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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:04 Olli wrote: Innovation is more than a BlizzCon title away from being 'the best ever'. Mvp and Life outdo him by large amounts. That's more than arguable | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:04 Olli wrote: Innovation is more than a BlizzCon title away from being 'the best ever'. Mvp and Life outdo him by large amounts. Not really the place for such a discussion. But going by Starleague titles INnoVation is tied for first with Mvp at 3, one more than Life's 2. Obviously Mvp and Life have more weekend tournament titles (Inno has 3, Mvp 6 and Life 8) but I think most everyone agrees that Starleagues are worth more. Inno is definitely in the running for GOAT. That said, I agree that a Blizzcon title probably would not be enough to cement him as unquestionable GOAT, but another Starleague probably would. On the subject of rivals, imo a rivalry has to be mutually acknowledged in order for it to be a true rivalry, otherwise it's just artificial melodramatics. Neither Zest nor Inno have shown such an attitude toward each other. Stats and INnoVation would be a better example of a rivalry. Inno stomped him at Gyeonggi, Stats returned the favor by stopping Inno's GSL run, Inno struck back in SSL. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. That's not a Starleague to me, there's never immediate pressure of a KO stage or a group where you show up prepared or you're out. That and Innovation actually has a tendency of disappearing for large stretches of time - he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. He was really subpar for most of 2015 until he won a GSL when Terran mech was on a high. He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) or in his by far weakest matchup during a time when that opposing race was doing great (his 2012 GSL), or even during times when all other Terrans did great and he was by far the best among them, is silly to me. He was in 6 GSL finals and was only beaten by Life and MMA, two others who rank highly on the all time best list. BlizzCon, WCS, WCG (that's a big one, the KR qualifiers especially were incredibly stacked), MLG. Dominated 2011 harder than any other player dominated anything. All the while playing with essentially broken wrists, something that should be taken into account imo - because it makes all these achievements far more impressive. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change. As far as rivalries go, there really aren't any in Korea since nobody ever has a hostile attitude towards someone else and also has that translated into series. Zest vs Maru for example has the history, but they don't seem to dislike each other. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On June 13 2017 15:47 Olli wrote: Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup, IEM WC, and you know, total dominance of 2014 which definitely matters. If anything Zest is ahead of Innovation as well. Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. That's not a Starleague to me, there's never immediate pressure of a KO stage or a group where you show up prepared or you're out. That and Innovation actually has a tendency of disappearing for large stretches of time - he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. He was really subpar for most of 2015 until he won a GSL when Terran mech was on a high. He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) or in his by far weakest matchup during a time when that opposing race was doing great (his 2012 GSL), or even during times when all other Terrans did great and he was by far the best among them, is silly to me. He was in 6 GSL finals and was only beaten by Life and MMA, two others who rank highly on the all time best list. BlizzCon, WCS, WCG (that's a big one, the KR qualifiers especially were incredibly stacked), MLG. Dominated 2011 harder than any other player dominated anything. All the while playing with essentially broken wrists, something that should be taken into account imo - because it makes all these achievements far more impressive. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change. As far as rivalries go, there really aren't any in Korea since nobody ever has a hostile attitude towards someone else and also has that translated into series. Zest vs Maru for example has the history, but they don't seem to dislike each other. I should have made the clarification that by "Starleague" I meant GSL Code S or the equivalent SSL (the OSL too, but that's not relevant at the moment). The common way, for whatever reason, tends to conflate a GSL Code S with weekend tournaments like a GSL World Championship or a GSL Blizzard Cup or a GSL Global Championship (which were won by Mvp, Life, and Zest respectively). I'm sure you know that the two are in no way equivalent. Bluntly put, the common way is wrong. It's misleading at best and disingenuous at worst. Merely because an event has "GSL" in its name somewhere in no way makes it a Code S or equivalent. It is the lengthy format and number of high-caliber players that make a GSL Code S what it is, not some magical 3-letter acronym. I make the distinction between Code S-level tournaments and weekend ones by using the term "Starleague." Of course you are free to apply the same term however you wish, but if you wish to abide by the common way, then it is only logical to include INnoVation's WCS Season 1 Finals as a "Starleague" as well. Like the non-Code S "Starleagues" won by Mvp, Life, and Zest, it too was a 16-or-less-player weekend tournament attended by some of the greatest and some of the....not-greatest. Doing so would put INnoVation at 4, again tied with Mvp for first and ahead of Life's 3. Count his SSL trophy however you please, but kindly remember that INnoVation ended the tournament with an 8-2 series score and 20-8 map score. He had to defeat Stats, ByuL, aLive, Maru, Dark, sOs, Zest, and Solar to get there. If you're calling that "largely weak opposition" you won't find "strong opposition" anywhere. Allow me to preemptively address the "GSL is not SSL" claim by pointing out that that in order to win a Code S trophy (in its current format), a player must win at least 19 games while losing at most 16. Mvp for instance went 7-2 in series and 19-11 in maps to win his 3rd GSL Code S. INnoVation peaks and slumps like any other player. Faulting him for that is no different than faulting Life, somebody who was probably best known for his insane peaks and disappointing slumps. I will leave the rest, since it starts veering into subjective evalutations of how skilled a particular player was at a particular time against particular opponents in particular form. Whether or not Mvp was relatively better against his opponents during his peak than Life was or INnoVation was is thoroughly impossible to objectively measure so I won't get into it. I will say that the Mvp I remember was certainly a very great player, but he had plenty of flaws and plenty of losses like everyone else. In no way was he some invincible bonjwa who slaughtered any and every opponent with effortless ease that so many people now seem to remember (nostalgia plays tricks on us all). His crippling injuries and his amazing persistence through them were always what defined Mvp in my eyes, more than any display or raw skill or any trophy earned. In my opinion, Mvp still has the strongest case for GOAT, at least in the current moment, but only slightly moreso than Life or INnoVation. But of course time will tell. In any case, this conversation has certainly digressed a great deal from Zest. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 14 2017 00:48 Olli wrote: In other news, Zest really looks like he's back in shape. Watching his stream, he looks crisp in every matchup, makes solid decisions, has good control, all looks well again. It's been translating into results again slowly so that's good. Currently sitting around rank 2-3 in Korea, with only Rogue and soO above him, but Zest has played a lot more games than them. Also has another account at rank 16 with lots of games. Hopefully good things to come! Yeah it's absolutely a good sign. In online tournaments he also had some decent/good games, let's hope that means he will be competitive in the next gsl/ssl season | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On June 14 2017 00:48 Olli wrote: In other news, Zest really looks like he's back in shape. Watching his stream, he looks crisp in every matchup, makes solid decisions, has good control, all looks well again. It's been translating into results again slowly so that's good. Currently sitting around rank 2-3 in Korea, with only Rogue and soO above him, but Zest has played a lot more games than them. Also has another account at rank 16 with lots of games. Hopefully good things to come! Haven't been able to catch his stream recently but that's great to hear. Hopefully he still has enough time to make a Blizzcon run or at least make it deep in some Korean tournaments. GSL/SSL and so forth will be the real test. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Up at the top I have Inno, Zest, MVP, Life, Maru, maybe even soO and Rain etc it goes on. But it can be argued forever who is objectively the best because they all excelled at different times and it different forms. Also I can't be confident Zest is back until we see him offline. But if anyone's known for coming out of nowhere to win a cup it's him. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:25 pvsnp wrote: Not really the place for such a discussion. But going by Starleague titles INnoVation is tied for first with Mvp at 3, one more than Life's 2. Obviously Mvp and Life have more weekend tournament titles (Inno has 3, Mvp 6 and Life 8) but I think most everyone agrees that Starleagues are worth more. Inno is definitely in the running for GOAT. Inno's teamleague achievements more than make up for his (relative) lack of weekend tornament titles. On June 13 2017 15:47 Olli wrote: Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup, IEM WC, and you know, total dominance of 2014 which definitely matters. If anything Zest is ahead of Innovation as well. Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. That's not a Starleague to me, there's never immediate pressure of a KO stage or a group where you show up prepared or you're out. That and Innovation actually has a tendency of disappearing for large stretches of time - he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. He was really subpar for most of 2015 until he won a GSL when Terran mech was on a high. He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) or in his by far weakest matchup during a time when that opposing race was doing great (his 2012 GSL), or even during times when all other Terrans did great and he was by far the best among them, is silly to me. He was in 6 GSL finals and was only beaten by Life and MMA, two others who rank highly on the all time best list. BlizzCon, WCS, WCG (that's a big one, the KR qualifiers especially were incredibly stacked), MLG. Dominated 2011 harder than any other player dominated anything. All the while playing with essentially broken wrists, something that should be taken into account imo - because it makes all these achievements far more impressive. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change. As far as rivalries go, there really aren't any in Korea since nobody ever has a hostile attitude towards someone else and also has that translated into series. Zest vs Maru for example has the history, but they don't seem to dislike each other. this comment is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. It's funny how much people have to make up to defend the narrative that Mvp is the best of all time. Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup In which universe is this the common way of counting and why should Zest's Kespa Cup count but Inno's IEM Gyeonggi not? Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. If that was weak opposition then what is this? wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_August/Code_S he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. a weak GSL??? He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Terran is on a high? PvZ GSL finals and Inno was the only one in the SSL playoffs. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/5 really never fell off. and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) wait... he won? If I remember right he lost in the finals vs Life. Or do you mean that IEM where he defeated foreigners? Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change. repeating that over and over doesn't make it true. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Guys like Life and Maru won when their races were performing badly, they had a unique style no one else could pull of. Inno would never win a cup when terran is losing in the meta.So iIt really depends how you value different performances. Zest's 2014 was bloody insane, such domination SC2 never sees. With him all-killing SKT, winning Code S, 2 other Korean premiers, and captaining his team to win proleague. As well as getting ro4 in every other KR league/premier (edit: one code S he only got ro8 actually) | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On June 14 2017 04:57 Charoisaur wrote: Inno's teamleague achievements more than make up for his (relative) lack of teamleague titles. this comment is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. It's funny how much people have to make up to defend the narrative that Mvp is the best of all time. In which universe is this the common way of counting and why should Zest's Kespa Cup count but Inno's IEM Gyeonggi not? If that was weak opposition then what is this? wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_August/Code_S a weak GSL??? Terran is on a high? PvZ GSL finals and Inno was the only one in the SSL playoffs. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/5 really never fell off. wait... he won? If I remember right he lost in the finals vs Life. Or do you mean that IEM where he defeated foreigners? repeating that over and over doesn't make it true. Teamleague? I was talking about weekend tournaments like IEMs, Dreamhacks, that sort of thing. Not Proleague or GSTL. As far as teamleagues go, INnoVation is far and away the single greatest player, full stop. He carried STX on his back to the title, won the GSTL Super Ace match, and has 12 all-kills. 12. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On June 14 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote: Teamleague? I was talking about weekend tournaments like IEMs, Dreamhacks, that sort of thing. Not Proleague or GSTL. As far as teamleagues go, INnoVation is far and away the single greatest player, full stop. He carried STX on his back to the title, won the GSTL Super Ace match, and has 12 all-kills. 12. sry typo, I wanted to say Inno's teamleague achievements more than make up for his (relative) lack of weekend tournament titles. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 14 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote: Teamleague? I was talking about weekend tournaments like IEMs, Dreamhacks, that sort of thing. Not Proleague or GSTL. As far as teamleagues go, INnoVation is far and away the single greatest player, full stop. He carried STX on his back to the title, won the GSTL Super Ace match, and has 12 all-kills. 12. Taeja disagrees, and he disagrees heavily. At least for consideration. MMA was also a great teamleague player for many years. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 14 2017 09:08 Olli wrote: Taeja disagrees, and he disagrees heavily. At least for consideration. MMA was also a great teamleague player for many years. Ok i have to bite this time. Olli pls, Taeja's teamleague career isn't even close. Comparing Innovation's teamleague success to Taeja's is simply laughable. Yes we all know the story of IPL TAC where Taeja carried hard, but most of it was online and there really is more to a career than one tournament. Innovation has a record of 75-41 in proleague and a record of 12-2 in GSTL. Winning 2 proleague titles, one GSTL. Taeja has a record of 9-10 in proleague and 10-4 in gstl, winning no proleague title and one GSTL. Also if we wanna include online stuff, then let's go with something both played in: In acer teamstory cups Inno did also better than taeja (winning two titles) acer teamstory cup taeja: 55–33 (vs koreans: 29–24 (54.72%)) inno: 58–15 (vs koreans: 30–7 (81.08%)) It is quite a stretch to say that "Taeja disagrees", it's really not even close. Unless i am missing something here, then feel free to elaborate. (though one could argue the Zest fanclub really isn't the right place for this :/) | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 14 2017 06:31 Fango wrote: I agree that Inno only seems to win when Terran is ahead in the meta. But that's the reason he's litterally unbeatable. If there's any kind of build terran can abuse he will win with it. He is the perfect meta player Guys like Life and Maru won when their races were performing badly, they had a unique style no one else could pull of. Inno would never win a cup when terran is losing in the meta.So iIt really depends how you value different performances. Zest's 2014 was bloody insane, such domination SC2 never sees. With him all-killing SKT, winning Code S, 2 other Korean premiers, and captaining his team to win proleague. As well as getting ro4 in every other KR league/premier (edit: one code S he only got ro8 actually) Flash did that | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
like maybe the INnoVation Fan Club or Mvp Fan Club | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 14 2017 10:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ok i have to bite this time. Olli pls, Taeja's teamleague career isn't even close. Comparing Innovation's teamleague success to Taeja's is simply laughable. Yes we all know the story of IPL TAC where Taeja carried hard, but most of it was online and there really is more to a career than one tournament. Innovation has a record of 75-41 in proleague and a record of 12-2 in GSTL. Winning 2 proleague titles, one GSTL. Taeja has a record of 9-10 in proleague and 10-4 in gstl, winning no proleague title and one GSTL. Also if we wanna include online stuff, then let's go with something both played in: In acer teamstory cups Inno did also better than taeja (winning two titles) acer teamstory cup taeja: 55–33 (vs koreans: 29–24 (54.72%)) inno: 58–15 (vs koreans: 30–7 (81.08%)) It is quite a stretch to say that "Taeja disagrees", it's really not even close. Unless i am missing something here, then feel free to elaborate. (though one could argue the Zest fanclub really isn't the right place for this :/) It seems you're completely ignoring that Taeja's IPLTAC was by far the most ridiculous team league performance of anyone ever. INnoVation's Proleague record really isn't all that amazing, and to say he carried STX to the title is pretty silly considering the format. They all contributed, Classic and Dear most notably. His Proleague titles can't be considered his achievement alone or even close, considering he was on absurdly strong teams for both of them and the very format of Proleague doesn't allow for carrying. IPLTAC however was Taeja and Taeja only. He didn't just all kill teams, he (reverse) all killed and multi killed every one of the best teams in the world at the time. He ran through IM 1,5 times in the grand finals. ATC is also a bit of a shaky argument to make considering the time it was played. Innovation came off an incredible dominant period in 2013 and joined Acer where he was the absolute star man and had to carry the team. Taeja meanwhile was only getting back into shape toward the end of the year, and barely played SC2 in early 2014. That's when ATC happened. So really that single IPLTAC is a huge factor you've completely ignored because it was online. Which is silly because players don't get worse online, they get better in their comfort zone. And the Korean teams did take it very seriously. But anyway, Zest fanclub. Zest > Innovation, so there. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
When it's about your favourites online tournaments are suddenly worth a lot. If we apply that logic to all players INnoVation is the unquestionable GOAT with his dominance of Shoutcraft Kings or the GSLTV tournament where he stomped everyone until nobody wanted to play him anymore. Zest's teameague achievements are also more impressive than TaeJa's | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 14 2017 18:07 Charoisaur wrote: You're double-standards are amusing. When it's about your favourites online tournaments are suddenly worth a lot. If we apply that logic to all players INnoVation is the unquestionable GOAT with his dominance of Shoutcraft Kings or the GSLTV tournament where he stomped everyone until nobody wanted to play him anymore. Zest's teameague achievements are also more impressive than TaeJa's I'm the only one that ranks online tournaments as highly, which I find stupid. Large parts of Zest's dominance in 2014 came from him winning or getting far in a ton of IEM qualifiers. Those qualifiers were some of the hardest tournaments in all of SC2, harder than some GSL runs, Innovation's 2014 included. They really showed you who was good then. To discount them because they're online is incredibly dumb, because players still have something to play for. Zest's teamleague achievements are not better than Taeja's. IPLTAC beats almost anything Zest ever did in teamleagues, that's how good it was. And lol, no, Innovation is not the greatest of all time if online counts. Those two tournaments are impressive but don't put him any closer to it since you're completely ignoring everything everyone else did online in that equation. I find it incredibly stupid that online is counted only when people want it to. Nobody would deny that HyuN's dominance of IPL Fight Club is a huge part of his legacy, yet all of it was online. People bring up MMA's ATC a lot, yet it was online. IEM qualifiers, as I said above, are some of the hardest tournaments there are. IPLTAC, at the time, was the hardest team league competition in the world. It had more teams than GSTL, it had all the best Korean teams who took it very seriously, it had the best foreign teams with star Koreans who also took it seriously. Why you wouldn't let it count is beyond me. The whole "offline is more impressive than online" is really stupid in large parts. We should probably let this discussion go though. Zest fanclub and all. | ||
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