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On July 04 2017 21:32 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2017 21:19 Rolltide wrote:
Zest going to win Olimoleague?
Frustrating actually. He beats Gumiho in group 2-1 and right this minute is up on classic 2-0 beating him easy. It's like the prime Zest woke up.
Still just an online tourney with $250 prize money and very few WCS points. The top Koreans are there. he didnt "wake up", this is standard Zest, you just circlejerking that hes bad, he literally beats everyone in PvP, PvT and PvZ have balance issues so all tosses are "bad" in it, you can see hes still top 3 toss when he plays PvP because he is the best at it
He won against Gumiho! I know that beating classic is not very impressive as his PvP was always good. However I don't think we can call it the "standard Zest" as the standard Zest would be among the top 8players in korea which he isn't. We can't only blame balance issue as some other protoss (Classic, Stat, hero and SOS) are still having good results.
Latter addition:
I just noticed that Zest is the 6th best protoss in korea, which is pretty okay. However he is only the 21st player overall in Korea. So I imagine that the balance is a bigger factor than what I previously thought (PvZ seems okay, but TvZ and TvP look biased towards the Terrans. Still, I would not say that Zest has the same level as before or at least his playstyle does not totally fit the meta.
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On July 04 2017 22:09 Plopus wrote:
Latter addition:
I just noticed that Zest is the 6th best protoss in korea, which is pretty okay. However he is only the 21st player overall in Korea. So I imagine that the balance is a bigger factor than what I previously thought (PvZ seems okay, but TvZ and TvP look biased towards the Terrans. Still, I would not say that Zest has the same level as before or at least his playstyle does not totally fit the meta.
"PvZ seems okay"
when was the last time you took a look at statistics? :p
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On July 04 2017 22:54 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2017 22:09 Plopus wrote:
Latter addition:
I just noticed that Zest is the 6th best protoss in korea, which is pretty okay. However he is only the 21st player overall in Korea. So I imagine that the balance is a bigger factor than what I previously thought (PvZ seems okay, but TvZ and TvP look biased towards the Terrans. Still, I would not say that Zest has the same level as before or at least his playstyle does not totally fit the meta. "PvZ seems okay" when was the last time you took a look at statistics? :p
I only checked the WCS Korea ranking. I know that if you look at the foreigners, Zergs have always been better than other races. (I also said "seems" because it's not really possible to have a perfect balance and I know that PvZ is a favoring Zerg).
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At least in SSL premier day one the toss players were able to defeat the zerg opponents. It's definitely possible even though zerg probably has a slight edge
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On July 04 2017 23:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
At least in SSL premier day one the toss players were able to defeat the zerg opponents. It's definitely possible even though zerg probably has a slight edge
It also helps that ssl doesn't use the ladder map pool.
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Oh yeah for sure. Maps are a big deal for this balance conversation
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Lost 4-1 vs Impact in the final. Not a bad day for Zest but not vintage Zest. In game 2 he survived spectacularly against a massive Hydra attack. He chased off Impact's army shaving off the damaged ones from the back but instead of then backing off and regrouping he wrongly decided to keep pressuring. Lost a major skirmish and then tapped out.
A major strategic mistake that put Impact up 2-0 and basically finished him because he lost to a Zergling rush in game 3.
Impact is playing really well. Playing like Dark or Soo right now. Came back from a 2-0 against Innovation to win 3-2.
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"just noticed that Zest is the 6th best protoss in korea, which is pretty okay."
Yeah but that is with Protoss in a sorry state. SoS has been terrible, Classic has not been that good. No Rain or Parting any longer. No young players coming up.
At present I would add 2 foreign Protoss to that group ahead of him Neeb and Showtime.
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Stats, herO, Classic, and Dear have been looking decent recently. It's Zest, sOs, and Patience that need to step it up
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On July 04 2017 23:45 Rolltide wrote:
"just noticed that Zest is the 6th best protoss in korea, which is pretty okay."
Yeah but that is with Protoss in a sorry state. SoS has been terrible, Classic has not been that good. No Rain or Parting any longer. No young players coming up.
At present I would add 2 foreign Protoss to that group ahead of him Neeb and Showtime.
It's still a hint suggesting that Zest is not really in bad shape but mostly that the meta/balance is the biggest problem. I totally agree for Neeb but i'm not really sure for Showtime. I feel like Showtime has the same problem as Zest, and PtitDrogo regarding their recent results.
Regarding the new players: It's been a long time since the last time a new good player came to starcraft. We are seing the same faces over and over. Maybe the game has lost some dynamic. (But we are not on the good chat to speack about it).
We will see after the next balance changes if Zest, and other protoss are able to step up again.
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Zest technically has more WCS points than Showtime but I'm going to rank the best Protoss in Europe a hair above Zest the way he has played this year.
I still remember Showtime winning his group in the world championships when he beat Dear and shocked everyone by beating Byun 2-0. He can be somewhat unpredictable and when he used Carriers to get the edge in a match against Nerchio last year I instantly became a fan.
Based on WCS points Neeb is blowing the foreign circuit away and could eaily be called the 2nd best Protoss in the world.
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I'm a believer that Protoss offers the units to adapt to different meta/balance. Carriers for example were improved with LOTV yet nobody makes them. They can be a safe distance away from Hydras or Marines and still hit them with interceptors. I just beat a Zerg player on ladder that way.
My build was Carriers-Chargelots. She saw I was making Carriers and switched from roaches to Hydras but I went through them like a hot knife through butter. Making Zealots saved on the gas I needed and the charge upgrade is now cheap 100/100, like the Zergling speed upgrade. Why was it ever more expensive?
I did that build after I lost to Carriers when my opponent expertly kept them out of range of my cannons and stalkers.
Why do so many Protoss players let medivacs hover over Terran bio healing them? I go after them even if it means losing some stalkers. I'll blink underneath them and focus fire.
Tempests a unit Artosis called the most powerful in the entire game(Zest vs Life game 3 blizzcon 2014) are not being used. Why? It is the most ranged unit in the game!
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So the second best toss in the world could'nt get to code s ?
Sure neeb is great but I don"t believe he is that good.
Tempests and carriers are good but super expensive and kinda slow to get, I mean if you rush them with only chargelots can you hold the pretty common hydra ling bane push ?
And I believe mass marines with upgrades actually beats carriers because they can kill interceptors so fast^^
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Zest is getting beat by wings of liberty builds so current meta might not be an excuse. He has trouble with Zergling rushes.
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Neeb the 2nd best protoss? Not even close. He couldn't get into Code S or IEM, and he trades maps evenly with Major and Scarlett who consistantly get beaten by Code S players
He's probably better than Zest, but I'd put Stats, Classic, Dear, and herO on a level above him any day
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He's probably better than Zest, but I'd put Stats, Classic, Dear, and herO on a level above him any day
Why would you put Dear ahead of him he has done nothing this year and is actually behind Zest in WCS points. Think about that, Zest has had an absolutely rotten year and he is still ahead of Dear.
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On July 06 2017 22:06 Rolltide wrote:Show nested quote +He's probably better than Zest, but I'd put Stats, Classic, Dear, and herO on a level above him any day Why would you put Dear ahead of him he has done nothing this year and is actually behind Zest in WCS points. Think about that, Zest has had an absolutely rotten year and he is still ahead of Dear.
His WCS standings look poor, but that doesn't change the fact that Dear is very strong right now. Wins against ByuN, Maru, Classic, ByuL and herO speak to that. On Twitter MajOr said that Dear is the best Protoss right now.
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On July 06 2017 22:06 Rolltide wrote:Show nested quote +He's probably better than Zest, but I'd put Stats, Classic, Dear, and herO on a level above him any day Why would you put Dear ahead of him he has done nothing this year and is actually behind Zest in WCS points. Think about that, Zest has had an absolutely rotten year and he is still ahead of Dear.
Going of form not points, (remember Dear took time off at the start of the year btw, he has no points from GSL S1 or IEMs). Right now he's looking sick. He been crushing Maru, Byul, Classic, ByuN etc
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EPT
