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So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what?
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
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On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now.
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players.
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On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players.
It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce.
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On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players.
sc:bw and sc2 both belong to the genre of RTS. sc2 even is the successor of sc:bw
so why should it be senseless to compare those 2 games. there are even magazines that test games to give them ratings and compare them to see which game is the best one
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On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce.
Exactly what i was thinking when i read this article. Things like match-fixing and throwing games are what make a competition a farce. Not the level of skill of the participants.
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On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now.
The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2.
You have to make several assumptions.
1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2.
2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2.
3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness.
All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense.
We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time.
As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself).
And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players?
In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us.
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On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce.
first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument.
and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player.
but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players.
SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does).
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i do think a competition can be a farce if the skill level is pretty low. look at woman's football, dont you guys think thats a farce?
by the way bundesliga is better than premier league!!
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On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does).
Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce...
Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2.
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On February 21 2012 06:49 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. sc:bw and sc2 both belong to the genre of RTS. sc2 even is the successor of sc:bw so why should it be senseless to compare those 2 games. there are even magazines that test games to give them ratings and compare them to see which game is the best one
First of were not comparing games we are comparing players between two games. Which i am saying is pointless because SC2 players are not competing with BW players, and no where does any SC2 league claim that they have the best RTS players in the world. SC2 players are not competing for that title.
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On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us.
first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it.
and you still do not understand the point of this argument.
only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2.
Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know.
for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most
skilled player.
On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2.
ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point.
the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW.
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On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW.
You can't definitively say, beyond that shadow of a doubt, that Flash would be the best player in he switched to SC2. You can't even definitively say he'd be top 5. You can't even definitively say you will still be alive in the next 45 seconds.
Lets stop pretending we know everything.
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ok if flash is the best in bw and sc2 how many matches does flash have to prove him self to be titled the best sc2 player? Also how much training does he need? 2h, 20h, 200h or even 2000h? If he needs training or any matches to prove himself he is not the best player in sc2 even if he switched today.
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On February 21 2012 04:31 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 03:48 hunts wrote:On February 21 2012 03:46 Zavior wrote:On February 21 2012 03:19 Squeegy wrote:
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."
BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?
This post sums things up pretty nicely. People just dont realize how many of the current top players were bw b-teamers or lived in the pro houses! No, no we do. And guess what? Those B teamers are stomping A teamers and an OSL winner. Where's your correlation now? If BW skill carried over, forgg and MVP would be dominating. What does MMA ( a B teamer) and leenock (not even a B teamer if I recall) stomping MVP and forgg tell you? Or do you ignnore that because it doesn't support your warped idea of reality? Have people already started questioning whether MVP is the most accomplished SC2 player to date? Do people so easily forget that many (wrongly, imo) questioned if MVP was the first bonjwa of SC2? I'll pose a question to many "BW-haters": Why should I flat out believe that many of the current top BW pros do have the potential/capabilities to become among the best in SC2? Let's simply disregard the main OP for a second. If it is thought to be only BW fanboyism to assume that PROVEN RTS PLAYERS could succeed in SC2 over the current pros then I must say it is simply SC2 fanboyism to disregard that the most talented, hardest working, more experienced RTS don't actually exist currently playing BW. Many points in the article I disagree with and many others are outdated. I think, however, if we saw a great migration like FXOBoss wants us to believe is happening, it isn't outside the realm of possibility to see a completely new top32 of players in the world.
I think the last couple of months pretty much confirmed what a lot of people were thinking all along. MVP wasn't the best player. He was just the best terran.
You can have lots of reasonable predictions that say BW pros could transition to SC2 and be successful based on their RTS experience, practice ethic and natural talent.
However, a couple of arguments floating around in so many words say that BW is the only place RTS talent can grow. By refusing to acknowledge that an ex-BW player can improve after leaving. By asserting that it would be effortless for a Flash to master the foibles and strategies of this Fisher-Price game in a trivial amount of time.
Which leads me to ask: What happens when the current BW generation retires? Are you leading me to believe that after that there will never be a good SC2 player because they had to have come from BW?
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Sounds like a lot of people don't understand what "farce" means.
The fact that Savior, one of the most celebrated BW players of all time, admitted to participating in match fixing at the highest levels of professional competition is a farce.
SC2 has had nothing like this happen, maybe once when some player gave his friend a win during Code A qualifiers. Sounds like BW competition is the real farce.
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On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW.
This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one.
BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works?
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On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works?
If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point.
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On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2). flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2. You have to make several assumptions. 1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2. 2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2. 3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness. All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense. We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time. As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself). And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players? In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us. first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it. and you still do not understand the point of this argument. only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2. Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know. for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most skilled player. On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what? flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games. you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play. hope you understand this point now. Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players. It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce. first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument. and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player. but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players. SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does). Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce... Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2. ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point. the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW. This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one. BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works? If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point.
Although it is a possible outcome--there is still no evidence that supports this type of linear transition.
If tonne of players from BW switched right now, is there a possibility that at least one of them will be a top player? No one would argue against that--top players can come from anywhere. BW, WC3, Dawn of War, Company of Heroes, etc...
As for the assumption that the current BW pros will do better in SC2 than the current SC2 pros automatically--there has been no definitive evidence to support this.
If a bunch of BW pros switched at once, realistically some will do well, some won't, some will be the best, some won't even be able to qualify. The data supports this possibility--the data does not support the possibility of current BW pros being able to outright replace current SC2 players.
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