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Exept Zest has shown at multiple points in the past that he can play at the very best level when he tries, and he's been practicing with Stats for like 5 years now? 80% of which he's been the better player
And he's not even trying to copy Stats builds which is the problem. He does the same thing every game and it doesn't work.
??
Past form (which Zest has a lot of) is no guarantee of present success. I mean look at jjakji and Leenock. They each had spectacular, championship-level form in Wings, but you would hardly expect them to win GSL nowadays. Implying that Zest (or Leenock or jjakji) are simply not trying, and that if they just got off their asses and tried, they could instantly regain their former glory, is pretty insulting to all pros that have ever slumped (so basically all of the pros).
Current Zest is not early-2016 Zest. Current Zest is not Current Stats. Perhaps he thinks that Stats's builds are incompatible with his own style. Perhaps he thinks Stats's builds are too difficult for him to execute. I don't know what he thinks; I'm not Zest. Regardless, there's no doubt Zest is currently trying his best to improve himself (since his livelihood directly depends on his performance), and if he believes that not copying Stats's builds is the best way to go about that, then I trust his judgement.
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Austria24422 Posts
He himself said he's not very motivated to practice hard at the moment. Plus jjakji and Leenock are odd examples to bring up. They reached their peak in 2011, Zest last dominated GSL a year ago.
I guarantee you that Zest isn't looking at Stats' builds going "I can't do this". That's a ridiculous thing to believe. But that's the thing, he's probably not taking the time to extensively practice Stats' specific style, analyze how it works for Stats, how Stats transitions, etc. Because he'd have to be motivated to do that. The assumption that everyone always tries their very hardest is silly and completely untrue.
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On April 06 2017 06:29 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Exept Zest has shown at multiple points in the past that he can play at the very best level when he tries, and he's been practicing with Stats for like 5 years now? 80% of which he's been the better player
And he's not even trying to copy Stats builds which is the problem. He does the same thing every game and it doesn't work. ?? Past form (which Zest has a lot of) is no guarantee of present success. I mean look at jjakji and Leenock. They each had spectacular, championship-level form in Wings, but you would hardly expect them to win GSL nowadays. Implying that Zest (or Leenock or jjakji) are simply not trying, and that if they just got off their asses and tried, they could instantly regain their former glory, is pretty insulting to all pros that have ever slumped (so basically all of the pros).
Nah that comparison doesn't work. Leenock and jjakji were great in WoL, which is a different game. Zest has litterally been the best player in the world at times during LoTV (and HoTS as well). And he's been equal with, or better than Stats for most of LoTV. There's no reason why he shouldn't be learning of him.
No way he thinks Stats builds don't suit him or are too hard. He hasn't even tried them he just does the same build in every game and keeps losing
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He himself said he's not very motivated to practice hard at the moment. Plus jjakji and Leenock are odd examples to bring up. They reached their peak in 2011, Zest last dominated GSL a year ago.
I guarantee you that Zest isn't looking at Stats' builds going "I can't do this". That's a ridiculous thing to believe. But that's the thing, he's probably not taking the time to extensively practice Stats' specific style, analyze how it works for Stats, how Stats transitions, etc. Because he'd have to be motivated to do that. The assumption that everyone always tries their very hardest is silly and completely untrue.
Nah that comparison doesn't work. Leenock and jjakji were great in WoL, which is a different game. Zest has litterally been the best player in the world at times during LoTV (and HoTS as well). And he's been equal with, or better than Stats for most of LoTV. There's no reason why he shouldn't be learning of him.
No way he thinks Stats builds don't suit him or are too hard. He hasn't even tried them he just does the same build in every game and keeps losing
Motivation is a fickle thing, it comes and goes as it pleases, and I wouldn't equate effort with motivation. Trying without motivation is unlikely to garner the best results, but it's still trying. I can't say what Zest is or is not thinking. I would say it's rather presumptuous for anyone besides Zest to do so.
Perhaps ByuN would be a better example of the transience of form. His era of domination was even more recent than Zest's, and judging by his emotional reactions, he is very clearly trying to regain said domination. Yet for all his effort, he is no longer the best in the world, and it would be pretty stupid to blame this on his lack of trying.
How do you know that Zest is not learning from Stats? Has he said as much on stream?
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Austria24422 Posts
It's up to training methods as well. ByuN might be practicing his heart out, but if he's doing the wrong things then it doesn't make much sense. That's also what's going on with Zest I believe. And I think motivation is the issue here since he himself mentioned it.
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On April 06 2017 08:05 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +He himself said he's not very motivated to practice hard at the moment. Plus jjakji and Leenock are odd examples to bring up. They reached their peak in 2011, Zest last dominated GSL a year ago.
I guarantee you that Zest isn't looking at Stats' builds going "I can't do this". That's a ridiculous thing to believe. But that's the thing, he's probably not taking the time to extensively practice Stats' specific style, analyze how it works for Stats, how Stats transitions, etc. Because he'd have to be motivated to do that. The assumption that everyone always tries their very hardest is silly and completely untrue. Show nested quote +Nah that comparison doesn't work. Leenock and jjakji were great in WoL, which is a different game. Zest has litterally been the best player in the world at times during LoTV (and HoTS as well). And he's been equal with, or better than Stats for most of LoTV. There's no reason why he shouldn't be learning of him.
No way he thinks Stats builds don't suit him or are too hard. He hasn't even tried them he just does the same build in every game and keeps losing Perhaps ByuN would be a better example of the transience of form. His era of domination was even more recent than Zest's, and judging by his emotional reactions, he is very clearly trying to regain said domination. Yet for all his effort, he is no longer the best in the world, and it would be pretty stupid to blame this on his lack of trying. How do you know that Zest is not learning from Stats? Has he said as much on stream?
Byuns dominance was always a bit questionable imo, its not like he had perfect play 24/7 as reddit seems to think. and he's still doing the same style as last year, it just isn't working as well.
If zest is learning of stats he's doing a shit job of it. Like I said, he's been doing the same builds far too much. if it isn't working he should at least try to copy what does
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Austria24422 Posts
I also never bought into the ByuN hype. He won his GSL and BlizzCon at a time when I felt that everyone else wasn't playing particularly well.
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Byuns dominance was always a bit questionable imo, its not like he had perfect play 24/7 as reddit seems to think. and he's still doing the same style as last year, it just isn't working as well.
If zest is learning of stats he's doing a shit job of it. Like I said, he's been doing the same builds far too much. if it isn't working he should at least try to copy what does
I also never bought into the ByuN hype. He won his GSL and BlizzCon at a time when I felt that everyone else wasn't playing particularly well.
ByuN was the best player around in late 2016. That is no longer the case, despite all of his efforts to the contrary. Sure he was hugely hyped, perhaps overhyped, and sure nobody else really peaked at the same time, but he was still the best.
Zest may or may not be learning from Stats, but given Stats's disappointing results today perhaps it's a good thing that he doesn't. Stats is not invincible anymore than ByuN was or Zest was. Everyone peaks and slumps in their own time.
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On April 06 2017 23:55 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Byuns dominance was always a bit questionable imo, its not like he had perfect play 24/7 as reddit seems to think. and he's still doing the same style as last year, it just isn't working as well.
If zest is learning of stats he's doing a shit job of it. Like I said, he's been doing the same builds far too much. if it isn't working he should at least try to copy what does Show nested quote +
I also never bought into the ByuN hype. He won his GSL and BlizzCon at a time when I felt that everyone else wasn't playing particularly well.
ByuN was the best player around in late 2016. That is no longer the case, despite all of his efforts to the contrary. Sure he was hugely hyped, perhaps overhyped, and sure nobody else really peaked at the same time, but he was still the best. Zest may or may not be learning from Stats, but given Stats's disappointing results today perhaps it's a good thing that he doesn't. Stats is not invincible anymore than ByuN was or Zest was. Everyone peaks and slumps in their own time.
Dunno about that
ByuN literally peaked for 2 days at blizzcon, beating TY Stats and Dark (all three of which underperformed imo, especially how they all lost not scouting byuns cheeses). Other than that nothing he did in late 2016 was that great.
Since his GSL victory he:
lost to Dark at CrossFinals
lost 1-4 to Zest at Kespa cup
won blizzcon (woop woop!)
lost to Byul at GSL Cataclysm
Lost to Losira at WESG qual,
and then lost to Dark at IEM Gyeonggi
In other words outside of blizzcon he wasn't much of a threat. I can't go far enough to call him the best player of late 2016.
It's true stats did bad earlier (still need to catch the games). But as long as he tried more than one build thats still more effort than zests putting in.
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Dunno about that
ByuN literally peaked for 2 days at blizzcon, beating TY Stats and Dark (all three of which underperformed imo, especially how they all lost not scouting byuns cheeses). Other than that nothing he did in late 2016 was that great.
Since his GSL victory he:
lost to Dark at CrossFinals
lost 1-4 to Zest at Kespa cup
won blizzcon (woop woop!)
lost to Byul at GSL Cataclysm
Lost to Losira at WESG qual,
and then lost to Dark at IEM Gyeonggi
In other words outside of blizzcon he wasn't much of a threat. I can't go far enough to call him the best player of late 2016.
It's true stats did bad earlier (still need to catch the games). But as long as he tried more than one build thats still more effort than zests putting in.
By late 2016 I meant until Patch 3.8 came out, since that significantly changed the meta and marked the end of ByuN's success.
After winning GSL he got semifinals at the KeSPA Cup, which is fine imo, you can't expect even the best player in the world to win every single tournament he enters. Cross Finals I will give you as a "bad result," though a four-man tournament is not the best example. After that he went to Blizzcon and won. Cataclysm and beyond were on a different game.
So basically he won GSL and as the champion always is, was hailed as the best player in the world. Then he put up some decent but not great results at KeSPA Cup/Cross Finals and then proved that was just a fluke when he won Blizzcon. Then 3.8 came out and ByuN lost his throne.
Sure, late-2016 ByuN wasn't like early-2013 INnoVation where people thought he was the real deal, the first bonjwa, completely invincible and all that, but I still wouldn't put anyone above ByuN at that time. Dark was close but not close enough.
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Ok, I recant everything I said about Zest trying hard. He's streaming Kartrider.
Zest, you deserve to lose.
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On April 07 2017 03:18 pvsnp wrote:
Ok, I recant everything I said about Zest trying hard. He's streaming Kartrider.
Zest, you deserve to lose.
Wtf, I can't tell if you are serious or not. He had a rough day of ladder so he wanted to play something relaxing to end the stream. These players aren't slaves to sc2. They can play other games if they want.
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Wtf, I can't tell if you are serious or not. He had a rough day of ladder so he wanted to play something relaxing to end the stream. These players aren't slaves to sc2. They can play other games if they want.
It was a joke, if you read my previous posts I said that Zest was undoubtedly trying hard.
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On April 07 2017 04:04 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Wtf, I can't tell if you are serious or not. He had a rough day of ladder so he wanted to play something relaxing to end the stream. These players aren't slaves to sc2. They can play other games if they want.
It was a joke, if you read my previous posts I said that Zest was undoubtedly trying hard.
Oh sorry I didn't read the other posts. It's hard to tell sometimes if someone is joking on the internet lol.
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On April 07 2017 03:09 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Dunno about that
ByuN literally peaked for 2 days at blizzcon, beating TY Stats and Dark (all three of which underperformed imo, especially how they all lost not scouting byuns cheeses). Other than that nothing he did in late 2016 was that great.
Since his GSL victory he:
lost to Dark at CrossFinals
lost 1-4 to Zest at Kespa cup
won blizzcon (woop woop!)
lost to Byul at GSL Cataclysm
Lost to Losira at WESG qual,
and then lost to Dark at IEM Gyeonggi
In other words outside of blizzcon he wasn't much of a threat. I can't go far enough to call him the best player of late 2016.
It's true stats did bad earlier (still need to catch the games). But as long as he tried more than one build thats still more effort than zests putting in. By late 2016 I meant until Patch 3.8 came out, since that significantly changed the meta and marked the end of ByuN's success. After winning GSL he got semifinals at the KeSPA Cup, which is fine imo, you can't expect even the best player in the world to win every single tournament he enters. Cross Finals I will give you as a "bad result," though a four-man tournament is not the best example. After that he went to Blizzcon and won. Cataclysm and beyond were on a different game. So basically he won GSL and as the champion always is, was hailed as the best player in the world. Then he put up some decent but not great results at KeSPA Cup/Cross Finals and then proved that was just a fluke when he won Blizzcon. Then 3.8 came out and ByuN lost his throne. Sure, late-2016 ByuN wasn't like early-2013 INnoVation where people thought he was the real deal, the first bonjwa, completely invincible and all that, but I still wouldn't put anyone above ByuN at that time. Dark was close but not close enough.
Lol what Kespa cup did you watch. He lost to Zest 1-4 in ro16.
I just can't look at a single blizzcon win and say it means mega dominance at the time. Considering he got beat by Dark before and after blizzcon a few times, it really was a short peak for him. He was top five 2016, probably 3. But you need a clear lead to be considered number one. tbh Dark was like 2 maps of being crowned indeniable player of the year
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I watched zest stream today and he dosn't look worse than Stats. He makes mistakes (especially in macro -_-), but he is still very good.
How can you say ByuN peaked 2 days before blizzcon? He is keeping good shape for many months (very good shape to best shape). Players learnt his style and beat him sometimes, its normal. Byul or Dark are insane zergs, loosing to them can happen, but it doesn't make ByuN bad player (or not in top shape).
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Austria24422 Posts
To be fair he's played a lot better over the past few days, on stream and in online tournaments.
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Lol what Kespa cup did you watch. He lost to Zest 1-4 in ro16.
I just can't look at a single blizzcon win and say it means mega dominance at the time. Considering he got beat by Dark before and after blizzcon a few times, it really was a short peak for him. He was top five 2016, probably 3. But you need a clear lead to be considered number one. tbh Dark was like 2 maps of being crowned indeniable player of the year
Lol, my bad. I was talking to a friend about TY at the same time and somehow got them mixed up.
I guess it just comes down to individual opinion on how much weight should be given to winning the big tournaments vs consistently placing high. I think that the ability to really bring your A-game and beat everyone else when it truly matters should be given a little more weight than consistently beating most people but not everyone. That's the difference between a champion and a runner-up. Apparently you think that consistency should matter a bit more. To each his own I suppose.
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On April 07 2017 07:48 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Lol what Kespa cup did you watch. He lost to Zest 1-4 in ro16.
I just can't look at a single blizzcon win and say it means mega dominance at the time. Considering he got beat by Dark before and after blizzcon a few times, it really was a short peak for him. He was top five 2016, probably 3. But you need a clear lead to be considered number one. tbh Dark was like 2 maps of being crowned indeniable player of the year Lol, my bad. I was talking to a friend about TY at the same time and somehow got them mixed up. I guess it just comes down to individual opinion on how much weight should be given to winning the big tournaments vs consistently placing high. I think that the ability to really bring your A-game and beat everyone else when it truly matters should be given a little more weight than consistently beating most people but not everyone. That's the difference between a champion and a runner-up. Apparently you think that consistency should matter a bit more. To each his own I suppose.
you need consistancy and victories to be called the best player. ByuN had one big victory at blizzcon beating TY, Stats, and Dark. Thats about it though
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Man the top 16 KR looks so epic. Would make such a sick blizzcon if we were allowed of them 
What's people thoughts on top 8 predictions? Obvs there will be another 2 garanteed spots to GSL champs. I think Inno, soO, and Dark are high enough to get the other spots even if they don't win one. Depends if anyone unexpected wins one of the remaining 4 starleagues I think
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EPT
