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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On January 13 2012 13:12 ILoveAustralia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 12:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 IMMABEASTBRUH wrote:
IdrA really showed some crap games in his code S showing; hopefully better in code A... regardless of competition He played 2 sets of ZvZ..... that happens. I really wish he had a shot at MVP because there was a decent chance that he could have won, or at least proven that he is a player of that caliber. ZvZ is just stupid sometimes. Yes, he lost, but he match-up is so much more fragile than the other 2, and it is much easier to lose in a bad looking fashion. Somehow Koreans are always winning em against foreiengers .. they must be so lucky and stupid ey?
Are you really denying that it's a silly, coin-flippy matchup? There are BO loses. This isn't TvT or ZvT, where there's an extremely developed metagame with a natural progression. You can win by doing crazy shit; look at Stephano, who won an IPL playing a different style and 4-0'd a Korean. People still don't know what all the timings are because Zerg is, paradoxically, both reactive AND weak to cheeses. Sometimes that means that you win games you were really behind in, like Lucky did in game 2 against Idra. Sometimes that means you get absolutely crushed when you thought you were doing great. Nestea, DongRaeGu, Leenock and Losira have all lost ZvZ series in fairly silly ways. It's not just foreign players.
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Coinflippy?
NesTea must be playing with a loaded coin with a ~90% win rate in zvz....(the highest win rate anyone has in any match up).
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Also for about the middle six months of the year he was the undisputed best player in the world, and he's fallen back to earth recently. I'm not saying that ZvZ is 50/50 statistically; I'm saying that it's more unpredictable than it ought to be. That's a trait that all of SC2 has to some extent, and the design and philosophy behind Zerg exacerbates it. One day, it won't be because players will have found the middle place between 10-pool baneling all-ins and 15-hatch macro openings. I think Nestea is onto something with the 12-pool stuff he's been doing.
I don't know if you're watching Coaching Corner, but iNcontroL just defined 'coinflippy' in a pretty good way. It's a situation where, to loosely plagarize what he said, sometimes the brains and skill of the player get obscured by the vagrancies of the matchup. You go into a game saying 'I'm going to do this and hope it wins.' That's in contrast to something like ZvT, where the Z player says "I'm going to do this and it'll work because X Y Z" and the T player says "I'm going to do this and it'll work because A B C." InCa's games in his GSL run were a perfect example of coinflippy play. His entire plan was: 'Build DTs, hope for no detection.' It worked awesomely well for a while, and then someone built detection so he was 4-0'd. Contrast that to MVP's awesome bunker play into 3-CC on Entombed Valley.
Edit: Another thing about ZvZ that contributes to its issues is that you can't really overcome your mistakes. That's true of any mirror match but moreso ZvZ, especially in the early game with banelings and to a lesser extent in an Infestor v Muta game. The NesTea/Idra match from the MLG Global Invitational is a great example. Roaches clump up one time, and the game is over.
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hope idra finds good practice partners especially zvz and zvp.
as for tvt he should be covered, but
im really wondering though does he get to practice with boxer the genius strategist (he can learn a lot from him) and mma/ganzi/ryung? or does he just live in the slayers house and occasionally practice with others than the ones I mentionned.
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On January 13 2012 13:12 ILoveAustralia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 12:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 IMMABEASTBRUH wrote:
IdrA really showed some crap games in his code S showing; hopefully better in code A... regardless of competition He played 2 sets of ZvZ..... that happens. I really wish he had a shot at MVP because there was a decent chance that he could have won, or at least proven that he is a player of that caliber. ZvZ is just stupid sometimes. Yes, he lost, but he match-up is so much more fragile than the other 2, and it is much easier to lose in a bad looking fashion. Somehow Koreans are always winning em against foreiengers .. they must be so lucky and stupid ey?
Not at all what I said. If you got that out of what I wrote, I'd suggest that you reeducate. But this time, try paying attention rather than spending every minute readying yourself for the beat off session you had in the bathroom between classes.
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On January 13 2012 15:26 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 13:12 ILoveAustralia wrote:On January 13 2012 12:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 IMMABEASTBRUH wrote:
IdrA really showed some crap games in his code S showing; hopefully better in code A... regardless of competition He played 2 sets of ZvZ..... that happens. I really wish he had a shot at MVP because there was a decent chance that he could have won, or at least proven that he is a player of that caliber. ZvZ is just stupid sometimes. Yes, he lost, but he match-up is so much more fragile than the other 2, and it is much easier to lose in a bad looking fashion. Somehow Koreans are always winning em against foreiengers .. they must be so lucky and stupid ey? Not at all what I said. If you got that out of what I wrote, I'd suggest that you reeducate. But this time, try paying attention rather than spending every minute readying yourself for the beat off session you had in the bathroom between classes.
people actually do that? thank god I rarely went in those school bathrooms.
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My main issue with ZvZ is that, unlike ZvP or ZvT, when you scout a push, you cant prepare. That shit will be inside your base in 5 seconds after you see it leave his base. NesTea plays an extremely safe or a strong control style. There is a lower chance of him losing a game compared to someone like IdrA who likes to cut tons of corners to powermacro to victory. Unlike in BW, where the game and its intricacies are so well understood that corners can be safely cut, SC2 just doesn't have that knowledge base yet. ZvZ will be volatile until zergs learn exactly how to react to any situation, and then it will be a series of who calculated the best reaction.
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This topic always seems to get ridiculous. I love it =p
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Glad to see that idra is now grinding out a ton of customs even though he got knocked out code S. Felt like he started customs too late (around 2-3 days before his code s match).
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On January 13 2012 18:05 89andy wrote:
Glad to see that idra is now grinding out a ton of customs even though he got knocked out code S. Felt like he started customs too late (around 2-3 days before his code s match).
He did Customs before, as well. Dunno how many he is doing now, but I don't recall him doing masses of them beforehand.
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On January 13 2012 15:14 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Edit: Another thing about ZvZ that contributes to its issues is that you can't really overcome your mistakes. That's true of any mirror match but moreso ZvZ, especially in the early game with banelings and to a lesser extent in an Infestor v Muta game. The NesTea/Idra match from the MLG Global Invitational is a great example. Roaches clump up one time, and the game is over.
Are you kidding me? You just counter-argumented yourself. Everyone was talking how IdrA was crushing Nestea, being considerably ahead. Yet Nestea managed to come back...
So... I guess you can make mistakes and come back in zvz?
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No, that actually means it's incredibly volatile. One player was way ahead and due to one mistake he got far behind. That's how ZvZ works and it proves the point perfectly.
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i never liked zvz it always seem pretty weird matchup i would always rather have seen pvp and tvt then zvz since i always felt zvz was kinda based on luck on another persons mistake, one mistake then the game could be over
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i love how three quarters of the people who post in here either dont know what they are talking about, doesn't know enough about the game, or haven't actually watched the games played.
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Hey, that's what fans do, right?
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On January 13 2012 19:01 Incze wrote:
No, that actually means it's incredibly volatile. One player was way ahead and due to one mistake he got far behind. That's how ZvZ works and it proves the point perfectly.
No it really doesn't. You're trying to make a point that contradicts itself. Yes, it is volatile, but that does mean it's possible to make a comeback.
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On January 13 2012 19:01 Incze wrote:
No, that actually means it's incredibly volatile. One player was way ahead and due to one mistake he got far behind. That's how ZvZ works and it proves the point perfectly.
I don't see what's wrong with that. Micro is skill, if you make bad engagements or control your units badly you don't deserve to win games, nothing wrong with that design.
Plus that's not unique to ZvZ at all.
If you attack in PvZ before you're all on three bases and don't win the game you're going to get rolled.
If you get caught unsieged in TvZ you're dead.
One mistake can cost you the game in nearly every matchup in this game, it's not a ZvZ thing.
On January 13 2012 15:32 Antimatterz wrote:
My main issue with ZvZ is that, unlike ZvP or ZvT, when you scout a push, you cant prepare. That shit will be inside your base in 5 seconds after you see it leave his base. NesTea plays an extremely safe or a strong control style. There is a lower chance of him losing a game compared to someone like IdrA who likes to cut tons of corners to powermacro to victory. Unlike in BW, where the game and its intricacies are so well understood that corners can be safely cut, SC2 just doesn't have that knowledge base yet. ZvZ will be volatile until zergs learn exactly how to react to any situation, and then it will be a series of who calculated the best reaction.
I think defenders advantage isn't so bad in ZvZ. It's much less volatile than PvP anyway and probably less the PvT as well. You're always going to have some element of a tightrope in a mirror match early game.
On January 13 2012 14:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 13:12 ILoveAustralia wrote:On January 13 2012 12:52 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 12 2012 19:18 IMMABEASTBRUH wrote:
IdrA really showed some crap games in his code S showing; hopefully better in code A... regardless of competition He played 2 sets of ZvZ..... that happens. I really wish he had a shot at MVP because there was a decent chance that he could have won, or at least proven that he is a player of that caliber. ZvZ is just stupid sometimes. Yes, he lost, but he match-up is so much more fragile than the other 2, and it is much easier to lose in a bad looking fashion. Somehow Koreans are always winning em against foreiengers .. they must be so lucky and stupid ey? Are you really denying that it's a silly, coin-flippy matchup? There are BO loses. This isn't TvT or ZvT, where there's an extremely developed metagame with a natural progression. You can win by doing crazy shit; look at Stephano, who won an IPL playing a different style and 4-0'd a Korean. People still don't know what all the timings are because Zerg is, paradoxically, both reactive AND weak to cheeses. Sometimes that means that you win games you were really behind in, like Lucky did in game 2 against Idra. Sometimes that means you get absolutely crushed when you thought you were doing great. Nestea, DongRaeGu, Leenock and Losira have all lost ZvZ series in fairly silly ways. It's not just foreign players.
If it's was all about coinflips Nestea wouldn't have a 90% win rate.
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So why all of a sudden has the number of people who come here to argue increased?
You know, not everyone actually comes to this thread for idiotic arguments about zvz.
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On January 13 2012 20:14 Seraphone wrote:
If it's was all about coinflips Nestea wouldn't have a 90% win rate.
That isn't really correct. It can be coinflippy in the start, while if you get past a certain point in the matchup it stops being coinflippy and starts being pure skill. For the early game you have the whole baneling war thing that is extremely volatile, while later on macro and decision making has a much larger effect. It's not purely coinflips, but coinflips are involved at certain stages of the matchup. Nothing in SC2 is that binary.
I wasn't really expecting IdrA to make it out of that group, but given more time in the SlayerS house I'm certain he'll be able to make a real dent in GSL. I'm sad he didn't beat Lucky though, seemed like he actually had a shot at that and it was a fairly even match.
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On January 13 2012 21:00 OrchidThief wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 20:14 Seraphone wrote:
If it's was all about coinflips Nestea wouldn't have a 90% win rate.
That isn't really correct. It can be coinflippy in the start, while if you get past a certain point in the matchup it stops being coinflippy and starts being pure skill. For the early game you have the whole baneling war thing that is extremely volatile, while later on macro and decision making has a much larger effect. It's not purely coinflips, but coinflips are involved at certain stages of the matchup. Nothing in SC2 is that binary.
A lot of people like to claim that it's all just build order losses early game which is just flat out not true.
The only real build order loss is 6 pool vs hatch first, but even that can be held on the right map if you go pool after hatch and don't build any extra drones. Losira held against I think Kyrix like this.
The other stuff like 10 pool vs hatch first, 10 pool vs 14 pool, 14 pool vs hatch first might set one side behind but none are a disadvantage you can't come back from. I've seen Nestea win several games from all these disadvantages.
Baneling micro is volatile sure but it's about skill and control. To use Nestea again I've never once seen him lose a game through Baneling wars, so clearly if you're skilled enough ZvZ it's not really that luck based.
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EPT
