We have created an irc channel (#tl-smash on Quakenet) for people to find others to play with on Dolphin or just to chat about Smash. Feel free to join!
On December 04 2013 14:08 julianto wrote: It seems to me that project m WILL be better than SSB4 game-mechanics-wise. However, the greater online pool of players for SSB4 imo will make it more enjoyable and accessible.
Yeah, this.
I'm enjoying playing Melee on Dolphin, but there's like 2000 subscribers. Compare that to the couple hundred thousand who will play SSB4.
As a community, please stop using "Sm4sh", it's retarded
On December 04 2013 13:55 Kyuukyuu wrote: To each his own, you can't get out of Fox waveshines on Stadium or most chaingrabs on FD but they seem fine. Usually only stall tactics (Peach bomber) get banned for this reason, whereas stuff that requires skill in some form to land is okay.
It's worth noting that waveshines and chaingrabs have a finite duration (stage transformation or percentage), and are only limited to a specific set of characters. Wobbling works on all the cast, has no technical discrepancies due to character weight/movement properties, and is very straightforward to execute from a technical standpoint.
On December 04 2013 13:55 Kyuukyuu wrote: To each his own, you can't get out of Fox waveshines on Stadium or most chaingrabs on FD but they seem fine. Usually only stall tactics (Peach bomber) get banned for this reason, whereas stuff that requires skill in some form to land is okay.
It's worth noting that waveshines and chaingrabs have a finite duration (stage transformation or percentage), and are only limited to a specific set of characters. Wobbling works on all the cast, has no technical discrepancies due to character weight/movement properties, and is very straightforward to execute from a technical standpoint.
1. Wobbling usually has a soft-ban on percentage. Some tourneys I've went to with wobbling allowed would generally see DQs if the IC player went past 200% or so, and players were warned beforehand. If you're being a douche with this there's going to be repercussions because then it's the same as stalling.
2. Does it matter that it works on all the cast? Why is Sheik's chaingrab less broken just because it only works on 75% of the cast instead of 100%? Should it not be banned anyway, at least in those matchups? Plus, it's even easier to execute than wobbling, and doesn't require you to position a level 3 AI!
On December 04 2013 13:55 Kyuukyuu wrote: To each his own, you can't get out of Fox waveshines on Stadium or most chaingrabs on FD but they seem fine. Usually only stall tactics (Peach bomber) get banned for this reason, whereas stuff that requires skill in some form to land is okay.
It's worth noting that waveshines and chaingrabs have a finite duration (stage transformation or percentage), and are only limited to a specific set of characters. Wobbling works on all the cast, has no technical discrepancies due to character weight/movement properties, and is very straightforward to execute from a technical standpoint.
1. Wobbling usually has a soft-ban on percentage. Some tourneys I've went to with wobbling allowed would generally see DQs if the IC player went past 200% or so, and players were warned beforehand. If you're being a douche with this there's going to be repercussions because then it's the same as stalling.
2. Does it matter that it works on all the cast? Why is Sheik's chaingrab less broken just because it only works on 75% of the cast instead of 100%? Should it not be banned anyway, at least in those matchups? Plus, it's even easier to execute than wobbling, and doesn't require you to position a level 3 AI!
1. Wobbling should be completely banned because there's no upper limit on the damage, and nothing the player being grabbed can do about it.
2. Yes, absolutely, because the impacts are far larger. Sheik's changrab is less broken because; it only works up to a certain percentage, teching can get you out of it, and DI can get you out of it.
It's fine either way, honestly. The IC matchup has always boiled down to "don't get grabbed", and that doesn't change even if you remove wobbling from the equation. On top of that, wobbling isn't inherently broken, as IC placements at tournaments don't really vary that much whether it's banned or not. I'm personally in favor of allowing it, since it doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, and it's a valid tactic. Stalling can be avoided (and often is) with a percentage limiting rule. Arguments could be made for banning it based on anti-fun or whatever, but that seems like a pretty weird thing to base a ban on.
On that note, I'm all for keeping wobbling out of PM. Considering that the ICs have all the grab setups from both melee and brawl, I'd say that's fair compensation.
On December 05 2013 03:13 Crownlol wrote: 1. Wobbling should be completely banned because there's no upper limit on the damage, and nothing the player being grabbed can do about it.
Tons of fighting games have infinites which are acceptable in tournament play. Being unable to escape a move doesn't make it a cut and dry issue.
On December 05 2013 03:44 Spazer wrote: It's fine either way, honestly. The IC matchup has always boiled down to "don't get grabbed", and that doesn't change even if you remove wobbling from the equation. On top of that, wobbling isn't inherently broken, as IC placements at tournaments don't really vary that much whether it's banned or not. I'm personally in favor of allowing it, since it doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, and it's a valid tactic. Stalling can be avoided (and often is) with a percentage limiting rule. Arguments could be made for banning it based on anti-fun or whatever, but that seems like a pretty weird thing to base a ban on.
On that note, I'm all for keeping wobbling out of PM. Considering that the ICs have all the grab setups from both melee and brawl, I'd say that's fair compensation.
On December 05 2013 03:13 Crownlol wrote: 1. Wobbling should be completely banned because there's no upper limit on the damage, and nothing the player being grabbed can do about it.
Tons of fighting games have infinites which are acceptable in tournament play. Being unable to escape a move doesn't make it a cut and dry issue.
Basically all of this. I don't like wobbling, but I'm in favour of keeping it in because I don't think there's any legitimate reason to ban it besides general whininess over a character that isn't even good.
On December 05 2013 03:44 Spazer wrote: It's fine either way, honestly. The IC matchup has always boiled down to "don't get grabbed", and that doesn't change even if you remove wobbling from the equation. On top of that, wobbling isn't inherently broken, as IC placements at tournaments don't really vary that much whether it's banned or not. I'm personally in favor of allowing it, since it doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, and it's a valid tactic. Stalling can be avoided (and often is) with a percentage limiting rule. Arguments could be made for banning it based on anti-fun or whatever, but that seems like a pretty weird thing to base a ban on.
On that note, I'm all for keeping wobbling out of PM. Considering that the ICs have all the grab setups from both melee and brawl, I'd say that's fair compensation.
On December 05 2013 03:13 Crownlol wrote: 1. Wobbling should be completely banned because there's no upper limit on the damage, and nothing the player being grabbed can do about it.
Tons of fighting games have infinites which are acceptable in tournament play. Being unable to escape a move doesn't make it a cut and dry issue.
Wobbles would not have made 2nd at EVO without Wobbling. He's a good player but it was much more reasonable for him to be able to beat Mango, PP, and Hbox with Wobbling. Handoffs on Puff especially are way more technically difficult to execute than straight Wobbling. That and being able to dodge Armada in bracket got him 2nd but he'd be at the bottom end of top 8 if it were banned at EVO.
It's not about it being an infinite. It degenerates the game into something really awful. There's a reason it was removed in PM and I'm glad it was. If it was difficult to do or situational it'd be a different debate, but it's not. When tournaments allow Wobbling, that becomes the only thing to do.
If Smash were a competitive game that was patched occasionally it'd have been thrown out but it's a relic of a past era when you had to play with what you were given. There's plenty of glitches in Brood War, a competitive game based off a lot of those kinds of glitches, that are banned in tournament. Some unintended mechanics lead to emergent, interesting, deep gameplay. Some mechanics basically turn the game into shit. Wobbling is one of those things.
On December 05 2013 03:44 Spazer wrote: It's fine either way, honestly. The IC matchup has always boiled down to "don't get grabbed", and that doesn't change even if you remove wobbling from the equation. On top of that, wobbling isn't inherently broken, as IC placements at tournaments don't really vary that much whether it's banned or not. I'm personally in favor of allowing it, since it doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, and it's a valid tactic. Stalling can be avoided (and often is) with a percentage limiting rule. Arguments could be made for banning it based on anti-fun or whatever, but that seems like a pretty weird thing to base a ban on.
On that note, I'm all for keeping wobbling out of PM. Considering that the ICs have all the grab setups from both melee and brawl, I'd say that's fair compensation.
On December 05 2013 03:13 Crownlol wrote: 1. Wobbling should be completely banned because there's no upper limit on the damage, and nothing the player being grabbed can do about it.
Tons of fighting games have infinites which are acceptable in tournament play. Being unable to escape a move doesn't make it a cut and dry issue.
Wobbles would not have made 2nd at EVO without Wobbling. He's a good player but it was much more reasonable for him to be able to beat Mango, PP, and Hbox with Wobbling. Handoffs on Puff especially are way more technically difficult to execute than straight Wobbling. That and being able to dodge Armada in bracket got him 2nd but he'd be at the bottom end of top 8 if it were banned at EVO.
It's not about it being an infinite. It degenerates the game into something really awful. There's a reason it was removed in PM and I'm glad it was. If it was difficult to do or situational it'd be a different debate, but it's not. When tournaments allow Wobbling, that becomes the only thing to do.
If Smash were a competitive game that was patched occasionally it'd have been thrown out but it's a relic of a past era when you had to play with what you were given. There's plenty of glitches in Brood War, a competitive game based off a lot of those kinds of glitches, that are banned in tournament. Some unintended mechanics lead to emergent, interesting, deep gameplay. Some mechanics basically turn the game into shit. Wobbling is one of those things.
Bam, exactly right.
Some glitches are discovered to actually increase the game, and are then added to the game (for example, L-canceling). Some glitches are stupid and would have been patched out immediately in games with actual developer support (Wobbling).
I'm pretty excited for the PM 3.0 release coming up. I just started playing smash seriously like a month ago and I'm still practicing L-cancels, but I enjoy playing PM more than I have any other smash.
Melee at MLG again would be amazing. I'm really looking forward to that if it really happens. EVO proved that the game will draw in viewers if it simply gets enough exposure; the game creates hype like no other honestly. Now if they just bring back sc2 all would be good again...
The only reason I can think of why P:M would replace Melee as the go-to smash game is because making sure every venue has CRT's is just going to get more and more difficult. P:M is very close to SSBM, but as I understand it it's not the same.
PM's main downside is that it will never be able to gain any traction in terms of being officially recognized or picked up by any big-name event. If Melee had trouble getting streaming rights at EVO, what chance does Project M have? It's going to be limited to grassroots tournaments, which isn't a terrible thing, but its growth will be limited. Right now we have Melee being picked up by MLG and EVO, having what is probably the biggest year since 2007. If Smash 4 isn't a total disappointment (and honestly I don't see how it could get worse than Brawl), that's certainly going to get a big chance with all the major tournaments as well. In such a scenario, PM can't really hope to compete past being a side event... which is a shame, really, as it's probably better than anything Nintendo will ever come up with again.
EPT
