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"The best players are way better than what you would find on the ladder"]
That's bullcrap. When you play a Zerg on ladder with a MMR of 6800 you are playing one of the best Zergs on earth. Soo, Solar, Byul, Dark, Losira, Leenock etc.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster/legacy-of-the-void
This is 2017, there are no team houses hardly any longer except Jin air. People practice online and the top players in Korean ladder are the top players. The top player in Korean ladder is a Zerg. It is not Dark he is ranked 3rd and it's not Soo he is ranked 7th. So are you telling me that a Zerg ranked higher than those 2 guys is not bad ass? We can guess who it might be the name is in Korean. I think it is Byul. Could be Solar.
Zest has been ranked 10-25 his MMR is 6600-6700. He's not playing pimple faced 16 year old who only practice after school .
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On July 02 2017 21:35 Rolltide wrote:
The top player in Korean ladder is a Zerg. It is not Dark he is ranked 3rd and it's not Soo he is ranked 7th. So are you telling me that a Zerg ranked higher than those 2 guys is not bad ass? We can guess who it might be the name is in Korean. I think it is Byul. Could be Solar.
It's Rogue. Also you just assume it can't be Dark/soO because they're already in the top 10, but there was a point this season where soO had 6 accounts in the top 16 of Korean GM.
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On July 01 2017 23:19 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2017 23:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I mean there is nothing you can say anymore tbh You can say plenty, Protoss is in the worst shape balance wise in years, (43% PvT, 42% PvZ in the month of June, sample size 1000 pro games) He lost to impact yes but what protoss has beaten impact recently? U guys need to stop this circlejerk that zest is shit, he still has the best PvP in the world ( find 1 person with a positive winratio vs Zest in PvP i dare you.) The other matchups are basically impossible, even more so for Zest than other players because his playstyle is numbers oriented not gimmicks oriented, thats why he has terrible form vs Zerg and Terran, but so does every toss, he just does a bit more
Stats, Patience, herO and Neeb have positive winrates against Zest
I found 4 lol
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That only makes my point for me. If you play a Zerg with a rank of 6700 or higher there is a significant chance it is SoO.
FYI Zest just played in a tournament called Master's coliseum. He was in a tough group. He was eliminated in group with a 1-2 record.
Protoss being under powered is no excuse here all his matches were against Protoss. He lost 0-2 vs Hero, won 2-1 vs Myunsik and then lost the decider match 2-1 to Hero.
SoO and Hero move on in group.
A small tournament with $4000 1st place money but many of the major Korean players are participating so it is worth watching.
This is online not lands but that does not seem to matter.
In game 1 in the decider match Hero hit Zest with DTs about the same time Zest was attacking with 2 Oracles. Zest had detection soon enough but Hero's stalker drop left Zest over matched and he lost a bunch of probes. When Zest tapped out he had just 2 probes.
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On July 02 2017 21:35 Rolltide wrote:"The best players are way better than what you would find on the ladder"] That's bullcrap. When you play a Zerg on ladder with a MMR of 6800 you are playing one of the best Zergs on earth. Soo, Solar, Byul, Dark, Losira, Leenock etc. http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster/legacy-of-the-voidThis is 2017, there are no team houses hardly any longer except Jin air. People practice online and the top players in Korean ladder are the top players. The top player in Korean ladder is a Zerg. It is not Dark he is ranked 3rd and it's not Soo he is ranked 7th. So are you telling me that a Zerg ranked higher than those 2 guys is not bad ass? We can guess who it might be the name is in Korean. I think it is Byul. Could be Solar. Zest has been ranked 10-25 his MMR is 6600-6700. He's not playing pimple faced 16 year old who only practice after school .
When you play a 6800 MMR zerg you're playing a high ranked zerg. Could be a god like soO or Dark or Rogue, or maybe Scarlett, Losira, Leenock etc. This is all true, but there's no way to justify the actual level of skill of the average ladder game being the same as in a tournament, or with intense practice partners.
Many top players practice with eachother in preperation for tournament matches (almost all of them say this actually). TY is a good example, he's never high ranked on ladder and when he streams its a lot of meme games. He clearly trains in private. When asked in interviewed he often says that he's practiced with Maru, Stats, Rogue etc.
ByuN has done countless streams of him getting no.1 on the ladder and barely losing any games doing it. Is he the best player in the world then? Because in real tournaments right now he's not even top 5 terran. Creator, Keen, Impact etc are other guys that hover 6700MMR (ish) I believe, I guess they're GSL champion contenders right?
The top ranked player is Rogue btw
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On July 02 2017 16:49 Plopus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2017 01:07 Fango wrote:
While players like soO benefit from being teamless. Zest needs someone to tell him what to do I'm not really sure that the lack of team is the major factor. Zest's level was already decreasing at the end of the proleague and the lasts season of GSL last year. I think it's more about the meta. I think he is not really adapting and if you add this lack of adaptation to the fact that the balance doesn't seem to be really okay at the moment for protoss...
Nahh it's the team factor I think. Zest's mechanical skill is still very good, he's just clueless about the meta and strategy part. I'm gonna assume that on KT he had a coach and practice partners that he used to learn what builds etc to do.
Why does everyone think he was playing badly before KT disbanded? Every player that isn't on JinAir sucked by the end of proleague lets be real here. The GSL loss to Taeja hurt him but he bounced back.
Kespa cup was okay (he beat ByuN 4-1 right after GSLS2 final which is impressive, then lost to TY). And Blizzcon was still solid, he played better than Stats for most of their series but threw a couple games. He was on a winning streak vs ByuN and Dark at the time as well which sucks.
If it wasn't for teamkills in late 2016, he had a very good shot at winning Blizzcon and Kespa Cup. He did good at HSC as well right? As soon as KT disbanded he started sucking.
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On July 03 2017 03:45 Fango wrote:
As soon as KT disbanded he started sucking.
That's oversimplifying things. He had some solid performances earlier this year, most notably qualifying for SSL with wins over soO, Dark and herO, none of which he'd ever manage in his current form. There's been a strong decline ever since late March.
On July 03 2017 03:25 Fango wrote:
TY is a good example, he's never high ranked on ladder and when he streams its a lot of meme games.
The reason he's almost never highly ranked on ladder is that he actually leaves league every time his barcode hits GM, he plays hundreds of ladder games every season like most pros do.
Still, it leaves us with an interesting question. We know TY, Stats, Leenock, jjakji all still practice with each other. So then what is Zest doing?
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Practice with Zest is a bad idea atm i guess
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Austria24422 Posts
That's silly. Practicing with Zest is valuable for anyone, don't fool yourself. He's not a horrible player and practice partners are a rare thing these days.
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Yes it is, because it was sarcastic and a hyperbola.
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Zest is just bad (compared to old Zest)
also the Zest is Best meme is officially dead.
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On July 03 2017 15:12 AzAlexZ wrote:
Zest is just bad (compared to old Zest)
also the Zest is Best meme is officially dead.
Zest will always be best in my heart <3
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Zest is not the best atm but he can be if he knows what his problems are and working on to fix these.
I'm still puzzled on what his problems are. He certainly practices more lately. Just before qualifiers, he streamed like a mad man everyday. Doing well in ladder too. He has former-KT teammates around in case he wants to custom practice. He has other friends like herO too. So practice partners are plenty. He certainly has the skills of course so no issue there. He always looks confident so it doesn't appear he has nerve issue.
He just doesn't play well because he doesn't play well?
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On July 04 2017 01:48 AshC wrote:
Zest is not the best atm but he can be if he knows what his problems are and working on to fix these.
I'm still puzzled on what his problems are. He certainly practices more lately. Just before qualifiers, he streamed like a mad man everyday. Doing well in ladder too. He has former-KT teammates around in case he wants to custom practice. He has other friends like herO too. So practice partners are plenty. He certainly has the skills of course so no issue there. He always looks confident so it doesn't appear he has nerve issue.
He just doesn't play well because he doesn't play well?
I think that he just makes bad decision. Like he is defending a push pretty well and suddenly he decides that it is the time to crush the push and just engage badly. I also think he is lacking some defense in early-middle game. I have the impression that he almost always lose before the late game. Maybe some players are a bit affraid of his mechanics and prefer to kill him before the late game. If I remember well, when he was dominant, he always had a solid defense with a bit of aggression and then went to late game. Maybe the meta is not really suited for him with most games ending early. I don't really know the problem in PvZ (I've always been bad in this matchup althrough I am only diamond). But he clearly has problem engaging the marine-marauder-liberators (looks like every protoss has problem with it due to the fact that the units are very costly and you only have a few, not like zergs that can sacrify zergling to take the shots from liberators).
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On July 03 2017 03:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2017 16:49 Plopus wrote:On July 02 2017 01:07 Fango wrote:
While players like soO benefit from being teamless. Zest needs someone to tell him what to do I'm not really sure that the lack of team is the major factor. Zest's level was already decreasing at the end of the proleague and the lasts season of GSL last year. I think it's more about the meta. I think he is not really adapting and if you add this lack of adaptation to the fact that the balance doesn't seem to be really okay at the moment for protoss... Nahh it's the team factor I think. Zest's mechanical skill is still very good, he's just clueless about the meta and strategy part. I'm gonna assume that on KT he had a coach and practice partners that he used to learn what builds etc to do. Why does everyone think he was playing badly before KT disbanded? Every player that isn't on JinAir sucked by the end of proleague lets be real here. The GSL loss to Taeja hurt him but he bounced back. Kespa cup was okay (he beat ByuN 4-1 right after GSLS2 final which is impressive, then lost to TY). And Blizzcon was still solid, he played better than Stats for most of their series but threw a couple games. He was on a winning streak vs ByuN and Dark at the time as well which sucks. If it wasn't for teamkills in late 2016, he had a very good shot at winning Blizzcon and Kespa Cup. He did good at HSC as well right? As soon as KT disbanded he started sucking.
You are right, he still had good performance and most players started sucking at the end of the proleague. Maybe I just explained my thoughts badly. What I wanted to say is that he became less dominant before the end of proleague. Maybe it was not become his level decreased but because players got used to his playstyle. However I have the impression that at this time he still had some idea about how to play the game but just took many bad engagment. Now he is still awsome mechanically but his defense is not as solid as it was and he takes some terrible fight (especially when defending) while he could have waited longer.
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When you play a 6800 MMR zerg you're playing a high ranked zerg. Could be a god like soO or Dark or Rogue, or maybe Scarlett, Losira, Leenock etc. This is all true, but there's no way to justify the actual level of skill of the average ladder game being the same as in a tournament, or with intense practice partners.
Many top players practice with eachother in preperation for tournament matches (almost all of them say this actually). TY is a good example, he's never high ranked on ladder and when he streams its a lot of meme games. He clearly trains in private. When asked in interviewed he often says that he's practiced with Maru, Stats, Rogue etc.
ByuN has done countless streams of him getting no.1 on the ladder and barely losing any games doing it. Is he the best player in the world then? Because in real tournaments right now he's not even top 5 terran. Creator, Keen, Impact etc are other guys that hover 6700MMR (ish) I believe, I guess they're GSL champion contenders right?
I think most of us agree that a rank on ladder is not always equal to where that player is in Korea. For example if Zest is ranked 10th on ladder that does not mean he is the 10th best player in the world at that moment.
We have seen that first hand where Zest is playing well on ladder and can't beat players who are marginal in Korean Starcraft. Despite that you can;t say that the players in the top 50 in Korean ladder are not top players because they are. There are no team houses any longer team membership is more a sponsorship than a real team. The team houses are gone so the idea of a guy practicing exclusively against his pals in the house are over. Of course you have friends and peers you can work with but you still need to get much of your practice on ladder.
Now ladder play is different than being in a big tournament. Guys quit faster. If a guy tries an early attack and it fails he might just GG. Once a guy feels he only has a 33% chance of winning he may just tap out when he will try and gut it out in a tournament situation.
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Somebody mentioned KT Rolster's coach. Kang Doh Gyung was perhaps the best coach in Starcraft 2. A former Broodwar progamer and a bit of a dandy he was a fine coach who helped develop the talents of TY and Stats into elite players.
While those guys did well apart from him Zest obviously has struggled. He was a fine coach. Note also that up through 2015 Zest had the legend Flash on his team an incredible resource especially against Terran. Flash was never en elite SC2 player but I can imagine he was a hell of a teammate.
Note also that even with Flash on the team the captain of that team was Zest.
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Zest going to win Olimoleague?
Frustrating actually. He beats Gumiho in group 2-1 and right this minute is up on classic 2-0 beating him easy. It's like the prime Zest woke up.
Still just an online tourney with $250 prize money and very few WCS points. The top Koreans are there.
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On July 04 2017 21:19 Rolltide wrote:
Zest going to win Olimoleague?
Frustrating actually. He beats Gumiho in group 2-1 and right this minute is up on classic 2-0 beating him easy. It's like the prime Zest woke up.
Still just an online tourney with $250 prize money and very few WCS points. The top Koreans are there.
He is looking good today but if he plays vs Innovation in final, I won't keep my hope up.
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On July 04 2017 21:19 Rolltide wrote:
Zest going to win Olimoleague?
Frustrating actually. He beats Gumiho in group 2-1 and right this minute is up on classic 2-0 beating him easy. It's like the prime Zest woke up.
Still just an online tourney with $250 prize money and very few WCS points. The top Koreans are there.
he didnt "wake up", this is standard Zest, you just circlejerking that hes bad, he literally beats everyone in PvP, PvT and PvZ have balance issues so all tosses are "bad" in it, you can see hes still top 3 toss when he plays PvP because he is the best at it
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EPT
