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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On April 16 2014 15:12 Kyuukyuu wrote: overrated: ganon. this dude sucks. maybe dr mario too underrated: yoshi/luigi You are more knowledgable about smash than I am, but I must ask, what makes you say Ganon and Dr M are overrated? Kage makes Ganon look (relatively) viable. | ||
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plzrelax_
25 Posts
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Nickemwit
United States253 Posts
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Reuental
United States457 Posts
On April 17 2014 01:05 Mokumo wrote: Captain Falcon is pretty overrated too. I played mew2king maybe a month ago and he was trying to convince me that he "isn't viable". =\ I am almost completely new to competitive smash, but I was watching the mango vs armada vods and one of the commentators said that mew2king once said that jigglypuff isn't viable. Honestly from the little information I have gathered mew2king seems a lot like idra. Even though I am a newbie, it is extremely apparent that melee is a hyper complex game, and chances are its not even close to completely figured out. Hell BW still has new builds and strategies even to this day, and that game has had way more work put into it than melee. I think its pretty dangerous to downright say that anybody in the top 3 tiers are not viable, especially as one as fast as Falcon. | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On April 16 2014 23:32 darthfoley wrote: You are more knowledgable about smash than I am, but I must ask, what makes you say Ganon and Dr M are overrated? Kage makes Ganon look (relatively) viable. The problem with dr. mario is that he has no real killing move and takes a lot of subtly to approach someone. That being said, I've seen some dirty docs in tournaments and I always get scared when someone pulls him out because I know they will be good with him. His cape is so janky and he combos well, but usually you can just absorb the blows then punish him for being too close. Ive never felt ganon was a real threat, though that may be because back when I played he was considered low tier. Unless you are a very technical player that can animation cancel every move and also have the courage to fight off the stage to spike people every kill, you will have a hard time playing him. Luigi and Yoshi are too floaty and they have hard time linking combos. I guess both of them have a pretty long wavedash, so its easy to move around well, but usually you can just trade blow for blow until they get off the stage then edgeguard them until they have no more stocks. That being said, Melee is the special type of game where if you are good enough, you can really use any character you want as long as you put in the time. Cpt. Falcon is high risk/reward style of play. He has a relatively bad recovery, short grab and almost uncontrollably quick movement speed; however, if you have the technical skill to string together a combo, you can kill someone from 0%. Just don't miss that knee when you kamakasi, lol. If you play him well, he can easily compete with any other character. As for my personal preferences, I use Ice Climbers as my main and I think they are the most underrated. I mean, every match is 2v1 so you automatically are ahead, right? lol But srsly, wobble/disjoint are not that hard to do. If I grab you, you are losing a stock. | ||
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plzrelax_
25 Posts
Sure, he struggles against the spacies and sheik, and his recovery is ass, but he definitely has it way better than other characters. He's very momentum based, so when he falls, he falls hard. | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
Like, if the person using him is having a good day, then he feels untouchable. But once the johns start coming out its all over lol. | ||
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Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
On the other hand everyone knows how to deal with Fox and has Fox experience and he is probably one of the most common characters you will find yourself playing against, but it's very easy to tell the bad foxes from the good foxes. He has so many options opened to him it sometimes seems like there's not that much that he's missing to be a "full" character. On April 17 2014 01:35 Reuental wrote: + Show Spoiler + I am almost completely new to competitive smash, but I was watching the mango vs armada vods and one of the commentators said that mew2king once said that jigglypuff isn't viable. Honestly from the little information I have gathered mew2king seems a lot like idra. Even though I am a newbie, it is extremely apparent that melee is a hyper complex game, and chances are its not even close to completely figured out. Hell BW still has new builds and strategies even to this day, and that game has had way more work put into it than melee. I think its pretty dangerous to downright say that anybody in the top 3 tiers are not viable, especially as one as fast as Falcon. Mew2King is not like Idra. He is a top player i.e top 5 in the world uncontested unlike Idra. When he said Jigglypuff isn't viable he isn't completely wrong. If you look at his performance against top Jigglypuff players, he almost never loses to them. He has way more wins over Hungrybox than vice versa. He has figured the character out and knows what they want to do and therefore is able to counter that strategy and win. There is only so much a Jigglypuff can do given her moveset with B-air being the most abusable and safe option. Yes Melee is super complex and it's not completely figured out but a lot of it has been. I will even go back to Mew2King in for this. Mew2King personally went out and found ALL of the frame data for every single character and more. He has posted all of his findings online and you can see them if you want. Mind you this was before a good emulator for the game came out, so he was doing this playing on two controllers. Also sometimes it's sometimes hard to consider any character being viable or not but then again tier lists aren't concrete. It is likely that the one currently up with be reviewed again soon. If that were to happen I wouldn't be surprised to see ICs, Luigi, and Yoshi going up | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
I'm Falcon main though so i'm biased :D | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On April 17 2014 02:25 Shinshady wrote: If you look at his performance against top Jigglypuff players, he almost never loses to them. He has way more wins over Hungrybox than vice versa. This was utterly false until last year. M2K always lost to HBox until The Big House 3. Ofc, when Mew2king says someone is "viable" or not, he means "is it viable for players who want to be #1 in the world." He probably bases "viability" off "what sort of options does this character have in each situation?" Fox and Falco definitely have the most options in most situations: they have fast moves out of shield, good combos, good kill moves, good edgeguards, etc. Even their recoveries are above average; their only problem is that they're easy to combo, but ideally you play well (and fast) enough that you just don't get hit. Falcon and Puff don't have many of the options that Falco/Fox have. M2K is probably the reason why Hax switched to Fox, lol -_- | ||
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Omnishroud
1073 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
Jiggs is 100% viable, Mango became #1 using her and HBox is top 5 (was higher, esp after Armada retired). Jiggs nation tbqh | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 17 2014 05:42 Jaaaaasper wrote: M2K is the least idra like guy I have ever seen in smash. He has got to have the most game knowledge of any pro in any game. He did more for the average smasher understanding melee than anyone else, its just absurd how much time he puts into figuring out things about smash, and then putting it out for everyone. I might not let him stay at my house for a tourney, but I would love to talk to him about how the game works. He basically said that most of these tests he did were useless and a waste of time  | ||
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On April 17 2014 06:14 Jumperer wrote: M2K is the idra of smash scene. I dunno man he actually is one of the best in the world, and didn't bitch about his chars being underpowered for years to suddenly find out that he was sitting on the most broken thing in the game and still bitch about balance. M2K can actually walk the walk, not just qq and rage at people better than him. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
Falcon is really good. Obviously he is at a great disadvantage vs characters like fox and falco but at this point in the meta game the disadvantages isn't big enough to make him nonviable. In the future this might be the case, if people always get perfect punishes all the time and never gets hit by falcon. Puff is really good vs every character but has a hard time on stages like FD and PS vs a Fox that decides to play really campy. The matchup is almost even if the Fox player never lasers. Luigi is underrated. Jabreset into up-b is like playing puff. Marth is secretly amazing (as in top 2 in the game amazing). Never listen to anything M2K says regarding matchups. | ||
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Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
On April 17 2014 05:17 ffadicted wrote: M2K constantly got wrecked by Mango's jiggs and used to lose quite a bit to HBox too lol Idk where you're coming from at all. Jiggs is 100% viable, Mango became #1 using her and HBox is top 5 (was higher, esp after Armada retired). Jiggs nation tbqh Talking about M2K getting wrecked about Mango's Jiggs is fine but remember the fact that this happened 4 years ago. Yes I am wrong about him almost never/not losing to them up until recently as ]343[ has stated. I find that Jiggs is a really good character, mainly if you have one of your best kill options open to you her rest. Yes there are lots of rest setups and it is godlike when coupled on a stage like Dreamland as well but it can be risky to throw out when a punish will come afterwards. As said this can kind of be mitigated by stage choice, but lots of players will ban Dreamland against Jiggs. I find Jiggs is like a snowball character. When she's ahead or even with an opponent she's godlike and creates lots of pressure on your opponent to not make mistakes. When she's behind it's harder to make a comeback with her that you see with other characters around her tier list. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Its just the skillcap is really high (and we still arn't there yet) so you can always just be "better" than your opponnent | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On April 17 2014 08:11 Zoler wrote: My opinions as a high level player: Falcon is really good. Obviously he is at a great disadvantage vs characters like fox and falco but at this point in the meta game the disadvantages isn't big enough to make him nonviable. In the future this might be the case, if people always get perfect punishes all the time and never gets hit by falcon. Puff is really good vs every character but has a hard time on stages like FD and PS vs a Fox that decides to play really campy. The matchup is almost even if the Fox player never lasers. Luigi is underrated. Jabreset into up-b is like playing puff. Marth is secretly amazing (as in top 2 in the game amazing). Never listen to anything M2K says regarding matchups. I know there is a questions thread, but seeing as you alluded to it, what exactly is a jab reset? Or, say, a double jump cancel (I've heard it talked about with Ness). Speaking of which, I really like Ness. It's a shame the consensus is that he's shit. I'm sure it's the case, but he's fun to play with and who doesn't love PK Thunder and his bat? | ||
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