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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On April 13 2011 07:43 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:28 LittleAtari wrote:On April 13 2011 07:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:On April 13 2011 07:07 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 07:01 adeezy wrote:On April 13 2011 06:53 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 13 2011 06:24 adeezy wrote:
I feel like anyone who defends IdrA and his actions in dreamhack today isn't a true fan of IdrA and E-sports in general. All the pros including Tyler and Incontrol have condemned what he did and to be honest there's no real excuse. It was a poor decision that was disrespectful to his sponsors, the specators, and most especially his fans. I mean come on IdrA we know you dislike the ZvP match up but that "all in" wasn't really an all in, it was a throw away. The way MC proxies or 4 gates is a calculated all-in, he not only plays the game but plays into the opponents expectations and the way need to be prepared for anything and everything. The way IdrA all-inned was to prove his distate for matchup, but it ultimately only dissapointed everyone.
I don't see IdrA's defeatist attitude ever improving but if anything, I just hope he gets the zerg buff he is looking for and we see him with games that won't dissapoint us like he did today =(. IdrA fighting Both tyler and incontrol play protoss, both tyler and incontrol will never ever say protoss is op when clearly both pvt and pvz are broken both tyler and incontrol said idra shouldn't become a zvp balance martyr, when in fact every top level zerg QQs about this match up, idra is not alone. (last I checked every foreign zerg complaine (morrow,sen,dimaga, etc !) so yea the entire terran and zerg community are biased and P is not OP the other races have just to play around and figure and play the match up differently, (if i remember correct didn't Terran say the same thing in patch 1.0 when they were clearly the most OP race??? ) So yea they have no vested interest  Don't say clearly. You aren't in any position to say so just as no one truly is because of how young the game is. There can be things that are abusive, but to say as a whole, a matchup is imbalanced takes more analysis. Just think about Day9s approach to balance. Clearly the most OP race during patch 1.0 is silly. The main things changed during that time was reaper, which was an abusive strategy, but to say a whole race as a whole is over-powered is a long shot. People complaign about balance too much. The game is young. If you remember, during GSL 3 time, november-december, there were complaints about protoss being underpowered because of their lack of tournament results. Also, Just because they play protoss and never say protoss is over-powered doesnt change what they said about IdrA being true. Honestly I don't see why you want to defend that behavior. IdrA had a good shot during game 1 to take it. Zerg is just the #1 qq race and has been because of IdrA being the balance martyr he is. I mean he complaigned that terran was the weakest race in BW, if I remember correctly. Incontrol and Tyler both have never told idra how to beat a protoss, just that "he is wrong". In the LR thread, for example, someone asked tyler "what could idra have done against MC" And tyler replied "his job." Every time we ask these professional protoss players how to win from their point of view, it is ignored :/ There's plenty of other people saying he is wrong as well, including day9. And for that respnse for his job, that applied to game 2 where he clearly just gave away the series. also because people seem to insist on balance read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145494¤tpage=712#14228 And day9 resorted to telling him to use more infestors without giving any hints as to how to actually get to them without dying. build an infestation pit.... And avoid the 4 gate, DT rush, 5 gate, 6 gate, 2 stargate, immortal push that is rather hard to scout when a patroling perimeter stalker is denying all overlords.
I think the whole argument is that Zerg is weak in the late game (which I agree with) I don't think anyone's telling Irda to rush to infestation pit, just to implement a more infester focused strategy.
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On April 13 2011 07:44 Minzy wrote:
i laugh at the idiots saying theyre angry at idra for doing what he did round 2, not much he could of done tbh.
^^ that post is irrelevant, are you trying to support it and say that protoss have been working as hard as zerg to 'open' these doors, because that is ridiculous, everytime something bad goes down, it is always up to zerg to come up with a reaction, like back in the 2rax rush days that terran used to do and just dominate zerg, we had to come up with a reaction(or wait for the nerf, look at it however you want), there hasnt really been a time where zerg has had this type of advantage(compare how long this rush was possible to the ultralisk splash bug which was removed almost instantly). one could even argue that where other races currently have 5 doors to open, zerg only has 3 as we have so little at our disposal and what we do have pales in comparison, look at storm compared to fungal, storm will decimate a hydra army, whereas 1 fungal isnt even enough to take off the shields on a stalker. look at the aoe potential of terran(tanks/planetary) and protoss(collosus/storm/ff) compared to ultra's. am i the only one that finds it ridiculous that planetary splash doesnt count as friendly fire.
I'm an idra fan and disagree with what he did....I just dont get nearly as upset or emotional either way about it as TL. People just like to overreact and create drama when there isnt any there.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 06:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 05:41 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 05:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 05:10 originalpredator wrote:
amazing how those games created so much idra bashing..... they left me questioning why i play zerg...again I don't know how anyone can bash IdrA for 6pooling when MC 4/6gates like 25% of his games. 4 gate is not an all-in. 4 gate is not effected by map size. 6-pool on Xel'Naga against a player who routinely sends out his pylon after 9 pylon is suicide. 4 gate is an allin actually, if protoss tries to expand afterwards you can just 2base allin and kill it, and if he doesn't he loses because he's stuck on 1base. I agree with the other two parts though. Actually it is not. You can do an eco 4gate and expand behind it, or a defensive 4 gate and expand behind it (although both are normally seen in the expansion-lite PvP matchup). Even a normal 4 gate is not an all-in depending on how much investment you put into it. Maybe you're talking about PvZ? If it takes an all-in to beat an all-in, then clearly one of them is not an all-in. Yeah I'm talking about PvZ, sorry for the miscommunication 
I think the success of 4gate in PvZ is dependent on the state of the Zerg natural. If you lose all your units and neither kill the natural nor deny mining from it, you're done.
Either way Idra's feelings about the matchup are irrelevant to the amount of effort he should put into the games. If the balance of the game is out of his hands, he needs to compensate for it in his gameplay. He shouldn't give up before games begin or squander clear advantages due to raging. The fact that he plays for a living and has commitments to EG damns him further. If Nestea did the same thing in the same situation, IM and his fans would not be pleased.
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On April 13 2011 07:47 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 06:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 06:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 05:41 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 05:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 05:10 originalpredator wrote:
amazing how those games created so much idra bashing..... they left me questioning why i play zerg...again I don't know how anyone can bash IdrA for 6pooling when MC 4/6gates like 25% of his games. 4 gate is not an all-in. 4 gate is not effected by map size. 6-pool on Xel'Naga against a player who routinely sends out his pylon after 9 pylon is suicide. 4 gate is an allin actually, if protoss tries to expand afterwards you can just 2base allin and kill it, and if he doesn't he loses because he's stuck on 1base. I agree with the other two parts though. Actually it is not. You can do an eco 4gate and expand behind it, or a defensive 4 gate and expand behind it (although both are normally seen in the expansion-lite PvP matchup). Even a normal 4 gate is not an all-in depending on how much investment you put into it. Maybe you're talking about PvZ? If it takes an all-in to beat an all-in, then clearly one of them is not an all-in. Yeah I'm talking about PvZ, sorry for the miscommunication I think the success of 4gate in PvZ is dependent on the state of the Zerg natural. If you lose all your units and neither kill the natural nor deny mining from it, you're done. Either way Idra's feelings about the matchup are irrelevant to the amount of effort he should put into the games. If the balance of the game is out of his hands, he needs to compensate for it in his gameplay. He shouldn't give up before games begin or squander clear advantages due to raging. The fact that he plays for a living and has commitments to EG damns him further. If Nestea did the same thing in the same situation, IM and his fans would not be pleased.
Agreed the natural is the main thing.
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much.
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Either way Idra's feelings about the matchup are irrelevant to the amount of effort he should put into the games.
I would like to imagine you in tournament with 15k prize when you come back after loosing several queens to early herrasement and build economic advantage (untill MC had gold saturated) and supply advantage, only to loose game in 5 seconds to 1 great blink and 2 storms ;]
ZvP is really depressing.
he needs to compensate for it in his gameplay
Oh yes, that is so easy at top level, just play 2x better...
He needs to addapt, but it's clearly not gameplay issues.
Either way i think IdrA's performance was really good and i hope he'll finally learn second race.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much.
But he has. In his games against HuK at Dallas he showed adaptation against the 6-gate push, hydra/spinecrawler rushes, and a willingness to engage early-on to delay colossi production. Against Cruncher he was doing drops left and right (Game 2). And he won those games decisively.
On April 13 2011 08:02 RM_12 wrote:Show nested quote +Either way Idra's feelings about the matchup are irrelevant to the amount of effort he should put into the games. I would like to imagine you in tournament with 15k prize when you come back after loosing several queens to early herrasement and build economic advantage (untill MC had gold saturated) and supply advantage, only to loose game in 5 seconds to 1 great blink and 2 storms ;] ZvP is really depressing. Oh yes, that is so easy at top level, just play 2x better... He needs to addapt, but it's clearly not gameplay issues. Either way i think IdrA's performance was really good and i hope he'll finally learn second race.
I play zerg. Don't talk to me about ZvP as if I don't know how it works.
I would like to imagine yourself at Dreamhack with $15,000 on the line and you've down 0-2 to a foreigner Protoss. Not only are you in danger of losing the money, but your PvP reputation and standing in comparison to the rest of the world are being debated. The majority of people watching are in favor of the opponent, and the MU is known for being particularly volatile.
Oh wait...
Idra is not pre-GSL4 San. It's not like he can fail and just shrug it off while pursuing other interests. Gaming for EG is his job. I don't care how he personally feels about the matchup: the fact is, EG and its sponsors have vested interest and expectation in his success and he has implicitly agreed to play to the best of his ability. When I hire someone to install my pipes, there is no silent agreement that he can put whatever amount of effort into his work if he feels like it. Greg doesn't have the right to pick bad BOs because he screwed up in a preceding game.
Can you imagine the community's response if say, Losira, just threw games with retarded decision-making because he disliked ZvP? Do you think that would earn him respect?
Maybe he should, you know, harass MC's expansions instead of letting them run without a challenge. And not sacrificed those queens for no good reason. And actually position his broodlords so they're not vulnerable to blink stalkers. And not suicide his army into storms. Maybe he should put heavy pressure on P in the mid-game to prevent higher tech from kicking in. Maybe he should dedicate lings to denying expansions.
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On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much. But he has. In his games against HuK at Dallas he showed adaptation against the 6-gate push, hydra/spinecrawler rushes, and a willingness to engage early-on to delay colossi production. Against Cruncher he was doing drops left and right (Game 2). And he won those games decisively.
the game vs huk only worked because idra predicted it, and huk gave idra a free robo bay at the front. he has nothing to lose now, since zerg is terrible and maybe thats why he chose the 6 pool.
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On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much. But he has. In his games against HuK at Dallas he showed adaptation against the 6-gate push, hydra/spinecrawler rushes, and a willingness to engage early-on to delay colossi production. Against Cruncher he was doing drops left and right (Game 2). And he won those games decisively.
Yeah, but the roach burrowmove and the hydra/spine push were both blind counters - he did burrowmove because it's now his standard, not because of any adaption, and he did the hydra/spine push because he knew HuK would be doing the build he did (iirc). I also bet that the drop play was heavily influenced by the map/enemy build order (forge fast expand into 1gate stargate iirc). While all these things are nice to have, none of them (except the burrowmove roaches) seem viable enough to become standard, and none of them really help with the two problems in the matchup:
1. The early game volatility, it's too easy for zergs to die to random shit early and
2. The lategame, once protoss gets a certain number of bases quickly it's GG and many maps are very hard to be aggressive on (because of chokes being heavily favoured towards toss and because of the mobility of blink stalkers+the advantage warpin brings)
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On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Maybe he should, you know, harass MC's expansions instead of letting them run without a challenge.
Wall-off at third, only opening is the small choke at the front where MC's army was sitting.
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:And not sacrificed those queens for no good reason.
All queens were split up, you know, injecting. One was moving to the third. Im sure his zerglings would of loved to help.
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:And actually position his broodlords so they're not vulnerable to blink stalkers.
They are always vulnerable to blink stalkers, just like every other flying unit. He was attacking MC's gold base, you know, like siege tanks can easily do. He couldn't put his hydra or the high ground or he would not be able to even leave the ramp without being stormed or foce fielded. If you think 7 brood lords is that big of a game changer.... They are not. His broods were also 0-0, and his broodlings probably 0-3, doing low damage.
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: And not suicide his army into storms. Hydra are too slow to "dodge storms", I have no idea what you even mean by this.
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Maybe he should put heavy pressure on P in the mid-game to prevent higher tech from kicking in. Cross map metalopolis, what is he going to pressure with? Mass roach? MC already had a stargate and you know god damn well what 1-2 choronoboosted void rays would do. Hydra? Force field. Drops? Possibly, but he would not have been able to afford burrow + spines if he went for drops.
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Maybe he should dedicate lings to denying expansions.
He went 3-base early. Mc took his natural around that time. For him to mass zerglings would be going all in at that point, and after losing the queens and spores at his third, would that have been a good idea? I hear sentries are pretty good against zerglings, and I hear MC is pretty good at using them. If you mean MCs third, again, he walled it off from the back. A single stalker or cannon would defend it against zerglings, and speed roaches would possibly get trapped if the protoss army moved in from the right.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:14 WniO wrote:
the game vs huk only worked because idra predicted it, and huk gave idra a free robo bay at the front. he has nothing to lose now, since zerg is terrible and maybe thats why he chose the 6 pool.
Durp durp. MC threw down the proxy gates because he knew that White-Ra's BO was weak to very early aggression. Idra predicted HuK's plans because, shockingly enough, he actually knows how HuK plays and his favored approaches. The robo bay was irrelevant since HuK was chrono-boosting immortals and he still lost.
And he choose the 6-pool (like he fully endorses cheese as a means of winning right?) on a map that it's easy to defend against. Don't pretend that Idra is stupid enough to think that it was a viable option.
On April 13 2011 08:23 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 07:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much. But he has. In his games against HuK at Dallas he showed adaptation against the 6-gate push, hydra/spinecrawler rushes, and a willingness to engage early-on to delay colossi production. Against Cruncher he was doing drops left and right (Game 2). And he won those games decisively. Yeah, but the roach burrowmove and the hydra/spine push were both blind counters - he did burrowmove because it's now his standard, not because of any adaption, and he did the hydra/spine push because he knew HuK would be doing the build he did (iirc). I also bet that the drop play was heavily influenced by the map/enemy build order (forge fast expand into 1gate stargate iirc). While all these things are nice to have, none of them (except the burrowmove roaches) seem viable enough to become standard, and none of them really help with the two problems in the matchup: 1. The early game volatility, it's too easy for zergs to die to random shit early and 2. The lategame, once protoss gets a certain number of bases quickly it's GG and many maps are very hard to be aggressive on (because of chokes being heavily favoured towards toss and because of the mobility of blink stalkers+the advantage warpin brings)
Blind counters to strategies from an opponent that Idra knows very well. He knows HuK likes to push off three bases with sentries and do 5/6gates as well since HuK's late-game is weak compared to other pros.
The hydra/spinecrawler push was not a blind counter to anything. Huk messed up with his push and lost a lot of sentries; Idra took advantage and pushed back. The choke and HuK's simcity at the natural helped Idra immensely.
He took advantage of Cruncher's tendency to quick-tech to colossi right after the stargate opening. Idra played smart and exploited the weakness of such a BO.
Did he lose in the early game against MC? No. Did he lose in the late game because of the imbalance? No. He lost because of bad decision-making, which you can see in many of his other ZvP matches. And that stems from his attitude towards ZvP in general.
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On April 13 2011 07:45 GP wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:43 Denzil wrote:On April 13 2011 07:28 LittleAtari wrote:On April 13 2011 07:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 07:09 adeezy wrote:On April 13 2011 07:07 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 07:01 adeezy wrote:On April 13 2011 06:53 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 13 2011 06:24 adeezy wrote:
I feel like anyone who defends IdrA and his actions in dreamhack today isn't a true fan of IdrA and E-sports in general. All the pros including Tyler and Incontrol have condemned what he did and to be honest there's no real excuse. It was a poor decision that was disrespectful to his sponsors, the specators, and most especially his fans. I mean come on IdrA we know you dislike the ZvP match up but that "all in" wasn't really an all in, it was a throw away. The way MC proxies or 4 gates is a calculated all-in, he not only plays the game but plays into the opponents expectations and the way need to be prepared for anything and everything. The way IdrA all-inned was to prove his distate for matchup, but it ultimately only dissapointed everyone.
I don't see IdrA's defeatist attitude ever improving but if anything, I just hope he gets the zerg buff he is looking for and we see him with games that won't dissapoint us like he did today =(. IdrA fighting Both tyler and incontrol play protoss, both tyler and incontrol will never ever say protoss is op when clearly both pvt and pvz are broken both tyler and incontrol said idra shouldn't become a zvp balance martyr, when in fact every top level zerg QQs about this match up, idra is not alone. (last I checked every foreign zerg complaine (morrow,sen,dimaga, etc !) so yea the entire terran and zerg community are biased and P is not OP the other races have just to play around and figure and play the match up differently, (if i remember correct didn't Terran say the same thing in patch 1.0 when they were clearly the most OP race??? ) So yea they have no vested interest Don't say clearly. You aren't in any position to say so just as no one truly is because of how young the game is. There can be things that are abusive, but to say as a whole, a matchup is imbalanced takes more analysis. Just think about Day9s approach to balance. Clearly the most OP race during patch 1.0 is silly. The main things changed during that time was reaper, which was an abusive strategy, but to say a whole race as a whole is over-powered is a long shot. People complaign about balance too much. The game is young. If you remember, during GSL 3 time, november-december, there were complaints about protoss being underpowered because of their lack of tournament results. Also, Just because they play protoss and never say protoss is over-powered doesnt change what they said about IdrA being true. Honestly I don't see why you want to defend that behavior. IdrA had a good shot during game 1 to take it. Zerg is just the #1 qq race and has been because of IdrA being the balance martyr he is. I mean he complaigned that terran was the weakest race in BW, if I remember correctly. Incontrol and Tyler both have never told idra how to beat a protoss, just that "he is wrong". In the LR thread, for example, someone asked tyler "what could idra have done against MC" And tyler replied "his job." Every time we ask these professional protoss players how to win from their point of view, it is ignored :/ There's plenty of other people saying he is wrong as well, including day9. And for that respnse for his job, that applied to game 2 where he clearly just gave away the series. also because people seem to insist on balance read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145494¤tpage=712#14228 And day9 resorted to telling him to use more infestors without giving any hints as to how to actually get to them without dying. build an infestation pit.... And avoid the 4 gate, DT rush, 5 gate, 6 gate, 2 stargate, immortal push that is rather hard to scout when a patroling perimeter stalker is denying all overlords. I think the whole argument is that Zerg is weak in the late game (which I agree with) I don't think anyone's telling Irda to rush to infestation pit, just to implement a more infester focused strategy.
No, Zerg is weak at the early and mid game, one of the reasons being the hard time scouting, and if they manage to survive to lategame, their units are good, but not as good as the other races top tier units.
//tx
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Suicide hydras to storms? lol he was in a choke there was nothing he could do, I'm not even sure he saw templars before it was too late.
He had already lost the game after MC was done trolling him with phoenixes. If MC had enough game knowledge he would know - could have just A-moved his army and won. IdrA literally had nothing in his base if I remember right, maybe some speedlings.
He mismicroed broodlords tho, that much is true.
Not sure about harrasing, it's easy to throw away zerglings, but it comes at a cost, will have to watch the replays to see.
Tylers comment about "martyr idra" was interesting, I guess someone really fears the nerf stick. And if so maybe the man has a point?
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 08:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:14 WniO wrote:
the game vs huk only worked because idra predicted it, and huk gave idra a free robo bay at the front. he has nothing to lose now, since zerg is terrible and maybe thats why he chose the 6 pool. Durp durp. MC threw down the proxy gates because he knew that White-Ra's BO was weak to very early aggression. Idra predicted HuK's plans because, shockingly enough, he actually knows how HuK plays and his favored approaches. The robo bay was irrelevant since HuK was chrono-boosting immortals and he still lost. And he choose the 6-pool (like he fully endorses cheese as a means of winning right?) on a map that it's easy to defend against. Don't pretend that Idra is stupid enough to think that it was a viable option. Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:23 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 13 2011 07:54 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Anyhow, there's only so many times you can bash your head against a wall before you start 6pooling. It's easy for us to say he should practice more to get better results, but he is practicing quite a bit and it obviously isn't helping that much. But he has. In his games against HuK at Dallas he showed adaptation against the 6-gate push, hydra/spinecrawler rushes, and a willingness to engage early-on to delay colossi production. Against Cruncher he was doing drops left and right (Game 2). And he won those games decisively. Yeah, but the roach burrowmove and the hydra/spine push were both blind counters - he did burrowmove because it's now his standard, not because of any adaption, and he did the hydra/spine push because he knew HuK would be doing the build he did (iirc). I also bet that the drop play was heavily influenced by the map/enemy build order (forge fast expand into 1gate stargate iirc). While all these things are nice to have, none of them (except the burrowmove roaches) seem viable enough to become standard, and none of them really help with the two problems in the matchup: 1. The early game volatility, it's too easy for zergs to die to random shit early and 2. The lategame, once protoss gets a certain number of bases quickly it's GG and many maps are very hard to be aggressive on (because of chokes being heavily favoured towards toss and because of the mobility of blink stalkers+the advantage warpin brings) Blind counters to strategies from an opponent that Idra knows very well. He knows HuK likes to push off three bases with sentries and do 5/6gates as well since HuK's late-game is weak compared to other pros. The hydra/spinecrawler push was not a blind counter to anything. Huk messed up with his push and lost a lot of sentries; Idra took advantage and pushed back. The choke and HuK's simcity at the natural helped Idra immensely. He took advantage of Cruncher's tendency to quick-tech to colossi right after the stargate opening. Idra played smart and exploited the weakness of such a BO. Did he lose in the early game against MC? No. Did he lose in the late game because of the imbalance? No. He lost because of bad decision-making, which you can see in many of his other ZvP matches. And that stems from his attitude towards ZvP in general.
I'm pretty sure that he said in an interview that he knew HuK was going to do that build on Testbug, so that's why he did the hydra/spine thing. Also, I don't know what lategame means to you but MC had a maxed army, high templar and was taking a 5th base... and bad decision-making? What decisions were made poorly? The decision to try and prevent protoss from controlling a gold base way before he should be allowed to? The decision to go hydras against an almost purely stalker army? Or maybe the decision to not waste his time on an unwinnable series?
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On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Idra is not pre-GSL4 San. It's not like he can fail and just shrug it off while pursuing other interests. Gaming for EG is his job. I don't care how he personally feels about the matchup: the fact is, EG and its sponsors have vested interest and expectation in his success and he has implicitly agreed to play to the best of his ability. When I hire someone to install my pipes, there is no silent agreement that he can put whatever amount of effort into his work if he feels like it. Greg doesn't have the right to pick bad BOs because he screwed up in a preceding game.
I'm not sure about this. On one hand, if Idra's sponsorship was like any other pro athlete's in the world, he probably would have been scolded by his team already, given his 'BM' and notoriety. As it is though, EG and Idra are still together, so you'd think there's some mutual collaboration going on (and I'd suspect that Idra has done much to promote Evil Geniuses through himself-his play, his personality, his results, etc.). If Idra really was in a position where he couldn't fail, and if it really was a job like other jobs, Idra would have switched to Protoss long ago (likewise, every Zerg player would have jumped ship).
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It is Ok Idra, You just wait, one day zerg will be balanced to match Protoss and Terran, then when anyone asks you what to do differently to beat a zerg just tell them to stop QQ'ing stop Raging and learn to play. Give them all the grief they give you. when there is only 1 protoss in the top 20 or 1 Terran in the top 20 just tell them they need to "learn to counter". It will seem like good zergs appear out of no where but it will just be all the good zergs who have been held back by the fact that every other race is easier.
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On April 13 2011 09:21 Drxz wrote:
It is Ok Idra, You just wait, one day zerg will be balanced to match Protoss and Terran, then when anyone asks you what to do differently to beat a zerg just tell them to stop QQ'ing stop Raging and learn to play. Give them all the grief they give you. when there is only 1 protoss in the top 20 or 1 Terran in the top 20 just tell them they need to "learn to counter". It will seem like good zergs appear out of no where but it will just be all the good zergs who have been held back by the fact that every other race is easier.
I'd rather just have the game balanced so IdrA can show everyone just how gosu he is with balance out of the equation.
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On April 13 2011 09:21 Drxz wrote:
It is Ok Idra, You just wait, one day zerg will be balanced to match Protoss and Terran, then when anyone asks you what to do differently to beat a zerg just tell them to stop QQ'ing stop Raging and learn to play. Give them all the grief they give you. when there is only 1 protoss in the top 20 or 1 Terran in the top 20 just tell them they need to "learn to counter". It will seem like good zergs appear out of no where but it will just be all the good zergs who have been held back by the fact that every other race is easier.
Why are such ignorant people posting in Idras fanclub?
Are you aware during beta Idra was perfectly fine criticizing zerg, for example he stated that roaches supply 1 was OP?
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when zergs start to not lose to stupid staff like 4 gates (naniwa vs machine) or 5 gates (cruncher vs idra) or any other brainless all in...maybe then zergs start to win tournments
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United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:37 Sated wrote:
Maybe Blizzard should balance the game? (And I play Protoss (Badly)).
Good luck with that dude.
On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Maybe he should, you know, harass MC's expansions instead of letting them run without a challenge. Wall-off at third, only opening is the small choke at the front where MC's army was sitting.
Then he clearly failed. You should always be trying to deny/delay Protoss' 3rd. Even losing ling-baneling mixtures is worth it to gain map control.
On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:And not sacrificed those queens for no good reason. All queens were split up, you know, injecting. One was moving to the third. Im sure his zerglings would of loved to help.
Not like he could built spore crawlers, right? Or grouped the queens to fend them off, right? Not like many, many other Zerg pros have successfully survived phoenix openings with minimal damage right?
On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: And not suicide his army into storms. Hydra are too slow to "dodge storms", I have no idea what you even mean by this.
Why is he even engaging with hydras vs HTs in a choke? It's well-known that zerg gets it worst in chokes because of the extremely limited range of their units. Why force an attack?
On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:And actually position his broodlords so they're not vulnerable to blink stalkers. They are always vulnerable to blink stalkers, just like every other flying unit. He was attacking MC's gold base, you know, like siege tanks can easily do. He couldn't put his hydra or the high ground or he would not be able to even leave the ramp without being stormed or foce fielded. If you think 7 brood lords is that big of a game changer.... They are not. His broods were also 0-0, and his broodlings probably 0-3, doing low damage.
The broodlord placement was horrible. Against Protoss you always need a supporting army for BLs nearby. Were they nearby? No. And he got his own gold late. If he was planning to get broodlords from the get-go, maybe he should have gotten a better unit composition.
So Idra failed at upgrades as well as placement. Your point?
QUOTE]On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:
On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Maybe he should put heavy pressure on P in the mid-game to prevent higher tech from kicking in. Cross map metalopolis, what is he going to pressure with? Mass roach? MC already had a stargate and you know god damn well what 1-2 choronoboosted void rays would do. Hydra? Force field. Drops? Possibly, but he would not have been able to afford burrow + spines if he went for drops.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I do.
Nothing.
Mass roach is actually one of the best counters to committed stargate pressure. Roaches are cheap and it takes far too long for void rays and phoenixes to kill them. By the time you get a sufficient amount, you're committed to those units and are vulnerable to infestors.
Or he could commit himself to denying the third while scouting the bases.
Or he could expanded more.
On April 13 2011 08:39 Mailing wrote:
He went 3-base early. Mc took his natural around that time. For him to mass zerglings would be going all in at that point, and after losing the queens and spores at his third, would that have been a good idea? I hear sentries are pretty good against zerglings, and I hear MC is pretty good at using them. If you mean MCs third, again, he walled it off from the back. A single stalker or cannon would defend it against zerglings, and speed roaches would possibly get trapped if the protoss army moved in from the right.
Why would he mass zerglings? All he needs to do is deny the expansion and spread the Protoss forces thin. That takes maybe 20-25 lings, 40 at most. The main advantage of the Zerg army is that it can fight in many different places, it's fast and it's cheap. It's great for harassment.
He shouldn't have lost those in the first place. Phoenix openings are pretty easy to hold off, even though you lose map control in the process.
On April 13 2011 09:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
I'm pretty sure that he said in an interview that he knew HuK was going to do that build on Testbug, so that's why he did the hydra/spine thing. Also, I don't know what lategame means to you but MC had a maxed army, high templar and was taking a 5th base... and bad decision-making? What decisions were made poorly? The decision to try and prevent protoss from controlling a gold base way before he should be allowed to? The decision to go hydras against an almost purely stalker army? Or maybe the decision to not waste his time on an unwinnable series?
Idra knew his opponent -----> he prepared for his opponent -----> he beat his opponent.
The fact that MC had four bases without contention is a mistake. And the suicided army into the choke. And the poor positioning of the broodlords. And the lack of commitment into an attack when MC had a low army count and Idra decided to back off. And all of this happened while Idra came perilously close to victory. He made mistakes, but it was never like he was completely defeated from the very beginning.
Hydras against blink stalker army = bad idea.
LOL unwinnable? He almost won the first game. Even with the damage from the stargate opening he had MC on the ropes...and he retreated.
On April 13 2011 09:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
I'm pretty sure that he said in an interview that he knew HuK was going to do that build on Testbug, so that's why he did the hydra/spine thing. Also, I don't know what lategame means to you but MC had a maxed army, high templar and was taking a 5th base... and bad decision-making? What decisions were made poorly? The decision to try and prevent protoss from controlling a gold base way before he should be allowed to? The decision to go hydras against an almost purely stalker army? Or maybe the decision to not waste his time on an unwinnable series?
Idra knew his opponent -----> he prepared for his opponent -----> he beat his opponent.
The fact that MC had four bases without contention is a mistake. And the suicided army into the choke. And the poor positioning of the broodlords. And the lack of commitment into an attack when MC had a low army count and Idra decided to back off. And all of this happened while Idra came perilously close to victory. He made mistakes, but he was far from defeated and it was not the matchup imbalance that lost him the game. He was his choices.
Hydras against blink stalker army = bad idea.
LOL unwinnable? He almost won the first game.
On April 13 2011 09:17 BasilPesto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Idra is not pre-GSL4 San. It's not like he can fail and just shrug it off while pursuing other interests. Gaming for EG is his job. I don't care how he personally feels about the matchup: the fact is, EG and its sponsors have vested interest and expectation in his success and he has implicitly agreed to play to the best of his ability. When I hire someone to install my pipes, there is no silent agreement that he can put whatever amount of effort into his work if he feels like it. Greg doesn't have the right to pick bad BOs because he screwed up in a preceding game. I'm not sure about this. On one hand, if Idra's sponsorship was like any other pro athlete's in the world, he probably would have been scolded by his team already, given his 'BM' and notoriety. As it is though, EG and Idra are still together, so you'd think there's some mutual collaboration going on (and I'd suspect that Idra has done much to promote Evil Geniuses through himself-his play, his personality, his results, etc.). If Idra really was in a position where he couldn't fail, and if it really was a job like other jobs, Idra would have switched to Protoss long ago (likewise, every Zerg player would have jumped ship).
The thing is, Idra is their star player. I imagine Evil Geniuses doesn't care about his BM and notoriety if it indirectly/directly helps him get attention and he wins games. And he does win games against really good players.
It's a matter of expectations. At the top level any players can beat any other player, with the understanding that every player is playing their best. No one expects MC to win 100% of his games. But everyone expects him to not drop games because of his personal opinions of the medium. And this applies to all other Zergs in ZvP. Morrow took games off of MC despite the "imbalance".
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