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On February 22 2012 05:06 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 03:35 jackdaniels wrote:On February 22 2012 03:29 Merfyn wrote:On February 22 2012 03:23 Squeegy wrote:On February 22 2012 02:56 Merfyn wrote:GSL Spoilers: + Show Spoiler +Sorry, just had to post, damn, that code A dominance was awes- Oh... wait nvm, he lost to theStC and looked pretty average overall in the games he played... :D Sup elephant? Meteorite didn't hit earth yesterday, therefore metorite won't hit earth tomorrow. Im not saying that BW people will never dominate, becuase if any of the really good current BW pros, im not deniying that they will do well. However, if you look back at previous GSL threads (2012 S1 Code S day 3 for example) ALOT of people were commenting on how "Fin will destroy everyone" or "Fin advancing 1st in his group" . Hell, even today , Fin had a MASSIVE lead in the "whos going to advance poll" i think it was 25%. So considering how much hype this guy was given, and that how days before he played his games in code S people all over TL.net (this thread as well) were saying tat this guy was going to dominate EVERYONE, however once he started losing, everyone has started saying things like "Oh...well, he isnt actually an example of the elephant...bla...bla" He has really underperformed. Its because Brood War is more demanding and more macro intensive, while SC2 is less demanding and less macro intensive. The best you can do in SC2 is have good micro! I dunno tough, i think its more different rather then easier. Yea its easier to make armies but what if the sc2 players actually mastered this and can remake armies superfast? We still see pro's float to retarded lvls like 2k gas/minerals when its not requuired. So instead of 1army clash to the kill like we have now, there will be loads since the armies are so fast remade.
The entire discussion of one game being easier or harder is silly. Both games are only as easy or hard as the opponent you're playing.
If game mechanics are easier in SC2, they are easier for your opponent too, which gives him more time to be harassing you.
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On February 22 2012 04:33 Art.FeeL wrote:isnt TheStC BW player too...?
Every male in Korea is/was a BW player. Obviously no one means it like that in this discussion.
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On February 22 2012 05:28 fraktoasters wrote:Every male in Korea is/was a BW player. Obviously no one means it like that in this discussion.
Not every male in Korea was a BW player. More importantly, not every Korean male was a top BW player. And I mean by top something like top 500 or even top 1000 because of an earlier discussion.
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ForGG losing does not mean the elephant is dead--it simply means there is no evidence that supports the elephant existing.
For example--I have never set my eyes on Africa--that doesn't mean Africa does not exist. I have not seen any indication that being the better BW player has translated into being the better SC2 player. That doesn't mean it is not something that could happen provided a large enough sample size was introduced into SC2--it can still happen, there's just no evidence for it as of right now.
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On February 22 2012 07:52 lorkac wrote:
ForGG losing does not mean the elephant is dead--it simply means there is no evidence that supports the elephant existing.
For example--I have never set my eyes on Africa--that doesn't mean Africa does not exist. I have not seen any indication that being the better BW player has translated into being the better SC2 player. That doesn't mean it is not something that could happen provided a large enough sample size was introduced into SC2--it can still happen, there's just no evidence for it as of right now.
Yes, we know and agree. There is no evidence of BW players being at the top because BW players beat other BW players at the top.
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On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is?
The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game
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On February 22 2012 10:17 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 07:52 lorkac wrote:
ForGG losing does not mean the elephant is dead--it simply means there is no evidence that supports the elephant existing.
For example--I have never set my eyes on Africa--that doesn't mean Africa does not exist. I have not seen any indication that being the better BW player has translated into being the better SC2 player. That doesn't mean it is not something that could happen provided a large enough sample size was introduced into SC2--it can still happen, there's just no evidence for it as of right now. Yes, we know and agree. There is no evidence of BW players being at the top because BW players beat other BW players at the top.
Your habit of ignoring arguments as much as you ignore available evidence is very frustrating.
Why even say what you're saying right now when what your quoting has nothing to do with what you're saying?
Are you really so against the philosophy of "not jumping to conclusions" that you're willing to spend time posting snide remarks?
ForGG losing one match doesn't prove anything anymore than Leenock winning one match doesn't prove anything. It's just more data to add into the general body of evidence that is available for analysis. Is it really so bothersome to you for someone to say that?
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On February 22 2012 10:21 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:
[quote]
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is? The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game
The real conclusion is that when Flash wins a match (any match), that it is simply Flash who is winning the match and not the entirety of BW culture winning the match.
For example.
If Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); Effort was not defeated by the entirety of BW, he was simply beaten by Flash.
When Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); the victory is not awarded to the entirety of BW culture, it is awarded to Flash.
So when Flash beats an SC2 player (in an SC2 match); it is Flash (Not the entirety of BW culture) that defeated that random SC2 player.
Much in the same way that if a random SC2 player defeated Flash in SC2; it would be Flash who was defeated and not the entirety of BW culture.
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On February 22 2012 13:05 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:21 SkimGuy wrote:On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:
[quote]
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is? The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game The real conclusion is that when Flash wins a match (any match), that it is simply Flash who is winning the match and not the entirety of BW culture winning the match. For example. If Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); Effort was not defeated by the entirety of BW, he was simply beaten by Flash. When Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); the victory is not awarded to the entirety of BW culture, it is awarded to Flash. So when Flash beats an SC2 player (in an SC2 match); it is Flash (Not the entirety of BW culture) that defeated that random SC2 player. Much in the same way that if a random SC2 player defeated Flash in SC2; it would be Flash who was defeated and not the entirety of BW culture.
Word.
A single player does not define an entire game.
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The question is not how long would Flash need to practice for a big SC2 Championship.
The question is how long Blizzard would need to rebalance the game in her way to balance Terran, which is in my feeling, they have so much better players, we have to weaken that race to give the bad guys a chance.
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I wonder how long this thread will be allowed to live...
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On February 22 2012 17:43 Kreb wrote:
I wonder how long this thread will be allowed to live...
elephants have a pretty long life expectancy!
i think as long bw is going strong (i hope long for the fans and players) and sc2 is not finished (addonwise) with the occasional switch of a (former) bwpro, there will be friction between fans, and this thread does a nice job concentrating them in one place <.< so it is fine i guess, at least much much better as having it spread through live reports and everything else (which thanks to mods, is not really happening that much)
i am always excited if someone "new" enters the proscene, especially since i just read about dove.
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On February 22 2012 13:05 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:21 SkimGuy wrote:On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:
[quote]
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is? The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game The real conclusion is that when Flash wins a match (any match), that it is simply Flash who is winning the match and not the entirety of BW culture winning the match. For example. If Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); Effort was not defeated by the entirety of BW, he was simply beaten by Flash. When Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); the victory is not awarded to the entirety of BW culture, it is awarded to Flash. So when Flash beats an SC2 player (in an SC2 match); it is Flash (Not the entirety of BW culture) that defeated that random SC2 player. Much in the same way that if a random SC2 player defeated Flash in SC2; it would be Flash who was defeated and not the entirety of BW culture.
Which is, of course, what the guy said. That Flash is imba. Not even a hint of BW in there.
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On February 23 2012 05:51 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:05 lorkac wrote:On February 22 2012 10:21 SkimGuy wrote:On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:
[quote]
It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is? The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game The real conclusion is that when Flash wins a match (any match), that it is simply Flash who is winning the match and not the entirety of BW culture winning the match. For example. If Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); Effort was not defeated by the entirety of BW, he was simply beaten by Flash. When Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); the victory is not awarded to the entirety of BW culture, it is awarded to Flash. So when Flash beats an SC2 player (in an SC2 match); it is Flash (Not the entirety of BW culture) that defeated that random SC2 player. Much in the same way that if a random SC2 player defeated Flash in SC2; it would be Flash who was defeated and not the entirety of BW culture. Which is, of course, what the guy said. That Flash is imba. Not even a hint of BW in there.
Oh I wasn't arguing with him. I was just joining in on responding to your comment. Sorry for the miscommunication--I thought the three of us were responding to you. My bad.
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On February 23 2012 06:25 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:51 Squeegy wrote:On February 22 2012 13:05 lorkac wrote:On February 22 2012 10:21 SkimGuy wrote:On February 21 2012 19:36 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:
[quote]
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:
[quote]
first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument.
and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player.
but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players.
SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does).
Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point. And the conclusion is? The conclusion is that Flash is imba, regardless of game The real conclusion is that when Flash wins a match (any match), that it is simply Flash who is winning the match and not the entirety of BW culture winning the match. For example. If Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); Effort was not defeated by the entirety of BW, he was simply beaten by Flash. When Flash beats Effort in a TvZ (in BW); the victory is not awarded to the entirety of BW culture, it is awarded to Flash. So when Flash beats an SC2 player (in an SC2 match); it is Flash (Not the entirety of BW culture) that defeated that random SC2 player. Much in the same way that if a random SC2 player defeated Flash in SC2; it would be Flash who was defeated and not the entirety of BW culture. Which is, of course, what the guy said. That Flash is imba. Not even a hint of BW in there. Oh I wasn't arguing with him. I was just joining in on responding to your comment. Sorry for the miscommunication--I thought the three of us were responding to you. My bad.
Yes, I am sure your use of the term "real conclusion" had nothing to do with the previous comment. 
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How does one argue with someone when he is agreeing with them? I merely made his statement more specific and exact in relation to the conversation already present. How exactly do you yourself argue?
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On February 22 2012 18:17 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 17:43 Kreb wrote:
I wonder how long this thread will be allowed to live... elephants have a pretty long life expectancy! i think as long bw is going strong (i hope long for the fans and players) and sc2 is not finished (addonwise) with the occasional switch of a (former) bwpro, there will be friction between fans, and this thread does a nice job concentrating them in one place <.< so it is fine i guess, at least much much better as having it spread through live reports and everything else (which thanks to mods, is not really happening that much) i am always excited if someone "new" enters the proscene, especially since i just read about dove.
Yeah... more players can't make the SC2 competition worse and it's just amazing to see a new player rise (or not).
And it's actually more interesting than arguing the same things over and over again which might or might not happen.
And when they happen it's great for SC2 and when they don't happen noone will miss them.
Especially when the discussions mostly come down to interpreting how exactly someone meant something at some point in the past.
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Yaiks wrong thread
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people here don't know what farces means. use a dictionary.
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EPT
