EPTThe IdrA Fan Club - Page 1878
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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:06 Micket wrote: How's his ling/infestor going? Idra must surely have one of the best zergling production factories out of all the zergs, considering how early he gets on 4hatch 4 queen. Very well. If you watch his stream VODs you'll see it for sure. He's done it almost every ZvT unless he's been forced into something else because of the way that the Terran is playing. | ||
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taitanik
Latvia231 Posts
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Mycl
Australia1370 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:23 Mycl wrote: Idra is currently casting along with Machine in the MCSL "Now we're gonna do the fancy shit with like a screen in the screen" - IdrA | ||
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EsMuyVien
United States408 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:50 -Kira wrote: "Now we're gonna do the fancy shit with like a screen in the screen" - IdrA LOOOOOOOL! | ||
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Makura
United States317 Posts
"Of course its correct, its Nada, however, this will be on the lower bounds of correct" | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:40 Makura wrote: lol Nada to Idra is Nestea to Artosis so it would seem: "Of course its correct, its Nada, however, this will be on the lower bounds of correct" yah IdrA said Nada's the dude that inspired him | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:44 CeriseCherries wrote: yah IdrA said Nada's the dude that inspired him That probably makes Idra's proudest moment when he beat Nada in the GSL. Good times. http://www.esfiworld.com/node/15511 | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:51 dsousa wrote: That probably makes Idra's proudest moment when he beat Nada in the GSL. Good times. http://www.esfiworld.com/node/15511 well some people speculate that Nada threw the game to not play Jinro in the brackets. IdrA even said that the game was disappointing. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
-s2 idra AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW idra sound so sad right now =[ | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:40 Aocowns wrote: Implying Idra is Code S capable? Well, no he sorta isn't, if that's what you meant ;o Yeah, I mean, its not like he's ever been in Code S before. derp | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On March 16 2012 13:17 darkscream wrote: Yeah, I mean, its not like he's ever been in Code S before. derp He earned his Code S over a year ago. He has less then a 10% win percentage in 2012. This is not Code S material. I love Idra, but saying he's at that skill level right now is simply not true. Hopefully he gets out of his slump soon. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:53 Whole wrote: well some people speculate that Nada threw the game to not play Jinro in the brackets. IdrA even said that the game was disappointing. Makes sense. A lot of players try to avoid playing teammates. | ||
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Sebast1aan
Belgium163 Posts
 Hopefully you'll be able to get a big tournament win soon again. | ||
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vlkv
61 Posts
This are some of the problems: 1. Quoting win percentages for 2012 is arbitrary. Why 2012? Why not since December 2011? Or 2011 as a whole? Sure, it is supposed to demonstrate the most recent trends. The question arises though, whether people then make predictions about the very near future (where such numbers might have some meaning), or for a longer period of time. The latter is not a viable use of such statistics, however this is practiced regularly. People in this very thread even went as far as to make predictions about Idra's whole career based on the few performances shown in the last couple of weeks. Needless to say this is completely dumb. 2) When people come in here and make broad statements like "Idra is not Code S material" then I don't have a problem with that unless they decide to back this statement up with ridiculous statistics like under 1). The reason is that this quote implies stability. It is like saying that Idra's talents are not suited for Code S or that he simply does not have enough of trait X to succeed in such competition. To back up such an implicit claim with empirical data would necessitate the use of information that goes back to the beginning of Starcraft 2 and maybe even Idra's career in Broodwar, at least if one accepts that the basic, moderately to highly stable traits necessary to succeed in both games (perception skills, motor skills, intelligence, motives, self-control etc.) are very similar. Needless to say, Idra has had a number of meaningful achievements as a progamer and past success predicts future success. Obviously, environments change, the game changes and all of these things influence the performance of player X with his idiosyncratic skill set. However, people never think about whether these fluctuations in conditions have meaningful stability over time. Which brings me to 3). 3) "Numbers do not lie", they say. Well, apart from the fact that many stats are made-up, are not representative or keep being misused, numbers DO not lie. However, they don't say something in the first place. Statistics are subject to interpretation. And without someone capable and qualified to do this interpretation, they are meaningless. If all you have to bring to this thread or to the community is a win percentage derived from an unrepresentative time sample, without making a point that explains these numbers, and then make broad statements and predictions about long-term effects, you are an idiot and no-one should listen to you. Unfortunately, many people these days are idiots. 4) "Training in Korea did not pay off", they say. This is a horrible brain-fart. In its logical fallacy it is even more severe than 1) and 2). How can one falsify such a statement? Do we somehow know how Idra would perform had he NOT been in Korea for months to practice? Maybe it would have been worse than it is now - if that was true, the quoted statement would be wrong. However, we do NOT know how he would perform. This statement is therefore meaningless. It is merely an opinion, it is not even something that can be debated. Needless to say it also assumes that periods of intense training have an immediate effect. Many progamers claim the opposite. But also athletes, at the advanced and elite levels, are aware of delayed training effects. They often explain, that the improvement in skill is masked by fatigue in periods of very intense and frequent physical stress. To show their true skill, they have a period pre competition, where frequency or other parameters of training are heavily reduced so that fatigue gets eliminated and not any longer suppresses the true, enhanced skill. I am not saying that this is the case for Idra or other gamers. I am merely providing another interpretation of the lack of success in Idra's competition post-Korea, that brings a different perspective into this discussion. Also, it hopefully lets people making such statements look more stupid. I would enjoy that greatly. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
if statistics get you hard make one of those ladder analysis pages or something, but stop interfering with balance discussions. We aren't talking specifically about balance, but the point still stands | ||
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Sqorpion
Denmark384 Posts
On March 16 2012 22:15 vlkv wrote: + Show Spoiler + The use of statistics in Starcraft 2 keeps annoying me. As Greg once said, quoting stats like that is for people who don't understand the game. And while I don't claim to understand the game, I understand enough about statistics to recognize the misuse of them. This are some of the problems: 1. Quoting win percentages for 2012 is arbitrary. Why 2012? Why not since December 2011? Or 2011 as a whole? Sure, it is supposed to demonstrate the most recent trends. The question arises though, whether people then make predictions about the very near future (where such numbers might have some meaning), or for a longer period of time. The latter is not a viable use of such statistics, however this is practiced regularly. People in this very thread even went as far as to make predictions about Idra's whole career based on the few performances shown in the last couple of weeks. Needless to say this is completely dumb. 2) When people come in here and make broad statements like "Idra is not Code S material" then I don't have a problem with that unless they decide to back this statement up with ridiculous statistics like under 1). The reason is that this quote implies stability. It is like saying that Idra's talents are not suited for Code S or that he simply does not have enough of trait X to succeed in such competition. To back up such an implicit claim with empirical data would necessitate the use of information that goes back to the beginning of Starcraft 2 and maybe even Idra's career in Broodwar, at least if one accepts that the basic, moderately to highly stable traits necessary to succeed in both games (perception skills, motor skills, intelligence, motives, self-control etc.) are very similar. Needless to say, Idra has had a number of meaningful achievements as a progamer and past success predicts future success. Obviously, environments change, the game changes and all of these things influence the performance of player X with his idiosyncratic skill set. However, people never think about whether these fluctuations in conditions have meaningful stability over time. Which brings me to 3). 3) "Numbers do not lie", they say. Well, apart from the fact that many stats are made-up, are not representative or keep being misused, numbers DO not lie. However, they don't say something in the first place. Statistics are subject to interpretation. And without someone capable and qualified to do this interpretation, they are meaningless. If all you have to bring to this thread or to the community is a win percentage derived from an unrepresentative time sample, without making a point that explains these numbers, and then make broad statements and predictions about long-term effects, you are an idiot and no-one should listen to you. Unfortunately, many people these days are idiots. 4) "Training in Korea did not pay off", they say. This is a horrible brain-fart. In its logical fallacy it is even more severe than 1) and 2). How can one falsify such a statement? Do we somehow know how Idra would perform had he NOT been in Korea for months to practice? Maybe it would have been worse than it is now - if that was true, the quoted statement would be wrong. However, we do NOT know how he would perform. This statement is therefore meaningless. It is merely an opinion, it is not even something that can be debated. Needless to say it also assumes that periods of intense training have an immediate effect. Many progamers claim the opposite. But also athletes, at the advanced and elite levels, are aware of delayed training effects. They often explain, that the improvement in skill is masked by fatigue in periods of very intense and frequent physical stress. To show their true skill, they have a period pre competition, where frequency or other parameters of training are heavily reduced so that fatigue gets eliminated and not any longer suppresses the true, enhanced skill. I am not saying that this is the case for Idra or other gamers. I am merely providing another interpretation of the lack of success in Idra's competition post-Korea, that brings a different perspective into this discussion. Also, it hopefully lets people making such statements look more stupid. I would enjoy that greatly. Really good post, mad props | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On March 16 2012 22:15 vlkv wrote: The use of statistics in Starcraft 2 keeps annoying me. As Greg once said, quoting stats like that is for people who don't understand the game. And while I don't claim to understand the game, I understand enough about statistics to recognize the misuse of them. This are some of the problems: 1. Quoting win percentages for 2012 is arbitrary. Why 2012? Why not since December 2011? Or 2011 as a whole? Sure, it is supposed to demonstrate the most recent trends. The question arises though, whether people then make predictions about the very near future (where such numbers might have some meaning), or for a longer period of time. The latter is not a viable use of such statistics, however this is practiced regularly. People in this very thread even went as far as to make predictions about Idra's whole career based on the few performances shown in the last couple of weeks. Needless to say this is completely dumb. 2) When people come in here and make broad statements like "Idra is not Code S material" then I don't have a problem with that unless they decide to back this statement up with ridiculous statistics like under 1). The reason is that this quote implies stability. It is like saying that Idra's talents are not suited for Code S or that he simply does not have enough of trait X to succeed in such competition. To back up such an implicit claim with empirical data would necessitate the use of information that goes back to the beginning of Starcraft 2 and maybe even Idra's career in Broodwar, at least if one accepts that the basic, moderately to highly stable traits necessary to succeed in both games (perception skills, motor skills, intelligence, motives, self-control etc.) are very similar. Needless to say, Idra has had a number of meaningful achievements as a progamer and past success predicts future success. Obviously, environments change, the game changes and all of these things influence the performance of player X with his idiosyncratic skill set. However, people never think about whether these fluctuations in conditions have meaningful stability over time. Which brings me to 3). 3) "Numbers do not lie", they say. Well, apart from the fact that many stats are made-up, are not representative or keep being misused, numbers DO not lie. However, they don't say something in the first place. Statistics are subject to interpretation. And without someone capable and qualified to do this interpretation, they are meaningless. If all you have to bring to this thread or to the community is a win percentage derived from an unrepresentative time sample, without making a point that explains these numbers, and then make broad statements and predictions about long-term effects, you are an idiot and no-one should listen to you. Unfortunately, many people these days are idiots. 4) "Training in Korea did not pay off", they say. This is a horrible brain-fart. In its logical fallacy it is even more severe than 1) and 2). How can one falsify such a statement? Do we somehow know how Idra would perform had he NOT been in Korea for months to practice? Maybe it would have been worse than it is now - if that was true, the quoted statement would be wrong. However, we do NOT know how he would perform. This statement is therefore meaningless. It is merely an opinion, it is not even something that can be debated. Needless to say it also assumes that periods of intense training have an immediate effect. Many progamers claim the opposite. But also athletes, at the advanced and elite levels, are aware of delayed training effects. They often explain, that the improvement in skill is masked by fatigue in periods of very intense and frequent physical stress. To show their true skill, they have a period pre competition, where frequency or other parameters of training are heavily reduced so that fatigue gets eliminated and not any longer suppresses the true, enhanced skill. I am not saying that this is the case for Idra or other gamers. I am merely providing another interpretation of the lack of success in Idra's competition post-Korea, that brings a different perspective into this discussion. Also, it hopefully lets people making such statements look more stupid. I would enjoy that greatly. implying that the recent 3-4 months' performance of a player is an "arbetrary" argument... sorry dude. it's a good argument. idra isn't doing well now. it doesn't mean less or more than that. attacking the viability of statistics to make your favorite player look good... that's what i would call arbitrary. predictions are of course very subjective, but the simplest logic dictates that people don't make bright predictions of idra. it's much less likely than not, although not impossible that idra will suddenly start winning everything soon. it's not completely dumb, it's like predicting that it will be a rainy day when the sky is filled with dark clouds in the morning. so if a player has a very bad record in the recent times vs worse competition than koreans, stating that idra is not code s material is ridiculous? it's not ridiculous. it is what common sense dictates. had you stated that incontrol or machine is code s material, everyone would laugh at you, yet their performance is just as bad as idra's recently. what's the difference with idra? it's that he is your favorite player and he had good achievements 1 year ago. it's really hard to inquire a representative sample size in sc2. one reason is that you need a large sample size. an other reason is that the older the samples are, the less representative they are due to metagame shifting and players getting more skilled overall. when someone uses a time period as an argument, they have to consider both of these and make a compromise. how can you say that this compromise is good or bad? you can't do it and be 100% right. common sense it's all about and that's subjective as hell. common sense dictates that a sample size of 10 games is bad, but it also dictates that a sample size of 1000 games is bad because the first 900 is 100% irrelevant for the current time. but how can you decide that a sample size of 50 is wrong? you can't. you have to accept that it shows something, but it's not completely reliable. just like the cloudy sky in the morning. the statistics will always be a little flawed as an argument, but that's what we have, that's objective and it gives a feel about a players performance. the point i give you is that numbers aren't always right, and that statistics don't mean we can make 100% accurate predictions. that is absolutely true. but you can't use that as an argument to prove that idra's statistics don't mean that he is not kicking ass now... that would be like stating that a creature with 4 legs that is furry, shaking its tail, woofing, faithful, licking your hands, gnawing on a bone etc is not necessarily a dog. it's true of course technically but not logical. stating stuff like that because you'd love if that dog was in fact a pig is what i would consider as an useless train of thought... and the sad thing is that you'll have people nodding for you because that statement about the dog is in the interest of idra, but that doesn't make it logical or sensible at all... | ||
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Sqorpion
Denmark384 Posts
On March 16 2012 23:54 msjakofsky wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 16 2012 22:15 vlkv wrote: The use of statistics in Starcraft 2 keeps annoying me. As Greg once said, quoting stats like that is for people who don't understand the game. And while I don't claim to understand the game, I understand enough about statistics to recognize the misuse of them. This are some of the problems: 1. Quoting win percentages for 2012 is arbitrary. Why 2012? Why not since December 2011? Or 2011 as a whole? Sure, it is supposed to demonstrate the most recent trends. The question arises though, whether people then make predictions about the very near future (where such numbers might have some meaning), or for a longer period of time. The latter is not a viable use of such statistics, however this is practiced regularly. People in this very thread even went as far as to make predictions about Idra's whole career based on the few performances shown in the last couple of weeks. Needless to say this is completely dumb. 2) When people come in here and make broad statements like "Idra is not Code S material" then I don't have a problem with that unless they decide to back this statement up with ridiculous statistics like under 1). The reason is that this quote implies stability. It is like saying that Idra's talents are not suited for Code S or that he simply does not have enough of trait X to succeed in such competition. To back up such an implicit claim with empirical data would necessitate the use of information that goes back to the beginning of Starcraft 2 and maybe even Idra's career in Broodwar, at least if one accepts that the basic, moderately to highly stable traits necessary to succeed in both games (perception skills, motor skills, intelligence, motives, self-control etc.) are very similar. Needless to say, Idra has had a number of meaningful achievements as a progamer and past success predicts future success. Obviously, environments change, the game changes and all of these things influence the performance of player X with his idiosyncratic skill set. However, people never think about whether these fluctuations in conditions have meaningful stability over time. Which brings me to 3). 3) "Numbers do not lie", they say. Well, apart from the fact that many stats are made-up, are not representative or keep being misused, numbers DO not lie. However, they don't say something in the first place. Statistics are subject to interpretation. And without someone capable and qualified to do this interpretation, they are meaningless. If all you have to bring to this thread or to the community is a win percentage derived from an unrepresentative time sample, without making a point that explains these numbers, and then make broad statements and predictions about long-term effects, you are an idiot and no-one should listen to you. Unfortunately, many people these days are idiots. 4) "Training in Korea did not pay off", they say. This is a horrible brain-fart. In its logical fallacy it is even more severe than 1) and 2). How can one falsify such a statement? Do we somehow know how Idra would perform had he NOT been in Korea for months to practice? Maybe it would have been worse than it is now - if that was true, the quoted statement would be wrong. However, we do NOT know how he would perform. This statement is therefore meaningless. It is merely an opinion, it is not even something that can be debated. Needless to say it also assumes that periods of intense training have an immediate effect. Many progamers claim the opposite. But also athletes, at the advanced and elite levels, are aware of delayed training effects. They often explain, that the improvement in skill is masked by fatigue in periods of very intense and frequent physical stress. To show their true skill, they have a period pre competition, where frequency or other parameters of training are heavily reduced so that fatigue gets eliminated and not any longer suppresses the true, enhanced skill. I am not saying that this is the case for Idra or other gamers. I am merely providing another interpretation of the lack of success in Idra's competition post-Korea, that brings a different perspective into this discussion. Also, it hopefully lets people making such statements look more stupid. I would enjoy that greatly. + Show Spoiler + implying that the recent 3-4 months' performance of a player is an "arbetrary" argument... sorry dude. it's a good argument. idra isn't doing well now. it doesn't mean less or more than that. attacking the viability of statistics to make your favorite player look good... that's what i would call arbitrary. predictions are of course very subjective, but the simplest logic dictates that people don't make bright predictions of idra. it's much less likely than not, although not impossible that idra will suddenly start winning everything soon. it's not completely dumb, it's like predicting that it will be a rainy day when the sky is filled with dark clouds in the morning. so if a player has a very bad record in the recent times vs worse competition than koreans, stating that idra is not code s material is ridiculous? it's not ridiculous. it is what common sense dictates. had you stated that incontrol or machine is code s material, everyone would laugh at you, yet their performance is just as bad as idra's recently. what's the difference with idra? it's that he is your favorite player and he had good achievements 1 year ago. it's really hard to inquire a representative sample size in sc2. one reason is that you need a large sample size. an other reason is that the older the samples are, the less representative they are due to metagame shifting and players getting more skilled overall. when someone uses a time period as an argument, they have to consider both of these and make a compromise. how can you say that this compromise is good or bad? you can't do it and be 100% right. common sense it's all about and that's subjective as hell. common sense dictates that a sample size of 10 games is bad, but it also dictates that a sample size of 1000 games is bad because the first 900 is 100% irrelevant for the current time. but how can you decide that a sample size of 50 is wrong? you can't. you have to accept that it shows something, but it's not completely reliable. just like the cloudy sky in the morning. the statistics will always be a little flawed as an argument, but that's what we have, that's objective and it gives a feel about a players performance. the point i give you is that numbers aren't always right, and that statistics don't mean we can make 100% accurate predictions. that is absolutely true. but you can't use that as an argument to prove that idra's statistics don't mean that he is not kicking ass now... that would be like stating that a creature with 4 legs that is furry, shaking its tail, woofing, faithful, licking your hands, gnawing on a bone etc is not necessarily a dog. stating stuff like that because you'd love if that dog was in fact a pig is what i would consider as an useless train of thought... and the sad thing is that you'll have people nodding for you because that statement about the dog is in the interest of idra, but that doesn't make it true at all... People went as far as stating IdrA's pro-gamer career was just about done based on the recent 3-4 months results, when he really trained in Korea, instead of participating in mass tournaments in the past months. Sure, if he had been in tournaments all the time in those months, it could be good statistics, but to some extend when he is just practicing, it's like saying Dimaga is a horrible player and his career is just about over because the only thing in a long time he did was second place in IEM Global Challenge (There are probably a lot of better examples). Also, if people are so confident that he is trash, watch his stream, or IdrA vs WhiteRa on youtube. Those are recent results. Some might say ladder means nothing, but if it means nothing maybe he isn't playing serious and then he's still owning this hard? Even if it's ladder, it shows where his skill level is at. However I would certainly agree with you, if it wasn't for the extend people took it to, and of course the fact that I'm a mega fan of IdrA makes me disagree a little extra  | ||
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