On April 24 2012 02:40 Poopi wrote: Lol, "behind after the early game", that's how every TvZ goes whatever you do except if you successfully 2rax him (which is more and more impossible on this new mappool).
behind after early game doesn't mean, that he is behind on workers or so, but that he lost an unnecessary amount of workers or units. and yeah, that happened in nearly every game, sometimes to a simple 8ling opening or some kind of roach pressure. And if you want to argue on that level, then have fun, I quit at this point!
On April 23 2012 09:12 Hiea wrote: Well guys, this is actually a good thing, 2012 history says, MLG 2nd wins GSL.
I still think MKP however needs to prepare better against all ins, he very rarely loses a game if it goes longer than 15minutes unless his at a major disadvantage.
yeah, that might be the good thing out of this defeat. He really has to get his mind together again and stop playing bullshit. 4 times CC first in a bo7? Seriously? Of course you get the shit allined out of you and of course it works. He has to go back to playing strats that don't just set you behind and where you have to start a comeback from. Also playing completely blind every game loses him more and more matches. He will have a tough time on wednesday. Taeja is a smart player with great mechanics, same goes for the STC. Those two might just get out of this group if MKP doesn't fall back to solid play.
You have to keep in mind that he's playing to his opponents style. DRG normally plays a very straight up macro game and takes a lot of shortcuts. As a result, if MKP were to play extremely standard (reactor helion expand), he actually would fall behind in macro because DRG is that good. Yes a 14 CC is kind of risky, but it takes that kind of play to beat someone the caliber of DRG, and for the most part a 14 CC puts a Terran so far ahead if he can hold it. It only sets him behind if he can't hold and it gets all-ined, but DRG doesn't tend to do that. It's been a while since I've seen DRG do these busts and I'm glad he used them. He became too predictable in his macro.
I think we should all just let MKP play the builds... He knows much more about the game than anyone here and more about DRG's style than anyone here. Don't talk like you think you're better than him: it's just the metagame. Remember when pros would hide pylons in each other's bases early in beta, then people started scouting so it never happened, and now it's coming back? Remember when it was only 4 gate? Now people trickle it into their builds. That's just how SC2 works.
Well, you can watch a lot of games, he loses 90% of them to early game all ins, either to lack of scouting or being overly greedy, doesn't matter if we dont know the game aswell, his been playing a bit to greedy lately, and if you remember game 1 of the finals, MKP was massively behind but still came back and won, imagine if they started out even or DRG very slightly in the lead.
I agree with this. The only person who can beat mkp is himself when he messes up and makes mistakes, instead of someone outplaying him by a lot. I guess you can say that for anyone as well though. I don't mind him playing greedy, but I wish he would stop being stubborn and learn that he can be greedy, but he MUST scout to make sure it's safe to do so in case an all-in is coming. DRG all-ined him the final 2 games and there were banes morphing outside his damn base in game 7 that he didn't see coming.
Yes, DRG normally plays macro games, but I've seen him roach/bane bust terrans a lot as well and MKP should have been prepared for those. It was especially frustrating to watch game 7, when MKP held off the bust ok and wasn't massively behind, but instead of just macroing he decided to do an anti timing attack which cost him. If he did any scouting at all, he holds that bust easily and wins. Sadly, he didn't learn anything from the symbol games and people will continue to take advantage of that until he learns to scout.
I blame his coach as these are things his coach should drive into his head. MKP is a fantastic player and my favourite, but unlike someone like MVP, MKP relies on his raw skills to carry him, instead of the amazing scouting, star sense and decision making that MVP in his prime showed.
On April 23 2012 18:18 Poopi wrote: You can't win TvZ without being "greedy".
Yeah you are very right. BUT you have to be in control of the game and your opponent if you want your greedyness to be a solid style. You have to scout very well and be safe against common pressures from zerg. Therefor I still think that reactor hellion into triple OC is the best build in this matchup, because you have early hellions against early ling pressure, you scout every kind of roach allin right in the moment the roaches leave zergs base and have enough time to prepare since roaches take a long time to cross the big maps we have right now and you still get a shitload of eco out of this build. I think those cc first and 1rax expand builds are a present to the zerg players and we see much more often zerg players take a fast 3rd in response or punish this uncontrolled greedyness with pressures and semi-allins (roach/bling is kinda semi allin). Take the series against symbol for excample. Basically killed by a roach/bling pressure three times in a row. 1rax expo or cc first are such gambling builds, you don't have a clue what zerg is doing until they may hit your front or are still way ahead in eco, because of an own fast 3rd. If MKP goes on with those kinda builds he will go on to lose a lot of TvZ against inferior opponents as will every terran doing this. The greedyness from terrans has gone too far, since they don't take mapcontrol anymore at times they need to. And if you look at the series against DRG, MKP was behind after the early game in nearly every set, even in those he won! You can't say on that basis, that he picked the right builds!
I love the reactor hellion after expand into fast 3rd CC with tanks or banshee and double ebays, its only greedy if the 3rd CC is at the third base.
On April 24 2012 06:03 noddy wrote: I think MarineKing shows enough star sense and decision making in pretty much all his games.. even more so because of his lack of scouting.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I remember watching MVP games and he would start viking production before he saw broods and he wasn't making them blindly, but just had sick star sense. Things like that stand out, while MKP doesn't start viking production until he sees the broods or colossus with his own eyes, which sometimes ends up being too late and it costs him games.
The thing that bugs me is that his lack of scouting isn't a hard fix, yet would immensely improve his play. Too many people take advantage of his lack of scouting, such as alive proxy marauder rushing him twice, parting 1 base immortal all in, heart proxy factory, drg and symbol's all-in. I seriously think he would hardly ever lose if he just scouted more diligently and not just at the beginning of the game, but to scout for tech switches later in games as well.
The real deal is: The major issue with MKP not scouting isn't, that you can't play solid games without scouting much. But MKP uses a lot of builds that have major weakpoints to common pressures like proxy marauder hellion or roach/bling. I mean those builds are very standard right now, everybody saw them in dozens of pro games, everyone had them in the ladder against him. And either you have to play a build that is capable with holding them on the fly or you need to know wether it's coming or not. He does neither and that is the problem he had in all of his recent defeats. I am a long time fan (for sc2 means ) of him, watched nearly (>90%) all of his tournament games he made over the last year. And those things follow him since forever. And this is the point that's really annoying, he doesn't learn here. Or he had learned it for some period of time and now is overconfident again and thinking that he doesn't need that anymore .
hey foxer fans! i have a request... i saw a clip embedded in a TL post a few days ago.. the clip was an FPVOD of MKP doing a proxy marauder rush expand against protoss. the video was set to some cool electronic music..
ive been digging around but i cant find it in my history! if someone could link the video or point me in the right direction that would be great thanks~~~
On April 24 2012 09:45 TeeTS wrote: The real deal is: The major issue with MKP not scouting isn't, that you can't play solid games without scouting much. But MKP uses a lot of builds that have major weakpoints to common pressures like proxy marauder hellion or roach/bling. I mean those builds are very standard right now, everybody saw them in dozens of pro games, everyone had them in the ladder against him. And either you have to play a build that is capable with holding them on the fly or you need to know wether it's coming or not. He does neither and that is the problem he had in all of his recent defeats. I am a long time fan (for sc2 means ) of him, watched nearly (>90%) all of his tournament games he made over the last year. And those things follow him since forever. And this is the point that's really annoying, he doesn't learn here. Or he had learned it for some period of time and now is overconfident again and thinking that he doesn't need that anymore .
He plays enough solid games? Nearly every game he has lost this year is because of early game cheeses/rushes. Honestly, there is no excuse for him not scouting since it hurts him more than it helps but he makes due. As for the post saying he doesn't scout collossi etc you should rewatch MKP vs Parting in MLG.
Yes he doesn't scout but he knows EXACTLY what is going on based on units etc which is why he will have +1 vikings before parting even gets out collossi
On April 24 2012 09:45 TeeTS wrote: The real deal is: The major issue with MKP not scouting isn't, that you can't play solid games without scouting much. But MKP uses a lot of builds that have major weakpoints to common pressures like proxy marauder hellion or roach/bling. I mean those builds are very standard right now, everybody saw them in dozens of pro games, everyone had them in the ladder against him. And either you have to play a build that is capable with holding them on the fly or you need to know wether it's coming or not. He does neither and that is the problem he had in all of his recent defeats. I am a long time fan (for sc2 means ) of him, watched nearly (>90%) all of his tournament games he made over the last year. And those things follow him since forever. And this is the point that's really annoying, he doesn't learn here. Or he had learned it for some period of time and now is overconfident again and thinking that he doesn't need that anymore .
Yes he doesn't scout but he knows EXACTLY what is going on based on units etc which is why he will have +1 vikings before parting even gets out collossi
Well I can also point to the games squirtle 2 base col him two games in a row to win or genius going col last gsl or whitera going col against him. Most of his tvp losses are due to him not scouting for col soon enough.
I'll just post some records of his stats against the players in Group C here:
vs Parting = 9-2 (Parting haven't won a Bo1/Bo3 against him yet) vs TheSTC = 5-3 (All of these games were played in July last year though, there arent any recent records between these 2) vs Taeja = 1-2 (Those 2 losses were also in July/August last year and that was during when he was god awful at TvT also his win against Taeja is over 1 year ago, so they dont have much records of facing each other)
So yeah, I'm mostly afraid of the TvT's here tbh, Marineking's latest 10 matches score in TvT is 9-1 though (Korea) and 7-3 (International)
On April 25 2012 13:10 Thinasy wrote: I'll just post some records of his stats against the players in Group C here:
vs Parting = 9-2 (Parting haven't won a Bo1/Bo3 against him yet) vs TheSTC = 5-3 (All of these games were played in July last year though, there arent any recent records between these 2) vs Taeja = 1-2 (Those 2 losses were also in July/August last year and that was during when he was god awful at TvT also his win against Taeja is over 1 year ago, so they dont have much records of facing each other)
So yeah, I'm mostly afraid of the TvT's here tbh, Marineking's latest 10 matches score in TvT is 9-1 though (Korea) and 7-3 (International)
On April 24 2012 09:45 TeeTS wrote: The real deal is: The major issue with MKP not scouting isn't, that you can't play solid games without scouting much. But MKP uses a lot of builds that have major weakpoints to common pressures like proxy marauder hellion or roach/bling. I mean those builds are very standard right now, everybody saw them in dozens of pro games, everyone had them in the ladder against him. And either you have to play a build that is capable with holding them on the fly or you need to know wether it's coming or not. He does neither and that is the problem he had in all of his recent defeats. I am a long time fan (for sc2 means ) of him, watched nearly (>90%) all of his tournament games he made over the last year. And those things follow him since forever. And this is the point that's really annoying, he doesn't learn here. Or he had learned it for some period of time and now is overconfident again and thinking that he doesn't need that anymore .
Yes he doesn't scout but he knows EXACTLY what is going on based on units etc which is why he will have +1 vikings before parting even gets out collossi
Well I can also point to the games squirtle 2 base col him two games in a row to win or genius going col last gsl or whitera going col against him. Most of his tvp losses are due to him not scouting for col soon enough.
Lol the fuck? In the games against Squirtle there is only one game when he didn't scout colossus and wow is he supposed to random scan multiple times when Squirtle is hiding his colo? He even lost when knowing there were colossus, dunno if Squirtle's build was too new or MKP didn't know the weird esl map but these builds got figured out by now.
EPT
) of him, watched nearly (>90%) all of his tournament games he made over the last year. And those things follow him since forever. And this is the point that's really annoying, he doesn't learn here. Or he had learned it for some period of time and now is overconfident again and thinking that he doesn't need that anymore 
![[image loading]](http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2313/mkpi.jpg)
