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courtpanda
866 Posts
its the same thing in other mirrors, like TvT. if one player goes 1 rax FE and the other goes cloak banshee, but the FE doesnt take damage, the FE has an advantage and is ahead, but the game isnt over yet. also, idra lost game 1 not because of build order, but because nestea microed perfectly. the ling walling the ramp with the queen that forced a baneling detonation was ridiculous. idra had the build order advantage but nestea outplayed him, simple as that. | ||
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ArtThouAngry
Canada146 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:36 courtpanda wrote: build orders give advantages, maybe the advantages are stronger and more defined than other races, but its still just an advantage. its the same thing in other mirrors, like TvT. if one player goes 1 rax FE and the other goes cloak banshee, but the FE doesnt take damage, the FE has an advantage and is ahead, but the game isnt over yet. also, idra lost game 1 not because of build order, but because nestea microed perfectly. the ling walling the ramp with the queen that forced a baneling detonation was ridiculous. idra had the build order advantage but nestea outplayed him, simple as that. WTF are you sayin.... a 11 pool baneling all in is hard countered by what NesTea did, a 12 pool. IdrA lost that game because of the build order. Despite what Tastosis said, IdrA ws really behind as soon as Nestea threw down a 12 pool | ||
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Seraphone
United Kingdom1219 Posts
On January 14 2012 01:58 ArtThouAngry wrote: WTF are you sayin.... a 11 pool baneling all in is hard countered by what NesTea did, a 12 pool. IdrA lost that game because of the build order. Despite what Tastosis said, IdrA ws really behind as soon as Nestea threw down a 12 pool Idra could absolutely have won that game. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:56 cydial wrote: Link to game? It is from GSL Code S, group C. You gotta pay for a ticket to watch them | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:06 Seraphone wrote: Idra could absolutely have won that game. No. You clearly don't know the match-up at all. *edit* Okay, I don't need to sound like a complete ass. If you actually don't understand ZvZ fully, a fundamental understanding is that when early pools are dropped by both players, the later one has the advantage. In a 6pool vs. a 7pool, the 7pool has the advantage. Not much, but it's there. In the case of the 6pool vs. a 10pool, the 10pool is pretty much the hard counter a 6pool. I'd say a 12pool is probably the latest you could get an "early-pool" | ||
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ArtThouAngry
Canada146 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:30 Mr Showtime wrote: No. You clearly don't know the match-up at all. Not hsi fault, he is just blindly listening to Tastosis and their commentary mindlessly | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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Seraphone
United Kingdom1219 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:30 Mr Showtime wrote: No. You clearly don't know the match-up at all. *edit* Okay, I don't need to sound like a complete ass. If you actually don't understand ZvZ fully, a fundamental understanding is that when early pools are dropped by both players, the later one has the advantage. In a 6pool vs. a 7pool, the 7pool has the advantage. Not much, but it's there. In the case of the 6pool vs. a 10pool, the 10pool is pretty much the hard counter a 6pool. I'd say a 12pool is probably the latest you could get an "early-pool" It doesn't matter. You can still win even if his pool is better timed that yours. Watch Nestea vs SlayersCoca from a few GSL's ago. Nestea goes 10 pool and Coca goes 14 pool. This is a build order disadvantage for Nestea and his early lings do zero damage. So he just drones up and wins the game anyway. The only combination of pools/hatch where you insta lose is 6 pool vs hatch first. Everything else in transitionable. On January 14 2012 03:33 ArtThouAngry wrote: Not hsi fault, he is just blindly listening to Tastosis and their commentary mindlessly Go watch the Dual Sight game again. Idra completely mis micros his banelings and kills the absolute minimum lings/drones. He could absolutely have won that game. He wasn't even that far behind on drones when he went into Nestea's base (only 2-3), because Nestea knew he was going all in Nestea built nothing but units, Idra could have easilly just not made the banes and droned and been okay. On January 14 2012 03:37 ThePlayer33 wrote: quite funny posts here. someone said 10pool doesn't blind counter a 15 hatch. i rofl'd. On most GSL maps you do not insta lose to a 10 pool if you went hatch first, especially if you didn't build two drones and/or gas after the hatch. You will take some damage sure but so has he by going an early pool. Plus no one (except July) 10 pools then keeps making lings, you 10 pool get 6/8 lings and go back to drones. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:14 Seraphone wrote: If it's was all about coinflips Nestea wouldn't have a 90% win rate. Read the definition I used. Saying a matchup is coinflippy doesn't mean that it's literally a 50-50 chance for either player to win. It doesn't mean that, if I played Leenock, I'd win half the time. That's a ridiculous and reductionist interpretation. | ||
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Seraphone
United Kingdom1219 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Read the definition I used. Saying a matchup is coinflippy doesn't mean that it's literally a 50-50 chance for either player to win. It doesn't mean that, if I played Leenock, I'd win half the time. That's a ridiculous and reductionist interpretation. There is no way anyone could have a 90% win rate if luck played any significant role in the match up. His win rate is better than anyone elses win rate in any match up. Especially as it's not some random Zerg with a 90% win rate (thereby meaning he's just really lucky) it's the best Zerg in the world. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
Nestea's ZvZ record is bolstered by a period of about six months when he was the best player in the world by a huge, huge margin. It's easy to forget how dominant he was, but he went 20-0 over 3 GSLs, and didn't drop a game in one. The only player he's ever lost to in the GSL playoffs is Mvp. He was the best Zerg in the world by a freakish distance, and he lost his first ZvZ to a 10-pool spine all-in. He then lost his second when he lost a queen. That was the thing that separated him from Dimaga in that game. One queen. That was the difference between the only player ever to have gone through a GSL season without dropping a game and a pretty decent foreigner. Again, I'm not saying skill plays no role in ZvZ. That's a strawman argument, and it's one that I'm sick of addressing. Clearly it does, or Nestea wouldn't have a 90% winrate. What I'm saying is that player skill can easily be obscured by the vagrancies of the matchup, because so much of ZvZ is 'boy, I hope this works,' in exactly the same way that DT rushes are considered coinflippy, or BitByBitPrime-ing is coinflippy, or Supernova's cloaked Banshee rushes are coinflippy. | ||
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
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EsMuyVien
United States408 Posts
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Mafs
Canada458 Posts
On January 14 2012 08:20 EsMuyVien wrote: Obviously, players can still win after drawing the short straw of the build orders. However, not only did IdrA choose build orders that were hard countered by Nestea, he was also playing Nestea, the damn god of Zerg. How dare you use Nestea's name in vane! But no, Idra didn't choose intentional build orders that were hard countered. I think Idra played ZvZ how he thought would be best. But Nestea is flexible and meta gamed him. Lots of ZvZ is like that. Nestea also loves roachs, and hates baneling openings from his games. Other than that its all normal. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:52 Olsson wrote: Why would NesTea make a 12 pool anyways, im zerg Masters and I have no idea what his plan was with doing that? You didn't need to premise your post with im a masters player LOL. Anyways, Nestea put down a 12 pool because he took his time machine and went into the future and saw the series play out. Nestea's original plan was to 15 hatch but he saw Idra Bane all in and knew he had to 12 pool if he wanted to win that game. Thus, Nestea went back in time, played the series and won. True Story. | ||
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integrity
United States1014 Posts
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EsMuyVien
United States408 Posts
On January 14 2012 08:36 Mafs wrote: How dare you use Nestea's name in vane! But no, Idra didn't choose intentional build orders that were hard countered. I think Idra played ZvZ how he thought would be best. But Nestea is flexible and meta gamed him. Lots of ZvZ is like that. Nestea also loves roachs, and hates baneling openings from his games. Other than that its all normal. Well... Obviously he didn't choose to be at a disadvantage... I meant that he chose build orders (which happened to be countered by the order Nestea made). Not that he chose B.O.s that were bad to choose. But yea I agree, Nestea did metagame him well. | ||
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c0ldwinter
United States238 Posts
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