EPTOn February 21 2012 08:15 lorkac wrote:
Although it is a possible outcome--there is still no evidence that supports this type of linear transition.
If tonne of players from BW switched right now, is there a possibility that at least one of them will be a top player? No one would argue against that--top players can come from anywhere. BW, WC3, Dawn of War, Company of Heroes, etc...
As for the assumption that the current BW pros will do better in SC2 than the current SC2 pros automatically--there has been no definitive evidence to support this.
If a bunch of BW pros switched at once, realistically some will do well, some won't, some will be the best, some won't even be able to qualify. The data supports this possibility--the data does not support the possibility of current BW pros being able to outright replace current SC2 players.
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 08:08 Squeegy wrote:
If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point.
On February 21 2012 07:59 Remi wrote:
This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one.
BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works?
On February 21 2012 07:12 Paljas wrote:
first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it.
and you still do not understand the point of this argument.
only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2.
Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know.
for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most
skilled player.
ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point.
the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW.
On February 21 2012 06:56 lorkac wrote:
The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2.
You have to make several assumptions.
1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2.
2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2.
3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness.
All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense.
We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time.
As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself).
And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players?
In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us.
On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what?
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
The fallacy of course being that in order for this to be true you have to already accept that Flash's skill in BW would translate into SC2--despite there being no evidence of how good he is at SC2.
You have to make several assumptions.
1.) Flash is the best player in both BW and SC2.
2.) You have to assume that Flash's results in SC2 is reflective of the results of all other BW pros who do/don't play SC2. IE, if he can rule SC2 then all other BW pros can rule SC2.
3.) You then have to make the arbitrary assumption that his theoretical reign of SC2 is due to SC2's weakness while his domination in BW does not reflect BW's weakness.
All of which have to be overlooked otherwise the statement would make no sense.
We don't know if assumption 1 is true because Flash hasn't tried practicing SC2 full time.
As for assumption 2--why would the results of 1 player be reflective of the results of all players? Flash being able to beat MVP does not mean that Effort can beat DRG. And vice versa as well--just because MVP can beat Flash at SC2 does not mean that MMA can roflstomp Fantasy in SC2. In truth, Flash being good/bad at SC2 is only reflective of how good/bad flash is at SC2 and is not representative of the whole (by itself).
And last, but not least, why exactly would Flash's domination of SC2 be understood as SC2 being filled with crappy players--but Flash dominating in BW doesn't show that BW is filled with crappy players?
In reality, Flash is just one data point amongst many who, when put together, hopefully reveals something relevant to us.
first of all, i dont completly agree with the argument, i just explained it.
and you still do not understand the point of this argument.
only assumption #1 has to be true, which it most likely is, if flash would switch over to SC2.
Because this shows, that the best BW player is the best BW player possible right know.
for SC2 however, the most likely hypothetical best player doesnt play, thus sc2 competiton doesnt show you the most
skilled player.
On February 21 2012 07:11 Remi wrote:
Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce...
Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2.
On February 21 2012 06:59 Paljas wrote:
first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument.
and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player.
but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players.
SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does).
On February 21 2012 06:47 RvB wrote:
It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce.
On February 21 2012 06:45 MONXY FIST wrote:
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players.
On February 21 2012 06:30 Paljas wrote:
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what?
flash beating sc2 players makes sc2 competiton a "farce", because it is not the most skilled player who is winning right now in sc2 (because flash doesnt play sc2).
flash beating all bw players doesnt make BW a farce, because the most skilled player also wins the most titles and games.
you can clearly see who is the most skilled player in BW, but you cant say, that any sc2 player is the most skilled player, becaus the top bw player do not play.
hope you understand this point now.
Do people realize that SC2 and BW are different games? Flash is not the most skilled SC2 PLAYER because as you said he doesn't even play the game. SC2 Players are not competing for title of best RTS player, they are competing for best SC2 player. They are separate games, with their own separate scenes and their own separate players.
It's a fucking dumb argument anyway, the German football league isn't a farce because the English one is better. There's just a slight difference in prestige doesn't make it a farce.
first of all, i never said that sc2 competiton is a farce, i just explained an argument.
and ofc sc2 competition is not a farce, because its does what it should do: showing you the best sc2 player.
but the point is, that you know, that there are some BW players who could play sc2 and be the best players.
SC2 competition shows you the best SC2 player, but not the best player possible (like BW does).
Well, one could as well say that Flash is not the best BW player possible, and the weight of evidence would be on his side actually, taking into account South Korea population in comparison to world population, it is highly unlikely, that it's so just happens to be that best possible rts player would be born in SK, therefor Flash probably is not best rts or even BW player and that in turn makes BW competition a farce...
Of course not, its absurd to reason this way, as is absurd to reason the same way about sc2.
ofc flash is not the best player possible, thats not the point.
the difference is, that i can name you someone who would be the best SC2 player right know if he would play the game, while you cant do this for BW.
This argument has nothing to do with my knowledge, it's objective that such a player exist even if I can't name one.
BW competition shows you the best BW player, but not the best player possible. See how it works?
If people from SC2 switched to BW, Flash would be the best player. If people from BW switched to SC2, chances are that Flash would be the best player again. (Or at the very least one of the BW pros.) That is the point.
Although it is a possible outcome--there is still no evidence that supports this type of linear transition.
If tonne of players from BW switched right now, is there a possibility that at least one of them will be a top player? No one would argue against that--top players can come from anywhere. BW, WC3, Dawn of War, Company of Heroes, etc...
As for the assumption that the current BW pros will do better in SC2 than the current SC2 pros automatically--there has been no definitive evidence to support this.
If a bunch of BW pros switched at once, realistically some will do well, some won't, some will be the best, some won't even be able to qualify. The data supports this possibility--the data does not support the possibility of current BW pros being able to outright replace current SC2 players.
I know, you pointed it out to me. BW players are not at top because BW players beat BW players.
