependent than item dependent, anyways - the differences in builds seem pretty marginal.
In a strictly economical sense, there is no beating an Infinity+LW combo. IE+LW will always win compared to a BR+x. Of course, this does not mean you have to go IE+LW every game on Ashe. But if you're playing to win, you run with a 5 man premade who understand that they have to protect their carry and you fulfill your role as Physical Ranged DPS, you go IE+LW. In a pug, where you may or may not have to adjust your role depending on who you play with, BR+Malady may be a better build because you need more survivability via leech life, cause I definitely understand that IE+LW leaves you rather frail to ganks.
Whenever I chime it, I just advocate what's most optimal. But still play to your own style and however you want to do.
Wit's End is a terribad item. I wouldn't bother with it.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:13 mrgerry wrote:
Naw man Ashe is boring as hell I solo with Teemo
Dorans Shield --> Stinger/Berserker Greaves --> Phage --> Last Whisper --> Infinity been working wonders for me. I saw someone awhile ago use it, "ch33sy" i think -_- Needed a break from all the singed i play. You can really abuse the fact that people really hate Teemo and are over aggressive against him ^_^
edit: okay im back to studying i suck.
ch33sy was Doran's shield => Stinger => Boots => Infinity => Greaves => LW. He didn't build phage normally. Stinger was a very nice fit for Teemo, +IAS and -CD, meaning you could Blinding Shot more often, which is invaluable in a solo mid situation.
Running Teemo with Exhaust is just BM... lol
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I went Wit's End once because I needed MR, that's all ^^ +42 damage, good attack speed, and MR isn't shabby when you've finished Banshee but are facing 4-5 nukers all hell-bent on killing you.
It's definitely a playstyle issue, as I mentioned earlier. I play a map control gank Ashe with the intent of building good DPS as I go, and that tends to leave me succeptible to flanks and kamikaze ganks even with Clairvoyance. I used to rush Infinity when I played farm/carry Ashe. It was nice. It was kinda boring. And I also died a lot, like every single fight. Which wasn't too bad if we took out enemies but I found myself losing out on DPS to Yi/Trynd/Trist etc. and got fed up trying to out-carry them. I mean the physical barrier with Ashe is the fact that her skills are 1) a movement slow 2) an AoE damage slow 3) an stun/slow AoE. By contrast Yi gets an ult that buffs his attack speed by like 50% (and cancels snares) on top of the 10? percent double-attack, and the +35 or so natural damage buff, Trynd gets damage/crit/critdamage as he hits, Trist has a skill that gives her like 100% attack speed... I just don't see a point in playing Ashe as a pure DPSer if there're better heroes at doing that. That's all ;p
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I ended up against their premade when all the ELO's were set to 1650 so it was awhile ago I just remembered the basics of it. Usually in situations like that I just watch how they play and take what I can from it.
I really enjoy Phage since it makes chasing ez pz and its pretty cheap for the extra hp and damage tagged along with it. I used to like exhaust but I've come to love Rally. Lot of my early game kills are from baiting ppl into a brush then pop my rally and go ape shit on them. I'll try that order but I've found building up his attack speed and having that slow early you still hit quite hard. Usually if I get a solo at 20-25 min mark I have Doran's Shield through Last Whisper built.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:28 Southlight wrote:
I went Wit's End once because I needed MR, that's all ^^ +42 damage, good attack speed, and MR isn't shabby when you've finished Banshee but are facing 4-5 nukers all hell-bent on killing you.
It's definitely a playstyle issue, as I mentioned earlier. I play a map control gank Ashe with the intent of building good DPS as I go, and that tends to leave me succeptible to flanks and kamikaze ganks even with Clairvoyance. I used to rush Infinity when I played farm/carry Ashe. It was nice. It was kinda boring. And I also died a lot, like every single fight. Which wasn't too bad if we took out enemies but I found myself losing out on DPS to Yi/Trynd/Trist etc. and got fed up trying to out-carry them. I mean the physical barrier with Ashe is the fact that her skills are 1) a movement slow 2) an AoE damage slow 3) an stun/slow AoE. By contrast Yi gets an ult that buffs his attack speed by like 50% (and cancels snares) on top of the 10? percent double-attack, and the +35 or so natural damage buff, Trynd gets damage/crit/critdamage as he hits, Trist has a skill that gives her like 100% attack speed... I just don't see a point in playing Ashe as a pure DPSer if there're better heroes at doing that. That's all ;p
Hybrid items in general are bad and that's the category Wit's End falls under. If you need more MR, you go Guardian Angel. If you +IAS, you get LW. It's the fact that Wit's End tries to do two things on opposite spectrums that make it bad. If you need MR, get MR. Don't try to get a little MR and some other unnecessary bonuses.
I'll agree that Ashe has phased out and there are a handful of better DPS in the game atm. Ashe still has better initiating than the other champions you just listed. But regardless, what I said still stands.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:36 mrgerry wrote:
I ended up against their premade when all the ELO's were set to 1650 so it was awhile ago I just remembered the basics of it. Usually in situations like that I just watch how they play and take what I can from it.
I really enjoy Phage since it makes chasing ez pz and its pretty cheap for the extra hp and damage tagged along with it. I used to like exhaust but I've come to love Rally. Lot of my early game kills are from baiting ppl into a brush then pop my rally and go ape shit on them. I'll try that order but I've found building up his attack speed and having that slow early you still hit quite hard. Usually if I get a solo at 20-25 min mark I have Doran's Shield through Last Whisper built.
Oh definitely, phage procs are nice for chasing. I typically play a very streamline role for the teams I play on. If you're DPS, fulfill your role, your team will do the rest. If your team is ahead, then straight damage is the way to go. If you're getting ganked and need more surviability, I can definitely advise getting a phage. +HP, slow proc, +dmg. Everything a physical DPS needs. And it builds into something better.
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Yup, Ashe is a great initiator and map control character (solo mid -> good farm -> you're superior to most heroes for a long period of time), that's why I play her the weird way I do.
I don't know if I agree with you on hybrid items; if they were, then Aegis of the Legion and Rod of Ages would both fall under the "bad" category, among a host of other things. Wit's End is a pretty nice situational tier-2 item IMO, even if I don't actually use it myself (usually Banshee is enough).
Edit:
Incidentally I played with gerry a long, long time ago with Ashe, I think I went Edge first, and I kept dying because I tried to gank. I still play the ganking style (obviously have improved tons since then), I just changed my item build, rune set, and summoner skill to accommodate it. 
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Add me if you wanna game I'm not bad, i got a final in 3 hours so I will prolly play a few games after. SpudBoy is alias. NOW IM ACTUALLY STUDYING.
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so yeah, just to repeat what some of the other guys have said here:
Philosopher's stone just slows you down to getting damage... with 2 health pots and teleport, there's almost no reason for you to be getting health regen. as for mana, you basically need to conserve enough for your ult and a few frost shots, which means you use volley judiciously.
I used to go lifesteal -> malady, but lifesteal requires you to autoattack constantly. your damage scales similarly up to your first item, but after that your dps doesn't nearly increase as much.
Getting a banshee's veil early delays your damage by far too long.
madred's bloodrazor simply doens't dps as much as a straight damage item.
Basically once you have greaves, 2x avarice, infinity edge, you're looking at 150 dmg per shot, 350 on crits around 50% of the time. Most champions won't have that much armor at this point, and if your team keeps you alive, you already have game-ending dps. In team fights, your role is to take out Twitch/Tristana/Ashe/Yi/Jax in as few seconds as possible while avoiding being targeted yourself. It helps that once you start attacking them, there's almost no way they can escape on their own.
Ashe depends on having your team in between you and their team and using slow to keep it that way. A good Trynd will wreck me 100% of the time, and a good shaco or fiddlestix will ruin my day.
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also, if ashe is outdated, which carries are top tier now? don't have the IP/runes to play more than one role currently =/
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I have no idea why anyone would ever build nasus as a tank. running around with your ult + ghost on and 2-3 shotting most people is just too fun. all you need is infinity edge/sheen and you do 1.1k-1.5k per stick whack depending on how well you farmed SS. He is like a yi/tryndamere that isnt a glass carry, very durable even without any survivability. once you get emblem --> starks he is just a monster(even better if you have a sivir to save you this item, which you can just go frozen mallet instead)
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With BR you do around 100-110 damage per shot, crits for about 200, and you get an extra 40-80 damage (midgame) to non-tanks. Alone. Not to mention you get 40% attack speed more than just IE and Greaves. DPS BR vs IE is pretty similar, if not leaning more toward BR. Difference comes in after you get LW - the DPS from IE/LW is far superior to pretty much anything BR/X can do (maybe not double 4% BR, but I've not tried and I probably won't try), which we've already gone over - I prefer getting mobility (Zeal) or anti-stun (Banshee) than going for a more glass-cannon build because I start ganking around level 8-9 (unless I'm absolutely thrashing mid-lane).
Teleport and two health pots means you have to play extremely defensive against the majority of heroes/good players. I play extremely aggressive, abusing my regular shot range + passive (which is > almost every other hero) and Volley damage + cooldown to pressure down opponents. It's allllllllllll playstyle. Which Neo and I agreed was the case. Right about the only hero that bothers me is Teemo because I think the shooting distance differential is either nonexistant or negligible, and is compounded by Teemo's ridiculous attack animation. You can't hit and run against Teemo, and that annoys me. But against a decent Teemo player two pots probably isn't going to be enough anyways.
Edit:
Heroes that have DPS skills (usually attack speed) are almost always going to be superior to heroes without. As mentioned, Trist, Yi, Trynd, and Twitch are the FotM DPS carries. Shaco can also be brutal, especially because of his mirror image. To an extent, Jax also. All heroes that, because of their innate DPS-mode skills, can and will out-DPS Ashe pretty badly. And they're not exactly very rare to see in games. Nidalee might or might not be at that point (because of her heal giving 60% attack speed).
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yay math:
assuming 70 base damage, 15% passive crit, 0.7 attacks/second
target takes 40 bonus damage from madred's
target has equal magic resist and armor
BR = (100 + (15% crit) + 40 magic dmg) * 1 attack/second = 155 dps
IE = (150 + (35% crit)) * 0.7 attacks/second = 160 dps
so with nothing else, it's pretty much the same. however:
1. +crit dmg runes make a huge difference
2. +crit% like avarice blades makes IE dps a lot more
3. if you're chasing with slow and not firing at every cooldown, then the extra attack speed from madred's is not going to use.
4. finally, IE scales much much better as you get another damage item (whether it's +dmg, +crit%, +AS, or -armor).
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On December 22 2009 03:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
But on Corki, I still prefer Trinity Force first. The 3 pieces are easier to build and give more benefits than a BF Sword, cause c'mon, Corki attacks pretty damn slow. You insta-gib enemies because of his 4 AOE spells, not so much his auto attack. Then a fully built Trinity gives you a good slow proc, amongst other things.
My main problem with trinity force is that it takes ages to build up, and by itself, only the sheen is particularly useful. Trinity force doesn't work with gatling gun, with is frankly his best skill going into the mid/late game. Attack speed isn't a big a factor as you'd think, as a lot of the time you only get a chance to fire a few shots before they pull out of range, or you have to.
As for the other carries, yi, tryndamere, twitch, tristana and corki are the main ones I've seen recently.
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