EPTGhosts are vastly overpowered and terrans have just scratched on the surface of its potential, thats the biggest problem.
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
Ghosts are vastly overpowered and terrans have just scratched on the surface of its potential, thats the biggest problem. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
edit: oh, and to clarify: even if the EMP vs feedback battle isn't 100% even, reducing the range of EMP would have such an incredible impact that the result would be far less balanced, perhaps to the point where it's technically impossible to hit an EMP on a templar with feedback targetting the ghost. And quite frankly I don't think anyone wants that. edit again: wait a minute, EMP range is actually 1 higher? Well perhaps it could be lowered to 9.5. That doesn't seem unreasonable, but I don't quite know. | ||
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gizzzy
United States27 Posts
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
On October 12 2011 02:04 laharl23 wrote: When zergs were struggling the game was super new and there was obvious things they could do better. Not to mention zergs were helped by a punch of patches and protoss was nerfed more and more. Its been months and the game is much more developed and protosses are running out of things they can do. Its a different time period in the game so that argument doesn't work. I completely disagree. Warp-prism play is terribly underused. You want to talk about dodging EMPs? Try that. Hallucination isn't used, Phoenixes are underused, and the last time I saw good Collossus micro was sometime in July. You are arguing that the game has progressed further than the way Protoss is supposed to be played. My argument is that Protoss should be working to progress beyond the current game. Change it. | ||
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hummingbird23
Norway359 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:09 mbr2321 wrote: I completely disagree. Warp-prism play is terribly underused. You want to talk about dodging EMPs? Try that. Hallucination isn't used, Phoenixes are underused, and the last time I saw good Collossus micro was sometime in July. You are arguing that the game has progressed further than the way Protoss is supposed to be played. My argument is that Protoss should be working to progress beyond the current game. Change it. That would be viable, except for range 9 vikings. Getting a prism of templars sniped is game ending. Why not do this, let's reduce the range of EMP to 8. If you have trouble getting off EMPs due to feedback, use the medivacs that you always have behind your bio to avoid getting feedbacked, it should be a lot easiest as a feedback is a single target spell, no? | ||
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thingULTRA
United States48 Posts
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Caryc
Germany330 Posts
but i think as long as protoss stop using forcefields especially but also guardian shield when they have higher tech armies - which is basically HT's (and i know,it may be hard),i dont think they have a right to complain. thats just something i always see that protoss players do...abuse forcefields in early and mid game stages,then completely stop using it once they reach HT tech.. | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:15 hummingbird23 wrote: That would be viable, except for range 9 vikings. Getting a prism of templars sniped is game ending. Why not do this, let's reduce the range of EMP to 8. If you have trouble getting off EMPs due to feedback, use the medivacs that you always have behind your bio to avoid getting feedbacked, it should be a lot easiest as a feedback is a single target spell, no? Firstly, if Terran is making Vikings instead of Medivacs when your tech choice is High Templar, good luck losing that game. Secondly, even if Terran only make 2-3 vikings for the sole purpose of sniping your WP, you should have stalkers/archons that can easily pick those vikings off before they can get the WP. Finally, I am not a fan of making more than four ghosts because after EMP, they don't have enough sustainable DPS to be worth their cost in a fight. If Terran makes enough ghosts to individually EMP every one of your units, you should still win the fight because Terran will not have enough MMM. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
the reason why protoss having trouble with ghosts is because most terran build ~8-10. it´s easy to spread your hts and feedback 4 ghosts or rather be able to storm, but it´s nearly impossible to feedback 10 ghosts and no, the mmm ball isnt to small when you have 10 ghosts. whats better, getting no emps off and just die to storms or to emp simply everything and destroy the rest of the protoss army? | ||
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:09 mbr2321 wrote: I completely disagree. Warp-prism play is terribly underused. You want to talk about dodging EMPs? Try that. Hallucination isn't used, Phoenixes are underused, and the last time I saw good Collossus micro was sometime in July. You are arguing that the game has progressed further than the way Protoss is supposed to be played. My argument is that Protoss should be working to progress beyond the current game. Change it. Where in my post did I say that protosses shouldn't try new things? tell me. I said the game is much more developed than when zergs were struggling, and when zergs struggled they were helped by a bunch of patches, none of that is wrong. If you are going to argue with me at least argue with what I was even talking about. | ||
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 13 2011 01:22 Caryc wrote: i dont want to argue wheter or not protoss is to weak because i lack expert knowledge, but i think as long as protoss stop using forcefields especially but also guardian shield when they have higher tech armies - which is basically HT's (and i know,it may be hard),i dont think they have a right to complain. thats just something i always see that protoss players do...abuse forcefields in early and mid game stages,then completely stop using it once they reach HT tech.. Ghosts make sentries late game the dumbest thing ever, and they cost so much gas that you have fewer other very important late game tech units in your army if you make sentries. Plus, they do almost no damage and are made of paper, so they don't survive engagements. What matters the most for protoss is retention of gas units, because all of your dps is in your gas. Sentries don't live in engagements past the early game, so you're just throwing away gas. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
Concerning late-game sentry usage... well, there is a point where you start getting those HT out, and you simply don't have enough gas to get a good amount of HTs out if you also want sentries. But perhaps in an even later stage when you're nearing the supply cap, you could mix in some sentries. Obviously you'd want to keep sentries alive from the start, but they're too slow to consistently be able to do that. And comparing simple stats of various units without looking at them in the context they're used says absolutely nothing about balance. Ghosts might need a tweak, not a reaper-treatment. Luckily I trust David Kim knows this as well. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:18 Bogeyman wrote: Come on let's be reasonable here... range 8 EMP vs range 9 feedback? How do you envision that working out? EMP has a radius | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:18 Bogeyman wrote: Come on let's be reasonable here... range 8 EMP vs range 9 feedback? How do you envision that working out? Not saying that I support this, but ghosts can snipe. And it takes less energy to snipe one ht (50 (2x25)energy if I'm not mistaken) than one emp (75), so it should be the counter of ht maybe? And not just fire in the protoss army without even looking what you will emp. Plus, you can still cloak to come near the protoss army. | ||
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sambo400
United States378 Posts
2 I don't understand why all the spell-casters don't have the same range. If Fungal, NP, Feedback, Storm, EMP and Snipe all had the same range, then you could only blame your micro if you lost a spell-casting engagement. I can see arguing for NP being a little longer because it traps the infestor in place to be easily killed, and also reducing emp radius because its still harder to feedback than emp, and with the mana upgrade, you should have enough energy for extra emps. My crying aside I think there are some things protoss needs to explore, like haluc and chrono boost. If Protosses were as good with nexus energy as Zergs were with Queen energy, I think we might start getting somewhere. Warp prisms as well. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On October 12 2011 23:57 Bogeyman wrote: I feel for you my dear Protoss, but if you want to nerf EMP somehow then you can't reduce the range of it relative to feedback. They have the same range, only EMP is an AoE so it can stretch just a little bit farther and also it doesn't hit instantly so it has to be timed right, whereas feedback is single-target and instant. The dynamic of that works rather well, and both sides have a decent chance of hitting first (with excellent micro I think EMP gets a slight edge over feedback though). So if something really needs to be changed, it has to be something else. edit: oh, and to clarify: even if the EMP vs feedback battle isn't 100% even, reducing the range of EMP would have such an incredible impact that the result would be far less balanced, perhaps to the point where it's technically impossible to hit an EMP on a templar with feedback targetting the ghost. And quite frankly I don't think anyone wants that. Well why not use snipe then? It has longer range than feedback and the Terrran can successfully snipe all front HT (see Bomber vs Puzzle I think?) So the Terran would have to make the decision: "Do I want to counter feedback and snipe them" or "Do I take the risk of beeing feedbacked and use EMP to hit all units". Atm snipe is only used when the terran doesnt want to engage right in that moment and therefore the lost energy would regenerate. EMP currently is the normal engagement spell "Well, I hit other units as well, who cares, but I dont have any downside using it". On October 13 2011 03:06 sambo400 wrote: 1 I dont understand why the other races get their spell-caster mana upgrade but not Protoss. Because at max the other races have to wait for the unit being produced before they can use their spell again. P can warpin in 5sec and cast immeditately. Without amulet they also have to wait a certain time until they can cast. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On October 12 2011 23:57 Bogeyman wrote: I feel for you my dear Protoss, but if you want to nerf EMP somehow then you can't reduce the range of it relative to feedback. They have the same range, only EMP is an AoE so it can stretch just a little bit farther and also it doesn't hit instantly so it has to be timed right, whereas feedback is single-target and instant. The dynamic of that works rather well, and both sides have a decent chance of hitting first (with excellent micro I think EMP gets a slight edge over feedback though). So if something really needs to be changed, it has to be something else. edit: oh, and to clarify: even if the EMP vs feedback battle isn't 100% even, reducing the range of EMP would have such an incredible impact that the result would be far less balanced, perhaps to the point where it's technically impossible to hit an EMP on a templar with feedback targetting the ghost. And quite frankly I don't think anyone wants that. edit again: wait a minute, EMP range is actually 1 higher? Well perhaps it could be lowered to 9.5. That doesn't seem unreasonable, but I don't quite know. You have to remember that in situations where it matters, terran ALWAYS has the vision advantage. That combined with outranging Protoss's anti-EMP means it's a losing battle for protoss every time at the highest levels. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
On October 13 2011 03:06 sambo400 wrote: 1 I dont understand why the other races get their spell-caster mana upgrade but not Protoss. 2 I don't understand why all the spell-casters don't have the same range. If Fungal, NP, Feedback, Storm, EMP and Snipe all had the same range, then you could only blame your micro if you lost a spell-casting engagement. I can see arguing for NP being a little longer because it traps the infestor in place to be easily killed, and also reducing emp radius because its still harder to feedback than emp, and with the mana upgrade, you should have enough energy for extra emps. My crying aside I think there are some things protoss needs to explore, like haluc and chrono boost. If Protosses were as good with nexus energy as Zergs were with Queen energy, I think we might start getting somewhere. Warp prisms as well. Wow | ||
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