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The Elephant in the Room - Page 252

Forum Index > Final Edits
6513 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 250 251 252 253 254 326 Next
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
January 29 2012 16:04 GMT
#5021
On January 30 2012 00:27 Neelia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 00:18 setzer wrote:
On January 30 2012 00:02 Eee wrote:
On January 29 2012 23:58 Neelia wrote:
On January 29 2012 23:29 raga4ka wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:58 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:55 Sanjuro wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:46 raga4ka wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:34 Sanjuro wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:22 raga4ka wrote:
[quote]

What about Hyun ? He practised SC2 for 3 months and dominated Jinro who practises SC2 in the oGs house since SC2's release ? You can't deny the BW pro's results .


Seriously where do you guys get the facts for "he has been practicing for amount of time and he dominates bla bla bla" Please don't use that as an argument.


He joined TSL in november and thats when he started playing competitively . Yeah he probably played games before on ladder , but has only competed professionaly for 3 months and as you can see he made Code A and beat Jinro in the FXOpen . You can't deny this results . Not to mention that he couldn't have possibly been playing more then 6 months since he was playing BW for MBCgame before they disbannded and only switched recently because no team picked him up . So i am pretty sure he hasn't played more then four months of SC2 maximum .


So its 6 months now? come on guys... ill see an elephant when one of them wins a GSL, not when they win a match


All GSL winners except Polt?

Capu: Motivation is a good point. Some people will not make it because they lost the spark and simply are not trying that hard.


Exactly everyone who has won a GSL except Polt are former BW pros .


Jjakji is a former BW pro?

He's only 17, so I dont think so.


He was a practice partner but I don't think he was actually on any professional team (he isn't in TLPD).


Any source on that? Thanks.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241675

Second to last question.
cyclone25
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Romania3344 Posts
January 29 2012 16:05 GMT
#5022
On January 30 2012 00:31 paradoxOO9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 22:34 Sanjuro wrote:
Seriously where do you guys get the facts for "he has been practicing for amount of time and he dominates bla bla bla" Please don't use that as an argument.


Quoted from Hyun's liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HyuN
Show nested quote +
HyuN began playing StarCraft II in November 2011, and was able to move up to Master League within the month [1]. On November 28th, he eventually stepped-up and joined Team SCV Life [2]. He stated that he planned to qualify for the first GSL Code A Championship of 2012, and to compete in foreign events as well [1]. He eventually managed to earn a spot in Code A at his first attempt, in the 2012 Global StarCraft II League Season 1 preliminaries, with a win over Weekend.

People may be exaggerating the amount of time fOrGG played, but Hyun is going to be very good after looking at his recent games.


Hyun lost 0-3 to Golden in the NA Zotac final yesterday.
Seraphone
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom1219 Posts
January 29 2012 16:07 GMT
#5023
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.
Mvp, Nestea, Leenock, MC, Oz, Jjakji!
Eee
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden2712 Posts
January 29 2012 16:14 GMT
#5024
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

Xigua!
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
January 29 2012 17:21 GMT
#5025
On January 30 2012 00:06 frucisky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 23:58 Neelia wrote:
On January 29 2012 23:29 raga4ka wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:58 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:55 Sanjuro wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:46 raga4ka wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:34 Sanjuro wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:22 raga4ka wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0


What about Hyun ? He practised SC2 for 3 months and dominated Jinro who practises SC2 in the oGs house since SC2's release ? You can't deny the BW pro's results .


Seriously where do you guys get the facts for "he has been practicing for amount of time and he dominates bla bla bla" Please don't use that as an argument.


He joined TSL in november and thats when he started playing competitively . Yeah he probably played games before on ladder , but has only competed professionaly for 3 months and as you can see he made Code A and beat Jinro in the FXOpen . You can't deny this results . Not to mention that he couldn't have possibly been playing more then 6 months since he was playing BW for MBCgame before they disbannded and only switched recently because no team picked him up . So i am pretty sure he hasn't played more then four months of SC2 maximum .


So its 6 months now? come on guys... ill see an elephant when one of them wins a GSL, not when they win a match


All GSL winners except Polt?

Capu: Motivation is a good point. Some people will not make it because they lost the spark and simply are not trying that hard.


Exactly everyone who has won a GSL except Polt are former BW pros .


Jjakji is a former BW pro?


And I heard Nestea and MC are B-teamers. I really think BW players bring over a good work ethic and good mechanics so they learn the game faster and get to the current state of play faster. Doesn't mean they are naturally better and win GSLs left and right.

Both were a-teamers at various points. They both got to play televised matches. Saying they were b-teamers is accurate in terms of their skill level when they started sc2, but it's not like Boxer and July were playing every week. In fact wasn't July briefly demoted to the b-team? I remember one of them was. I guess I just want to point out that in their day they were at least a-teamers .
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 18:04:10
January 29 2012 17:55 GMT
#5026
On January 30 2012 01:14 Eee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

Xigua!


Aren't chinese players a scene of their own though ? I remember in BW there was like the korean, the chinese and the foreigner's scene . Also Nerchio was a former BW player from what i read from Liquipedia so i would say that the foreigner BW scene is doing slightly better .
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 18:24:53
January 29 2012 18:21 GMT
#5027
To just call Nestea/MC bad bw pros is sooo wrong.
Yes MC has a loosing record in pro leage, but a pro team doesn't keep sending you out in televised games when you are bad, until open season 3 he was known to have huge nerve issues and he was probably doing really well in practice in bw.
Nestea was an A teamer before he did his military service, a very promising up and coming pro gamer in fact, but then he got pushed into 2 v 2s and all that stuff and was way too far behind everyone else after his military service (you know similiar to how boxer didn't win anything after he did his military service).
MVP was a A teamer and had a top4 or maybe top8 OSL finish before he switched.
Also right now none of the progamers that one an OSL/MSL that switched have won anything major in sc2..
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
January 29 2012 18:30 GMT
#5028
MVP made it to the RO8 in the Hana Daetoo MSL.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
JeffGoldblum
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Cook Islands191 Posts
January 29 2012 18:43 GMT
#5029
On January 30 2012 03:21 Lorch wrote:
To just call Nestea/MC bad bw pros is sooo wrong.
Yes MC has a loosing record in pro leage, but a pro team doesn't keep sending you out in televised games when you are bad, until open season 3 he was known to have huge nerve issues and he was probably doing really well in practice in bw.
Nestea was an A teamer before he did his military service, a very promising up and coming pro gamer in fact, but then he got pushed into 2 v 2s and all that stuff and was way too far behind everyone else after his military service (you know similiar to how boxer didn't win anything after he did his military service).
MVP was a A teamer and had a top4 or maybe top8 OSL finish before he switched.
Also right now none of the progamers that one an OSL/MSL that switched have won anything major in sc2..


They we're mediocre. A big reason MC got sent out in Proleague is because the other protosses on MBC when MC played for them were Jaehoon and Tyson sooo yeaaah that is a bad example. The last time a current SC2 pro won an OSL/MSL was 2008(ForGG's MSL) that's almost 4 years ago then you can ask why hasn't Fruitdealer won a GSL since 2010? It only been little over a year. Players just become bad at one point or another. There are a shit ton of factors that go into that, that we'll probably never know (cuz we can't read minds unfourtunately)
I'm Jeff Goldblum
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
January 29 2012 18:54 GMT
#5030
The SC2 scene is in its infancy. Any comparison to Brood War is just stupid to be honest. Brood War has the advantage of YEARS in terms of development, both in terms of game strategy and practice strategy. Saying something like "Flash would destroy everyone if he switched!1!!11" isn't a very profound discovery. Flash probably would dominate people in SC2 because he's INSANELY good at RTS and has years of experience. It has nothing to do with what game he is playing. Give the SC2 scene time and it will reach the level of BW.
Push 2 Harder
gn0m
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden302 Posts
January 29 2012 19:26 GMT
#5031
On January 30 2012 03:21 Lorch wrote:
To just call Nestea/MC bad bw pros is sooo wrong.
Yes MC has a loosing record in pro leage, but a pro team doesn't keep sending you out in televised games when you are bad, until open season 3 he was known to have huge nerve issues and he was probably doing really well in practice in bw.
Nestea was an A teamer before he did his military service, a very promising up and coming pro gamer in fact, but then he got pushed into 2 v 2s and all that stuff and was way too far behind everyone else after his military service (you know similiar to how boxer didn't win anything after he did his military service).
MVP was a A teamer and had a top4 or maybe top8 OSL finish before he switched.
Also right now none of the progamers that one an OSL/MSL that switched have won anything major in sc2..

MC has a 10 % win ratio, calling him bad is an understatement. And it’s not like he got sent out in Proleague all the time – he played six games.

Zergbong a promising up and coming player? Who the hell told you that, he has sucked since 2002. The reason that he got pushed into 2v2 is exactly because of that. No good player has ever been forced to play 2v2 in their prime.
-_-
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
January 29 2012 20:10 GMT
#5032
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

THe funny thing is top 5 foreign TLPD are all former WC3 players.
Eee
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden2712 Posts
January 29 2012 20:12 GMT
#5033
On January 30 2012 05:10 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

THe funny thing is top 5 foreign TLPD are all former WC3 players.

Mana is former bw, but yes TLPD begs to differ.
Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
January 29 2012 21:09 GMT
#5034
On January 30 2012 03:54 Bigtony wrote:
The SC2 scene is in its infancy. Any comparison to Brood War is just stupid to be honest. Brood War has the advantage of YEARS in terms of development, both in terms of game strategy and practice strategy. Saying something like "Flash would destroy everyone if he switched!1!!11" isn't a very profound discovery. Flash probably would dominate people in SC2 because he's INSANELY good at RTS and has years of experience. It has nothing to do with what game he is playing. Give the SC2 scene time and it will reach the level of BW.


But most top players have years of experience as well from another game. I don't think it is at all clear that SC2 will reach the level of BW. No other RTS so far has been even close. I would say SC2 certainly has the most potential but it is not at all obvious.

To the people who were mistakenly understood that we are arguing that former GSL champions were elephants: That wasn't the point. Point was that every GSL winner (except Polt) has been from BW. I would dare assert that something like at least 90% of the top players are from BW. And there is some correlation between their level in BW and their level in SC2. That is why MVP has been considered for a good part of the game the best. There is then a good reason to think that the BW guys who have the thirst and the talent to succeed, will bring the skill level of this game up by amounts that no other player has done. It will not be by that much however unless the whole BW pro-scene switches. Players are, in a way, bound by their scene. The better you are the slower you will learn (compared to the scene). The worse you are the faster you will learn (compared to the scene). What I wrote here is rather ambiguous and not as general as I make it sound. Ask for clarification if you wish.

Also, according to TLPD Happy is the second best foreigner. Moonglade the sixth. Beastygt better than Naniwa. Perhaps that is enough to show you that TLPD for foreigners isn't indicator of much anything. It works in Korean BW where the leagues are standardized and in which everyone tries to play. Perhaps for Korean SC2 too if you only count GSL.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
January 29 2012 21:10 GMT
#5035
On January 30 2012 05:10 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

THe funny thing is top 5 foreign TLPD are all former WC3 players.


He was talking about results, and there has been nothing conclusive over which foreign scene has done better. Some tournaments WC3 players do really well and in others they fall flat on their face.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
January 29 2012 21:18 GMT
#5036
On January 30 2012 05:10 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

THe funny thing is top 5 foreign TLPD are all former WC3 players.



Ahh, so by your accounts Happy is the 2nd best foreigner and the best terran foreigner?

And hmm, according to the Korean one Curious is now the 4th best player in the world, and the 2nd best zerg/
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
January 29 2012 21:34 GMT
#5037
Ok, I have an idea.

Flash vs Stephano in SC2. Someone make a showmatch, with 50k to the winner, 20k to the loser.... open ended invitation anytime Flash wants to accept.

Certainly BW elitists should view the French WC3 player Stephano as no threat, so if Flash can't beat Stephano.... then the elephant is dead :D

Best of 31 supermatch!

The world needs this!
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
January 29 2012 21:46 GMT
#5038
On January 30 2012 02:55 raga4ka wrote:

Aren't chinese players a scene of their own though ? I remember in BW there was like the korean, the chinese and the foreigner's scene . Also Nerchio was a former BW player from what i read from Liquipedia so i would say that the foreigner BW scene is doing slightly better .


Poland had their own servers/ladder and Russia did as well. It goes way beyond that. Doesn't mean we didn't get to play them because we sure as hell did.


Squeegy
Profile Joined October 2009
Finland1166 Posts
January 29 2012 22:20 GMT
#5039
On January 30 2012 06:34 dsousa wrote:
Ok, I have an idea.

Flash vs Stephano in SC2. Someone make a showmatch, with 50k to the winner, 20k to the loser.... open ended invitation anytime Flash wants to accept.

Certainly BW elitists should view the French WC3 player Stephano as no threat, so if Flash can't beat Stephano.... then the elephant is dead :D

Best of 31 supermatch!

The world needs this!


And how realistic do you think this proposition is? I really have no idea what your point is.
Stan: Dude, dolphins are intelligent and friendly. Cartman: Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with some mayonnaise.
Eee
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden2712 Posts
January 29 2012 22:30 GMT
#5040
On January 30 2012 02:55 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2012 01:14 Eee wrote:
On January 30 2012 01:07 Seraphone wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:06 Bd.Snake wrote:
On January 29 2012 22:01 Squeegy wrote:
On January 29 2012 21:27 Choboo wrote:
On January 29 2012 17:43 dsousa wrote:
Sase over ForGG 2-0 in the FXOpen... or

White Dude dominates former BW Proleague Champion and defeater of Flash.

0.0

To be fair SaSe represents the other elephant (the WC3 one)


I don't think it's an elephant because people don't know what you mean. What do you mean?

In the foriegner scene the war 3 switches have done better then the foreign bw switches in Star 2


Very dubious.

Huk, Idra, Jinro, Dimaga, Mana, Sen, Ret, White Ra, Morrow stacks up just fine against Naniwa, Thorzain, Stephano, HasuObs, Kas.

I'd say overall BW foreigners have done slightly better.

Xigua!


Aren't chinese players a scene of their own though ? I remember in BW there was like the korean, the chinese and the foreigner's scene . Also Nerchio was a former BW player from what i read from Liquipedia so i would say that the foreigner BW scene is doing slightly better .

they were in BW, but this is sc2. If we consider Sen to be a foreigner, who is from Taiwan which means he even shares the same server as the koreans. Then according to that logic China should be considerd foreigner and not a seperate one.
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