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This discussion got away from us. This is not the GOAT board. It is the Zest fan club board. Emotion has something to do with it.
I was devastated when Inno won 3-0 at the WCS in 2015. He has slammed Zest several times this year. I want Zest to hand him his ass after Tastosis tell us how Zest has no chance to beat him!
As for MVP he is not playing full time any longer. Life would be part of this discussion he eliminated Zest in WCS in 2014 and was certainly on his way to being legendary at such a young age except for one tiny detail. He's a cheater and was kicked out of professional Starcraft!!!!!
MVP and Life cannot be current rivals of Zest, Innovation can.
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On June 14 2017 21:20 Rolltide wrote:
This discussion got away from us. This is not the GOAT board. It is the Zest fan club board. Emotion has something to do with it.
I was devastated when Inno won 3-0 at the WCS in 2015. He has slammed Zest several times this year. I want Zest to hand him his ass after Tastosis tell us how Zest has no chance to beat him!
As for MVP he is not playing full time any longer. Life would be part of this discussion he eliminated Zest in WCS in 2014 and was certainly on his way to being legendary at such a young age except for one tiny detail. He's a cheater and was kicked out of professional Starcraft!!!!!
MVP and Life cannot be current rivals of Zest, Innovation can.
On that subject. I still believe zest would have won blizzcon if life didn't take him out in ro16. The 3 maps he lost came down to getting lings through the wall in 2, and a failed cannon rush in the other. So unlucky. And life had such an easy finals as well against MMA. I'm so glad the ro16 at blizzcon has group stages now.
Edit: level of skill of top8 korea this year vs 2016 is crazy. Last year byun stats and dark were the only guys performing good. Now its actually competitive
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Zest would have probably lost to Taeja at blizzcon because his vT was pretty bad that year compared to his other MU-s
And Taeja was playing like a God that tournament
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On June 14 2017 17:12 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 10:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 14 2017 09:08 Olli wrote:On June 14 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On June 14 2017 04:57 Charoisaur wrote:On June 13 2017 06:25 pvsnp wrote:On June 13 2017 06:04 Olli wrote:
Innovation is more than a BlizzCon title away from being 'the best ever'. Mvp and Life outdo him by large amounts. Not really the place for such a discussion. But going by Starleague titles INnoVation is tied for first with Mvp at 3, one more than Life's 2. Obviously Mvp and Life have more weekend tournament titles (Inno has 3, Mvp 6 and Life 8) but I think most everyone agrees that Starleagues are worth more. Inno is definitely in the running for GOAT. Inno's teamleague achievements more than make up for his (relative) lack of teamleague titles. On June 13 2017 15:47 Olli wrote:
Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup, IEM WC, and you know, total dominance of 2014 which definitely matters. If anything Zest is ahead of Innovation as well.
Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. That's not a Starleague to me, there's never immediate pressure of a KO stage or a group where you show up prepared or you're out. That and Innovation actually has a tendency of disappearing for large stretches of time - he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. He was really subpar for most of 2015 until he won a GSL when Terran mech was on a high. He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again.
Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) or in his by far weakest matchup during a time when that opposing race was doing great (his 2012 GSL), or even during times when all other Terrans did great and he was by far the best among them, is silly to me. He was in 6 GSL finals and was only beaten by Life and MMA, two others who rank highly on the all time best list. BlizzCon, WCS, WCG (that's a big one, the KR qualifiers especially were incredibly stacked), MLG. Dominated 2011 harder than any other player dominated anything. All the while playing with essentially broken wrists, something that should be taken into account imo - because it makes all these achievements far more impressive.
Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change.
As far as rivalries go, there really aren't any in Korea since nobody ever has a hostile attitude towards someone else and also has that translated into series. Zest vs Maru for example has the history, but they don't seem to dislike each other. this comment is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. It's funny how much people have to make up to defend the narrative that Mvp is the best of all time. Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup In which universe is this the common way of counting and why should Zest's Kespa Cup count but Inno's IEM Gyeonggi not? Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. If that was weak opposition then what is this? wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_August/Code_She was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. a weak GSL??? He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Terran is on a high? PvZ GSL finals and Inno was the only one in the SSL playoffs. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/5really never fell off. and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) wait... he won? If I remember right he lost in the finals vs Life. Or do you mean that IEM where he defeated foreigners? Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change.
repeating that over and over doesn't make it true. Teamleague? I was talking about weekend tournaments like IEMs, Dreamhacks, that sort of thing. Not Proleague or GSTL. As far as teamleagues go, INnoVation is far and away the single greatest player, full stop. He carried STX on his back to the title, won the GSTL Super Ace match, and has 12 all-kills. 12. Taeja disagrees, and he disagrees heavily. At least for consideration. MMA was also a great teamleague player for many years. Ok i have to bite this time. Olli pls, Taeja's teamleague career isn't even close. Comparing Innovation's teamleague success to Taeja's is simply laughable. Yes we all know the story of IPL TAC where Taeja carried hard, but most of it was online and there really is more to a career than one tournament. Innovation has a record of 75-41 in proleague and a record of 12-2 in GSTL. Winning 2 proleague titles, one GSTL. Taeja has a record of 9-10 in proleague and 10-4 in gstl, winning no proleague title and one GSTL. Also if we wanna include online stuff, then let's go with something both played in: In acer teamstory cups Inno did also better than taeja (winning two titles) acer teamstory cup taeja: 55–33 (vs koreans: 29–24 (54.72%)) inno: 58–15 (vs koreans: 30–7 (81.08%)) It is quite a stretch to say that "Taeja disagrees", it's really not even close. Unless i am missing something here, then feel free to elaborate. (though one could argue the Zest fanclub really isn't the right place for this :/) + Show Spoiler +It seems you're completely ignoring that Taeja's IPLTAC was by far the most ridiculous team league performance of anyone ever. INnoVation's Proleague record really isn't all that amazing, and to say he carried STX to the title is pretty silly considering the format. They all contributed, Classic and Dear most notably. His Proleague titles can't be considered his achievement alone or even close, considering he was on absurdly strong teams for both of them and the very format of Proleague doesn't allow for carrying.
IPLTAC however was Taeja and Taeja only. He didn't just all kill teams, he (reverse) all killed and multi killed every one of the best teams in the world at the time. He ran through IM 1,5 times in the grand finals.
ATC is also a bit of a shaky argument to make considering the time it was played. Innovation came off an incredible dominant period in 2013 and joined Acer where he was the absolute star man and had to carry the team. Taeja meanwhile was only getting back into shape toward the end of the year, and barely played SC2 in early 2014. That's when ATC happened.
So really that single IPLTAC is a huge factor you've completely ignored because it was online. Which is silly because players don't get worse online, they get better in their comfort zone. And the Korean teams did take it very seriously.
But anyway, Zest fanclub. Zest > Innovation, so there.
i answered you in the innovation fanclub (it's kinda relevant there i guess), i think it's interesting that you defend Taeja so hard on this topic. Just fyi.
Zest soon with a new championship : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Land_Invitational
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On June 14 2017 21:20 Rolltide wrote:
This discussion got away from us. This is not the GOAT board. It is the Zest fan club board. Emotion has something to do with it.
I was devastated when Inno won 3-0 at the WCS in 2015. He has slammed Zest several times this year. I want Zest to hand him his ass after Tastosis tell us how Zest has no chance to beat him!
As for MVP he is not playing full time any longer. Life would be part of this discussion he eliminated Zest in WCS in 2014 and was certainly on his way to being legendary at such a young age except for one tiny detail. He's a cheater and was kicked out of professional Starcraft!!!!!
MVP and Life cannot be current rivals of Zest, Innovation can.
INnoVation "can" be a rival to Zest in the sense that he still plays Starcraft.
But trying to force a "rivalry" narrative where there really isn't one is just melodrama. Rivals have to be roughly even (Zest is nowhere near Inno right now), have to compete regularly (SSL was it for recent offline matches, iirc) and acknowledge each other (I think they are pretty friendly, actually). 0/3 = not rivals in my book.
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"Force a rivalry"? What are you talking about?
It's a personal opinion! Almost all SC players get along so there are no rivals?
Zest for several years was at similar same level as Innovation. Since he is the top Protoss on Korean ladder right now the hope is that he can get back to being a top 10 type player.
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On June 15 2017 11:59 Rolltide wrote:
"Force a rivalry"? What are you talking about?
It's a personal opinion! Almost all SC players get along so there are no rivals?
Zest for several years was at similar same level as Innovation. Since he is the top Protoss on Korean ladder right now the hope is that he can get back to being a top 10 type player.
Zest was once one of the best players in the world, if not the best. INnoVation was too, and still is. Whether Zest can regain that status is something we'll find out in the next few months. (C'mon, Zest!)
You're right that a rivalry is a personal opinion; it's the personal opinion of Zest and INnoVation. If they don't view each other as rivals, why are you insisting on it? That's what I mean by "forcing the narrative."
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So you don't follow team sports at all?
A Yankees fan has to wait for the official ok from the Yankees front office to start hating the Red Sox or can they hate whomever they want? Or since the Yankees have 40 American league pennants vs just 13 pennants for the Red Sox it can't be real rivalry because one team has been far more successful?
The fans can hate whomever they want and often you hate a team because they are better than you. Duh! Like people who hate the Yankees or Manchester United or college football fans who hate Alabama.
Why am I explaining this?
So no I do not have to wait for Zest to officially announce Innovation as a rival or call him a bitch in an interview. I as a fan see him as a rival.
I wrote a very complete post about this and why I personally see Innovation as a rival to my favorite player.
He's really good.
He's a Terran etc.
What country are you from Albania?
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Zest should be the class of the game land invitation in Toronto. The two best Korean players of note there are Leenock and Keen. The Zest of the past would normally clean up on that group.
Zest is the top Protoss on ladder right now a fact that was mentioned by Artosis during the Maru vs Byun match at GSL. The three Terrans are Keen, Masa and Soul. He was eliminated by Keen in group t GSL season 1. Time for some payback.
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On June 15 2017 20:26 Rolltide wrote:
So you don't follow team sports at all?
Zest isn't a team.
And the rivalry always starts first, then the 'hating' begins. You're hating now and trying to construct a rivalry out of that. You have the concept backwards. There's far more grounds to consider Maru or soO rivals of Zest (mostly their frequent face-offs in important matches, be it Proleague ace matches or what have you) - yet you don't see them as rivals because you like them.
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Zest and Inno play so rarely I can't call them rivals. And they aren't contenders for the "best player title" either because Zest sucks right now.
TY vs Inno, Inno vs Stats, Byun vs Dark etc. those can be argued as rivalries
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On June 15 2017 21:53 Fango wrote:
Zest and Inno play so rarely I can't call them rivals. And they aren't contenders for the "best player title" either because Zest sucks right now.
TY vs Inno, Inno vs Stats, Byun vs Dark etc. those can be argued as rivalries
TY and Inno have faced each other 3 times in LotV with a 5-1 (2-1) record for TY. hardly a rivalry.
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On June 16 2017 02:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 21:53 Fango wrote:
Zest and Inno play so rarely I can't call them rivals. And they aren't contenders for the "best player title" either because Zest sucks right now.
TY vs Inno, Inno vs Stats, Byun vs Dark etc. those can be argued as rivalries TY and Inno have faced each other 3 times in LotV with a 5-1 (2-1) record for TY. hardly a rivalry.
I mean they are in contention for the title of "best terran". So you can argue a rivalry. Zest and Inno and competing over nothing and never play eachother....
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On June 16 2017 05:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2017 02:05 Charoisaur wrote:On June 15 2017 21:53 Fango wrote:
Zest and Inno play so rarely I can't call them rivals. And they aren't contenders for the "best player title" either because Zest sucks right now.
TY vs Inno, Inno vs Stats, Byun vs Dark etc. those can be argued as rivalries TY and Inno have faced each other 3 times in LotV with a 5-1 (2-1) record for TY. hardly a rivalry. I mean they are in contention for the title of "best terran". So you can argue a rivalry. Zest and Inno and competing over nothing and never play eachother....
Yeah there's ample ground for considering a rivalry between most of those players.
But with Zest there just isn't enough to work with. He's played Inno a couple times and that's it. If that qualifies as a rivalry then Zest has about twenty rivals.
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On June 15 2017 21:36 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 20:26 Rolltide wrote:
So you don't follow team sports at all?
Zest isn't a team. And the rivalry always starts first, then the 'hating' begins. You're hating now and trying to construct a rivalry out of that. You have the concept backwards. There's far more grounds to consider Maru or soO rivals of Zest (mostly their frequent face-offs in important matches, be it Proleague ace matches or what have you) - yet you don't see them as rivals because you like them.
This, exactly. First competition, then rivalry, finally hate. Zest and Inno have barely any competition and no hate. Trying to fabricate a rivalry out of that is completely baffling to me. I am just confused why you insist on pushing the rivalry narrative so hard.
What is wrong with just being a Zest fan? Why does he desperately need a rival?
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Austria24422 Posts
Well, I do think rivalry is more than opponents disliking one another. It's enough to me that I get the feeling as a spectator that there's more to a series than just that, and that beating the other means something extra, even if not necessarily out of spite. I had that feeling with Zest and soO for example, that beating Zest always had extra value to soO - he said something like that after his 4-3 win over Zest in the GSL semifinals. Likewise I felt that Zest really wanted to beat Maru back when Maru was the only one beating him consistently in Proleague. There are other instances like this too, with MMA hugely respecting Mvp and therefore always being extra motivated to beat him, and likewise Mvp getting that something extra out of it due to his losses to MMA.
Rivalries are a great thing to have in any competition and they don't always have to be rooted in dislike for the other.
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On June 16 2017 06:31 Olli wrote:
Well, I do think rivalry is more than opponents disliking one another. It's enough to me that I get the feeling as a spectator that there's more to a series than just that, and that beating the other means something extra, even if not necessarily out of spite. I had that feeling with Zest and soO for example, that beating Zest always had extra value to soO - he said something like that after his 4-3 win over Zest in the GSL semifinals. Likewise I felt that Zest really wanted to beat Maru back when Maru was the only one beating him consistently in Proleague. There are other instances like this too, with MMA hugely respecting Mvp and therefore always being extra motivated to beat him, and likewise Mvp getting that something extra out of it due to his losses to MMA.
Rivalries are a great thing to have in any competition and they don't always have to be rooted in dislike for the other.
You are exactly right, dislike or even hate is not necessary by any means. What is necessary is that acknowledgement from at least one of the players that winning means "something extra."
I mean, correct me if Zest vs Inno is a well-known rivalry in Korea or something, but afaik neither of them view the other as any sort of rival.
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Zest and Innovation have played 36 times. Innovation holds a 20-16 edge.
They played 3 times in major tournaments in 2015 that I remember. Zest beat him as an underdog at IEM Katowice.
Innovation beat Zest in the 2015 GSL season 2 a tournament Inno won. He embarrassed Zest 3-0 at the WCS rd of 16 that same year.
Those 3 meetings that one year are worthy of a rivalry.
Zest is former KT, Inno is former SKT. Those teams formed the biggest rivalry in Korean esports.
As far as rivalries having to be between equals that is total bullcrap. Alabama blew out Tennessee last time they played and have won every game since 2007. They are still rivals!
I do not hate Innovation. I just want him to lose most of the time. When Stats came back from 2-0 to beat Innovation in GSL season 1 that was the match of the year! Had Zest done that it would have been nirvana.
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An Artosis quote after Innovation took a 2-0 lead over Stats in season 1.
"Stats is like bubble gum to Innovation. He chews him up and then puts him on his bed post. Then chews him again and swallows him."
Nothing to cheer against there?
He's a Terran!
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Austria24422 Posts
Sounds like the rivalry's mostly in your head. I too enjoy Zest beating INnoVation, but that's just because I enjoy every Protoss beating every Terran.
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EPT
