|
United States22883 Posts
On April 01 2010 01:15 KOFgokuon wrote:
definitely
If you can't make it to the pinnacle then you aren't one of the greatest, I don't see how that's arguable
What? Because the #1 player ever and one of the best teams ever denied you twice in a row, that doesn't qualify you? Whereas the Spurs mopping up the Knicks does?[/QUOTE]
Karl Malone is arguably the second best player of his generation, and it's really only a two man race between him and Olajuwon.
|
He couldn't make it past Jordan, he couldn't make it past the jail blazers, before the finals years he couldn't make it past the super sonics, or the rockets, or the clyde drexler blazers, at what point do you stop making excuses for someone playing against top competition and just admit that he just enough?
And in what generation exactly was he the second best player?
|
Karl Malone peaked as a playoff performer in 1988, when the Jazz almost knocked off the eventual champion Lakers and he embarrassed A.C. Green on a nightly basis. After that, there were enormous expectations on him and Malone was never great at handling pressure. The 2 finals he lost weren't all his fault, though. He had one of the greatest defensive players of all time on him, and still kept his team in it (he absolutely abused Rodman in game 5 of the '98 series). The real problem for the Jazz was John Stockton, who was hideous in those Bulls-Jazz series but always gets a free pass.
As for Malone being the second best player of his era, he's light years behind Hakeem. Some big Hakeem playoff moments off the top of my head:
-Running wild on the '86 Lakers for 40, 35, and 30 in the last 3 games of their series. The 30 would have been more, but he got ejected for slugging Mitch Kupchak early in the 4th.
-8 blocks in a game in the '86 finals, which I believe was a record until Dwight got 9 last year.
-49 point, 25 rebound, 6 block performance in an elimination game vs. Seattle in '87.
-Averaging 38/17 vs. the Mavericks in '88.
-10 blocks in a game vs. the '90 Lakers.
-I'll save Spurs fans some grief by not going into detail: '95 Western Conference Finals.
Hakeem won a title with Otis Thorpe as best teammate, winning a series against a team specifically designed to stop superstars. The next year he won it again without home court advantage in any series. It doesn't really matter that MJ was busy battling the Mendoza line during those years; the Rockets were 5-1 vs. the Bulls during Chicago's first threepeat, and no team anchored by Bill Cartwright in the middle could win 4 out of 7 against Olajuwon.
If we take Malone's era to mean his prime years, say 1988-1998, this would be my top 5:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Charles Barkley
4) Scottie Pippen
5) Karl Malone
|
Amare is playing like an absolute beast again... he is putting people on posters on a nightly basis!
|
It's hard for me to take Charles Barkley seriously when he had so many years of being lazy in practice, showing up out of shape, and not playing to the best of his ability. His peak performance was definitely really high quality, but he didn't take the game seriously enough
|
I'm so glad you put Scottie on that list. People really forget how much dominant he was with and without MJ.
|
On April 01 2010 03:44 KOFgokuon wrote:
It's hard for me to take Charles Barkley seriously when he had so many years of being lazy in practice, showing up out of shape, and not playing to the best of his ability. His peak performance was definitely really high quality, but he didn't take the game seriously enough
I have no counterargument to that...he was indeed fat and lazy. All I can say is that he still consistently raised his game in the playoffs, while Malone regressed. Charles rolled into the '93 finals with a better team (brimming with confidence since he was the MVP and playing great) and home court advantage. Then the Suns' second best player and floor leader came up with these vintage performances in the first two games:
Game 1: 4-13, 11 pts, 2 reb, 2 ast, 5 turnovers
Game 2: 2-8, 4 pts, 0 reb, 6 ast, 4 turnovers
Chuck put up 42/13 in game 2, and they lost by 3 points. Kevin Johnson really blew that series and I don't think Barkley ever had the same fire again. They had the Rockets on the ropes the next two years and let the series slip away in 7 each time.
|
United States22883 Posts
On April 01 2010 01:46 KOFgokuon wrote:
He couldn't make it past Jordan, he couldn't make it past the jail blazers, before the finals years he couldn't make it past the super sonics, or the rockets, or the clyde drexler blazers, at what point do you stop making excuses for someone playing against top competition and just admit that he just enough?
And in what generation exactly was he the second best player? First of all, this argument is just stupid. See Dan Marino, Elgin Baylor, etc.
On April 01 2010 03:14 city42 wrote:
-Running wild on the '86 Lakers for 40, 35, and 30 in the last 3 games of their series. The 30 would have been more, but he got ejected for slugging Mitch Kupchak early in the 4th.
-8 blocks in a game in the '86 finals, which I believe was a record until Dwight got 9 last year.
-49 point, 25 rebound, 6 block performance in an elimination game vs. Seattle in '87.
-Averaging 38/17 vs. the Mavericks in '88.
-10 blocks in a game vs. the '90 Lakers.
-I'll save Spurs fans some grief by not going into detail: '95 Western Conference Finals.
Hakeem won a title with Otis Thorpe as best teammate, winning a series against a team specifically designed to stop superstars. The next year he won it again without home court advantage in any series. It doesn't really matter that MJ was busy battling the Mendoza line during those years; the Rockets were 5-1 vs. the Bulls during Chicago's first threepeat, and no team anchored by Bill Cartwright in the middle could win 4 out of 7 against Olajuwon.
If we take Malone's era to mean his prime years, say 1988-1998, this would be my top 5:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Charles Barkley
4) Scottie Pippen
5) Karl Malone I'll give you Olajuwon over Malone because of C vs. PF, but in the playoffs Malone had multiple 40+ games, over a dozen 35+, and some 20+ rebounding nights. Being a PF that couldn't jump, he never had more than 5 blocks but I'm pretty sure he came close to a triple double a few times off assists.
Would you really take the 2-5 from the 93 Rockets over that of any of the Jazz teams? The fact that they made the playoffs 18 straight times is a testament to Malone and Jerry Sloan. Outside of Stockton, I'll take Otis Thorpe, who was a great defender and I think an all star at one point, over Hornacek.
The regular season record doesn't mean anything. The Bulls dismantled the Heat, Knicks and Magic, all teams built around a dominant center. I think the craziest thing here is that you think the Rockets would've taken the Bulls.
|
A lot of surprises this year as the season heads off to playoffs:
West: The Suns making the playoffs with Nash having one of the best years with Stoudemaire and good role players, the Jazz being the third seed and dominating at away games, the Thunder about to make their first playoffs (hopefully, not official yet).
East: I doubt the Celtics can come back to the finals, they just seem old and pathetic now (i.e against the Spurs), the Bucks making a nice run, the Bobcats are pretty close as well, maybe some more later
|
On April 01 2010 04:08 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 01:46 KOFgokuon wrote:
He couldn't make it past Jordan, he couldn't make it past the jail blazers, before the finals years he couldn't make it past the super sonics, or the rockets, or the clyde drexler blazers, at what point do you stop making excuses for someone playing against top competition and just admit that he just enough?
And in what generation exactly was he the second best player? First of all, this argument is just stupid. See Dan Marino, Elgin Baylor, etc.
It's the same argument for Marino, but the circumstances are completely different. Marino doesn't play defense, so he can't control that half of the game. Malone played both ends of the court, as did Baylor. Sure, they're in the conversation for the greatest, but given two players that were both great on offense, both great on defense, but one won 4 titles and the other one didn't, can you really say the second is better?
|
On April 01 2010 04:08 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 01:46 KOFgokuon wrote:
He couldn't make it past Jordan, he couldn't make it past the jail blazers, before the finals years he couldn't make it past the super sonics, or the rockets, or the clyde drexler blazers, at what point do you stop making excuses for someone playing against top competition and just admit that he just enough?
And in what generation exactly was he the second best player? First of all, this argument is just stupid. See Dan Marino, Elgin Baylor, etc. Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 03:14 city42 wrote:
-Running wild on the '86 Lakers for 40, 35, and 30 in the last 3 games of their series. The 30 would have been more, but he got ejected for slugging Mitch Kupchak early in the 4th.
-8 blocks in a game in the '86 finals, which I believe was a record until Dwight got 9 last year.
-49 point, 25 rebound, 6 block performance in an elimination game vs. Seattle in '87.
-Averaging 38/17 vs. the Mavericks in '88.
-10 blocks in a game vs. the '90 Lakers.
-I'll save Spurs fans some grief by not going into detail: '95 Western Conference Finals.
Hakeem won a title with Otis Thorpe as best teammate, winning a series against a team specifically designed to stop superstars. The next year he won it again without home court advantage in any series. It doesn't really matter that MJ was busy battling the Mendoza line during those years; the Rockets were 5-1 vs. the Bulls during Chicago's first threepeat, and no team anchored by Bill Cartwright in the middle could win 4 out of 7 against Olajuwon.
If we take Malone's era to mean his prime years, say 1988-1998, this would be my top 5:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Hakeem Olajuwon
3) Charles Barkley
4) Scottie Pippen
5) Karl Malone I'll give you Olajuwon over Malone because of C vs. PF, but in the playoffs Malone had multiple 40+ games, over a dozen 35+, and some 20+ rebounding nights. Being a PF that couldn't jump, he never had more than 5 blocks but I'm pretty sure he came close to a triple double a few times off assists. Would you really take the 2-5 from the 93 Rockets over that of any of the Jazz teams? The fact that they made the playoffs 18 straight times is a testament to Malone and Jerry Sloan. Outside of Stockton, I'll take Otis Thorpe, who was a great defender and I think an all star at one point, over Hornacek. The regular season record doesn't mean anything. The Bulls dismantled the Heat, Knicks and Magic, all teams built around a dominant center. I think the craziest thing here is that you think the Rockets would've taken the Bulls.
Oh, if you want to go into big scoring games in the playoffs, Malone will get embarrassed by Hakeem. All the great scoring games I listed for Hakeem were before he even had an offensive game (save for the Admiral series). He was just a young, super-athletic guy with anger management issues who scored all his baskets on dunks and awkward turnarounds. When he re-discovered Islam and calmed himself down to concentrate on his game more, he destroyed everyone in his wake in the playoffs. You're forgetting that the Rockets beat the Jazz in their two title runs (one year with home court, one year without). I'm not going to pull up all the box scores, but Karl was outplayed handily by the Dream in both series.
Also, Hornacek wasn't Karl Malone's only good third banana. Jeff Malone was a very consistent scorer for the Jazz in the early 90s in a very wide open Western Conference, but they didn't win anything. Karl always had 2 good teammates to rely on, while Hakeem had Thorpe (who wasn't exactly a prime time playoff performer) and........that's about it. The '86 Rockets team was hastily dismantled, with Sampson getting hurt + traded, Lloyd/Wiggins/Lucas suspended for cocaine, McCray and Petersen regressing, and so forth. They were in prime position to dominate the west for a long time, and the failure of that team impeded Olajuwon's progress significantly.
I think the craziest thing here is that you actually think the Bulls did particularly great against teams with good centers. Aside from the struggles vs. Houston which you refuse to acknowledge, the Bulls were tested more by the Knicks in the early 90s than by any other team. They had an absolute slugfest of a 7 game series in 1992, and a 6 game series in 1993 which would have gone to 7 if Charles Smith didn't get blocked 12 times on the last possession of the game. The 1995 Magic had more trouble with the Pacers than they did with the Bulls; Shaq didn't even play his best game and they still overwhelmed Chicago. If you want to point to MJ's rustiness as an excuse for the Bulls losing that series, then I have a counter for the Magic losing in 1996. Horace Grant (still all-NBA defense level) hurt himself early in game 1, tried to play through it, and ended up missing the end of game 1 + the rest of the series. Grant was their floor leader and knew the Bulls better than anyone, not to mention he was a 10+ rebound guy who would not be afraid to go at it inside with Rodman. Oh, and Jordan went 1-4 vs. the Spurs in 1991-1993 as well.
EDIT: Let me clarify...I'm not trying to undervalue MJ's greatness or say that the Rockets would have swept the Bulls. I think it would be a damn good series, but having seen quite a few games of both during this era, I truly believe the Rockets would win in 6 or 7. Also, I didn't even mention the biggest case of a good big man taking it to the Bulls. When that 72-10 team marched into the finals, MJ wasn't even the best player on the court! Shawn Kemp ran circles around the partied out Rodman and Luc Longley, averaging something like 25/12 on 65% shooting. If George Karl didn't wait 4 games to put Gary Payton on MJ, the Sonics had a legitimate chance at winning that series because no one could deal with Kemp.
|
I think aside from Jordan, Hakeem is definitely the top player from the mid 80's through the late 90's hands down. I agree with adam's list, it's a pretty good one.
In terms of the decade after that (from 1998 to 2008), I'd go with:
1) Shaq
2) Duncan
3) Kobe
4) Iverson
**the 5th is really tough for me, and a tossup between the following *
5) Steve Nash / Garnett / Dirk / Jason Kidd / (probably someone else I'm forgetting) .
I think it should be KG though I'd probably lean on him over Nash slightly.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not putting LeBron on the list and I don't think anyone should because he really only became dominant starting in 2007.. and I don't think it's fair to put someone who had 2 years of playing really well in a 10 year period on an "all decade" list. Especially because 2007 he led a team to the finals that got demolished in one of the most one-sided series ever (although LeBron's supporting cast was HORRIBLE).. and the bonked the playoffs in 08 except for that one insane game where he and Pierce went for 45 and he tried to hero Clevland back into it but failed.
So ya, nobody is allowed to put LeBron on their list :p
It's also really interesting to note that the Lakers really had two of the 3 most dominant players in the decade and only won three titles. It's such a shame because they should have won 6-7 titles but couldn't contain the egos of Kobe or Shaq. Although the Lakers have made the finals 5 times from 2000-2009 (winning 4) which is pretty damn impressive oo!
|
On April 01 2010 05:50 Xeris wrote:I think aside from Jordan, Hakeem is definitely the top player from the mid 80's through the late 90's hands down. I agree with adam's list, it's a pretty good one. In terms of the decade after that (from 1998 to 2008), I'd go with: 1) Shaq 2) Duncan 3) Kobe 4) Iverson **the 5th is really tough for me, and a tossup between the following * 5) Steve Nash / Garnett / Dirk / Jason Kidd / (probably someone else I'm forgetting) . I think it should be KG though I'd probably lean on him over Nash slightly. + Show Spoiler +
I'm not putting LeBron on the list and I don't think anyone should because he really only became dominant starting in 2007.. and I don't think it's fair to put someone who had 2 years of playing really well in a 10 year period on an "all decade" list. Especially because 2007 he led a team to the finals that got demolished in one of the most one-sided series ever (although LeBron's supporting cast was HORRIBLE).. and the bonked the playoffs in 08 except for that one insane game where he and Pierce went for 45 and he tried to hero Clevland back into it but failed.
So ya, nobody is allowed to put LeBron on their list :p
It's also really interesting to note that the Lakers really had two of the 3 most dominant players in the decade and only won three titles. It's such a shame because they should have won 6-7 titles but couldn't contain the egos of Kobe or Shaq. Although the Lakers have made the finals 5 times from 2000-2009 (winning 4) which is pretty damn impressive oo!
Funny enough, you just reminded me about something with Karl Malone with those Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I think the greatest accomplishment of his career was that he totally swallowed his pride and became the perfect role player for that L.A. team, a tough low-post guy who was as strong as an ox and never tried to do anything he couldn't do at his age. If his knee didn't finally give in, he definitely would have held Ben Wallace off enough for the Lakers to win that '04 title. He gave up a sure chance at Kareem's scoring record for that title, and his body betrayed him...really a pity.
I agree with your list of this era (maybe Tim > Shaq but they are really close) and I might give that #5 nod to Kidd because those NJ teams were really, really, really bad and he somehow got them to the finals. They won 52 games with K-Mart and Van Horn in their top 3, that's not possible! Then again, their conference was at its all time worst in those years.
|
Yea that's kinda why I put Kidd in there (and I really wanted to put Shaq = Duncan because I think it's kinda hard to differentiate between who's "better" between those two because they were both so insanely dominant). And yes the 04 Lakers were possibly the best team assembled on paper since Celtics dream teams of the 70's or early 80's ... 4 hall of famers on one team?! It's just such a shame that season was just so injury ridden. You had Karl Malone who pretty much was NEVER injured throughout his whole career missing 30+ games, GP missing some, Shaq and Kobe each missing 15-20. That team could have easily won 3-4 in a row (GP stayed effective for 3 more years, Malone could have played until he was 40-42, and Shaq wasn't washed up yet, and Kobe was just about to start hitting his prime). Such a damn shame T__T!
I agree with Kidd that's why I put him on there, although aside from getting to the finals twice in a terrible Eastern Conference (although he had horrible teams himself getting there), I don't think he's done very much except be a triple double machine. KG won the 08 title and took Minnesota deep into the playoffs once... Nash was a 2 time MVP, Dirk got to the finals (played beastly but still lost it) and an MVP... hard to pick one out of that group as a definitive 5th imo. Each can make a really strong argument.
|
Credit to those New Jersey teams rests mostly with Byron Scott showing them how to win. Kidd was of course a major factor but when he started bitching well...yea. Look what happened.
|
city42, dropping knowledge
I remember the Magic-Pacer series and the eventual obliteration of the Magic by the Rockets; its what got me into the NBA.
|
Yea, Hakeem was an absolute beast.
|
GP sucked in the 2004 playoffs. The lakers pretty much got swept that finals, even with motivation (which is basically ~Shaq, and he had some monster games in his losses), they probably would have lost vs an extremely motivated, Larry Brown coached, semi-hand check abusing Pistons.
|
The 04 finals are my favorite
|
Lakers Hawks, their biggest test left.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
