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The Elephant in the Room - Page 281

Forum Index > Final Edits
6514 CommentsPost a Reply
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Zavior
Profile Joined August 2009
Finland753 Posts
February 20 2012 18:46 GMT
#5601
On February 21 2012 03:19 Squeegy wrote:
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."

BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?


This post sums things up pretty nicely. People just dont realize how many of the current top players were bw b-teamers or lived in the pro houses!
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
February 20 2012 18:48 GMT
#5602
On February 21 2012 03:46 Zavior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:19 Squeegy wrote:
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."

BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?


This post sums things up pretty nicely. People just dont realize how many of the current top players were bw b-teamers or lived in the pro houses!


No, no we do. And guess what? Those B teamers are stomping A teamers and an OSL winner. Where's your correlation now? If BW skill carried over, forgg and MVP would be dominating. What does MMA ( a B teamer) and leenock (not even a B teamer if I recall) stomping MVP and forgg tell you? Or do you ignnore that because it doesn't support your warped idea of reality?
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
February 20 2012 18:50 GMT
#5603
On February 21 2012 03:41 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:33 Grumbels wrote:
lorkac, you'll see the truth when the best brood war players switch over and crush our current best players, give or take three to six months. My guess would be that out of the current 30 best BW players, about 10-12 could be part of the best 15 SC2 players. Somewhat random numbers, but just to put it into perspective.

Brood War is essentially a generic RTS that rewards mental quickness, fast hands, strategic preparation, a good practice environment and a good work ethic. It's also by far the most competitive RTS ever, so it's logical to assume the players on top are really talented. They demonstrated they were more talented than our current generation of SC2 players, at least, when both of them competed in Brood War, so there is hardly any reason to doubt they could do the same again were they to switch over.

Isolated events like Hyun and ForGG disappointing after a few months of playing competitively mean nothing, check their results in another three months and even if their play is lackluster still, it might just be that they were washed up or burned out at the end of their brood war careers. (maybe that's why they switched to sc2 to begin with!)


Sorry but those are not isolated results as you want to believe. They so far ARE the only proof. But it's ok, keep theory crafting since it's all you BW kiddies can do when the evidence is against you. Honestly this is almost like a religion debate. BW people go "nah uh, the evidence doesn't mean anything to us we believe what we want to!" And yes we'll see the truth when the best BW players switch over, but the truth will be that their BW experience won't mean anything. Some of them will do well, and a lot most likely won't. But of course you BW kiddies will just go "nah the ones who failed at SC2 were awful at BW, we disown them as BW fans because they disprove our ideas." Honestly this feels like a religious debate, you just won't listen to reason and insert your own ideas in the face of contradictory evidence.

I'm sorry that you seem to not have the attention span to read lorkac's posts, it actually would explain why you keep arguing with him despite him proving you completely wrong in every one of his posts. But please, try and actually be intelligent on TL, after all isn't that the idea of the site? Try and actually read what he's saying, you might come out of it smarter, and less of a troll.

lol? this is my first post on the topic, and I didnt even play or follow BW
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
oxxo
Profile Joined February 2010
988 Posts
February 20 2012 18:51 GMT
#5604
On February 21 2012 03:48 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:46 Zavior wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:19 Squeegy wrote:
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."

BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?


This post sums things up pretty nicely. People just dont realize how many of the current top players were bw b-teamers or lived in the pro houses!


No, no we do. And guess what? Those B teamers are stomping A teamers and an OSL winner. Where's your correlation now? If BW skill carried over, forgg and MVP would be dominating. What does MMA ( a B teamer) and leenock (not even a B teamer if I recall) stomping MVP and forgg tell you? Or do you ignnore that because it doesn't support your warped idea of reality?


Mvp hasn't dominated SC2 for the past year+? That's news to everyone but you I guess.
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
February 20 2012 18:52 GMT
#5605
People just can't stop

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User was temp banned for this post.
Cackle™
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
February 20 2012 18:59 GMT
#5606
+ Show Spoiler +
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."

BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?


Are you saying that there is no difference between an A-Team player, a B-Team player and a random iCCup player? If being better at BW has no relevance then you’re already agreeing with me.

Yes, Flash can beat anyone in SC2 was part of the discussion. But no, I do not agree with the second statement. They do not mean the same thing. Why is it that so hard to understand?


So Flash possibly beating SC2 players—despite there being no evidence of it—makes SC2 a farce but Flash beating BW players—which we have evidence of—is not the same thing? Um… and your proof for this other than you disagreeing is what?

"If you open the line of thought with "gunshot wounds leads to death" and then realize "Oh, not all the time" then the conclusion is not "gunshot wounds kind of correlates to death" but instead it should be "gunshot wounds *can* lead to something that causes death--I wonder what that "thing" is that can correlate with death""

Here, people, I show you a quote that proves my point. He does not understand what correlation means. Ignore for a moment that you may disagree with me overall but please, will someone tell this man that he does not know what the word 'correlation' means? He won't believe me when I say it, so maybe someone else can beat sense to him.


????

Do you have another definition of correlation where saying something is true despite what the data reveals makes it true? Because I prefer sticking to the facts.

Here’s how it works.

You take data.

You find trends in the data.

You see any correlations occurring in the trends.

If there is no consistent correlation, then you stick to analyzing the overall generic trends. If, however, you wish for there to be a degree of variance so that you don’t just throw the data away, you give yourself an arbitrary margin of error. Applying this margin of error doesn’t *make* correlations appear—it simply means you purposefully ignore sections of the data in order to make your argument more sound.

Here it is in action.

The Data: SC2 pros

The trend: Almost all SC2 players have played an RTS of some kind in the past.

The correlation: None. It doesn’t seem to matter how good the players were, how long they played the previous game, or even what that game was. They all played some kind of video game though.

Conclusion: Either accept that most SC2 pros have played videogames before—or ignore sections of the data that doesn’t agree with your argument.

You have chosen to accept that if a player played BW at all in the past—that that is the reason why that player is winning. Now, this is despite WC3 players also winning tournaments, despite that not all the players who played BW were pro gamers when they switched, and it also ignores the fact that not all the BW players who switched were even pros to begin with. You prefer to ignore the data where being good at BW does not translate to being good in SC2. You ignore the data where in cultures where BW and WC3 was more evenly split—that both groups are represented in the SC2 demographic. You ignore a lot of data in your quest to say that being good in BW makes you good in SC2 when the data simply shows that having played an RTS is the only consistent thing present.

So please, actually place down an argument-one that has facts and evidence to support it.

And now you curiously change from your previous claim of how well you did in your previous game "does not matter" to "does not matter all that much". So you in fact admit now that how well you did in the previous game matters?


I’ve never changed my claim. How well you’ve played in BW has not mattered—per the evidence available. When exactly have I said otherwise?

"This is actually hilarious to read. The supporters of SC2 have always held their ground that just because you're good at one game, it doesn't mean you'll be good at another. The reason SC2 players believe this, is because we believe that everyone has a chance to become the best no matter their background. That is why a former iCCup player is able to take games off of former A-Teamers and B-Teamers. That is why Hyun can't make it to code A. That is why SC2 supporters are arguing against the article. Because we believe that simply because someone is ranked 1 somewhere, that that person doesn't automatically win all his games. You know, much like Flash losing games in BW. Just because he's a high ranked BW player doesn't automatically mean he'll win a game because his ranking is not *why* he wins games and is actually irrelevant to his actual gameplay. He wins games because of many other factors none of which is related to his ranking. It's actually really funny that you're actually beginning to have to make the same arguments as SC2 supporters because (gasp) those arguments are the ones supported by data."

Do you think BW players thought Flash was born playing BW? Nope. They too think that anyone can be the best. Nor do they think that Flash is so good because he is ranked somewhere. They think Flash is ranked somewhere because he is so good. Nor do they think he automatically wins his games. Do you know why that is? Because we have him lose. We know that his win% is around 70. He loses sometimes and we all knew that. But you seem to think that we didn't. Which scenario do you think is more likely (and I really hope you'll answer this) that you have misunderstood what people have been saying or that we really thought that Flash automatically wins? Hyun, by the way, made it to Code A. Why do you claim that he didn't?


I’m glad you agree that you don’t have to be an experienced player (like Flash) to show up and do well in a pro game environment. So maybe you can stop saying that BW pros transferring will beat SC2 players simply because BW pros played a lot of BW when BW is currently ruled by someone who started playing BW without any prior RTS experience.


This is the last bit of response I will offer the troll. I'm sorry to have bothered people with my posts--I hadn't realized that they were that lengthy.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
February 20 2012 19:05 GMT
#5607
Who the hell keeps on beating the dead horse?
I thought after Forgg got stomped in Code S that asshole would stop bumping this.
Unless you're Flash/Jaedong/some other godlike player, which means you have absurd natural talent and would've won at SC2 anyways, playing BW just means your fingers are already pretty nimble.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
February 20 2012 19:31 GMT
#5608
On February 21 2012 03:48 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:46 Zavior wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:19 Squeegy wrote:
""If BW experience is not important why is it that BW players are at the top?" because, well, they aren't. Nestea is doing better than Ganzi, Leenock is doing better than ForGG, MMA is beating MVP, etc... The results so far reveal that you're wrong. You saying that you're not does not change the results."

BW players aren't at the top because BW players lost to other BW players at the top? Wat?


This post sums things up pretty nicely. People just dont realize how many of the current top players were bw b-teamers or lived in the pro houses!


No, no we do. And guess what? Those B teamers are stomping A teamers and an OSL winner. Where's your correlation now? If BW skill carried over, forgg and MVP would be dominating. What does MMA ( a B teamer) and leenock (not even a B teamer if I recall) stomping MVP and forgg tell you? Or do you ignnore that because it doesn't support your warped idea of reality?


Have people already started questioning whether MVP is the most accomplished SC2 player to date? Do people so easily forget that many (wrongly, imo) questioned if MVP was the first bonjwa of SC2?

I'll pose a question to many "BW-haters": Why should I flat out believe that many of the current top BW pros do have the potential/capabilities to become among the best in SC2?

Let's simply disregard the main OP for a second. If it is thought to be only BW fanboyism to assume that PROVEN RTS PLAYERS could succeed in SC2 over the current pros then I must say it is simply SC2 fanboyism to disregard that the most talented, hardest working, more experienced RTS don't actually exist currently playing BW.

Many points in the article I disagree with and many others are outdated. I think, however, if we saw a great migration like FXOBoss wants us to believe is happening, it isn't outside the realm of possibility to see a completely new top32 of players in the world.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
February 20 2012 19:55 GMT
#5609
This thread shall be dubbed as "BattleGround". This is the field where the Old Guards fend off relentless onslaught of the New Legion.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 19:56:20
February 20 2012 19:55 GMT
#5610
If the horse is dead, then the elephant is too! That post was all-time funny, IMHO.

We should get an update from the OP. Does he still stand by his words? Or have things changed enough in SC2 to make him change his mind?
Zavior
Profile Joined August 2009
Finland753 Posts
February 20 2012 20:46 GMT
#5611
On February 21 2012 04:55 dsousa wrote:
If the horse is dead, then the elephant is too! That post was all-time funny, IMHO.

We should get an update from the OP. Does he still stand by his words? Or have things changed enough in SC2 to make him change his mind?


Seeing that things pretty much went the way the OP described, I dont think he should change his mind. We see bw background dominating.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6322 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 20:59:03
February 20 2012 20:57 GMT
#5612
On February 21 2012 05:46 Zavior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 04:55 dsousa wrote:
If the horse is dead, then the elephant is too! That post was all-time funny, IMHO.

We should get an update from the OP. Does he still stand by his words? Or have things changed enough in SC2 to make him change his mind?


Seeing that things pretty much went the way the OP described, I dont think he should change his mind. We see bw background dominating.


At the point of writing this piece point the players that switched from BW were already there. And he called them a farce ( mvp, MC etc.). So no we didn't see things go exactly the way the OP described.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
February 20 2012 21:03 GMT
#5613
On February 21 2012 05:57 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 05:46 Zavior wrote:
On February 21 2012 04:55 dsousa wrote:
If the horse is dead, then the elephant is too! That post was all-time funny, IMHO.

We should get an update from the OP. Does he still stand by his words? Or have things changed enough in SC2 to make him change his mind?


Seeing that things pretty much went the way the OP described, I dont think he should change his mind. We see bw background dominating.


At the point of writing this piece point the players that switched from BW were already there. And he called them a farce ( mvp, MC etc.). So no we didn't see things go exactly the way the OP described.


The elephant haven't even more on step...
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
February 20 2012 21:04 GMT
#5614
On February 21 2012 03:33 Grumbels wrote:
lorkac, you'll see the truth when the best brood war players switch over and crush our current best players, give or take three to six months. My guess would be that out of the current 30 best BW players, about 10-12 could be part of the best 15 SC2 players. Somewhat random numbers, but just to put it into perspective.

Brood War is essentially a generic RTS that rewards mental quickness, fast hands, strategic preparation, a good practice environment and a good work ethic. It's also by far the most competitive RTS ever, so it's logical to assume the players on top are really talented. They demonstrated they were more talented than our current generation of SC2 players, at least, when both of them competed in Brood War, so there is hardly any reason to doubt they could do the same again were they to switch over.

Isolated events like Hyun and ForGG disappointing after a few months of playing competitively mean nothing, check their results in another three months and even if their play is lackluster still, it might just be that they were washed up or burned out at the end of their brood war careers. (maybe that's why they switched to sc2 to begin with!)


That's kinda the point though, isn't it? You can just claim a player is washed up if they perform badly, regardless of if they are or not.
Hey! How you doin'?
ondik
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Czech Republic2908 Posts
February 20 2012 21:09 GMT
#5615
why the fuck is this still open, seriously? any other thread with 1/10 amount of senseless flaming/trolling you see here would be closed long time ago.
Bisu. The one and only. // Save the cheerreaver, save the world (of SC2)
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 21:19:41
February 20 2012 21:10 GMT
#5616
On February 21 2012 05:46 Zavior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 04:55 dsousa wrote:
If the horse is dead, then the elephant is too! That post was all-time funny, IMHO.

We should get an update from the OP. Does he still stand by his words? Or have things changed enough in SC2 to make him change his mind?


Seeing that things pretty much went the way the OP described, I dont think he should change his mind. We see bw background dominating.


Really, who's the best BW player to come over since the OP?

Nestea, MVP and MC are still the top money winners in SC2, you would think one of those 300 BW pro's who have more "talent" would have decided to come on over to SC2 and make over $200k by trouncing those former BW noobs. Even if you say the number is 100, do all 100 of those BW pro's love being BW pro's more than making $200k?

I love ForGG, but he's hardly established the proof of the elephant.

The only BW pro's to move over since the post that I know of are ForGG, Byun and Yellow. I don't see them dominating the scene.

There are probably countless others that have tried in private that we'll never hear about because they didn't experience any success.

Honestly, this thread hurts BW players far more than SC2 players... because it shows that their expectation in SC2 are absurdly high. If a BW player comes to SC2 and is just a good solid pro, then to the BW crowd, he's to the BW community he's a complete loser because he should be dominating.



Jisall
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2054 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 21:17:05
February 20 2012 21:16 GMT
#5617
+ Show Spoiler +

On February 21 2012 03:52 TheKefka wrote:
People just can't stop

[image loading]

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User was temp banned for this post.


Edit: put spoiler in to not rape page space. Open at own risk. It just the images posted beforehand

Lol. My thoughts exactly.

Funny thing is I was looking for the post you got banned on to see what a image macro was gave up, and then stumbled upon this, now i know lmfao.
Monk: Because being a badass is more fun then playing a dude wearing a scarf.. ... Ite fuck it, Witch Doctor cuz I like killing stuff in a timely mannor.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
February 20 2012 21:18 GMT
#5618
On February 21 2012 06:10 dsousa wrote:
The only BW pro's to move over since the post that I know of are ForGG, Byun and Yellow. I don't see them dominating the scene.



If those are the only BW pros you know who switched over you might want to do some research before posting here. One of those you mentioned (Yellow) isn't even on the scene.
Hey! How you doin'?
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
February 20 2012 21:21 GMT
#5619
On February 21 2012 06:18 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 06:10 dsousa wrote:
The only BW pro's to move over since the post that I know of are ForGG, Byun and Yellow. I don't see them dominating the scene.



If those are the only BW pros you know who switched over you might want to do some research before posting here. One of those you mentioned (Yellow) isn't even on the scene.


Not anymore he's not.... I wonder why? Maybe it wasn't as easy as he, or GomTV, thought it would be.
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
February 20 2012 21:28 GMT
#5620
Maybe he simply didn't like the game or that everyday he played SC2 he was harassed to no end over Battle.net 0.2. The show was for promotion. I would have to assume if he truly wanted to be a SC2 pro he would have stuck with it longer than the few weeks (and with that he still won a bo3 in qualifiers).
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