The PiG Daily aims to bring back high-knowledge, analytical and educational content that not only teaches core concepts of the game but also updates players on the meta and styles and habits they can learn from. The aim of the show is to teach players how to understand and learn to improve at Starcraft, by highlighting details of the game that often go unmentioned. I want to elucidate the smaller and more complicated aspects of Starcraft and help players to understand how all the moving parts in a game of Starcraft interact. The aim is for regular viewers of the show to steadily learn the core concepts of the game so they have the critical understanding to react to meta and style shifts without trying to copy pro play.
Even though some of the broad concepts in my early episodes apply to all races, it's all explained through the lens of a zerg player. I'm currently learning Protoss and Terran so I can expand the show to fully encompass all races and you will start seeing more and more Protoss and Terran themed episodes every week.
I will be updating this thread by posting the latest VoD and show notes as a post, and also into the OP so the most recent show is always featured in the OP, and the others are archived below.
THIS WEEKS ICYFAR Challenge: "I aint no basic bitch!" - send in your best replays where you don't build any basic units lings/roaches, marines/marauders/reapers/hellions, zealots/stalkers/adepts. Send submissions to eonblu95@gmail.com as attachment AND only ICYFAR as title! Latest submission is 24 hours before the show airs on the tuesday (AM/EU) /wednesday (AU) daily.
Or for Asia/Pacific it's early on Monday-Friday at
05:00 - Beijing/Singapore time 07:00 Australian Eastern time (the next morning)
I'm always open to suggestions and criticism of the show, and will be actively seeking it from high-ranked Protoss and Terran players as I am still newer to those races. I have some things on my list to improve already both inside the content of the show and to do with the production. Also Doing more episodes like my one on understanding economy that look at the finer details rather than just analysing pro games.
Please shout out what you want to see more of in the show and any ways to overall make the show a better experience. Thanks in advance for taking the time to watch the show and give feedback!
Dude, your show is awsome. I can't really criticise it negatively because I'm really enjoying your content and also learning a lot. Keep up with the good work.
You know if you keep talking like Day9 people are going to think you being named PiG has something to do with Day9, which of course doesn't make any sense, since for some reason there's more than one pro SC2 player with the word "pig" in their name and it's a normal thing. I'm just saying that's what people are going to think
I like this latest video, especially what you said about LotV being different than WoL, where there was so much weird early 1 and 2 base cheese that was practically undefendable if you didn't blindly tech and Zerg scouting was terrible especially because Protoss built a wall with cannons in literally every game so what were you even supposed to do?? Well, it's better now
Ive seen your analisis even before this show, and your very good at talking, like those teachers that dont bore you to sleep, and tho I agree with most the things you have to say, I feel some things you say are not correct, maybe just me being a baddy lol.
Anyways, great effort for the community, it could probably fill the roll Day9s show had. The one thing I dislike is the name, the pig daily sounds almost as bad as the pig show lol. Good luck, ill be sure to try and tune in.
I am normaly not posting that much, but your dailys are great and helping me out quite a lot in masters league. My best friend made also a big jump from low to high diamond, after going through a lot of your videos. Keep it up!
On May 23 2016 12:16 MadJack wrote: Ive seen your analisis even before this show, and your very good at talking, like those teachers that dont bore you to sleep, and tho I agree with most the things you have to say, I feel some things you say are not correct, maybe just me being a baddy lol.
Anyways, great effort for the community, it could probably fill the roll Day9s show had. The one thing I dislike is the name, the pig daily sounds almost as bad as the pig show lol. Good luck, ill be sure to try and tune in.
haha I suck at naming things I know.
If you feel like I say something that's not correct, challenge me on it! Don't ever feel like your own skill level excludes you from the discussion. Debate and discussion is how we learn! SC is a complex game and we only really deepen our understanding when we have other opinions to clash with. Please, please do myself the favour of debating with me!
On May 23 2016 15:40 Cascade wrote: Ohh, cool! The void of Day9 finally being filled? I can see pig doing a good job at it, as he is always good at explaining concepts on stream.
I'll have a look once I get home from work tonight.
Thanks peeeeeeeg!
Will you do Newbie Tuesday and Funday Monday as well??? :D I'm already inspired to get back to laddering again!
I'll mix up the topics and plan on doing some fundamental and noob-friendly ones for sure. I do feel a bit uncomfortable just blatantly copying Day9's content though, and also would prefer to find my own flavour as much as possible. Also going to get some pros in to give some deep insight, or maybe even insight into their own point of view during a famous series (if they're willing - that one will be hard)
Thanks everyone for the support so far. I'm incredibly happy doing this show (though still very unsatisfied with its current state) so don't expect it to be going anywhere anytime soon.
Take some educational game between foreign pros. Get the two players on your show (together with the replay) and have them discuss the game. Why did you win/lose? Identify deciding moments. "If you have turned back instead of attacking here, you could've won." That kind of things. Would allow a very deep analysis of what is going on in pro games.
Then, and this is the twist, have them jump into the replay and replay the game with the corrected decision. Restart the replay just before a deciding decision is made, and do it differently. It'll be like a what-if scenario turned real. You can even try this at a few different point if you got the time. I think it can be great for analysis, great for spectators, and potentially educational for the pros as well.
Hi Pig : first, you deserve a whole fucking wagon, plus a locomotive, plus a trainstation of love for what you're trying to do. It's an awesome project, and I think that people trying to get better at the game are looking exactly for this kind of stuff. This kind of videos (from day9) were, back in WOL, what helped me get from plat to masters.
I listened to it while laddering so maybe I missed something, but your main point was that zergs tended to tech too hard and ended up with a strong tech on a shallow economy, right? I'm not sure however if you can defend the same thesis for terran. I feel like terran players, in the opposite, are still used to HOTS economy, going 3CC/mineral heavy, and macroing very hard.As a whole, in TvZ, I think you're better off trying to tech quickly to go for the strong harass options that help you limit zerg economy. And, in TvP, your bio and rax production only serves to support the liberator, since adept/immo wins vs bio... So I dunno, i've tried many different builds in TvP but i'm not sure going for 1reaper expo => 3 raxes is very good anymore. For exemple, take game 1 from Masa vs Neeb at DH : Neeb goes for drop disruptors, and Masa goes 1/1/1 after his expo, to get a viking. If he had gone for 3 raxes, he'd have taken so much damage against the disruptor drops. Also, terran is in a weird spot atm because some openings from HOTS don't really work any more. I mean going for 1reaper expo => reactored hellions is (I feel) much weaker now because you simply don't have the money to sustain the 200min per 30secs this requires, without delaying your additionnal production. And finally, in TvZ, I feel like terran has to tech pretty quickly to defend allins and early agression. You're not gonna survive a ravager allin without a tankivac, so...
I dunno, the subject is very interesting, and my opinon might be biased and ignorant because i still can't really figure out how to balance my economy, but as I said : great project, and very interesting topic.
I had a very busy weekend (almost qualified for IEM Shanghai!) so this episode wasn't as well prepared and is a little slow at a few points, but I think the message is very important and something we should encourage every player to do more and more
"Just because the best players in the world are playing a certain way doesn't mean you should" -
the latest episode "PiG Daily #7 - How to make your own build and learn the game naturally!"
Most of my show notes were handwritten and in shorthand so they wouldn't mean much to you guys, but here's the build-order, at least where I'm up to at the moment with it.
TvP Oracle into blink-disruptor
14 pylon 16 gate + probe scout 16 gas 17 gas 19 pylon @gate - core @core - SG + adept + moco 29 pylon at 3rd base (checking if ebay block) @SG oracle @400minerals nexus Robo + stalker twilight --> blink 2-3 more gates ~55 supply 3rd nexus Forge + 4 more gateways
On May 23 2016 16:53 Cascade wrote: Something that I would find awesome is this:
Take some educational game between foreign pros. Get the two players on your show (together with the replay) and have them discuss the game. Why did you win/lose? Identify deciding moments. "If you have turned back instead of attacking here, you could've won." That kind of things. Would allow a very deep analysis of what is going on in pro games.
Then, and this is the twist, have them jump into the replay and replay the game with the corrected decision. Restart the replay just before a deciding decision is made, and do it differently. It'll be like a what-if scenario turned real. You can even try this at a few different point if you got the time. I think it can be great for analysis, great for spectators, and potentially educational for the pros as well.
Well that idea is damn sick! I'll start planning how to make that work immediately.
On May 23 2016 17:08 JackONeill wrote: Hi Pig : first, you deserve a whole fucking wagon, plus a locomotive, plus a trainstation of love for what you're trying to do. It's an awesome project, and I think that people trying to get better at the game are looking exactly for this kind of stuff. This kind of videos (from day9) were, back in WOL, what helped me get from plat to masters.
I listened to it while laddering so maybe I missed something, but your main point was that zergs tended to tech too hard and ended up with a strong tech on a shallow economy, right? I'm not sure however if you can defend the same thesis for terran. I feel like terran players, in the opposite, are still used to HOTS economy, going 3CC/mineral heavy, and macroing very hard.As a whole, in TvZ, I think you're better off trying to tech quickly to go for the strong harass options that help you limit zerg economy. And, in TvP, your bio and rax production only serves to support the liberator, since adept/immo wins vs bio... So I dunno, i've tried many different builds in TvP but i'm not sure going for 1reaper expo => 3 raxes is very good anymore. For exemple, take game 1 from Masa vs Neeb at DH : Neeb goes for drop disruptors, and Masa goes 1/1/1 after his expo, to get a viking. If he had gone for 3 raxes, he'd have taken so much damage against the disruptor drops. Also, terran is in a weird spot atm because some openings from HOTS don't really work any more. I mean going for 1reaper expo => reactored hellions is (I feel) much weaker now because you simply don't have the money to sustain the 200min per 30secs this requires, without delaying your additionnal production. And finally, in TvZ, I feel like terran has to tech pretty quickly to defend allins and early agression. You're not gonna survive a ravager allin without a tankivac, so...
I dunno, the subject is very interesting, and my opinon might be biased and ignorant because i still can't really figure out how to balance my economy, but as I said : great project, and very interesting topic.
I tend to agree with all your points. I think terran doesn't have the same fast-moving and flexible roach-ling-queen-spore sort of earlygame as Zerg, and also tends to be the race that has more onus on them to get aggressive. Terran is less flexible and so often relies on aggression to keep their opponent in check rather than going greedy themselves. This episode was mostly aimed at zergs, though I think lower ranked Terrans will benefit from the same focus. Once you hit high diamond or masters+ as T you can do those 1-1-1 type openings and use them for both defence and harass really well, and still transition nicely. Though at lower levels players jumping into those sort of openings often aren't transitioning into economy at all behind it as well as not putting enough focus on those harass units. So I guess the idea has some merits for lower Terrans, but for higher ones I agree it's a different story.
The main thrust of that episode was pretty much changing people's (zergs for the most part) assumptions about what a macro build looks like in LOTV and encouraging them to delay their gas a lot more in macro play, or if they still want to tech fast realise they're cutting lots of economy and need to put on hard pressure with that tech, not just netflix and chill.
On May 23 2016 16:53 Cascade wrote: Something that I would find awesome is this:
Take some educational game between foreign pros. Get the two players on your show (together with the replay) and have them discuss the game. Why did you win/lose? Identify deciding moments. "If you have turned back instead of attacking here, you could've won." That kind of things. Would allow a very deep analysis of what is going on in pro games.
Then, and this is the twist, have them jump into the replay and replay the game with the corrected decision. Restart the replay just before a deciding decision is made, and do it differently. It'll be like a what-if scenario turned real. You can even try this at a few different point if you got the time. I think it can be great for analysis, great for spectators, and potentially educational for the pros as well.
Well that idea is damn sick! I'll start planning how to make that work immediately.
I realised I won't be able to have all the show notes archived in the OP - it'd just become too cumbersome so I will only have the most recent show notes up there and the others will be archived with their posts for their VoDs in this thread. Since the notes for #5 were quite long and might be useful I'll repost those here:
Notes for Episode #5 - Understanding Economy - mineral gas balance and why you're doing it wrong + Show Spoiler +
Replay of Snow Diamond Player macroing 5:30 and 8:00 - benchmark 46 drones, 8 lings, 1 hydra, 3 queens 1-1 ⅓ done. Hydra den upgrade almost finished 0 creep spread Vs 72 drones, 4 lings, 3 queen, 4th base started, all 6 gases mining. +1 15% done 7:45 21 hydra, 28 lings, 2 lurkers, 62 drones +2 range 35% done Vs 13 hydras, 5 lurkers, 71 lings
Replay of Snute macroing 5:30 and 8:00 benchmark
Look at when the gas is taken in both games Explain the builds/steps they’re taking Just walk through how they get to the benchmarks Obviously Snute makes less errors/mistakes, but in a passive game the difference really isn’t that huge. The big disparity that we find is due to the difference in structure - namely how the mineral/gas balance is prioritised in the earlygame
Here’s the issue:
Too much gas, too early Not enough minerals, not using that 3rd base! Initially faster tech/upgrades, but not using it effectively
So Why are people going for gas so much?
That’s how you used to play most of the time in WoL and HoTS: People haven’t adjusted to LoTV yet - they’re building the faster 3rds but not making good use of them
Fear of certain problems Phenix Liberators Fear of 1/100 losses - things like liberator range which players should only adapt to when it’s very popular in the meta - don’t change your whole build for super rare tactics! They want to rush out hydras or mutas to make the defence EASY. But they’re sacrificing way too much economy when simpler options are available: Spores/queens, ravagers, and only later get the FULL easy response unit, once you can afford it.
Is it ALWAYS bad to go gas and tech up so fast?
No, a completely valid way of playing Have to USE the tech immediately and LEVERAGE your investment Economy can transform into any area of the game,: Army, tech, upgrades FLEXIBLE, ADAPTIVE, REACTIVE Tech/upgrades can’t be used for anything except a very narrow specific use If you rush mutas - you need to go do damage with them If you rush roach speed and upgrades, you need to go do damage with them
Too many players are rushing tech and upgrades, but have no set plan of how to leverage them to get an advantage over their opponent. Not basing the rest of build/plan around the fast tech to make the damage happen Sitting on upgrades/tech until opponent catches up/has response ready
Ok, so you want us to be greedier and build more economy, but we still need to scout and react/adjust when we scout timing attacks coming right?
Not greedier! Just more focused on building our economy to what we want to achieve in the game! For macro: Just change the balance of minerals/gas BENEFIT: more mineral mining, more drones because less extractors, evos, later lair etc. You can absorb harassment much easier and it’s OK to take damage Many players I see get WAY behind when they take even a little damage with these tech builds With stronger minerals you can bounce back so much easier!
Example:
5:00 into the game:
Tech player has gone for a faster lair, evo chamber and up to 4 gases. He is at 45 drones.
Economy player has just 2-gases and started her lair and evo chamber later. She’s on 55 drones
A helion runby comes into the base and kills 8 drones.
The tech player is knocked down to 37 drones total.
The eco player is knocked down to 47 drones total
Obviously 47 drones can recover faster than 37 right?
Yes. But the difference is actually greater, especially if they were all mineral drones that died.
The eco player is mining from only 2 gases, he still has 41 drones mining minerals.
The tech player is mining from 4 gases, he has 25 drones mining minerals.
The difference is HUGE.
QUESTIONS! ASK NOW With the @x5_PiG tag and I’ll answer them at the end!
Ok so what should we do differently in simple terms?
If you’re doing a tech build:
Make sure you base your whole build around gaining an advantage with that tech. Maybe just a squad of mutas at a set timing then back to eco - but make sure you put a lot of focus into getting those mutas out fast and harassing your opponent
If you’re playing economy:
Have a set benchmark of drones before you add more than 2 gases Try saturating your 3rd base completely (16+ drones on minerals on all 3-bases) then going up to 6-gas all at once Make sure you delay Lair until after 4:00 in most games If you go single evo chamber, drop it at 4:30 earliest. 5:00 for double evo chamber Get used to defending PROBLEMS with a minimal change to your build. Rely on basic units - roaches, lings, ravagers, queens and spores are the answer to 99% of your problems in the first 7 minutes of the game! You can build more of all of these by default, even if you’re not sure pressure is coming because your mineral count will be so much higher - and still get a sick economy at the same time
I’m T or P, should I be adjusting too?
I mostly notice zergs making these errors, but some T and P do too
In general follow the same rules! With fast tech - always aim to get damage done with it! Make sure you put focus on leveraging that advantage! In macro - focus on delaying gas on your natural until it is nearly saturated, and do the same on your 3rd. Always search for the smallest change or refinement in your build to answer a problem, don’t look for the hard-counter or EASY defence option.
ANSWER QUESTIONS!
Outro!
Giveaway!
And here's my latest episode: PiG Daily #8 - Guru's Full Swarm ZvP - Guru vs Showtime!
"Everyone said this is a gamble, it's dumb, it's bad... I don't think it's helpful to throw out dismissive labels about a style, I think talking about how this actually worked is going to help our core understanding... whenever we lose to something that seems dumb, we clearly didn't have a good understanding of the situation if we lost to it"
"Perfect play might beat it, but perfect play is a Starcraft myth"
Weirdest game of DH Tours. Dismissed as a dumb strategy by most players, yet Guru came very close to beating the eventual champion. Mindless, gambley, dumb? Well let’s break it down and actually try and understand exactly how it works - not just dismiss it with elitist labels.
Load game - Lock on cam
Very DIFFERENT economic and tech-choices by guru Guru plays with very little gas SUPER high drone count
But: The night is full and dark of gambles, it’s a legitimate choice It’s a style that will probably never work vs perfect play but no-one has EVER played a perfect game of Starcraft The smallest mistakes can be punished suddenly and absolutely with this style Guru has room for error - he can mess up 5 fights in a row as long as he gets the 6th one right
So how does it work?
Mass hydra ling bane lurker Hyper-mobile The fastest damage output of any mid-game composition in the game Ridiculously powerful if it can surround the enemy force - could kill a toss army instantly All light units - no bonus damage for immortals Fast-moving front running lings and banes set off the immortal shields early so it wears off often before the rest of the battle even begins Incredibly high damage output, yet fragile units - can’t force their way into chokes, especially vs splash damage - but will always win a basetrade! Countered by storms and forcefields However these abilities are only good at defending from one direction If showtime comes out too far and gets flanked he might get crushed very suddenly
Cost-inefficient, but Guru’s economy is built around allowing that He doesn’t lose his hydras too often, and often has 20 dishing out damage from behind He goes up to 90 drones. Typically we see a 70-80 drone economy in ZvP. That’s using 8-gases though.
Maths 8x3gas = 24 gas drones. So 80-24 = 56 mineral drones Vs 5x3gas = 15 gas drones. So 90 - 15 = 75 mineral drones
Pretty big difference! And keep in mind often players only have 70 drones, so in that case it’s 75 drones vs 46.
Guru often sits at over 4kminerals harvested/minute. That’s 160 lings he can build EVERY MINUTE
Why was this so difficult for Showtime to play vs?
Different to what he’s used to playing against, makes him play differently, forces him to be on his toes: Outside the Meta: No practice vs this Forces him to play very different to his normal style Has to be super patient If his army is ever out of position it can be surrounded and crushed in an instant - Showtime needs to stare at his army and map much harder than vs a more regular army Has to be super careful with his workers - Guru can afford to trade vast amounts of units to kill workers and be ok with the trade -
Pinned Back Guru has so much damage output (pure hydra-ling, + banes to crash through walls Guru will win a basetrade easily and has so much money to spare he could build an endless spine forest Showtime can’t risk taking any trade unless it’s VERY good, because guru’s on his side of the map looking for the trades, even if showtime wins a fight, guru can reproduce so much easier. The risk of counters and basetrade, inferior economy and being surrounded by a hyper mobile army
Questions!
Summary: Overall Showtime play a very crisp mid-game, slaying so many zerg armies. But at a point he leaves a few too many opportunities for Guru to get damage and Guru’s whole style has allowed him to absorb those bad fights and bounce back, whereas Showtime’s damage is much harder to recover from.
What should showtime have done differently? Locked down his bases even more, walled off cannons, wall-ins where necessary, dt warpins, archons or whatever Scout more and not be in such a rush to get tempests since there were no broods on the way - it was great foresight and he should have been able to get them AND protect his economy, but it didn’t need to be so high on his priority list Potentially build a prism to put some counter-pressure on Maybe trade off immortals and go for a lot more archon-templar and start pushing through guru - the immortal chargelot was struggling
How does this style help me understand the game if I never use it? What if I’m Terran, how do I apply this knowledge?
This same situation can be seen across all matchups. At its core it’s just a high damage, high mobility, heavy-mineral army, facing off against a higher tech and “better” quality army that costs a lot more gas. The mobile army has more units that deal more consistent damage overall, but it lacks tankiness, splash damage, etc etc. So it could be the same sort of army for showtime vs mass bio, PURE MM like Maru used to do. Where the toss looks unstoppable in a front on fight, but if Maru finds the holes and strikes the economy he can knock them over very suddenly. Likewise a heavy chargelot/archon style pvt or pvz - it’s super mobile and hard hitting, but gets rekt by defensive mines, infestors, broods etc. But if it can find the openings with prisms etc it can tear the slower “higher quality” army apart.
Conceptual summary:
Mobility and high damage = you can afford to build a bigger economy because your army is better in the open, better in the basetrade The Higher-tech, higher quality army has to be patient and defend very well, locking down all the bases and waiting until it’s so high quality it can actually move out and fight in the middle of the map
The show is great to watch, and I love that you try to mention how the builds can be defended, or how stuff applies to other races. Last episode (Daily #8) was great to see that Guru's choice of not making more assimilators was not as dumb as the casters made it seem.
On May 24 2016 19:42 PiGStarcraft wrote: And here's my latest episode: PiG Daily #8 - Guru's Full Swarm ZvP - Guru vs Showtime!
Don't know how much BW you know, but this style existed in brood war as well. It was called "Sauron Zerg", and I think especially JulyZerg was famous for it. Likkypiddy. Idea is basically to mass silly amounts of (upgraded) low tech units on a huge economy. Happy to see it work in sc2 as well, if only as a surprise strategy, and definitely something I'd like to try.
PiG Daily #9 - Nerchio’s agile and adaptive anti-muta ZvZ - Nerchio vs Scarlett DH Tours
Note: I think the maths part of my brain may be broken. I somehow totalled 600 + 400 + 600 = 1800. I really need to start using a calculator lol. So when I say the Anti-Air should cost 1800 mins/72 lings/36 drones it actually should be 1600 minerals, 64 lings, 32 drones. The point still stands but damn I'm stupid lol
Apologies for this episode being quite rambling. I realise after watching the VoD I didn't have a keen enough understanding to explain everything in simple terms. More prep for the next one!
Complete understanding of the matchup Showed a way of dealing with mutas using an alternative to hydras/mutas where you get ling upgrades, queens and tech straight to Hive. We’ve seen it used before but usually in more static games where it feels the players skip the midgame. In this one Nerchio was always in an incredibly fast-paced and action packed situation and yet still balanced his play very intelligently
But also an understanding of how his opponent plays Played in ways we don’t normally see because he was taking risks and cutting corners. He was abusing the incomplete information of his opponent, and doing a splendid job of piecing together what he could get away with despite his own limited information
Upgraded lings These featured heavily in Nerchio’s play. They’re fantastic vs straight muta play, but very weak vs roach-baneling timing attacks where they can’t do crap He identified Scarlett wanted to go muta-ling-bane and countered it by rushing for upgrades and using his lings mobility rather than anti-air to nullify the mutas The mutas never could come harass because Nerchio always had more production (fast 3rd base) or better upgrades, sometimes even both. He used this to threaten and counterattack with lings constantly, forcing the mutas to stay at home, and doing critical damage when she moved out. This allowed Nerchio to skip early anti-air and get a later response off a larger economy as he skipped the huge deny in his economy that is extra queens and spores
Maths Standard AA setup on 3-base: 4 extra queens and 8 spores 600 minerals (queens) + 400 minerals/8larva (drones that turn into spores) + 600 minerals (spores) 1800 minerals and 8 larva. Most of which needs to be invested all at once at the same time as the opponent starts even just 5 mutalisks. 1800 minerals is the equivalent to 72 zerglings, or 36 drones.
Nerchio invests that money into ling aggression and purposefully limits and denies extra bases and any stability from Scarlett So why can’t scarlett just defend on the ground and then get her mutas across the map? She is teching very fast - if she got to mutas un-interrupted she could afford many banes, spines, lings to secure 3-base and send her mutas across the map. However Nerchio’s pressure is relentless and he forces many lings and banes out of her Since he is ONLY investing in economy (drones + 3rd hatch) and units whereas Scarlett is trying to invest in TECH + economy (lair, gas, 3rd base) she is forced to add more army to defend from nerchio, but she is spread thinner and can’t afford the trades as easily off her high-gas tech-focused economy. This makes it hard for Scarlett to ever get the 3rd and gives Nerchio a big production and economy lead
TEXT ON SCREEN:
Nerchio’s spending money on: ARMY + ECONOMY
Scarlett wants to spend money on ECONOMY + TECH
However Nerchio attacks constantly and forces Scarlett to spend money on army also
Scarlett’s money is now spread too thin, she can’t afford a lot of army and can’t secure a 3rd base.
Nerchio’s tech is slower but he has a 3rd base over Scarlett. Scarlett’s advantage is the mutas
The mutas are nullified by the mobile ling counters and aggression that force them to stay home - they never get a chance to force the BIG RESPONSE they normally do. She can’t do much about it because they aren’t as mobile as lings, and her lings can’t match nerchio’s, she’s just too far behind in production, upgrades or both.
Questions! ASK NOW with @x5_PiG
G2
Run-through
Analysis
Going straight for ling upgrades Queen-ling… aggression!?
Summary:
Mutas are indeed powerful, but Nerchio showed that it also matters HOW you get to mutalisks. Scarlett was teching super fast, but skipping out on army, Nerchio abused this weakness and denied her using a 3rd base in many games If Scarlett was going for slower, 3-base mutas, off a more solid economy + army. Nerchio might have been forced to tech to hive faster and do less runbys.
On May 24 2016 23:06 Barrin wrote: I really appreciate your highly analytical style; I find a high concentration of useful information / perspectives.
You're doing great, but you mentioned you could do better. Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. Don't burn out or run out of topics too fast!
Cutting back streaming hours to make sure I keep up with episode prep. Great topic for #9 - not the best execution by myself. Will definitely make sure I give myself plenty of time to prep for all the future eps
PiG, I love your dailies. When you get the opportunity to cast you're one of my favorites, props to being the only english language caster that had played BW at Shanghai btw :p, and keep on keeping on. Like I said during your stream, copying Day9 is not the worst idea anyone has ever had and you are very good at it. Keep it up! I'll watch every episode.
Hotkeys - Hotkey Trainer Arcade map Control Groups 1 hatch/cc/nexi 2-4 Army 5 barracks/gateways (creep queen hotkey for zerg) 6 - factories/starports or Robo/SG (tab between them) 7 - upgrade buildings 8 - special building/secondary upgrades
Adding eggs to your hotkey Remove select all army key to get used to it We should always be trying to rely on our own hotkeys rather than select all army because select all army inhibits our ability to split up and counterattack, flank etc.
Ctrl Click and double click Ctrl click is a bit more reliable especially on moving units
Shift click de-selecting cloning/scouts/back on gas Shift Queing up actions Insane multi-tasking often involves a lot of this - it looks to the observer like they’re everywhere - and sometimes they are but most of the time its nicely timed que’d up actions to hit at the same time as where they’re actively microing. Camera Hotkeys 5-8 bases + rally pt For Protoss rally pt = warpin pt
Advanced:
Rapid-fire Great for corrosive bile, infested terran spam, warping in 5+ gateway units at a time Control-group Stealing Should be on by default
Macro
Macro is the art of constantly expanding your economy and building it stronger whilst also Teching, upgrading and spending your money on army. The key rules are:
Constantly build workers Keep your money low Spend the money as soon as it comes in so it can be used. For instance if you invest in more workers, the earlier you get them the more time they get to mine! Never get supply blocked SOOO much better to have a big supply gap then to get blocked! Grinds your whole production to a halt Better to lose opportunity cost then freeze everything up
Macro Cycle You can do small tasks in between, pros constantly bounce between things. However the important part is having one strong, rhythmical cycle:
Zerg Every 30s Inject Produce Overlords - last few larva on overlords every time - this steadily ramps up so you build 1 overlord/cycle for each base you have
The reason behind always macroing in a set order is that in Starcraft you always have a large number of actions to sustain macro. If you are doing everything in a random order you are guaranteed to have to constantly waste brain power thinking “what do I need to do now?”. So by memorising this order and carrying out your macro like this EVERY game you begin to do it by instinct without needing to think and therefore always covering all your bases. Not only that but the speed you macro at will increase noticeably.
So the goal here is that with every 30s macro cycle (the time it takes for injects to pop) you can go through this order automatically and speedily finish it in 10-15s. This leaves 25-30s for scouting, micro, building tech, and thinking about strategy.
Terran -22s 2xScvs/CC + drop mules Que units on production Que depots From 40 supply (therabouts) you should always have 1 depot builder. That is, an scv constantly building depots. You should always que up another depot each time you return to base Once you hit full 2-base production (roughly 5-rax + fact/starport) you need to add a second depot builder. This way even if you are busy microing for a minute depots continue to be built. It also means you don’t need to keep pulling a worker off mining each time to go build depots, it becomes an easier and more habitual action
Protoss -22s 2xProbes/Nexus Que units on production Build pylons (1+/mining base)
My base is red on workers, should I stop building them?
Just rally that building to the next base, never stop building workers Even if it’s red it’s ok. 18 workers per base is just as efficient as 16 workers. Anything up to 20 on each bases minerals is completely fine. Anything under 16 is very bad!
When to transfer workers? 8:00 - transfer from main leaving 8 workers behind 11:00 - transfer from natural leaving 8 workers behind We rarely get past the next marker, and always with different 3rd timings based on build so it’s not as set in stone. Do this at the same time every game so it becomes habit! Especially in the middle and lower leagues I see players being very inconsistent with this. Even GMs often forget in high pressure games because it’s not a consistent habit.
What about when to add tech, production and upgrades? As a beginner it’s not too important exactly when, as long as you’re building your economy up and spending your money As you progress you can start to emulate patterns you see in pro play and learn efficient ways to head towards certain goals.
Micro
Attack-move!
Boxing micro Try to do it with just 2 box + click actions to get used to doing an apm efficient version you can realistically have time to execute in a game Spreading vs splash damage Setting up a concave More surface area banana/moon Doesn’t have to be perfect, just have them spread in the general shape and they’ll do the rest
Using Spellcasters
Get used to using 2 army control groups To get started you can try always just move commanding (right click) your spellcasters on someone in your main army so they automatically follow But they ALWAYS need their own hotkey Often you only need to a-move, or spread and a-move your main army Newer players more often make their army less effective by trying to micro too much Spellcasters on the other hand need a lot more attention!
So a fight done well will often look like this:
Box click, box click to spread army A-move Control spellcasters
Example showing how to use infestors/vipers SLOW AT FIRST
Questions @x5_PiG also last Abathur code giveaway today!
Mineral walking workers Useful for rush defence
Surrounding enemy workers Pocket trick Running away from harm (no pathing blocks so you can escape easier) Attacking? I used to copy this build in WoL off a 14/14 opening and had an insane winrate with it lol. I even used it in late 2012 several times off pool-hatch with a fake 3rd hatch cancel - worked a lot before the mothership core
Trick and small things
Shift + hold position queens on ramps Queuing up attack commands with shift on an scv so your units pursue and resume attacking it after it shifts around the building Hold position drones to block melee attackers
Summary: We just talked about a LOT of different things.
If you’re using this video to improve, choose 1-2 things. Practice them a bit and try to make them feel very natural before you try more things. Don’t try to learn everything at once! All of the notes will be posted in the TL thread.
Don’t be afraid to hop into a custom map to practice and learn new mechanics. If something’s brand new it’s best to practice it vs an easy AI, or even no opponent so you can focus on it in isolation.
Hey PiG, just wanted express my gratitude for filling the void that was left when Day[9] stopped doing dailies. Watching these has helped fuel my desire to try laddering again. As an idea for a later daily, I'd like to learn some tips about how to build a better base. Building placement for the various races isn't talked about in depth very often, but when done effectively, players can use techniques to efficiently defend against harassment, hide tech, and minimize vulnerabilities without compromising their builds.
PiG Daily #11 - The hidden advantages of aggression - Has vs Happy WCS Spring Championship -- Part 1
"Right now we have Happy playing Trump-style, he's very scared of these mexistalkers..." - couldn't find a really poignant quote for this one, so I guess that'll do
I had some mic issues so this episode is cut into 2 parts:
Has vs Happy frozen temple Aggression sees Happy’s crazily safe tech-rush build Keeps up the pressure despite the start going horribly (losing mocore) Goes FULL economy behind it In this case it’s an exaggerated example of what we’ve been talking about. Obviously Happy’s paranoid because it’s Has, but we see this same sort of over-defensiveness from the defender, and greed behind the aggression all the time!
Intro
Before looking at the less obvious features of aggression, let’s talk about the basics. At its core Starcraft is an economy game, and that’s the main thing we always look at. If someone is aggressive, it means they invest less in economy, and more in army in order to try and damage or kill their opponent. Therefore if they don’t do a certain amount of damage, they’re behind, and the attack has failed.
This is definitely the MAIN part of understanding aggression. However we rarely go deeper. Lots of situations where players first attack or 2 doesn’t achieve anything, and they go on to win with their transitions.
I remember last years wcs when I 9-pooled Targa 3 times in a ZvZ each time vs 15pool. He always had textbook defence, and yet I won the series 2-1 with macro transitions that ended in very even games. On a regular basis we see Has’s aggression defended only to break through on the 2nd or 3rd tech-switch.
So how when an attack doesn’t work, does the player who is so clearly behind in economy leverage himself back into the game? To understand this we need to look at the hidden advantages of aggression. The best way to do this is to look at games where the initial attack doesn’t achieve its goal - but the player still finds that way to win!
The first step to benefiting from these hidden advantages is not overcommitting Learning to recognise when the attack isn’t going well and changing up the style of attack/pressure, not just funneling units up a ramp to their death Sure you’ve attacked and didn’t do damage, so you’re behind in economy. But if you preserve a lot of your units then you can still scout and The threat is still there! They’re afraid to move out incase you’re still reinforcing
Scouting info - force them to show their unit composition Infer from that what their build is Usually can figure out everything that’s happening if the pressure is great enough Pressure them so much they don’t have time to scout and are afraid of walking out into a huge allin Leads to several consequences:
Don’t have time to think about scouting/transition Are unsure if you’re still going all-in or committing to economy This means you can often cut corners behind the aggression and beeline directly to a tech and economy that you can’t defend - but they don’t realise they can push. Usually by the time they do push the corner cutting/greedy transition has paid off
Force them into a certain reaction whilst you’re already going into the best counter to that reaction
Space We touched on the idea of opening up space and having vision It’s also you’re completely safe due to gearing up for your own attack - you can be surprised by attacks and you will defend cos you already have so many units
Questions to @x5_PiG
Strength and Weakness:
Usually the defender fails to weigh up and fully understand what the aggressor is capable of However if they do they can almost always find a sharp counter-timing to stop you from cutting corners and getting ahead Example: STOP AT JUST 2 TANKS and get faster stim Especially if it’s a brand new type of aggression it’s incredibly hard to do the mental calculations on what could be coming behind it - that’s why only the very best of the best pro players feel impervious to aggressive and cheesy play
We talked about how players tend to mis-read aggression unless they are the very best or have experience dealing with it. But even if they have a good grasp of the situation and what’s possible, The aggressor is usually still more familiar with the situation. He chose to do this build and force the game down this path, he’s practiced it many many times and has learnt devious and clever things to do from here. (spreading creep back, recognise when to rush mutas, Has going phenix after oracle to keep the pressure up and force the T to stay at home
I really liked the one with the mechanics! I have to start using steal hotkey more. Think I do all the other things though... bad at splitting of course, but I try.
Still stuck in gold, but I probably just have to play more.
Episode #11 explains why my favorite style doesn't suck. Check out this OP I wrote over 5 years ago (Nov 2010): Safe Drone Pumping
Obviously much is outdated, but here's some quotes from the OP:
The idea is to pump out a bigger army (speedlings) than your opponent BEFORE spamming drones. Aside from the obvious con of not having quite as much of an economy right away, I feel that everything else about it is a pro (o.O). 1. You have control of the map early game. Your opponent simply cannot walk out of his base early on without serious disappointment. Anyone who tries a premature tier1 attack just gets owned (zealots do ok, but are still pushed back) I honestly can't find any protoss or terran who dare tries to FE when they know what I'm doing.
...
3. ... a lot of the current macro zergs will be like "oh shit they're pushing out, if I don't make an army NOW I am dead." Don't get me wrong, you should still do the same thing using this concept, but instead of making an army from almost nothing, you are reinforcing the army that you already have.
I guess I never explicitly mentioned that Zerg pretty much has the easiest time expanding rapidly too, but perhaps they also become more vulnerable the quickest if they take this route.
Thanks for the justification :>
---
Here's a few more attacker's advantages I've identified:
- Feint/Bluff. Against Zerg, move out onto the map and pretend to start an attack causing any slightly greedy Zerg to make more units instead of drones that might have been better because you don't actually engage.
- Denying/Containing. Can help prevent scouting true, but if it's strong enough if it can also contain their army (even if it's mobile) and prevent it from moving out on the map. Also if strong enough, helps you deny expansions before they are secured (which isn't instant). ((The contain the Protoss had on the Terran there wasn't really this strong, the Terran was just overly timid)).
- Army proximity to tech/production/economy. Your army is closer to the potentially vulnerable, potentially more valuable things he has than his army is to yours. Partners with the following:
- Defender must defend ALL weaknesses while the attacker only needs to find ONE. This becomes more significant as more expansions are taken.
As I see the failed all-in, is that if you manage to deny scout, you get a second chance through the "guess what I'm doing" mini-game. You can either gear up for round 2 of your all-in, or you can macro up super greedy. If your opponent prepares for the wrong one, you are in the game again, potentially even with an advantage.
In the episode, it seems like the terran prepared for round 2, while the toss was macroing up. Equally, had the toss prepared a second round, and the terran had started moving out to put on pressure, toss could have run it over.
With scans though, I don't see why terran would have to play that guessing game... Why didn't he just scan, identify that toss is being greedy, and go kill him?
On May 28 2016 14:08 Cascade wrote: As I see the failed all-in, is that if you manage to deny scout, you get a second chance through the "guess what I'm doing" mini-game. You can either gear up for round 2 of your all-in, or you can macro up super greedy. If your opponent prepares for the wrong one, you are in the game again, potentially even with an advantage.
In the episode, it seems like the terran prepared for round 2, while the toss was macroing up. Equally, had the toss prepared a second round, and the terran had started moving out to put on pressure, toss could have run it over.
With scans though, I don't see why terran would have to play that guessing game... Why didn't he just scan, identify that toss is being greedy, and go kill him?
I think one can answer this answer this question in many different layers. One way to look at it is that every situation, every set-up to a game seems to suggest a course of action that will lead to victory for either player. We, the spectator saw the situation, and could identify a course of action, which no doubt would have been a good one for the Terran. Happy. on the other hand, has to consider a multitude of scenarios. Given that a scan is also a decision that forgoes economic benefit, imagine the situation that Happy does make a scan, or several scans. There are many questions that can be raised as to where to scan, how many scans to use to come to the conclusion of Has' greed, etc.. But my point is, that there is a large range of situations that Happy could discover where his chance of winning is a lot slimmer as a result of investing those scans. Facing that decision making problem, he decided to do what he did.
On May 28 2016 14:08 Cascade wrote: As I see the failed all-in, is that if you manage to deny scout, you get a second chance through the "guess what I'm doing" mini-game. You can either gear up for round 2 of your all-in, or you can macro up super greedy. If your opponent prepares for the wrong one, you are in the game again, potentially even with an advantage.
In the episode, it seems like the terran prepared for round 2, while the toss was macroing up. Equally, had the toss prepared a second round, and the terran had started moving out to put on pressure, toss could have run it over.
With scans though, I don't see why terran would have to play that guessing game... Why didn't he just scan, identify that toss is being greedy, and go kill him?
I think one can answer this answer this question in many different layers. One way to look at it is that every situation, every set-up to a game seems to suggest a course of action that will lead to victory for either player. We, the spectator saw the situation, and could identify a course of action, which no doubt would have been a good one for the Terran. Happy. on the other hand, has to consider a multitude of scenarios. Given that a scan is also a decision that forgoes economic benefit, imagine the situation that Happy does make a scan, or several scans. There are many questions that can be raised as to where to scan, how many scans to use to come to the conclusion of Has' greed, etc.. But my point is, that there is a large range of situations that Happy could discover where his chance of winning is a lot slimmer as a result of investing those scans. Facing that decision making problem, he decided to do what he did.
Yeah, that's true. There are a lot of possibilities. But still, Has mainly had the two options of doing all-in round 2, or macro up. I think Happy was aware of that. There must be a good timing to for example scan the natural and check saturation to tell the two apart, and act accordingly. Surely that must be worth a scan? But yeah, maybe I am oversimplifying things here.
I think Happy assumed Has would throw the kitchen sink at him. God knows how many times I've lost games after taking my foot off the pedal after defending an all-in, only to lose to the next attack. He probably glanced up at his mins after Has's attack and saw something low, so he dropped a bunch of mules.
On May 28 2016 14:08 Cascade wrote: As I see the failed all-in, is that if you manage to deny scout, you get a second chance through the "guess what I'm doing" mini-game. You can either gear up for round 2 of your all-in, or you can macro up super greedy. If your opponent prepares for the wrong one, you are in the game again, potentially even with an advantage.
In the episode, it seems like the terran prepared for round 2, while the toss was macroing up. Equally, had the toss prepared a second round, and the terran had started moving out to put on pressure, toss could have run it over.
With scans though, I don't see why terran would have to play that guessing game... Why didn't he just scan, identify that toss is being greedy, and go kill him?
I think one can answer this answer this question in many different layers. One way to look at it is that every situation, every set-up to a game seems to suggest a course of action that will lead to victory for either player. We, the spectator saw the situation, and could identify a course of action, which no doubt would have been a good one for the Terran. Happy. on the other hand, has to consider a multitude of scenarios. Given that a scan is also a decision that forgoes economic benefit, imagine the situation that Happy does make a scan, or several scans. There are many questions that can be raised as to where to scan, how many scans to use to come to the conclusion of Has' greed, etc.. But my point is, that there is a large range of situations that Happy could discover where his chance of winning is a lot slimmer as a result of investing those scans. Facing that decision making problem, he decided to do what he did.
Yeah, that's true. There are a lot of possibilities. But still, Has mainly had the two options of doing all-in round 2, or macro up. I think Happy was aware of that. There must be a good timing to for example scan the natural and check saturation to tell the two apart, and act accordingly. Surely that must be worth a scan? But yeah, maybe I am oversimplifying things here.
It was not my intention to defend Happy's decisions, I'm just saying that it's a bit more complicated than being able to draw a conclusion from a single scan. For one, a no gas natural has traditionally been a sure sign of all-in. But Has did a mineral heavy greedy build. Scouting the fourth or the third would have been more indicative of greed. But either way, you have very little information on the degree of tech associated with Has' transition. Is it a 4 gas safe 3-base? Is it 2 gas 3-base? Happy sure as hell didn't expect 2 gas 4-base.
There is some knowledge asymmetries in this situation as Has is likely to have a greater understanding of the circumstances around this specific scenario, compared to Happy. In that sense, it is expected that Happy will make less ideal decisions, compared to those of Has.
Happy actually did drop 2 scans on the natural - and considering the first saw it down and the second saw some decent number of probes on it (but no gas) Happy definitely could have stopped at just 3 tanks rather than a whole 5. That adjustment would have really helped him out imo. But it is still relatively limited information - he never knew about the 3rd and 4th nexus, he didn't get any info on the tech or production - so I can see why Happy overcommited so much to defence so early on.
I love that you defend the power of aggression. As a diamond terran it's really important not to let people talk me out of attacking constantly whenever there's opportunity to.
Putting on pressure to force mistakes Give ourselves room for error - Force reactions whilst already teching in something to take advantage of that reaction
G1 -
Trying to play straight up and being outskilled Poor execution Just lots of little things At this level its slight supply blocks Larva unspent Super late bane nest - biggest problem. Realisation that we’re far out-matched and not going to be able to win straight-up games
G2 -
Finding a way under their skin The more unique and strange the type of aggression the harder it is for them to read and the more likely their response will be very straightforward Doesn’t expect the roach swap whereas if we go 2-base muta and hit later, the chance we throw him off balance and force those mistakes is limited.
Questions - @x5_PiG
G3 -
Looking for a different way underneath our opponents skin Continue to keep them off balance - however in this case their’s decent unit production and the roaches don’t get all that much done. Nonetheless this has occupied and delayed Iaguz. Letting the drops in to scout + do damage twice is where we lose the game The surprise mutas aren’t a surprise anymore We could have followed up with yet another roach attack but decide to try and play defensively since we took so much damage - there’s a good amount of flexibility in the styles because each wave is not all-in. Our opponents know this and so are constantly worried of us teching/macroing out of control also.
Answer questions
On May 31 2016 14:06 Pillowpants117 wrote: I love that you defend the power of aggression. As a diamond terran it's really important not to let people talk me out of attacking constantly whenever there's opportunity to.
It's important to think about all aspects of the game! This latest episode is in the same vein, but tomorrow we'll be talking about defending cheese and hopefully mixing in some more episodes on strong macro play soon
It is very informative, entertaining and interesting. Also, I love the idea of making a regular daily event from it. People love this kind of series. I hope, when the responsible people see these videos, they will start to invite him again into various tournaments as the "expert", because I always loved his expertise, which he brought into casting. Also I am sure, people will be much more interested in his coaching, when they see, how excellent he is. And the number of people watching it live and in VODs can also bring some cash :-)
Viewer-submitted replays Variety of skill levels - gold through to GM
Defending cheese Also look at defending all sorts of big aggressive attacks We’re going to go through replay by replay and talk about what we can do differently, and the reasoning of how we got to that point
Learning from the games You can’t always understand how to deal with something the first time - but you take a shot at it, and then afterwards watch the replay to understand what small changes you could make to hold it.
What can I change? Here’s a list we can always follow:
Learn to recognise it Telltale signs drone/probe disappearing whilst scouting - check for cannons/proxy hatches Worker entering your base from a weird angle, or at an odd timing Build units earlier Often we panic/are distracted and don’t start units as soon as we can Sounds obvious but is often forgotten. Even 3-4s faster basic fightersmakes a big difference Cut workers earlier Ensure we’re cutting workers the INSTANT we have the scouting tell Often we’re just not paying attention and don’t notice the units coming across the minimap until 10-15s late
Adjust your gas/mineral ratio to the situation Micro/position differently Place defensive structures/walloffs differently Different ways of utilising your units! The most ignored part of defending cheese Difficult - but SO so so rewarding Literally the best feeling in the world when you do some sick micro Practice vs a friend or practice partner is the fastest way to learn, but even just remembering what to do and trying to apply it next time can pay dividends.
If all of the above fails - then we look at adjusting our build to be safer
1 - ZvT frozen temple
Just not having any units No units out at 8:00? Just not a good build Important to distinguish you playing worse than normal/executing poorly with any actual need to change up or be afraid of something
Grab a few benchmarks!
6:30 - where even off a macro build decent sized attacks and pressures can start to happen ^Therefore the same timing you should be pumping out units pretty consistently Only a 2-base build, so even though this rep is gold - quite far from pro, we still should have a decent army and a wall by 8:00 Of course everything varies at different skill levels but nonetheless we simply don’t have many units out We just lacked any goals with this build
2 - Classic Early pool
Spot drone but don’t react this time Can easily pull 4 drones to kill a spine if you pull them nice and early If it somehow gets up without us spotting it build those spines of ours further back so we can defend them from lings Goes against basic idea of having them close enough to defend the hatch - but we can learn from this game and change it for next time now we recognise the secondary threat of the lings
3 - Make it a 1 base terran - failure of T to respond properly and stabilise
Forgot to respect the broodlings! Lead to massive chaos in the follow-up Even a second hatchery on the natural Even little things like realising he had to put the units in the bunker would have changed the entire game If we want to play safer vs this type of build often you just focus on getting lots more basic units In this case that would be building marines consistently out of both those early barracks to be safe We should always seek to scout amidst the chaos also This game we fail to do that and so have no idea what the follow-up is Just needed to calmly pull scvs to repair multiple times and keep the wall up
This replay is a great example of going back to the first mistake we make - and prioritising changing that. Sure we could have re-walled better, done this and that better. But if didn’t lose the first 2 marines + reaper to the broodloings we never would have had our wall go down and ended up in such a chaotic situation.
4 - Proxy hatch vs toss
Don’t pay attention to that drone positioning Disbelief that someone would dare do this rather than calmly responding to it Got stuck on focusing on it… the threat whilst large isn’t game-ending Remember these sorts of attacks cost a lot! Zerg is only on 24 drones If we can just secure the natural and maybe re-expand to the 3rd we can do ok We should be building stalkers after the first few adepts - adepts don’t damage spines.
Hold position micro to hold it back Rebuilding production at the natural Slow reaction - slow mothership core Forge/more gateways could go down Probes could be pulled to shut it down before it gets out of control Why does the natural have no wall AND the rocks aren’t down? 0 units… no prep at 3:00? A reaction to seeing no gas - but if you want to cut corners and play with sharp reactions like that you damned well better pay attention to a drone going missing in your base!
Putting on pressure to force mistakes Give ourselves room for error - Force reactions whilst already teching in something to take advantage of that reaction
G1 -
Trying to play straight up and being outskilled Poor execution Just lots of little things At this level its slight supply blocks Larva unspent Super late bane nest - biggest problem. Realisation that we’re far out-matched and not going to be able to win straight-up games
G2 -
Finding a way under their skin The more unique and strange the type of aggression the harder it is for them to read and the more likely their response will be very straightforward Doesn’t expect the roach swap whereas if we go 2-base muta and hit later, the chance we throw him off balance and force those mistakes is limited.
Questions - @x5_PiG
G3 -
Looking for a different way underneath our opponents skin Continue to keep them off balance - however in this case their’s decent unit production and the roaches don’t get all that much done. Nonetheless this has occupied and delayed Iaguz. Letting the drops in to scout + do damage twice is where we lose the game The surprise mutas aren’t a surprise anymore We could have followed up with yet another roach attack but decide to try and play defensively since we took so much damage - there’s a good amount of flexibility in the styles because each wave is not all-in. Our opponents know this and so are constantly worried of us teching/macroing out of control also.
On May 31 2016 14:06 Pillowpants117 wrote: I love that you defend the power of aggression. As a diamond terran it's really important not to let people talk me out of attacking constantly whenever there's opportunity to.
It's important to think about all aspects of the game! This latest episode is in the same vein, but tomorrow we'll be talking about defending cheese and hopefully mixing in some more episodes on strong macro play soon
Pig for overwatch bonjwa, playing the toss of OW! :D
first of all, thank you very much for the effort and making all these dailies. I hope you have a lot of fun making them (seems that way).
I just watched "PiG Daily #7 - How to make your own build and learn the game naturally", really inspiring, great stuff and definitely the way I like playing the game.
However, I felt a lot more frustrated these days and the reason is that I kind of know my build and I am the type of player which really tries to get stuff on point. So, for a long time, I tried to say "Ok, don't focus too much on the build, focus on mechanics (Multitasking, Macro, (Scouting))" but it did not work out the way I wanted.
The reason I found is that my mechanics get much worse when I actually want to do something. I figured that I was failing because I had to think about every move I make with my units which took so much of my brain capacity that I couldn't do anything else. For instance, I am a fan of the Day[9]-MCL (Mental Checklist) and I can do it quite okay if I have set moves I can do (like moving marines on the map while doing macro). I totally loose this ability when I am actually playing and have to think about e.g. "Do I send a drop now? For what purpose?" (//terranproblems ^^)
Now, how do you approach these movement goals? Do you just say "Ok, in the next 10 games, with my first unit x I want to do y" and see how it works? What do you do if you can't figure out what to do? (e.g. TvP on Dusk Towers, I have no clue how I can do anything to the protoss before he goes for his 4th base)
This all goes down to having a solid gameplan I think. My goal is to be able to react to my opponent with prepared reactions which I'll figure out when needed but I don't want to think about every move every game.
On June 01 2016 21:45 Liox wrote: Hello Jared/x5_PiG,
first of all, thank you very much for the effort and making all these dailies. I hope you have a lot of fun making them (seems that way).
I just watched "PiG Daily #7 - How to make your own build and learn the game naturally", really inspiring, great stuff and definitely the way I like playing the game.
However, I felt a lot more frustrated these days and the reason is that I kind of know my build and I am the type of player which really tries to get stuff on point. So, for a long time, I tried to say "Ok, don't focus too much on the build, focus on mechanics (Multitasking, Macro, (Scouting))" but it did not work out the way I wanted.
The reason I found is that my mechanics get much worse when I actually want to do something. I figured that I was failing because I had to think about every move I make with my units which took so much of my brain capacity that I couldn't do anything else. For instance, I am a fan of the Day[9]-MCL (Mental Checklist) and I can do it quite okay if I have set moves I can do (like moving marines on the map while doing macro). I totally loose this ability when I am actually playing and have to think about e.g. "Do I send a drop now? For what purpose?" (//terranproblems ^^)
Now, how do you approach these movement goals? Do you just say "Ok, in the next 10 games, with my first unit x I want to do y" and see how it works? What do you do if you can't figure out what to do? (e.g. TvP on Dusk Towers, I have no clue how I can do anything to the protoss before he goes for his 4th base)
This all goes down to having a solid gameplan I think. My goal is to be able to react to my opponent with prepared reactions which I'll figure out when needed but I don't want to think about every move every game.
Greetings Liox
Hey Liox thnx for posting the question here. I think you begin to answer your own question towards the end when you say it's all about having a solid gameplan. You just need to have a rough gameplan and then do things that make sense based off your own understanding and intuition. Just focusing on multi-tasking, macro and scouting doesn't make sense if you don't know why or when to do things. You would have no idea what to do except just mindlessly clicking on things and building things at random.
You should watch pro games and watch what they do with their units. If you struggle in tvp on dusk - watch what someone good does, think about what you're capable of - and make a list of what timings you want to be hitting, where you want to be pressuring etc. Then go put it into action. When things don't work out - analyse why, what you can do better to make it work, or if your plan needs changing.
Unit movement can always follow a pattern with a certain build in a certain matchup. The first time you encounter a situation you might be slow to react cos overthinking it, or you don't react at all because you're not thinking and just doing what you always do. After these games you say "ok next time I'll react faster, or next time when I see X I will change my unit movement".
I think the best thing you could do is post a replay in the strategy forum with a bit of self analysis and get some free coaching. Players will no doubt give you some great insight and direction on where you can focus to improve. Learning on your own is great, but it doesn't have to be in a vacuum. Debate and discuss with others, but always use your own judgement at the end of the day.
Edit: Whilst focusing on mechanics is great you still should have certain goals in mind like when I was learning Terran my first few sessions were just honing in on these points:
I'm gunna focus on just going marine-medivac today
*I want to have near perfect macro cycles and focus on that
*Once I get to 3-base saturation there isn't so much macro to do, so I focus mostly on multi-prong, positioning and drops
That way I work on a few areas of my core mechanical gameplay by simplifying the game.
I'm going to answer a question from Twitter here, because twitter only fits 140 characters:
@Granas1988:
Hello Pig: I have a Question about defending Aggression (&Cheese) as Protoss, especally against Zerg. You said: after defending aggression you should wait to let your advantage kick in, and then attack him. How do I know I've enough without missing my timing? Sometimes I attack to late, sometimes to early. Wouldn't it be better to harass Zerg earlier so he has to build more Units instead of Worker? How much Tech is okay since if I'm building units I get less tech out, which I feel like, is critical for Toss.
PS: Thx for your daily.
In general yes a very good way to deal with the follow-up, especially if we can't get full scouting is to counter-attack. Every situation has its own intricacies, however against zerg due to their production being used for both units and economy, even fake pushes can achieve a nice goal. So often the moment you feel safe to push across you try to move out and pressure zerg, sometimes just moving to near their side of the map, then pulling home - forcing them to build units rather than drones.
To answer the question directly though, how do you know when to attack?
Scouting: Scout how much they are committing to economy or army behind their aggression. The only reason not to move out straight away is if they're preparing for another all-in and you're afraid of being swarmed when you move out. Luckily Recall helps mitigate this risk - and scouting through hallucination, phenix, oracle, prism or observer will let you know for sure. Scouting drones being built = you should push soon. Scouting army being built = you should just defend and look to expand/tech up when its safe, because your economy is stronger.
Game-sense:
Scenario 1: A zerg throws 80 lings at your wall between 3:30-5:00. You hold, only losing a few gates and pylons in the wall and 2 adepts. You've calmly built extra gates in the back of your base to replace them. You know you've taken very little damage for a HUGE investment into his attack. So you make 1-2 rounds of units and counter-push immediately. Knowing even if he's going for only units he can't keep up with your 2-base production.
Scenario 2: A terran pushes you with 6 marines when you're not looking. He kills your mothership-core and 6 probes. You took pretty big damage for a small investment. You know you're behind. Counter-pushing isn't really something you're focused on doing unless you want to go fully all-in trying to catch him off guard. The reason is you're behind, you don't have any advantage to leverage. In the previous scenario you had an advantage to leverage.
Thank you! PS: against zerg 3 minute aggression or cheese. Do you suggest to go more for SG, Robo or GW Scout? Because I'm afraif of beeing to late to scout to his greed.
PiG Daily #14 - "What If Wednesday" - Harstem vs Elazer - loser gets to recover game!
No notes for this one, but a big shoutout to Cascade for floating the What-if-Wednesdays idea in this thread! Great stuff mate, I look forward to presenting it better next week now I've got a feel for it
On June 02 2016 17:06 Granas1 wrote: Thank you! PS: against zerg 3 minute aggression or cheese. Do you suggest to go more for SG, Robo or GW Scout? Because I'm afraif of beeing to late to scout to his greed.
I'm planning a series of episodes "how to scout Zerg" and same for P and Terran where we look at understanding those races. Normally you just check to make sure they did normal hatch gas pool (scout with probe after gate, or after pylon on 4-player map) and then check if 3rd base is there with adept. If no 3rd base you play safer: instant moco, faster gates + more unit production etc.
Thanks for shoutout. Great to see pros analyse their own games in depth like this. Impressive how good handle all three had on what was going wrong.
Maybe it is possible to isolate that single point even more, as they seem to know exactly what went wrong? In this game, it was the drop defense between 3.40 (or whatever it was) up to maybe 6-7 min where the first push came in. I took down supply at 6.30 in the three games and got:
original game: Z: 97 P: 106, toss push halfway across.
first re-game: Z: 102 P: 99, toss push halfway across.
second re-game: Z: 110 P: 100, toss army still at home.
Maybe you don't even need to play out the rest of the game after that? It is pretty clear that Elazar handled it better.
So when analysing where the problem was ans how to fix it, maybe also think about at what point the fix should have kicked in, and play only up to that point. If you set up clear objectives: "I want to be in that position at that time", you can quicker assess how the different methods compare. I think that could be good training, but maybe doesn't make a spectator friendly stream? If you want to see what happens afterwards you can always resume from one of the new replays just before you stop and play from there... Well, I don't know, does this make sense?
On June 03 2016 00:08 Cascade wrote: Thanks for shoutout. Great to see pros analyse their own games in depth like this. Impressive how good handle all three had on what was going wrong.
Maybe it is possible to isolate that single point even more, as they seem to know exactly what went wrong? In this game, it was the drop defense between 3.40 (or whatever it was) up to maybe 6-7 min where the first push came in. I took down supply at 6.30 in the three games and got:
original game: Z: 97 P: 106, toss push halfway across.
first re-game: Z: 102 P: 99, toss push halfway across.
second re-game: Z: 110 P: 100, toss army still at home.
Maybe you don't even need to play out the rest of the game after that? It is pretty clear that Elazar handled it better.
So when analysing where the problem was ans how to fix it, maybe also think about at what point the fix should have kicked in, and play only up to that point. If you set up clear objectives: "I want to be in that position at that time", you can quicker assess how the different methods compare. I think that could be good training, but maybe doesn't make a spectator friendly stream? If you want to see what happens afterwards you can always resume from one of the new replays just before you stop and play from there... Well, I don't know, does this make sense?
Hmm good point. I think me taking down the supplies at a key point to benchmark it as we go is a great way to point out the difference - but I still want it to feel like a showmatch and have the games conclude so it's an entertaining (not just educational) viewing experience.
Hi Notorious PIG, just wanted to say I'm loving the new content, struggle to make the live streams but am catching up on youtube. Where is the best place to donate in appreciation?
Safe tank liberator turtle TvP - for shutting down sneaky/aggressive protoss like puck Dusk Anti-disruptor PvT Shuts down the prism drops with turrets/vikings/libs/positioning Uses superior range to nullify the seige potential of the disruptors (tanks + fast range libs) Waits for the far superior army before starting to push Small counter drops to punish the full focus on the front The disruptor player wants to just stare at the battle and force the fights there. If they can do that their army is ridiculously powerful
Super safe vs early aggression Looks quite TY inspired - shows impressive defence against the range of Protoss possibilities Very defensive stance Always getting turrets Tanks to block most conventional attacks
Barracks gas Reaper CC Reactor + factory 2:40/24 2nd gas 2 helions + immediate starport Liberator → viking 4:00 3rd CC 2xbarracks → 2x tech lab Tank productionx2 → Then factory builds reactors Rax on reactor just building marines 4:40 ebay Single medivac production → swaps onto a factory reactor ~7:25 5:10 Turrets +1 weapons + stim Combat shields delayed cos short on gas 4th and 5th barracks ~7:00 when you have the money ~7:30 2nd port + fusion core
Notes: Dirty lib spot on back of inbase natural on Dusk Pretty good lib spot on the side of natural on Frozen
Frozen Temple:
Struggles to take the 3rd here Much more area for blink into the main Much more exposed 3rd base Very hard for the immobile tank-liberator to get out there to defend it Also the early widow mine drop didn’t achieve much yet slowed down the rest of the build Still probably could secure it in my opinion - when combat shields and stim finishes if he moved his tankivacs further up the cliff and moved all his units up as one he had a good shot - but let too many units be siphoned off at first and then lacked an army that could punish puck’s posturing
On June 04 2016 06:53 thefatshorts wrote: Hi Notorious PIG, just wanted to say I'm loving the new content, struggle to make the live streams but am catching up on youtube. Where is the best place to donate in appreciation?
Thanks for the support mate. I know a lot of people can't catch it live, so after I've done it for a month or so I think I'll start a Patreon page so those watching on Youtube have a way of supporting the content directly. Gotta ensure consistency and work on some basic improvements to the show first though!
Don’t need a build order We don’t need to have advanced knowledge of what counters what ^We can start to learn the basics of that stuff somewhat naturally.
When you start out you just want to be working on two tenents of Starcraft:
Constant worker production Trying not to get supply blocked
And have a general GAMEPLAN and direction we want to head in:
Gameplan Always start with a unit producing structure Gas
Pause - Queing workers back to production
Ling speed, cyber core or tech lab for stim Expand Add production
Pause - When your first start out you’ll struggle to remember to do what. Juggling Always keeping up their MACRO CYCLE back at home, and squeezing new actions AROUND those tasks
In this case
@natural saturation - gases Constantly build units out of all your new production
Pause - We start needing to amp up our supply buildings around now - our production is geater, our economy is greater. Early on we were ok with getting within a few supply of our cap - but as we produce faster we want a bigger and bigger SUPPLY GAP.
30/40 earlygame is fine - 10 gap 60/80 is fine - 20 gap 120/160 is fine - 40 gap 140/200
3rd base whenever you have excess money
Advanced tech Just choose a core of basic units + 1 or at most 2 advanced units and aim to work with this composition when you first start out. Choose units you like, don’t worry about what’s good vs each race.
3rd base saturated -
Plenty of economy - you still need to keep expanding quite quickly becase your bases run out of mining - but we can now remove the “build probes” from our macro list. Now it’s just build units and pylons At this stage of the game we can start focusing on the map and our army a little more
8:00 - PAUSE
8:00 your main will half run out - so pull out workers leaving just 8 behind. 11:00 is the time to do this in your natural also. The aim is for your 4th base onwards not really to have probes built for them, just to transfer workers from your first 3 bases as they run out.
Ask Questions @x5_PiG - and remember to hang around for ABATHUR GIVEAWAY
Max out and a-move
Move command + A-move to get through chokes Full focus on your army to make sure you aren’t attacking into some horrible position Making sure you A-move on the ground, don’t accidentally click on an enemy unit or all your units will ignore everything else trying to get to that one unit
Summary:
Constantly build workers Constantly build pylons/ovies/depots Constantly build out of our production buildings Follow the general order we went through - go back and watch it again - write it down Check out the written down build order as posted on the TL thread:
Benchmark:
How well am I doing? Check the time you max out! As you get better at remembering everything you need to do you’ll see you max out much earlier In this scenario I max out at about 9:00. See if you can do it before 12 minutes on your first go (against an easy AI)!
Questions!
Abathur Giveaway
Btw I'll be giving away 3 more Abathur codes, one at the end of each of the next 3 episodes!
You can micro well without these - but it’s generally considered harder. That being said always use your own judgement. No mouse acceleration - neutral windows sensitivity Preferably use DPI between 400-1000 - and plz don’t use over 2500! Find what works for you! Mouse accuracy does take some dexterity - but with practice anyone can get pretty decent micro
Talk about click brain connection
Main Techniques:
boxing micro - pretty much everything! It can be a line Accurate boxing takes a bit of time to get used to. A lot of players practice dragging boxes accurately over their workers at the start of the game In LoTV there’s not as much downtime, but in WoL and HoTS I actually improved my accuracy a lot but sitting their practicing these boxes at the start of the game Drag from every angle! Most players can only do a box from one corner.
Concaves:
Worth every penny! ANY RANGED units benefit from this! Even vs melee units you often pull back your units in a rough concave You don’t have time for a perfect “banana-moon” concave of death Most of the time we settle for the Pleb-concave. 2-box micro! Doesn’t look pretty, but gets the job done!
Spreading bio vs Banelings Many box micro! Still try to spread into a rough concave You can’t always do this reactively - just pre-split!
Bio On TOP of widow mines to stop them being activated
Spellcasters -
HOLD DOWN SPELL MECHANIC!!! Most forgotten thing in Starcraft Heaps of people forget you can use this You can still micro without it by individually tapping, but this can help you a lot
separate hotkeys
Getting used to moving multiple hotkeys around rather than just one - just takes a bit of practice If you have more than 2 or you want to make things a little easier - just follow your spellcasters on a unit in your main group so they automatically tag along The downside of this is you won’t be as practiced at quickly grabbing that hotkey and giving them orders
While all your content is very useful regarding the level of play, I was wondering if once in a while you could throw in an episode that specifically targets more advanced players.
As an exemple, as a top dia player having issues breaking into masters, I would have loved having some details of what are the important aspects of the game that matter the most at this specific level in order to break my ceiling. While I feel I reached such a ceiling in terms of execution speed or so it seems, I wonder if I can improve focussing only on decision making or not, and what are the most effective "low apm" strats. This is just an exemple, but you get the idea.
In any case, thanks for the good job and please keep going!
well, most of the episodes till now are rly great for such players as you, DjayEl. #1-5, 7-9, 11-13 and also the "what if" wednesdays are just what youre looking for.
focus on gas timings, understanding your build, have a gameplan for every matchup etc. for more in depth, watch these episodes, where pig talks about certain players and their playstile.
overall, most of the dailys are for midlevel players (plat-low master) and even from episodes like "fundamental mechanics", you can learn alot! steal hotkeys f.e. i had no clue about! now im using them.
Hey Pig! Not sure if you already have this but I think you should have a rule against the opponent watching the stream. Information is such a big part of the game, it's just silly if Puck knows the adaptations of TLO.
Absolutely awesome show, great work PiG, please keep it up! Also love the idea of "What if?" superinformative! Finally a show that fills the void after day9 daily
Shift away from mass muta More ling focused now Big changes in how zerg has to build their economy Big focus on securing a fast 4th base and a heavy mineral income Aiming to have the numbers to contest the Terran on the map and spread creep like crazy Not playing from way behind!! Still need to go Hive
Hatch-pool-hatch-gas 3rd base is easy to defend here so this is actually a pretty solid opening Gets larva pumping out very early on What’s the weakness? Initial droning is a little slower and ling speed is later Any sort of pressure that can force units out quite early can interrupt a build like this a little bit. Force zerg to build fighting units rather than drones super early on and they won’t be able to get out the early drones to keep up with larva production - making such a fast hatch pointless
Rushes to mutas quite fast - not many queens, bane nest, RW or spine Exposed to hellbat timing But very effective vs everything else Mutas popping at 6:30 makes this very safe vs range liberators - perhaps why guru chose to do it here
Otherwise quite safe - Extra lings to both pressure, scout and shut helions off the map These sorts of builds do require very good responses to liberator pressure normally as you defend with just queens and spores - you need to be on top of constantly adjusting their positioning so the liberators can’t destroy your mining.
4:45 - only grabs extra gas after he hits saturation on 3-base (Rule of 1-gas!) 5:30 - evo chamber Focusing on drones + expanding super hard as well as fast mutas - so upgrades aren’t too fast
6:30 - realises he can’t hold the 5th and instantly puts down a macro hatch instead - you NEED 5-hatches with this style Once he shuts down the push - drones the 4th hard 7:30 - infestation pit Not like hots where you stay on MLB for ages Just some mutas for harassment, shutting down drops and map control - but don’t mass them because weakness to libs as well as in front on engagements
10:00
Zerg should be counter-attacking Not taking direct massed engagements Just buying time for Ultras!
Overcommittment to mutas - Should only go high on mutas if you’re able to consistently kill off medivacs or do harassment damage and have tempo going. If they aren’t doing damage immediately they usually never pay for themselves. ends up working in this case But a very scary moment where if another 12-13 2-2 marines survive - it’s going to be looking bad
On June 09 2016 21:33 TokO wrote: Hey Pig! Not sure if you already have this but I think you should have a rule against the opponent watching the stream. Information is such a big part of the game, it's just silly if Puck knows the adaptations of TLO.
Yeah I agree, next time I'll make it clear with the players before-hand to avoid watching the stream and also to stick to the same style they started with. They can stay flexible but we'd like to see this more as "pro-gamer practice" rather than a showmatch where the players constantly shift strategies in an attempt to win.
Any chance of explaining fundamentals or tips for someone willing to learn TheCore hotkeys? I remember some time ago you said on stream that you were trying to master it, doing some practice before WCS (or WCS qualifier, don't quite remember), and at daily #10 I've noticed that J is your drone hotkey, then I thought "hmmm, I think it worked well for him"...
EDIT: OOPS hit post before the videos are finished processing, my bad
PiG Daily #20 - Scouting vs Zerg - Understanding the Swarm
Part 1:
Part 2:
On June 13 2016 10:53 ricardoy wrote: Hi PiG, great show so far!!!
Any chance of explaining fundamentals or tips for someone willing to learn TheCore hotkeys? I remember some time ago you said on stream that you were trying to master it, doing some practice before WCS (or WCS qualifier, don't quite remember), and at daily #10 I've noticed that J is your drone hotkey, then I thought "hmmm, I think it worked well for him"...
Hmm it's such a complex transition over to the Core I think each player needs to customise and make sense of the hotkeys themselves. It's also been so long since I got used to them I'd probably forget how some of it works. I'm not sure it's the most accessible topic. Whilst the Core is awesome - I wouldn't recommend it to most players. I feel you need to be pretty hardcore to swap over to it - and be willing to really invest into loss.
However doing a session on how to learn and practice new mechanics is definitely something I might be able to do. It's something I talk about in coaching ALL the time - the only issue would be turning it into a fully fleshed-out episode - but I think I might be able to find a way - added to list of ideas!
Pool to create a wall with the gas Has to have enough space for queen to pop from side to side of the gap, otherwise it can get awkward. Can create even more of a wall with bane nest/evos etc for instance vs a lingbane all-in. Wall-off + queens hold position in gaps to defend your mineral line Soo vs Byul evo chamber + queen + bane nest wall
All important tech in between main and natural - not on the edge of the base where drops or air harass can snipe it easily. Cute thing in some super lategame situations - and was quite common back in the SH era of hots was to then surround the tech/upgrades in spines so it couldn’t be focused down. This way rather than having to cover all your first 3 bases with spines you’d put them all together in one big clump where only a massive drop could fight it. If you lost a hatchery - no big deal, you lose some drones, no big deal, so long as you don’t lose the tech - at that stage of the game most of the hatcheries are mined out anyway. Don’t block up behind your mineral line or you create choke points for drops/adepts etc to hide in - also limits queen/ravager/spore ability to stop liberators
Frost example
Expanding away from your opponent - better when using a mobile army - lingbane-muta Easier to defend frontal push More exposed for you to defend from counters and drops Expanding towards opponent - better when using a less mobile, meatier or stronger-pushing army - roach ravager Harder to defend from frontal push Easier to defend from counters On the path of your army
^Terran often is aggressive front-pushing in all matchups, so they almost always expand towards their opponents, even when using a mobile bio composition. Also if you have a ranged army you prefer the closer base - as long as you can fight all together in a choke-type area you’ll be favoured - if you have to spread out vs a massive melee army (adept, ling, chargelot, roach) then your army becomes a lot less efficient Protoss is almost always more defensive and using a slower composition, so gets the bases towards the enemy. However sometimes with say a wonky phenix-adept composition that’s hyper mobile they might expand away from the enemy.
^Example of Frost 4th base locations in vertical spawns
Terran
Walloff every game Adepts, speedlings, helions Always start your next wall nice and early at your natural - start queing those depots up! Reactors/tech labs slow down production a lot so you’re very reliant on walls Production facilities in neat rows - leaving space for addons + tank size walking path. Back-door walloffs to stop adepts! Hiding tech - harder to swap addons, but you try and put them further back so units poking up the ramp or overlord sacrifices have less chance of spotting it 3rd depot is super late these days but because of the kickstart you normally have enough units to defend most early attacks with just bunker and scv pull
Bunker at natural Bunker in 3rd If you think its heavy adept prism aggression then bunker in inbase natural or main mineral line
Ebays in a safe place Make important addons ( early on for stim cs ) further on the inside so they are not vulnerable to stalkers shooting from the lowground or blinking on them as fast Engineering bays and armories are preferrably together and usually between the main and natural to make them the hardest to snipe for massive warp prism warpins pay attention to the map layout to know where to build turrets and how many to counter prisms
Uthermal advice:
[7:55:21 PM] uThermal: - Walloff and secondary wall off are first thing indeed [7:55:52 PM] uThermal: - Make important addons ( early on for stim cs ) further on the inside so they are not vulnerable to stalkers shooting from the lowground or blinking on them as fast [7:56:36 PM] uThermal: - Engineering bays and armories are preferrably together and usually between the main and natural to make them the hardest to snipe for massive warp prism warpins [7:57:35 PM] uThermal: Besides these its important to make production buildings close together for addon swaps and pay attention to the map layout to know where to build turrets and how many to counter prisms
Accolades: I ended up watching your stream and checking out the show after hearing you cast - your wording, what you chose to highlight, and the energy you put into your commentary based on the scenario at hand was eloquent indeed. I'm stoked the show has the same feel, and the way you try to highlight things that are left unsaid and state/summarize them for the audience in What-If Wednesdays is great too, feels like you wear a "journalism" hat when talking to other Pros which adds a lot of clarity and purpose to the conversation imo. These dailies ramp up the "social" feel with respect to Day9s dailies too which is nice. Keep it up!
What is my point and do I even have one? I am a random player in gold league, I adopted TheCore about a year ago. I'm just lately starting to take notes on what I see on the production tab and worker/army overlay in TY/Dark/Zest games to try and emulate their styles in each matchup. Prior to this, I just found it far too onerous to actually learn a "build order". I had put a real effort forth using SALT or a sheet of paper vs. AI many times, but sporadically. I struggle to sustain the learning effort to lock-down a build and commit it to memory because frankly the process of learning it feels sub-optimal and the idea of using the clock/supply too glib (clearly I am also being lazy, that's a given). I will often resort to free-wheeling even when I know I'm going against the grain of the style I am trying to learn and miss the timing to tech up / expand / take gases for the next leg of the game. I think part of this can be attributed to the way I have watched SC2. I have spent years watching VODs (before playing I watched SC2) without paying due attention to the production tab, minimap, or other information present in the overlays such as worker/army supply balance. After digging in to improve my mechanics, I'm starting to realize that I just don't understand how SC2 works because my picture of "how its done" is static - I just witness snapshots of flashy micro with big armies or harass groups and *not* the pre-meditation and mentality of scarcity/urgency that goes into how good players posture against one another and chain together advantages and counters into a win. If I'd been watching the production tab instead of the eye candy in the middle of the screen, I might have a pretty good sense of what builds/plays/responses beat what other builds/plays/responses (building by building and unit by unit) under what game conditions, versus having a pretty good sense of what compositions beat what other compositions in engagements and harass - a continuous vs. discrete view of well executed SC.
I have noticed that the ideas and concepts of a build order bounce off me because I don't understand some basic SC2 math - the fastest possible timing for specific techs whether attacking or defending, correlating income from a given number of bases/gases with production requirements, the effect of upgrades on unit production, how long things take to kick in, pay for themselves, or become redundant. There are these timers and hidden benchmarks all over the place in SC2 matches, and along with mechanics being able to reason about them in real-time and correctly seems key to tactical success and efficiency in-game. I kind of picture a player's understanding as a large decision tree, like an expanded tech tree, where if you falter moving down a branch or your opponent takes a chainsaw to that branch that side of the tree kind of "goes dark" and you need to readjust to find another path to victory - build orders are really just a way to push deep into that tree chasing a victory and dodge the chainsaws while applying your own, but the chainsaws are bounded by time and resources as to where they are most cutting along different paths. Anyways I have no idea how to turn this into a reasonable question or topic for a show - I just feel like an incomplete picture and shallow treatment of timings, production, and economy afflict many players' understanding of the game including myself, and it may have a lot to do with the way we try to digest and review information about SC2.
Thanks so much for the great stuff you're putting out there dude!
On June 20 2016 02:53 dylanht wrote: Hi PiG - awesome content!
Accolades: I ended up watching your stream and checking out the show after hearing you cast - your wording, what you chose to highlight, and the energy you put into your commentary based on the scenario at hand was eloquent indeed. I'm stoked the show has the same feel, and the way you try to highlight things that are left unsaid and state/summarize them for the audience in What-If Wednesdays is great too, feels like you wear a "journalism" hat when talking to other Pros which adds a lot of clarity and purpose to the conversation imo. These dailies ramp up the "social" feel with respect to Day9s dailies too which is nice. Keep it up!
What is my point and do I even have one? I am a random player in gold league, I adopted TheCore about a year ago. I'm just lately starting to take notes on what I see on the production tab and worker/army overlay in TY/Dark/Zest games to try and emulate their styles in each matchup. Prior to this, I just found it far too onerous to actually learn a "build order". I had put a real effort forth using SALT or a sheet of paper vs. AI many times, but sporadically. I struggle to sustain the learning effort to lock-down a build and commit it to memory because frankly the process of learning it feels sub-optimal and the idea of using the clock/supply too glib (clearly I am also being lazy, that's a given). I will often resort to free-wheeling even when I know I'm going against the grain of the style I am trying to learn and miss the timing to tech up / expand / take gases for the next leg of the game. I think part of this can be attributed to the way I have watched SC2. I have spent years watching VODs (before playing I watched SC2) without paying due attention to the production tab, minimap, or other information present in the overlays such as worker/army supply balance. After digging in to improve my mechanics, I'm starting to realize that I just don't understand how SC2 works because my picture of "how its done" is static - I just witness snapshots of flashy micro with big armies or harass groups and *not* the pre-meditation and mentality of scarcity/urgency that goes into how good players posture against one another and chain together advantages and counters into a win. If I'd been watching the production tab instead of the eye candy in the middle of the screen, I might have a pretty good sense of what builds/plays/responses beat what other builds/plays/responses (building by building and unit by unit) under what game conditions, versus having a pretty good sense of what compositions beat what other compositions in engagements and harass - a continuous vs. discrete view of well executed SC.
I have noticed that the ideas and concepts of a build order bounce off me because I don't understand some basic SC2 math - the fastest possible timing for specific techs whether attacking or defending, correlating income from a given number of bases/gases with production requirements, the effect of upgrades on unit production, how long things take to kick in, pay for themselves, or become redundant. There are these timers and hidden benchmarks all over the place in SC2 matches, and along with mechanics being able to reason about them in real-time and correctly seems key to tactical success and efficiency in-game. I kind of picture a player's understanding as a large decision tree, like an expanded tech tree, where if you falter moving down a branch or your opponent takes a chainsaw to that branch that side of the tree kind of "goes dark" and you need to readjust to find another path to victory - build orders are really just a way to push deep into that tree chasing a victory and dodge the chainsaws while applying your own, but the chainsaws are bounded by time and resources as to where they are most cutting along different paths. Anyways I have no idea how to turn this into a reasonable question or topic for a show - I just feel like an incomplete picture and shallow treatment of timings, production, and economy afflict many players' understanding of the game including myself, and it may have a lot to do with the way we try to digest and review information about SC2.
Thanks so much for the great stuff you're putting out there dude!
Thanks so much - I have a lot of trouble going back to basics to see other player's point of view sometimes so this sort of feedback is actually very useful. It's hard for me to immediately pinpoint how I'd do a show to address this but definitely gives me some food for thought on some of my next beginner basics as well as decision making episodes.
Seither vs Kingkong KSS - WCS Summer ANZ Qualifier
Same notes as below pretty much But goes for double tankivac pressure
Beasty vs Snute Invader - corsair cup 13th June - courtesy of basetradetv sub replay packs
Barracks-gas-reactor-CC 2nd depot scv goes right into factory
Factory Reactor Swaps with starport Single widow mine Tech lab Tank Build reactor
27-29 supply 2:40 - 2nd gas (2:20 if going double liberator) Straight into starport
Starport Double medivac Double liberator/liberator + viking (save 75 gas if viking!) Build reactor 14 marines, and a mine load up with 2 medivacs Can hit a little faster with less marines
4:45/67 supply 3rd CC Barracks builds tech lab (keeps pumping marines if gumiho version) 2 more rax 84 supply/5:37 2xebay + 3rd gas Steadily add more rax up to 7-8, 3 tech labs
Gumiho vs DRG Frozen Temple
Unloads in main of frozen temple at 4:33 with 12 marines and a mine Gumiho keeps building extra liberators and delays his extra barracks Not many units behind the push - potentially vulnerable to a counterattack Super late stim and combat shields Follows up with double tankivac drop pressure whilst liberators are being annoying Waves of nonstop pressure Forcing mistakes out of zerg constantly
[11:00:10 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: for the tank folowup [11:00:13 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: u go fast double gas [11:00:15 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: after 3rd [11:00:22 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: for bio u delay gas till u have 2 ebays 5 rax
[11:00:58 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: no tanks [11:01:03 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: factory makes reactors [11:01:05 PM] Sheldon "Seither" llllllllllll: for the other rax
Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
I heard that life didn't use base location hotkeys either. :o
Imagine what he could have done with proper setup!!
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
I heard that life didn't use base location hotkeys either. :o
Imagine what he could have done with proper setup!!
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
I've heard people mention this, I wonder how situational it was. As a general rule doing things manually is better as it is consistent and always works - as long as you have the speed for it. 99.9% of players unfortunately will just play worse when they try not to hotkey eggs
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
hotkeying eggs can be really detrimental sometimes for example when harassing with mutalisks and you have your eggs hotkeyed your rallied mutalisks may just fly over your opponents army and die so I think that's why he wasn't using it always.
On June 26 2016 10:57 Vedeynevin wrote: I don't suppose you could analyze or explain what the hell was happening in the Masa vs TRUE series
Really bad observing?
I only caught the start of the series watching the VoDs now - let's see what weirdness I'll find here...
Edit:
Ok ... well this was a lot like watching two friends play late at night.. super weird games. I've been toying with the idea of True's style but haven't practiced it a lot yet. Definitely might talk about the whole lingbane + drops vs Terran dynamic. Lots of focus on how attention, apm and tempo works in such a mechanical matchup
For the most part it was just Masa making mistakes vs Ling-queen drop though. I'm sure he knows that he just needed to raise depots/pull scvs from natural more often. Not spread out his marines and use his scvs to buffer for them properly too.
"Rather than getting lost in the broad complexity of Starcraft, they focus on one particular strength of their style, and that's what actually allows them to play so well"
"PiG Daily #27 - Using A Gameplan to Narrow Your Focus"
Narrowing your focus - adjusting your gameplan to improve
Having a gameplan is great because:
This is the first step in developing a build - whether it’s something written down exactly to every supply, or if it’s just a mental order that we tend to follow -
This will allow us to develop habits and learn and improve our play.
REPLAY OF Roach ling infestor into ultra
Why do we make a gameplan?
So we have an idea of where we’re heading So we can refine HOW we get there! So we can have consistency in our play! We need consistency to learn! Refine our responses to things If we play completely differently every single game, we will improve very slowly BINDING OF ISAAC - so hard to learn! By having goals we can evaluate how well we’re working towards them We can make adjustments to how we play in order to fit our game-plan better
NARROWING YOUR FOCUS On the one hand it gives you a familiar pattern so you can feel out responses to things and instinctively learn what reactions work for you!
However you can also ADJUST your gameplan to work on a specific area of your play. This is something not enough players use. It’s similar to the idea of imposing a restriction or CHALLENGE upon yourself to work on a certain area.
IDRA AND SOME OTHER PROS NO SOUND - CANT HEAR ALERTS SO Forces them to watch minimap
Example 1:
Often when I teach people one of my builds I try to give them a SIMPLIFIED gameplan to what I use so that it helps NARROW their focus For instance I tell them just to do a big all-in after the early game macro - that way all that matters is your early macro - you either have enough stuff or you don’t. The game ends there either way. This allows you to refine the early-game and focus on that in isolation
Replay - Just the opening into a Timing Attack
Replay - Mass Roach Ravager Infestor ZvT
Snute did this for months in early LoTV and quickly developed some of the best infestor + ravager control in LoTV.
Defending roach-ling timings as Protoss, defending cannon rushes as Terran and shutting down tank-marine pushes as zerg are just some of the topics we covered in today's Daily. All covered with general rules you can apply to countless other situations
The PiG Daily #28 - Beginner Basics - The art of Defence
Spotters! Unit outside their base Try to react quickly to see their army - if we miss it, send another unit out We want to assess their force!
Is it Scary?
If not - just continue build as normal.
Once we see a scary attack coming there’s a few things we need to focus on, and they’re not what you might expect!
1 : Supply! Ovies/pylons/depots You’re going to be busy microing a fight soon! You won’t have time to remember to build depots, nows a good time to build extra to make sure we don’t get blocked Many players freak out and just try to spam units - and as the enemy hits, they’re already supply blocked! You’ll often lose some supply buildings in an attack!
2: Build more units Simple enough Start those units building immediately! Prioritise production of units over tech, upgrades or more workers.
3. Defensive positioning Ensure you hold the best position possible Usually the top of a ramp Units pre-spread in a concave for bonus points! Units ready for SPECIAL maneuvers Eg. In TvP if we see stalkers coming across the map we have to be safe from a blink in the main so we keep our army between our bases so it can react both directions
Examples:
Every army is different and wants to use positioning differently
Zerg surround - BUILD LOTS OF OVIES WHEN SEE MOVEOUT → game vs seeker
Replay of PVZ HOLD
Now we’ll look at a very different use of positioning - and “sim-city” as protoss to defend a roach-ravager-ling all-in.
PvZ defending a ravager ling with simcity. - BUILD LOTS OF PYLONS WHEN you SEE the attack Focus just on building units constantly More gateways + more pylons (pylons are food AND defence AND a prime target in attack so they will die even more often)
4. Macro cycle 3 is part of this - but make sure once you prioritise those units you spend any other money you have to continue workers, tech, upgrades or whatever else you need in your build. You’ll be busy microing a battle soon so will neglect your macro for a while, best to soften the missed macro now!
SUPER EARLY or sneaky RUSHES - Worker pulls
Sometimes a rush is so sneaky, or hits so early that you don’t realise it’s coming early enough to be ready. Often pulling workers can be the difference between winning or losing! Many famous pro matches have been won with worker pulls!
Pro tips! Drone-drill Hold-position micro
On the note of pulling workers - let’s take a look at one of the most famous and ridiculous moments where an AGGRESSIVE worker pull mattered.
This brings us to the point of RANGED units and ranged advantage. If you have a ranged advantage, or you both have a primarily ranged army - then suddenly hiding behind your buildings can actually do more harm than good! In this case Stardust is caught in a choke next to his nexus where the blocking terrain and buildings actually obstructs his ability to establish a concave or battle-line - and so his units can’t all reach the enemy HOLD KEY POSITIONS instead of simcity Concave matters more than anything!
ELFI vs STARDUST:
Use them like any other melee unit - try to engage at the same time as everything else and get a good surround/surface area for them to fight!
Cannon Rush
I see people asking about this from all races so let’s go over the key points:
They need to build a pylon - and only THEN can they get cannons. In certain spots, the cannons are unbeatable SO DON’T let them get up!! Pull a decent handful of workers immediately and attack the pylon Bonus pts for blocking the best cannon positions VISUALISE the dirtiest spot a cannon could go and hold position or patrol a worker on that spot
On June 27 2016 20:54 LarDonG wrote: Hi Pig, Congratulations for the good work you do. Is it possible to have the replays of Snute doing roach ravager infestor please ?
I actually didn't have any reps of Snute - they were all of myself in ep 27. These days Snute has more range in his style, but a few months back it was just roach ravager infestor every single game - no hive transition just 3-3 upgrades.
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
hotkeying eggs can be really detrimental sometimes for example when harassing with mutalisks and you have your eggs hotkeyed your rallied mutalisks may just fly over your opponents army and die so I think that's why he wasn't using it always.
He seemed to do it in all situations as I recall. It's been a while since I watched those replays though.
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
hotkeying eggs can be really detrimental sometimes for example when harassing with mutalisks and you have your eggs hotkeyed your rallied mutalisks may just fly over your opponents army and die so I think that's why he wasn't using it always.
He seemed to do it in all situations as I recall. It's been a while since I watched those replays though.
Also, icyfar hype!
Yeah, mutas is the one unit I don't egg-hotkey, at least not when actively harassing. Once the mutas are out in a safe path from my base, I go home and pick up reinforcements from the rally-point location hotkey. Slows things down somewhat, but at my gold level, about half of the egg-hotkeyed reinforcing mutas die otherwise.
I just realized ICYFAR probably is minute 1: a unit must die, minute 2: a unit must die. Basically I was looking at the timer everytime a unit died, say 2:09 and I had until 3:09 to kill the next one. Anyways my replay is submitted and it obeys both of the rulings.
The PiG Daily #30 - Polt vs Hydra- What If? Wednesdays - ZvT -
NP ejozl even if it's SLIGHTLY out of the rulings that's ok, generally stick to em but if you accidentally break them and the games still entertaining it's still got a good shot!
On June 30 2016 00:03 ejozl wrote: I just realized ICYFAR probably is minute 1: a unit must die, minute 2: a unit must die. Basically I was looking at the timer everytime a unit died, say 2:09 and I had until 3:09 to kill the next one. Anyways my replay is submitted and it obeys both of the rulings.
Your version is stricter, so if you fulfill your criterion, you will also fulfill pigs.
On June 22 2016 11:23 MoosyDoosy wrote: Ay PiG, thanks for the dailies. I actually was smashed with the 1-1-1 drop so I'm taking notes now. -.-
Also, real thanks for the hotkey video. I've always had trouble, especially in LotV with the Ling Bling style mainly due to defending harass and sending units to harass but I've become a lot better with it due to Alt + #. Thanks a lot, was totally unaware of this and explains how Life managed his units so well.
Pretty sure the alt feature is new with LOTV. Life was just OP. He actually didn't hotkeys his eggs either (noticed it going through the replays of his Iem finals against maru).
I heard that life didn't use base location hotkeys either. :o
Imagine what he could have done with proper setup!!
Life's hotkey set up worked for his multi-prong harass style. Just like how you don't hotkey your mutas out of risk of them dying when you're harassing, Life was one of the best Zergs because of his Ling runbies and effective usage.
Blink all-ins: #31 - Aggressive Blink-prism PvZ - Keeping the zerg in check!
Similar opening to what Neeb showed at austin/Tours - harstem used it vs Elazer in our first What If? Wednesday Early glaive adept pressure to do damage and force lots of units as well as scout what zergs up to Blink follow-up to be flexible vs mutas, strong vs roaches, banes and hydras (pre-lurker) Style aims to push and limit/hurt zerg before lurkers/mutas This is an important part of pvz scouting/keeping zerg honest - built in pushes to punish, force safety and scout at the same time
You often won’t kill zerg before, but you can put the hurt on and then head down the regular counter-paths.
Vs mutas Kill em If you can’t Cannons Split up stalkers Double stargate + fleet beacon IF they keep building them
Vs Lurker Disruptors! Use your army, esp FF to keep him back. Similar to slowing down a seige tank push you just kind of stay in his face
What about vs mass lingbane styles? Once you realise they aren’t going for any roach/hydra tech you can just drop lots of gates and do an archon-adept push to usually kill these players. Or you can just push with blink and use FF to nullify the lingbane
Actually can be very strong vs this using FF and large adept warpins once the armies are smaller
I have a topic I would like your opinion about: In one of your last episodes you said, its better to be the aggressor in LotV especially in PvZ.
My problem is (most time in PvP and PvZ) when I see that my opponent is the aggressor. Following the basic we learned by JaKaTaK or Artosis of reactions toscouting: (If he goes for an Expand --> attack, If he goes for an attack --> defend, If he plays defenceiv --> expand).I'm on a defensive position. Most time survives an attack barely but get ahead through tech or worker, because opponent made a lot of units instead of worker.
But I find it difficult to scout when my opponent plays a really aggressive (non all-in) Style (I'm Protoss). I feel like I can't be aggressive myself and I'm afraid if I play counter attacks I'm gooing to lose. Also most scouting tech takes too long.
it’s usually good as all 3 races to send an early worker scout to see where your opponent spawned and spot any super early rushes. You don’t need to react unless you see an early rush, otherwise you just come home and continue your build. This will help you getting used to looking at your opponent's base and recognising the most basic scouting tells. Experienced players might say this isn’t necessary - but that’s because at their level they can still hold the rushes without seeing it until the last second.
Very early pool No buildings in their base (Proxy!) No expansion Pretty simple!
Three Stages of learning to scout
Stage 1 - Map control/vision and basic compositional choices
You always should aim to have vision: Outside your base Oh no he’s moving in to attack! Outside their base Oh no he’s moving out with a possible attack! On the edges of the map coming towards your base Here comes a drop!’ At each of their potential new bases Oh he’s taking another base Also assessing the army to compare - Is this a scary army right now? If not continue as normal and try to re-establish map control. If it IS SCARY then react hard to try and defend the incoming attack Keeping track of their number of bases - if they aren’t expanding as fast as most players, you should expect a higher chance of aggression. You don’t need to panic or freak out, but just try to keep track of how many bases your opponent is at - and only ever go about half to 1 full base of workers ahead before focusing on pure army.
Getting used to watching your minimap is also key to using this info When you first start out you just go through the motions of having that vision, even though you don’t always notice it spotting an attack coming You get better over time!
SCOUT THE COMPOSITION You can also throw in a unit sacrifice at the front to spy what their unit composition is. You’ll also see this whenever they move on the map. Other options are scans, drops, overseers, observers or prisms to scout their army. At this stage you don’t care about the base so much, it’s all about recognising their army so you can adjust your composition if needed. You might have a solid composition and gameplan that progresses well and you never need to respond to their composition. Don’t get hung up on REACTING to everything you see compositionally. ^Common rookie mistake is trying to REACT to everything because they’ve heard that SC is all about so many minute reactions and adaptations. But it’s not usually compositional. It’s more about timing. We’ll talk more about timing in future - but it’s more about how much someone’s committing to get certain units at certain points, assessed in the context of their economy/tech committment At this stage just focus on having the right sort of units to deal with their stuff
Stage 2 - Scouting their base and understanding responses
General categorisations Signs of greed, signs of aggression COMPLETELY INSANE BUILDS that are unfamiliar - suddenly become decipherable when we use this method
Terran Greed CCs/hatch/nexus Ebays/armouries/forges Lots of addons Lots of tech paths Robo + Sg + Twilight Lurker den + infestation + spire
Aggression Lack of the above Lots of production with no addons pumping units Fighting stuff popping out of eggs Low drone saturation
POLT VS HYDRA SEJONG
How to assess the situation:
However if we see a really clear set of tells:
No addons on barracks or starport → Just producing constantly Aggression No 3rd base = Aggression No ebays = Aggression
Ok shit this is really clear → he’s all-inning, build lots of stuff to defend, we just need to survive! Only really 1 option vs all-ins … build stuff and survive!
No 3rd base = sign of aggression Ebays = sign of greed Lots of addons = signs of greed
What if ALL signs of greed? Invest everything into units and try to kill him soon! Punish his short-term lack of units OR invest even more into economy, and be EVEN greedier than he is to get ahead in the longer game! Taking advantage of his inability to punish you.
2xgreed, 1x aggression.
^Overall → This guy is playing more for the later stages than trying to kill me right now. Continue as normal. No strict reaction.
^Don’t need such fine degrees of reactions, your STANDARD PLAY should be pretty well set up for all the middle of the road stuff!
Stage 3 - Understanding exactly how your opponents races work, being familiar with the build-orders and knowing all of the timings
VR EXAMPLE - a 1-base massing of VR is very diff to 3-base massing VR Vs one it’s just get up the response to hold on, he’s got no economy, this is a rush! Just 1.5 base drones and things that shoot up! But vs a 3-base VR there’s WAY more of them, and more flexibility to transition into other units. Suddenly they could add storm very easily to counter your marines or hydras, you might need to invest in higher tech units like liberators, infestors, vipers or static defence.
Good build for aggressive maps The fast carapace makes roaches incredibly efficient vs marines, and lings able to survive a tank blast. Terran will scout the lack of a 3rd and be afraid of an all-in and might over-react It crushes Terran aggression People are having a very tough timing scouting zerg thoroughly, and instead count on a few pokes to check 3rd base timing, as well as a few timings or hard pressures to show what the zerg’s up to. Makes it really hard to verify how they should react.
RUN THROUGH THE OPENING
17 pool 17 hatch 18 1:12-1:15 gas Straight to 3 queens 46 - evo chamber (just before saturation) → carapace 48 - roach warren (just after 2-base mineral saturation) 3:40 - 2xgas ~48 supply 4th queen @RW - 4-8 roaches for safety ~4:30 Lair ~60-75 3rd base (When you have money for it without pausing your production much.
Stay single evo all game - RAVE ABOUT THIS Add 4th gas Steadily drone 3rd, even before it’s up start droning it Infestation→ Hive → Ultra cavern
Vs tankivac opening adjustment After carapace starts, begin overlord speed and extra queen production Use a 3-queen overlord drop to defend the tankivac Just use some speedlings as extra support rather than roaches Go drop 8 lings in their main since you’ve got ovie speed!
Infestors or bane drops?
You don’t have gas for both Choose if you prefer fungal to combo with your bile, or bane drops to put pressure back on and pull your opponent’s attention home
Still is played out as a Hive rush heading for ultras, but get’s there in a very different way.
LOAD REPLAY VS JOSH GOING ULTRA/Hive
Show snippet of VoD showing bane drops from losira
NP ejozl even if it's SLIGHTLY out of the rulings that's ok, generally stick to em but if you accidentally break them and the games still entertaining it's still got a good shot!
It was really useful to see how to micro correctly and not correctly vs the hellbat+marine push, and how big difference it made! I already re-watched those two defenses a few time on youtube. :D
Zest is where the build may have originated from, and he does it damned well:
Benchmark: 7:30 - 8 sentries, 10 stalkers, 8 zealots (lots of lings so +1 zealots rock)
Oracle Double oracle 4-6 adept timing Robo, twilight + forge Stalker-Sentry ~7:30 stalker sentry timing HIT BEFORE LURKERS! Force ravagers Deny 4th base Pick off units 2nd robo + immortal production Option to go charge, archon, OR disruptor
9:40 - Your aim is to stay on the map and keep on controlling chokes etc. Lurkers can’t push into an army well as they take time to burrow, so you can snipe them off You can delay a push until you have your counter up This game no delay! Lurkers get in a great spot - especially for this map On SEJONG you might want to just yolo their back rocks to threaten and keep them back, as the angles are so awkward to defend. You can buy a lot of time. It’s just a bit dangerous if you get surrounded/flanked by lurkers
Potential counters
Drop the toss at 6:30-7:00 with some small ling/roach squads to buy valuable time Good creep spread Engage far out to waste FF Need 4-5 ravagers to break FF Try to avoid massing ravagers - too useless later on in the game
Basetrade
13:00 - great retreat by showtime abandoning the 4th and going for huge counters Maybe disruptors would have avoided this situation being front on However this map is so good for multiprong aggression - disruptors are very hard to control in those situations Real issue was getting pushed so far back into bad spots and THEN going for the big counterattacks - getting those started earlier would have changed everything
> If you feel like I say something that's not correct, challenge me on it!
You have mentioned in your videos you don't always like getting upgrades. E.g. for roaches in ZvZ (episode 2 I think). I am not sure this is good advice for the majority of players for the 3 following reasons:
- Lower players (I'd say easily up to diamond) often float the minerals and gas that is required for the upgrade. It's just as ridiculous not getting the upgrade as witnessing a player cancelling a structure to build another one (just like the pros, wow!) when he has enough resources to let the first one finish AND build the second one.
- Even if you spend your resources perfectly, the first upgrade costs about as much as one ravager or one muta. You advocate not getting the upgrade but carelessly throw away roaches for a distraction and lose mutas due to bad micro (as we all do). Keep in mind that upgrades are a very apm-friendly way to get an advantage (it only takes 2 clicks). Having suboptimal micro indicates apm is a limiting factor for you = upgrades help you
- it is rather easy to calculate the point where an upgrade is worth it by looking at how many units profit from it. Obviously in a 30 roaches vs 30 roaches battle the +1 attack roaches will dish out an additional 30 damage per attack turn. That is more or less the equivalent of 2 roaches. Now the argument that you can delay the upgrading until you have a large army does not really hold because you will then behind compared to the enemy army. So by the time upgrades actually matter you will have +1 vs his +2. Your argument that you won't need the upgrade because you will transition to mutas does not hold neither, because you easily had more than 30 roaches
Yeah, PiG has been busy with casting, he was at IEM Shanghai last week, DH Valencia and the SC2 community summit two weeks before that. I'm sure he'll get back to the dailies once he has more time.
On July 29 2016 23:55 imp42 wrote: Hey PiG, nice work!
> If you feel like I say something that's not correct, challenge me on it!
You have mentioned in your videos you don't always like getting upgrades. E.g. for roaches in ZvZ (episode 2 I think). I am not sure this is good advice for the majority of players for the 3 following reasons:
- Lower players (I'd say easily up to diamond) often float the minerals and gas that is required for the upgrade. It's just as ridiculous not getting the upgrade as witnessing a player cancelling a structure to build another one (just like the pros, wow!) when he has enough resources to let the first one finish AND build the second one.
- Even if you spend your resources perfectly, the first upgrade costs about as much as one ravager or one muta. You advocate not getting the upgrade but carelessly throw away roaches for a distraction and lose mutas due to bad micro (as we all do). Keep in mind that upgrades are a very apm-friendly way to get an advantage (it only takes 2 clicks). Having suboptimal micro indicates apm is a limiting factor for you = upgrades help you
- it is rather easy to calculate the point where an upgrade is worth it by looking at how many units profit from it. Obviously in a 30 roaches vs 30 roaches battle the +1 attack roaches will dish out an additional 30 damage per attack turn. That is more or less the equivalent of 2 roaches. Now the argument that you can delay the upgrading until you have a large army does not really hold because you will then behind compared to the enemy army. So by the time upgrades actually matter you will have +1 vs his +2. Your argument that you won't need the upgrade because you will transition to mutas does not hold neither, because you easily had more than 30 roaches
just my 2 (3) cents ok
Yep I always welcome criticism and debate. I'm a bit rushed right now but here's a quick response, will return later with more.
Upgrades are always situational. I often abdicate not RUSHING upgrades, especially double upgrades because far too many players try to do too much at once, too early in the game so it's not a safe way to progress.
Likewise if you're going for a timing attack like the roach style ZvZ in ep #2 going for upgrades doesn't make a lot of sense. You definitely can choose to add an evo after your push but it's not going to kick in for a long time and so it doesn't mesh with my personal preference of swapping into mutas. In the prion replay I forget my spire which is why it's ridiculously late.
You have to remember that you want to be direct and focused in your play - just because a player is a bit poor at spending their money doesn't mean they should just get an evo chamber to help spend money every game. If you're going for a big attack that contributes nothing to the attack and drains resources WAY before it actually kicks in. A player should be focusing on executing that all-in better. It's not hard to spend your money when being aggressive.
That's the other thing you have to take into account. Upgrades are an expenditure that takes a huge time to kick in. it's not just the cost of an evo chamber an upgrade - it's that cost several minutes before it has ANY effect on the game. So whilst with a standard macro play you always want to get upgrades, with all-in and very aggressive plays you usually want to delay those so you can hit as hard as possible. Ofc if I wanted to stay on roach/hydra/lurker in that prion game I could go for the delayed upgrades after the early pushes, but if you're going to swap into mutas it's questionable whether it's worth it - and so is very situational.
Upgrade investment is never simple. It's something that always has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. The few blanket statements I throw out usually are:
Only invest in upgrades when you're playing for a later stage of the game.
Stop taking double upgrades at 4:30 or earlier whilst teching at the same time! Delay them till after 5:00. The Exception is when you have full information of a very passive opposing build
Don't invest in late upgrades after doing an attack unless you plan to stay on that composition for a long time. Example: no point going into roach upgrades if you plan to swap into mutas quite fast
On August 03 2016 00:25 Vedeynevin wrote: Is this series still happening?
Show tomorrow on uThermal's 3-rax reaper that smashed Snute/Elazer at Shanghai! Lots of travel this past month so not too many shows but should be back in full swing this whole month.
Alternate defence: <-- defending with queen/ling/spine ^Probably doesn’t work on some maps/or vs the very best pros. Not sure if it works vs the proxy
Apotheosis
Immediate scv crosses the map No scv production 14seconds - 2nd scv crosses (this is a very long rush map) 16s - add 1 scv Barracks + gas asp @150 minerals 2nd barracks Add 2 scvs @100% rax - 3rd rax + reaper 2nd gas NO ORBITAL @100% 2nd rax - scv goes to build bunker Total of 15 scvs
Micro: Always aim to lose 0 reapers Focus fire as much as possible Grenades to zone Also to punish retreating units Let some units come forward and knock back the other ones Knock queens/roaches off creep so you can snipe them Rotate to abuse the ramp Whenever they’re forced to engage on that ramp you can abuse them
Reaction: Perfect early response from Snute Immediate roach warren Lings dance back and forth on creep to buy time Dodge bombs
Later response messed up Tanked too many bombs No need to chase the reapers off creep just have to keep buying time and dodging bombs Vs this super fast proxy version it’s ok to build a spine or two to help support if you’re gas starved. Extra queens is ok too. Once you start losing units it can spiral very fast
Frozen temple free win!
Now the non-proxy version vs Elazer/violet
Replay vs violet galactic process
Standard barracks gas 17 2nd rax 18 3rd rax 20 2nd gas Orbital after 2nd reaper starts Just 1 more scv produced after orbital until CC goes down this game - but often adds 1-2 more during all this.
The extra economy from the constant scv production at the start makes a huge difference.
~4:00/12 reapers - tech lab + factory + 2xreactors Straight into starport for double medivac marine stim pressure 5:20/57 supply - 2xebay 6:00/70 supply - 3rd gas 85 supply/7:00/as you push out - 3rd CC Steadily add armoury, 2xrax, and then 3xrax as you have the money
Hit with stim medivacs to keep up pressure and multiprong with the reapers for potentially devastating damage
Response:
Elazer builds too many lings, interrupting his drones too much Doesn’t drone after them either - sitting on 22 drones for wayyyyy 2 long - should have saturated his natural fully before roaches.
Most of this show was planned in my head so not many notes.
Prism Counterattack PvT - shutting down aggression and keeping Terran on the backfoot
This is a very specific response to gas-first pressure expands where the Terran usually hits a very sharp pressure at 4:00, sometimes from 2 directions whilst expanding behind it. Due to the fast factory + starport, unit production (rather than infrastructure) and fast expand - the Terran will struggle very hard if you 1) Shut down his pressure and 2) counter-attack with a warp prism immediately.
Not an all-in, but you can choose to all-in off it and it’s very hard to stop.
Even just as a middling pressure you can always find some damage, put on huge pressure and pin the Terran back for a long time whilst you head for a slightly delayed macro transition.
2 parts
Part 1 - defending whatever comes your way
Shutting down fast 4:00 2-pronged attacks/widow mine drops
Drogo stopping 1-base allin on frozen temple No natural Adds immortal - kinda special for this push, but great vs any prolonged 1-base play
Showtimes first replay vs Masa defending early pressure cleanly -
Part 2 - Counter-pressuring and controlling the pace of the game
Don't want to give out reps on this one since it's from subbing to Basetrade, but you can watch the full series on their Youtube soon: https://www.youtube.com/user/MapControlCO
PiG, could you make a summary video of the current situation for zerg in LoTV? Basic builds, tips and tricks? As a returning player, I think that would be awesome!
You should also make it for the other races of course, but let's do the most important one first :p
Overview of the build Default build is great vs 2-1-1 and the other standard aggressive Terran pressures Optimised to defend with JUST mineral units - queens and lings whilst getting tech/upgrades off JUST 1-gas. Allows fast 4th/5th bases for larva Ovie speed every game so very solid and safe as well
Threat of all-in option makes it hard for Terran to focus on his pressure. Ling-bane drops allow the potential to do damage/make uncomfortable Potential to damage a greedier opening Lots of queen-drop, ling-bane drop/all-in options to kill a greedy player
HUGE focus on creep-spread whilst pressures/drops/counters keep the Terran back.
Unlimited counter-attack and pressure angles
Embraces the APM and focus war of ZvT Rather than focusing inwardly - True focuses on making it very hard for the Terran to control the flow of the game and meet his goals Counters, threatening and drops to PULL the attention of the Terran away from stopping creep and maneuvering drops. Stop Terran’s perfect aggression and drops by FORCING their APM elsewhere Can force even an incredibly player like Polt to look a little flimsy. Indeed most of True’s opponents looked weak against his decisive play. But especially in ZvT he took a matchup where all zergs are just focusing on the perfect defensive game and made his own style of aggressive play work
Would this work vs a stronger player? This is the big question. If a player of Maru or TY’s level were to face this, how would he fare? Would he simply block all of the distractions, start to hunt down counters and have the multi-tasking to keep meeting his goals in the midst of the chaos? (good macro, deny creep, micro pressure/attacks well) Or is True’s style capable of working even vs a better opponent? Do you need to be as good as the Terran mechanically? Impossible to judge - but fascinating to think upon - and I certainly hope we get to see him matched with a very strong Korean Terran at Blizzcon!
Safe vs all-ins - Gettysburg vs hellbat + liberator push (heromarine Can even punish a 2-1-1 - gettysburg vs POLT Can punish in really wonky ways - queen drop counter-attack SEJONG vs Polt
HUGE focus on creep-spread whilst pressures/drops/counters keep the Terran back.
Embraces the APM and focus war of ZvT Rather than focusing inwardly - True focuses on making it very hard for the Terran to control the flow of the game and meet his goals Counters, threatening and drops to PULL the attention of the Terran away from stopping creep and maneuvering drops. Stop Terran’s perfect aggression and drops by FORCING their APM elsewhere Can force even an incredibly player like Polt to look a little flimsy. Indeed most of True’s opponents looked weak against his decisive play. But especially in ZvT he took a matchup where all zergs are just focusing on the perfect defensive game and made his own style of aggressive play work
Would this work vs a stronger player? This is the big question. If a player of Maru or TY’s level were to face this, how would he fare? Would he simply block all of the distractions, start to hunt down counters and have the multi-tasking to keep meeting his goals in the midst of the chaos? (good macro, deny creep, micro pressure/attacks well) Or is True’s style capable of working even vs a better opponent? Do you need to be as good as the Terran mechanically? Impossible to judge - but fascinating to think upon - and I certainly hope we get to see him matched with a very strong Korean Terran at Blizzcon!
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the effort you put into these dailies. I find them super informative, helpful, and entertaining! The "Fundamentals of Starcraft" video alone has greatly enhanced my play and made the game so much easier!
Cancel ling speed into ovie speed 6 queen Mass lingbane - drops + flank crushes blink sentry timing Counter drops wreck econ at same time
Frozen Temple vs Welmu Hatch block success
14 Hatch first into 15 hatch block vs gate-gas-nexus Gas + pool behind it 14 lings to stop the 2-gate pressure 3rd hatch, 2nd gas and roach warren Big roach/ravager ling all-in Vs DTS though Luckily adepts throw themselves away Manages to snipe 3rd nexus with counterattack and keep 3rd alive Good handling by True, poor handling by Welmu to not have DTs there etc
14 hatch! Denying the chance to block the hatchery + gets you the money for the hatch block just before the nexus goes down
Key points: Decent sized ling pressure to kill pylons/deny or delay 3rd Big roach-ravager-ling or lingbane timings to kill 3rd base HARD SPOT? Always opts for the counterattack and not even enough defence (WEMLMU FROST) Cancels on ling speed - metagaming - assuming the protoss players will respect the threat and not go for an attack until the later 4:40+ timing.
Hatch Block from P perspective Forces Protoss to change their build - P builds are super tightly refined to be safe vs everything. If you throw them off they might miss-calculate trying to get back on track and expose themselves (losing 3rd base) The 8 adept timing hits late - so welmu doesn’t spot the lack of drones on the 3rd, instead he only sees the army already halfway across the map and accidentally shades into it. Makes it hard for Protoss to scout what they’re up against (Welmu not seeing roach-ling counter and losing his 3rd) Hard to recognise where True should be at a certain point and has to play more fluidly
On August 19 2016 05:49 AlphaPancake wrote: I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the effort you put into these dailies. I find them super informative, helpful, and entertaining! The "Fundamentals of Starcraft" video alone has greatly enhanced my play and made the game so much easier!
Thanks mate! I'm still enjoying it so it should be going for a long time!
Hey Pig, a friend of mine (Diamond) want to improve his mechanics (especally macro, day9 Golden Circle). What tool do you suggest to improve mechanics? 2. What do you suggest to learn how to keep a calm head in case of cheeses/aggression
The most important thing to progress - is to identify the earliest mistakes in games - these have the biggest impact as they slow down your buildup. Messing up harass and missing out on a few worker kills is HUGE if your opponent only has 20 workers. But later when there’s 60-70 workers, a few scvs is a drop in the ocean.
Always look for those points where things go wrong early on. That’s why we always tend to ignore the big engages start off examining our own macro instead and look at later on fights last.
Macro
Why Macro is important Have more stuff faster than your opponent Spending money Constant worker production (Terran or Protoss) Up to 3-bases The 4xspeed production check Zerg - units tab - watch for larva build-ups. Whenever the larva sits up there for a bit, that’s mis-macro Terran - Watch the production tab keeping in mind how many units should be built AT THAT point of the game Protoss check chronoboost Something even pros are sloppy with remembering to move around in LoTV. 15% might not be massive, but worth keeping an eye on. As a beginner - like Terran check you’re constantly producing out of your facilities As you progress to plat and above you start to play very much based on the situation in game as Protoss and do more “POWERING” Powering is where you skip unit production temporarily to get more tech, upgrades and production structures to EXPLODE into more stuff later on. Don’t do this at low level because you won’t have the game knowledge to know when it’s safe to skip unit production like this!
Benchmarking and checking your gameplan
Choose the most important parts of your game to check on The game can go lots of different ways but a decent one is to just say 66 drones/3-base saturation at 6:30 in a passive game. Maybe 7:00 for Protoss and 60 scvs/7:00 for Terran.
ENGAGES When you finally get to wanting to examine these more and more Look for where the fights went wrong early on Bad positioning Chance to leverage advantage earlier on
Major Sejong - Lots of attack and air angles to come in from - great banshee map
Gas-fir12st 17 2nd gas Factory → Reaper ASAP Factory 2nd gas 2:30 - 25 natural CC Tech lab on fact Starport Medivac + tank Swap into banshees Factory adds another tech lab then more tanks 5:00/56 supply - 3rd CC on location While pressuring with marine tankivac 5:30/65 supply - 3rd + 4th gases 2nd + 3rd barracks 2xebays More barracks steadily up to 8
Barracks Reaper Marine Reactor
Factory Tech lab Tank Swaps off Tech lab
Starport Medivac Swap onto tech lab Banshee + cloak 2nd banshee 4 total banshees (stop if raven or not getting damage) Swap onto reactor and begin medivac production
Heromarine
RFE 1 marine into reactor
Frost and Frozen Temple - nice cliffs to use
Frozen - banshee bait to cyclone
Both
4 viking + raven(optional) + 2 tankydank pressure Chance for massive damage Makes them super uncomfortable Free non-committal damage and scouting
On August 22 2016 07:05 Granas1988 wrote: Hey Pig, a friend of mine (Diamond) want to improve his mechanics (especally macro, day9 Golden Circle). What tool do you suggest to improve mechanics? 2. What do you suggest to learn how to keep a calm head in case of cheeses/aggression
1. - Just understanding all the proper techniques and making sure you use them properly as per: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEv2pw94WQ - I never used any specific practice tool for mechanics other than practicing builds in empty custom games and working on macro, or hopping into unit tester in Arcade to practice micro and unit interactions
2. - Generally just focus on analysing and understanding your response and writing down a list of the exact order of how to respond next time. Over time this develops into rules you can apply even to somewhat unfamiliar cheeses and hopefully you keep a cool head during them. It's a given that sometimes you will derp and freak out a bit vs cheese or strange aggression - but with experience and calm problem solving you get better at it!
(Master league officilly but no Master mmr atm^^) Ok for me, ZvT i usally go for Trues mass queen fast upgrade style, in the specific replay I fighted off creep, I am pretty used to hold the first push from the 2-1-1 but then the Drop finds his damage with his follow upmedivacs or the Drops unloads somewhere i dont see, in this specific Game i build like 10 more Drones then i should agaisnt the second push, but beeing scared of the 2-1-1 when i held the first wave is a maijor problem for me, even if i dont take to much damage the thread really makes me uncomfterbil in ZvT: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6777342
I'm in Dubai at the moment casting WESG so will be posting the 3 parts of this ICYFAR (epic FFA and high level mech TvP) as well as a mini daily tutorial on a TvP Cheese for Daily #50
On August 24 2016 20:24 DERASTAT wrote: (Master league officilly but no Master mmr atm^^) Ok for me, ZvT i usally go for Trues mass queen fast upgrade style, in the specific replay I fighted off creep, I am pretty used to hold the first push from the 2-1-1 but then the Drop finds his damage with his follow upmedivacs or the Drops unloads somewhere i dont see, in this specific Game i build like 10 more Drones then i should agaisnt the second push, but beeing scared of the 2-1-1 when i held the first wave is a maijor problem for me, even if i dont take to much damage the thread really makes me uncomfterbil in ZvT: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6777342
I don't have time to watch your replay, however it sounds like you just didn't have your units in the right position and your overlords spread around your bases properly if you're taking damage from following drops. Good creep spread, good ovie coverage and scouting with your lings to find the first attack will always allow you to prepare.
To be super safe you can stop at just 40 drones (no drones on 3rd base), make 40 lings and go and find the drop immediately and don't even let it unload. The moment you hit 40 lings you start droning hard behind it even if the fighting hasn't started yet. This allows you to dictate the pace of the game and take the tempo away from the Terran. Slightly less efficient but much easier to execute and not make mistakes. Even pros will do this sometimes so it's very valid.
Oops forgot to post the last few parts and my mini-ep here on TL, here goes a whole lot at once:
On August 31 2016 11:02 AssyrianKing wrote: Hey guys, I was just wondering, where does the Australian/SEA scene actively talk/chat. sc2sea is pretty dead
sc2sea, SC2Online and generally just within clans and as a part of the greater scene. Most people prefer to socialise with the broader scene rather than just locally these days. Certain Twitch-chats will be more popular with aussies - Deth for instance is a good one.
On August 31 2016 11:02 AssyrianKing wrote: Hey guys, I was just wondering, where does the Australian/SEA scene actively talk/chat. sc2sea is pretty dead
sc2sea, SC2Online and generally just within clans and as a part of the greater scene. Most people prefer to socialise with the broader scene rather than just locally these days. Certain Twitch-chats will be more popular with aussies - Deth for instance is a good one.
2 main paths of thought - we’ll look at which situations each one is best
The standard approach:
Always drop mules on the closer patches so they mine faster The closer patches have more minerals - so this way you don’t deplete your low patches and reduce the number of minerals your scvs can mine from Always drop mules on NEWEST bases also so you don’t concentrate on just some close patches This approach is basic, easy to follow and doesn’t involve many decisions. -- However at Valencia Demuslim was telling me his thoughts on an alternate approach, so big thanks to him for bringing this one to my attention:
Alternate approach: Only drop mules on the close patches in the main base Goal is to make the close/high patches run out at the same time as the far/low patches Then you can pick up your base and move it on to your 4th super early and maintain that steady rate of mining Avoid the big dips in mining that Terran normally run into as their bases run out and they struggle to afford a 4th However it costs a gap in your income to move it over there, and you lose your gases
How to do it: 2 mules on each patch + double up on them early on so 1500 -450 (2xmules) = 1050 vs the 900 far patches. Because your SCVs mine faster and double up on them earlier though it ends up being almost identical when the patches run out
Cost analysis, is it worth it? Every map is different. On average it takes about a minute to reposition that CC to the 4th base. You lose a full base of mining (mules don’t count they can drop elsewhere) as well as delay a mule or two from that orbital = One minute of mining = roughly 650 minerals and 220 gas You also have to rebuild the geysers = 150 minerals. So it’s a hiccup of 800 minerals and 220gas in order to keep your rate of mining solid at 3-full mineral lines. Definitely worth it for Terran players that like to go very high on scvs, 65-70 etc. Not as important for a Terran on just 50-60 scvs as they will have plenty of patches across 3-bases + gas even with the main half mined out Sometimes worth moving the main to the 3rd like this if an attack doesn’t outright win the game can be fantastic. Planning for this by dropping mules in this pattern with a 2-base all-in is a great way to play it. Think Taeja vs Zest
Apotheosis - Normal mineral pattern
Mule does 25 minerals per trip
Mule on close patch: 9 trips - runs out just before returning 10th trip. Total = 225 minerals. Sometimes runs out just before mines 10th trip. Mule on far patch: - 9 trips - runs out before MINING the 10th trip. Total = 225 minerals.
1895 - 2795
Dasan - reasonably normal mineral pattern for close patches - super far away far patches
Close Patch - runs out just before returning 10th trip. Far Patch - still 225 minerals, runs out just after returning 9th trip
Occasionally the mule on far patches would barely not make the last return trip. But usually it would mine the same amount as the close patches over its duration.
Frozen Temple
Super standard - 1 far patch only hit 8 trips! Bot spawn 2nd from the top/right and the equivalent on the top spawn
1238 - 1463
Galactic - weird main and natural - no reason to do this it just confuses people and makes it hard for them to be consistent
Main bases “FAR CLOSE PATCH - barely makes the return in time but does make it Regular far patches - 1 doesn’t make the return trip 1745 - 2195
Pulling mules off
Gold minerals?? Doesn’t mine any faster than blue so generally you should just let your scvs mine them out
BUILD ORDER Pylon scout Lowground Gate-gas-nexus-core standard opening Vs hatch first 19 nexus 20 core 21 2nd gas 22 pylon Probe blocks 3rd base (tried to go for it before queens) @core - Adept + WG immediately Cyber core block to delay 3rd even more - combined with adept to force 3rd to be delayed a long time Limiting the larva and disrupting zerg build
2:45 (30 supply) - Robo 2:55 - stalker (deny scouting of robo) Steadily adding more gates (total 6) 35 probes - stop probing 2-gases, full main + 13 probes on natural 4 sentries then mass adept zealot warpins You can mix in stalkers as you have the gas - good for adding dps vs roaches
Notes: 5:30 hit the enemy natural, 80 supply. Force fights immediately Get in between rallies Don’t fear creep FF ramp if possible Snipe RW if exposed
Lots of players missing the strong 2-base all-ins from hots and WoL Lots of BSGP players especially keen for 2-base builds as they struggle to hold 3rds Zerg players at lower levels being super greedy
Very different to the older styles of all-ins where you just sit back, efficiently build up and then hit one attack. To execute this super cleanly actually takes quite a bit of practice and finesse. I would say you can try it at all levels, but is probably most effective for diamond+.
Show one where he fucked up a few times quite badly GOOD GAME - FIRST CRUSH PUSHED - Should have shaded ahead to scout! Need 1 adept in your army here at least Lastly hop into the one where the adepts go crazy whilst answering questions
Build Frozen Temple VoD:
Micro: Prism lifting Prism positioning - careful vs heavy queens Prism way back if ravagers - otherwise die to bile
Just won my first game with your last episode. Allthough I wonder if it does the same effect if you just delay his third instead of make him his second base on third AND delay third. Hit his third EXACTLY at 5:30. Loved it .)
god... now i have to shower... i feel like my protoss gets dirty..
On September 02 2016 21:35 Granas1988 wrote: Just won my first game with your last episode. Allthough I wonder if it does the same effect if you just delay his third instead of make him his second base on third AND delay third. Hit his third EXACTLY at 5:30. Loved it .)
god... now i have to shower... i feel like my protoss gets dirty..
Haha that's awesome.
Yeah in the VoD Dear actually blocks the 3rd base using the exact same method - so that works fine. Both methods are great
Hey Pig wonna make a daily about the ssl final, its the first korean top level ZvZ series, and it seems like canceling speed and dont build a baneling nest and go for a gasless like wall is they go-to-build. And it looked way more stable than the 3 hatch lingbane into low eco low upgrade style, for a roach loving player
Economy: Guru’s full-swarm style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O2PioAZpJE Same sort of economy management in that lower gas-count and way higher mineral mining for near unlimited zergling production Swaps out the hydras for the more accessible and more flexible ravagers
Creep Creep makes such a big difference with this army that needs to close around the enemy to be effective. The more you control the map the more advantage you get by spreading your creep
Engagements:
Micro:
3 hotkeys All units separate
Ways of engaging: WIth heavy ling you can get a full surround, force a donut and use bile on their army If low lings, send ravagers/banes in to force a FF wall and then break it.
Why is it so good?
Hyper-mobile Finds weaknesses even when it can’t win a front on fight Find sick surrounds very suddenly Punishing If they miss a FF or don’t split quickly banes can just blow up the whole core of their army suddenly Defensively very strong Super hard to push onto creep against this army when you can’t rely on forcefields being very effective Most importantly of all can solve the “problem” of cracking a midgame Protoss in multiple ways You can engage in multiple ways as said above You can benefit from covering the map in creep and playing it a little bit slower You can explode into counter-attacks and suddenly handicap the Protoss economy You can easily set up huge flanks and surrounds with this army
How to fight this?
https://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/89637308 10:14 - fast archons Archons and storm are the core answer to the ling-bane, being incredibly cost-efficient. Good spreads of army, or fantastic forcefields and storms if you’re staying somewhat clumped up You need to secure a 4th at a good time, I’d say by 9:30 in-game. Though every game the timings are a little different Stalkers might not be the worst unit since they don’t mind tanking some bane hits, but they’re so expensive you struggle to get enough archons or HT to balance it out. They also suck vs lings on their own Adepts still cost some gas, and usually rely on grouping up to be effective as even with attack speed they deal less damage than a zealot, usually relying on range and limited surface area to be effective - doesn’t work vs bile breaking FF and banes splashing clumped adepts Zealots are super cheap so allow the biggest number of those important archons/HT - but since they charge in and automatically clump up on the banelings, only a few mixed in your main army is useful. However if you can use the zealots where the zerg army ISN’T they can suddenly be a very effective mineral dump Warp prism chargelot harass is highly effective to buy time and find efficient trades for those chargelots You can also drop more cannons to fortify your bases with excess minerals
[8:55:28 AM] PtitDrogo: One thing you need to mention [8:55:37 AM] PtitDrogo: If z grades banes for probes and canons [8:55:46 AM] PtitDrogo: You actually still keep the same gas income [8:55:52 AM] PtitDrogo: Just less minerals [8:56:01 AM] PtitDrogo: Which rly doesnt matter too much [8:56:17 AM] PtitDrogo: Mass archons and A move on 36 probes ftw
On September 11 2016 21:28 DERASTAT wrote: Hey Pig wonna make a daily about the ssl final, its the first korean top level ZvZ series, and it seems like canceling speed and dont build a baneling nest and go for a gasless like wall is they go-to-build. And it looked way more stable than the 3 hatch lingbane into low eco low upgrade style, for a roach loving player
I actually haven't caught up on watching that yet since it was on late at night whilst I was in Mexico and I flew to a LAN this past weekend also. Watching the VoDs this week, will see what stuff there is to talk about, that certainly sounds very interesting. We've rarely seen ZvZ in Korea for a long time now
Pylons in fast-warp-in range. At least one per nexus, preferably more.
Triangle around each mineral line Covers it from all the regular harass Pylon placement vs liberators
PvT Potential 2nd pylon to block reapers
PvP If you open adepts - your 3rd pylon often goes at the front of the natural
Building placement Downside of having it all clumped up behind your mineral line vs liberators/drops out of reach
PvZ TRIANGLE Not as important in PvZ because it’s rare a roach or hydra will get in your main base. Most important is the front wall Just 1 pylon covering the main mineral line from ling drop
Regular Wall-offs Protecting your pylons Every wall is different Pylons at 3rd bases
Robos have to rally out - so preferably have them outside your walloff if you build lots of immortals
Protoss
Protoss is a race of getting away with very few fighting units early and relying on the pylon overcharge as the anchor of all your early defence EVERY pylon has a purpose Triangle of pylons around your main mineral line for full overcharge coverage Wall-offs vs zerg - not vs Terran (superior ranged army) Have to memorise how your natural works on new maps. Otherwise you can end up with some pretty crappy walls! At least one pylon at each nexus that is in fast-warp-in range
PvT - Thanks Drogo!
If you open mothership core you won’t have many units early on so you need to put your first pylon blocking the reaper entry point. If it’s a wide cliff you can wall off with gateways (zest on dusk, prion and orbital - always with his first or 2nd pylon). Pylon at 3rd nexus immediately - mothership core floats over ready to defend, then once warpgate is finished we bring it back to main and nonstop warpins at the 3rd. Extra pylon in the main around this time for full coverage. Careful placement of pylons to deny liberators Line it up directly with the patch next to the gap to cover the mineral line from the exposed liberator edge. Important on dusk towers cos so little space behind mineral lines Watch out for high-ground liberator spots - you’ll need your mothership there to spot those areas
PvP Downside of walloff? Try to have FULL coverage vs adepts Try to cover it so they can’t just dart in, snipe probes and walk away unscathed. Try to make sure they’ll have to take as much damage as possible If you open adepts - your 3rd pylon often goes at the front of the natural Otherwise their stalkers can deny your natural for a long time - even though it’s a small commitment and they might just be expoing themselves.
PvZ
Pylons to block ling drops Double pylon with gap for 2 adepts next to nexus
Walling natural is always very different on every map these days
Proxies! Off the regular scouting path Away the META checking areas
Hey @PiGStarcraft, I want to discuss about something with you that is outside of the last VoD but a part of PvZ. Has was playing a in my opinion real intersting style. (Mass Oracle into carrier). It actually beats mass hydra. Is "OKAY" vs mass queens if done correctly and only has probs vs Infestor which you should be able to scout.
So here is my Idea. Oracles actually have a lot of similairy to Mutalisk. What if Protoss would play this style very similar to Zergs Muta-Ling Style (Mostly for harassment. Stop at a specific number and have a transition to Chargezealots. (and HT because of Infestor/Alternative Collosi?))
I just want to start some discussion with some brainstorming.
The PiG Daily #56 - Snute's Mass Drone Anti-Phoenix play
On September 21 2016 17:14 Granas1988 wrote: Hey @PiGStarcraft, I want to discuss about something with you that is outside of the last VoD but a part of PvZ. Has was playing a in my opinion real intersting style. (Mass Oracle into carrier). It actually beats mass hydra. Is "OKAY" vs mass queens if done correctly and only has probs vs Infestor which you should be able to scout.
So here is my Idea. Oracles actually have a lot of similairy to Mutalisk. What if Protoss would play this style very similar to Zergs Muta-Ling Style (Mostly for harassment. Stop at a specific number and have a transition to Chargezealots. (and HT because of Infestor/Alternative Collosi?))
I just want to start some discussion with some brainstorming.
Yeah it's possible. The correct response from zerg is ALWAYS infestors though so HT and chargelots actually aren't very good against it because fungal destroys chargelots and can lock down HT before they get in range to feedback. Definitely blink-disruptor, immortal-archon, or something else might work out ok though. I do love the carrier transition Has was doing, was pretty sick, but transitioning into a ground army is definitely also possible. Some games Has would go storm then tempests as his transition, that was pretty sick too
Okay. I think Blink-Disruptor "sounds" to me like it makes more sense. Because Archon-Immortal and Carrier can killed by Ling Infestor to easy afaik. So how many Stargates would you suggest? 2 like KnowMe? or 1 or 3? also what do you think is the number to stop oracles?
On September 22 2016 14:36 Granas1988 wrote: Okay. I think Blink-Disruptor "sounds" to me like it makes more sense. Because Archon-Immortal and Carrier can killed by Ling Infestor to easy afaik. So how many Stargates would you suggest? 2 like KnowMe? or 1 or 3? also what do you think is the number to stop oracles?
I'd just do it exactly like Has does except instead of fleet beacon begin your ground transition.
Carrier's are pretty epic vs infestors if you spread them out before you engage though, Has should have won the game on Frost vs Snute if he just spread those carriers out before engaging! The DPS is INSANE if the interceptors aren't all clumped and fungalled on one spot
My biggest Problem with Carrier is the building Time. The time 3-4 Carrier need to build is just too insane (even with chrono) which lead you to open for attacks because a lot of supply is misisng
On September 22 2016 17:28 Granas1988 wrote: My biggest Problem with Carrier is the building Time. The time 3-4 Carrier need to build is just too insane (even with chrono) which lead you to open for attacks because a lot of supply is misisng
You can try to build carriers if your opponent is preparing for a more an anti-ground force pushing you.
Hey PiG: I tryed the Oracle into Stalker + Disruptor Tech. Here my first feedback: Disruptor as AoE Tech take too long. I defended with mostly blink stalker. But need more testing. Have the feeling I need some tech between Oracle + Blink Stalker to defend
Scv immediately leaves base 16 rax 16 gas 17 2nd gas 20 2nd depot 1:50 factory(basically as soon as have money) Straight into tech lab Immediate proxied starport (other location) 25 depot 30/3:10 CC at natural Wait for cloak to hit with banshees 4:00-4:30 rax gets home and hops on tech lab 2xrax and then another 2xrax when you can afford them 3tech labs 2 reactors Hit 2-base bio-mine-lib timing
Barracks 2 reapers then fly home
Factory Tech lab 1-2 Cyclones (optional mag field accelerator) Swaps off tech lab and builds 1-2 addons for rax before building its own reactor
Starport vs stargate Tech lab 2 banshees + cloak Fly home Land in new corner of the map and build reactor if you have to - desperately need medivacs 4xmedivacs then libs
Starport vs Robo liberators Fly home Land in new corner of the map and build reactor if you have to - desperately need medivacs 4xmedivacs then libs
Kelazhur vs cyan Galactic Game 1
Example of mag field and liberator vs 1-base into robo. 3-base transition Also shows defending pylon rush counterattack
Mag field Libs 3rd CC transition Triple tankivac to follow up (good on galactics chokes/ledges) Starport comes all the way home
Kelazhur vs Cyan game 4 Apotheosis
Vs proxy SG Has to go engi bay to respond Starport then mag field again Starport at home though Still cloakshees
On September 23 2016 06:57 Granas1988 wrote: Hey PiG: I tryed the Oracle into Stalker + Disruptor Tech. Here my first feedback: Disruptor as AoE Tech take too long. I defended with mostly blink stalker. But need more testing. Have the feeling I need some tech between Oracle + Blink Stalker to defend
I don't really know the details of that style too much, but generally it's super hard for them to actually push you with enough anti-air in time because your oracle count is so insane. Probably pretty map dependant on which maps queens can get across and denying creep might help a lot to delay. Masses of cannons and overcharge can defend a lot of armies too. If you watch the way Has does it he gets 4-bases and heappss of cannons so it's very hard for zerg to push into him.
Explaining some stuff for beginners Also some much more advanced stuff
Points
Galactic Process vs Irushpeople 11:23 Start at 9:30
Have a plan before you go in Hit main with drop, banshee into 3rd and just hold position both of them and FULL focus on frontal micro Strong use of queing up Also can que to drop Can que hold position Meanwhile opponent has no time to mentally prepare himself. He has only a few seconds to correctly assess the situation and figure out where to prioritise Often they will realise too late and make several blunders - even at high levels.
Sending in the less important prongs first Distracts Pulls attention away Allows your most powerful prong to have the most value
Not actually actively controlling all 3 Timing things out to hit at the same time Hold position micro A-move and forget about them
Focusing on the most important part Choose to focus on your main army over microing a drop 10:20 - Once main army is mostly dead I have nothing left to micro - I check my drop and banshee are doing their job. With say a roach-hydra army there really isn’t much to micro so I would look away from this army as soon as my concave is set up
When to just forget about units When they are below the line where it’s worth your APM There’s no exact measure. If your opponent isn’t responding then focus-firing even just 2 marines on workers can kill a whole mineral line But 90% of the time it’s not worth microing those 2 marines and best just to a-move them
Last thing - unit tester show them you can que up individual unit drops in different locations. Rare but something I occasionally do with widow mine drops and look back to burrow them all at once later
For new daily: I asked a question in twitter you can also ask for aggression what do you suggest for the other races to split and how many units to split.
Frost Game also get to see the same timing attacks
4-adept opening vs 2-adept, 2 -stalker vs pure stalker expands
Fast robo if vsing stalker pressure SG vs faster expo 45-55 probe meta (frost) Steadily moving to more macro games
Micro:
In fights with micro. Immortals focus immortals once shields are down (if they can reach them) then stalkers. Adepts focus other adepts (though generally automatically happens) Archons focus the clumped adepts wherever possiblle concave and guardian shield is very important Don’t shade on top vs archons, won’t end well cos splash Upgrades very important, +1 is great for archons, +2 is super key in adept vs adept
Frozen Temple Game
Aren’t disruptors amazing vs these slow, clumpy adept armies?
Yes they’re amazing and making a comeback! However because they’re so expensive and you need a big enough army to support them, you only get them slower “when you feel safe” is the general rule OR As a desperate comeback measure when behind Big potential to turn games around with disruptor shots
For new daily: I asked a question in twitter you can also ask for aggression what do you suggest for the other races to split and how many units to split.
This is deserving of it's own daily. It's highly situational, but definitely a topic I'll cover in detail in the near future.
"This is deserving of it's own daily. It's highly situational, but definitely a topic I'll cover in detail in the near future." We dont want to get you out of content, do we?
About PvP Game 1: I wonder what would have happened of Cyan would have went for Phoenix instead of Oracles. In this case he would be ahead in Phoenixwar.
On your ling bane ravager video you talked about how protoss can/should play to defend against it.
My question how do you identify this is even coming. Often I find from about 3min - 6mins you are basically playing blind. You have already elected your tech path i.e. glaives or robo or stargate and usually if I do an adept pressure it too late to change a tech path if say I scout a spire.
Do you have and secrets you can share regarding tells? e.g. I think you mentioned the style tends to go for 1 evo chamber but anything else?
On September 28 2016 09:00 Dracover wrote: Hi Pig,
On your ling bane ravager video you talked about how protoss can/should play to defend against it.
My question how do you identify this is even coming. Often I find from about 3min - 6mins you are basically playing blind. You have already elected your tech path i.e. glaives or robo or stargate and usually if I do an adept pressure it too late to change a tech path if say I scout a spire.
Do you have and secrets you can share regarding tells? e.g. I think you mentioned the style tends to go for 1 evo chamber but anything else?
Hallucinate is pretty awesome. My favourite build in PvZ is basically the opening neeb bopped Rogue with yesterday on Frost. A really well refined, crisp 4:30 6-7 adept pressure will often just give you a sick lead right through to top gm level. I like to go double robo behind it and after the first 6-9 adepts I make sentries at home. As soon as I have energy I make a hallucinated phenix and check what their follow-up is. I like to have my "default" next push to be a 3-5 immortal, 1 obs, 1 prism + 4-8 sentry and heavy blink push to win the game.
However I can adjust. If I see lurker play I can add disruptor tech and once lurkers are morphed I can back off and play it a bit slower.
If I see mutas I can drop cannons and 2-stargates for phenix, and my blink + stalkers are already great vs that.
If it's ravager-ling-bane, or even just pure ling-bane I can still use blink if I want, but most important is getting templar archives asap and adding either storm, archons or both into my army. Maybe adding charge to dump minerals and going heavier on cannons to also spend minerals. That being said sometimes I forget to scout and just kill the ravager ling-bane player wth my stalker sentry immo push... but that's more them being way behind/playing bad than anything else.
Normal 2-1-1 Factory swaps onto reactored barracks That barracks swaps ohto the starport reactor First drop still has 16 marines Armoury goes down as you move across the map Straight into combat shields 85/5:30 - 3rd CC 5:50 timing with 4 hellbats
No mothership core A bit risky Very important to scout very well for all-ins with the adept If you see them mining gas/not many drones still you might want to start mothership core asap and take other safety precautions If you see a healthy drone count then continue as normal
I used to a slightly less efficient version with the mothership core always after the twilight started, and only 2-3 adepts built out of the gates. Still would often just get way ahead off it. The power of this version is even more insane though.
Just had one question (wish I am available to watch these live to ask my questions) what do you recommend if zerg instead uses his lings to try to cancel your third rather than defend?
I've had a few instances where the zerg waits for the move out and attacks your third. Since you have just warped in, I find my choices are come back to defend, or keep going. If I don't defend I'm essentially trading a cancelled nexus for hopefully some drones. I do see that the zerg tend to end up with a lot of lings because they've essentially have 12 lings trying to cancel the third and more lings or roaches back at home to stop your 7 adepts.
How often do you comeback from this message? Let alone when it's 1v4!? Watch this hero try to comeback after all 3 of his team-mates throw in the towel! Sickest starting game in today's "Epic Comebacks" ICYFAR!
^Enjoy my social media clickbait game? :D
On October 05 2016 09:52 Dracover wrote: Hi Pig
Another great daily.
Just had one question (wish I am available to watch these live to ask my questions) what do you recommend if zerg instead uses his lings to try to cancel your third rather than defend?
I've had a few instances where the zerg waits for the move out and attacks your third. Since you have just warped in, I find my choices are come back to defend, or keep going. If I don't defend I'm essentially trading a cancelled nexus for hopefully some drones. I do see that the zerg tend to end up with a lot of lings because they've essentially have 12 lings trying to cancel the third and more lings or roaches back at home to stop your 7 adepts.
Is this worth the trade?
This is why the pylon should be already up and finished and ready to overcharge with a regular version which is why many zergs won't try this. However that can definitely work against this version as the mothership only starts as the adepts move out. It's always worth trying to do this with even a few lings, and forces protoss players to adjust by checking for those lings before they move out. If you've already moved out and won't save the nexus then it's best to just keep going across the map and warp in adepts at home and instantly retake the 3rd. It's very hard for Zerg to defend normally, let alone if he's committed some lings to the other side of the map, so you should be able to do some nice damage. It's just very taxing on your multitasking if they do it right.
Hey PiG, could you perhaps do an episode on TY's "It's bio! No wait, it's actually mech!" TvZ builds from KeSPA Cup? I'd like to use them on ladder every now and then but so far I haven't really been successful. And also I was wondering if he would have lost had TRUE gone for broodlords on New Gettysburg. Would be awesome if you could look into that.
Most important part of RTS games “the choice, judgement, or control of when something should be done.”
The most important thing that allows you to have good timing in Starcraft is recognising when you are strong and when you are weak.
Originates from the idea of "A window in time" where there is a meaningful advantage http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/109454816450/what-is-a-timing The easiest way to understand this concept is through the idea of a timing attack. A window where you can attack with a specific advantage - E.G. an upgrade ahead. A key upgrade finishes like +1 for zealots vs lings so 33% more effective. E.G. hitting before a new expansion has time to pay off, E.G. hitting just before opponent gets a lurker den, psi storm tech or ghosts in TvP.
6-pool just for eye-candy:
However the whole idea of timing is integral to everything in Starcraft. When you first start out playing you get early pool rushed. Even though you're making roaches, marines or zealots which are stronger units than slow zerglings, you only have 1 when they arrive and you get overwhelmed and die. This is when you unwittingly come across the idea of timing. The guy with the FASTER army beats the guy with the better army.
3:30 - adepts staying to harass right up until ling speed finishes - knows he can pressure right up until his opponents strength kicks in. 5:40 - checking for ground assault - low gates, no big power units like immortals out yet. This is a moment where he recognises he is weak if zerg just masses units and attacks. He will need to know its coming so he can positon and prepare
6:45 - scouts hydras, goes blink + disruptors to counter both options - recognises the window where hydra will be strong. No response against the immediate threat - because hydras are easily held with just ff and overcharge. But gears up HARD for the lurker or speedbane assault which could follow.
10:00 - recognises his strength and pushes out on the map, looking for a fight, looking to clear creep and establish map presence Cannons ready for the counterattacks
12:00 - realises that the hive tech is kicking in soon so he doesn’t pull home to defend. He knows if he does that then he will struggle vs the hive tech when it kicks in. He also knows that his main army hasn’t really lost size and is still very strong. So now is
1) a great time to hit before hydra jumps up in strength. 2) the last moment to use his army at its strong point. 3) He hasn’t been preparing a tech transition and has only just started mining his 4th. So he HAS to get more done RIGHT NOW in this window of time.
I want these games to be examples of the many points where timing matters, and how timing as our analytical focus helps us understand strategy far better than things which just scratch the surface like composition or positioning. Overarching
If you run into a problem in Starcraft. Say you always die to mutalisks as protoss. Ask yourself not just “should I build phoenix every game?” But actually break down the games where you lose to mutas and think about it in terms of WHEN mutas become a threat. Maybe you can build 2-star phenix reactively if you see a spire. Maybe you find as long as you have 5 phoenix when the mutas pop, you can defend and stabilise just fine. Maybe you find you can always just kill them with blink just before or as the mutas pop! In different situations blink might not work to defend because it’s so hard to defend 4 bases with the stalkers constantly having to blink up and down cliffs. However now it works all of a sudden.
Zest vs Solar solves mutas by hitting right before they become strong (when they hit the protoss mineral lines)
This sort of thinking is where solid play was derived. Understanding when things become a threat, and how late you can delay your response. Understanding when you’re strong and can push, and likewise when your opponent is strong, and you must defend.
At a low level it’s recognising how to stay safe in the simplest terms. Spore/turret/obs timing to be generally safe. Not 2:00 into the game! Counting your opponents bases and recognising that if they aren’t expanding at the same rate as you, you have to build lots of defence soon to survive. You’re learning to recognise that you’re investing into a later stage of the game so you’re weak right now while you wait for it to kick in You’re also learning to recognise when your opponent is only investing in their power right now Roughly how long those periods last before it shifts the other way
As you progress in skill you start to discern more and more things about the game state. You learn to recognise what is strong compositionally. What upgrades suddenly tilt the scales. You learn how different levels of economy affect power at different moments in the game.
On October 05 2016 19:41 Elentos wrote: Hey PiG, could you perhaps do an episode on TY's "It's bio! No wait, it's actually mech!" TvZ builds from KeSPA Cup? I'd like to use them on ladder every now and then but so far I haven't really been successful. And also I was wondering if he would have lost had TRUE gone for broodlords on New Gettysburg. Would be awesome if you could look into that.
Awesome suggestion, I'm still catching up on KeSPA Cup VoDs so I really want to try out some of the styles there and get some replays of the same sort of stuff to show whilst I talk about it.
I won’t be able to cover every single term. We use a lot of jargon and slang but once you understand all the terms used here I hope you’ll find it much easier to understand and learn from commentary and strategy discussions throughout the community.
Expansion terms Natural - expansion 2nd Always same resources per base Except gold 6 mineral patches Back Natural http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/File:Dusk_Towers.jpg Main ramp is always very tight and easy to defend On other maps the natural is much more exposed as it doesn’t have that tight choke 3rd, 4th, 5th Refers to where the player chooses to take the base Different options
FE - “Fast Expand” 3CC - which means you go for a very fast 3rd command centre - usually after just 1 barracks, 1 factory, 1 starport. Or occasionally off just one barracks. Zerg - 3 hatch before pool. The pool is the most important defensive structure so delaying that until after planting 3-bases is the most economic zerg opening.
Micro/Macro
8:00 - Neebs view - 8:30 4th base
Macro large-scale; overall. It’s about the big picture Essentially - getting a lot of money fast and spending it well = good macro
Tenents of good macro: Always build workers nonstop until you have a strong economy Expand quickly, and frequently. Keep your money low You need to spend your money to get maximum use out of it Maximum time where upgrades give an advantage Maximum time where you have the strongest possible army to both defend and attack. Playing “a macro game” is focusing on these parts, the economy buildup and teching upwards. Playing for the later stages of the game when managing all these tasks has more time to pay off.
Usually takes priority over micro most of the game.
APM - Actions per minute. How much stuff you can get done. Nada demonstration
Important because there’s so many different areas you can focus on. Very few players can focus on having great micro and macro at the same time. The pros constantly chase the ability to do both at once.
Micro
MKP
Control of your individual units and groups of army units to get the maximum efficiency. It can be aggressive or defensive in nature Marine splits is a very obvious showcase of micro, but there’s pretty much unlimited ways you can micro your units to gain effectiveness based on the specific engagement, units involved and architecture of the map. Stutter step + spread Sometimes players can’t micro everything at once as it takes a lot of actions Playing a micro game one spends less focus on macro tasks and usually is much more aggressive, aiming to utilise good micro management to kill their opponent with very precise aggression.
4:00 - oracle micro 4:45 - Defensive micro
Metagame, The Meta and so on.
The meta is the “standard” or popular ways of playing at a given time. Everyone ends up playing into this meta somewhat, even if they don’t mean to Of course there’s always a range of strategies, but there always evolves a sort of understanding of what usually happens from a situation. People start to make scouting reads based on this meta “If he’s got 10 marines at 4:00 in TvZ then he’s going 2-1-1. People start to play safe ONLY against aggression that is common in the current meta because they aren’t ever punished and start to feel like it’s safe even though it’s not. People start to do weird unique attacks because no-one expects it!
Cheese
Has vs Jaedong:
Kaelaris losing it bonus clip:
Cheese is a strategy that relies primarily on the element of surprise and involves an inherent gamble in order to work. It usually sacrifices so much economy and tech development in favour of one particular attack that outright victory or crippling damage must be achieved for it to be successful. “it's a distinct sacrifice in order to catch your opponent off guard.. Relies on opponent not doing something and has high variation” Two main types of cheese: One relies on the psychological impact/surprise of an attack causing them not to defend correctly. The other relies on them not scouting key parts that lead into the attack Making decisions which the opponent specifically doesn’t expect because they are not solid or weak decisions. This plays heavily on the metagame - it only works because the opponent has specifically disregarded this as an option since it is technically a poor one. Only through the element of surrpise and the opponent playing a little heavily on the metagame does this work. Keep in mind even the most solid and best players in the world will do cheesy things once in a while. People mainly get elitist and disregard skill only when a player appears to only be capable of winning through cheese. We never see this sort of player win whole tournaments because they can’t get lucky through every round of the tournament.
Examples of it working in Korea. Just a few of MANY times it worked there:
Ultimately not much answer at top level KR play.
Too much variety.
stalker/prism vs cyclone, immortal adept vs marine tank. Stalkers vs libs. Obs vs mines. So many varieties it’s very hard for Protoss to balance. Have to balance on the fly.
SHANGHAI Ptitdrogo holds Masa’s 1-base cheese
3-gate robo defence. Overcharge to buy time Focus on warping in ASAP and frequently. Add extra gates with excess minerals Pull Probes when bunkers are halfway done Focus fire the tech units Medivacs, THEN tanks, then cyclones usually. At lower levels you can just aim the tanks and cyclones first as they won’t have good enough micro to pick them up. At high levels always focus the medivac first or you’ll lose lots of stalker projectiles when they pick up
So how do we scout and what are the options?
there is 3 things they can do with gas first 1. gas first reaper -->factory they will get 1:45 cc still its bascially the same as barracks gas marine they can do the same builds with that except here u have a reaper to scout and slightly worse mineral eco
2. Gas first marine factory inbase u will see the factory with this
3. gas first marine factory proxy if u scout gas first and u dont see a factory in base and there is no cc on low ground it is proxy factory so then u know what it is either mine-->tank or straight tank
SHANGHAI Ptitdrogo holds Masa’s 1-base cheese
3-gate robo defence. Overcharge to buy time Focus on warping in ASAP and frequently. Add extra gates with excess minerals Pull Probes when bunkers are halfway done Focus fire the tech units Medivacs, THEN tanks, then cyclones usually. At lower levels you can just aim the tanks and cyclones first as they won’t have good enough micro to pick them up. At high levels always focus the medivac first or you’ll lose lots of stalker projectiles when they pick up
Harstem Byun
Scout fast 2nd depot @1:45 - indicates it might be aggressive Also the meta on frozen is lots of cheese cos no ramp for P to use highground on
Nonstop building units Mothership core isn’t important Any tank or cyclone attack will never fight into overcharge - so it just buys time. Buying time often doesn’t help since the terran will build bunkers and Protoss NEEDS to fight before those bunkers get up. Chrono warpgate from ⅓ done so that it times out with your gates finishing 2xgates at 3:00
Focus on warping in ASAP and frequently. Add extra gates with excess minerals (5:10) Pull Probes when bunkers are halfway done Focus fire the tech units Medivacs, THEN tanks, then cyclones usually. At lower levels you can just aim the tanks and cyclones first as they won’t have good enough micro to pick them up. At high levels always focus the medivac first or you’ll lose lots of stalker projectiles when they pick up
Move out after first warpin with 6 units and probes from the natural to make sure he cant set up with bunkers Meant to hold the position 2 immortals then prism
You can shade past with 2 adepts if they went tanks. But if there’s any cyclones its best not to.
Trap vs Innovation’s cyclone cheese
The most important thing is still the rule of pumping units off 3 gates and a robo
Vs cyclone-heavy styles the key is to use a warp prism to micro vs it. It’s pretty advanced, however even if you can’t do it too well dw your opponent will mess up their cyclone micro too so you should do ok.
High ground Moving forward then back. Forward then back. Pylon Overcharge as a safety zone
The twilight (greed) + obs being sniped was what made this so hard. If Inno pushed in he probably could have won. There was a window before that scan came down (10:15) where trap could have engaged, targetting the mines and using the prism to negate the cyclones’ lock on.
Blink and disruptors eventually if it drags onto bigger armies The best anti mech units.
Summary:
You can probably defend if you play a safe 3g robo and delay mocore You will need great anti-cyclone micro and very good engagement micro and sick timing of when you choose to engage
Ultimately not much answer at top level KR play.
Too much variety.
stalker/prism vs cyclone, immortal adept vs marine tank. Stalkers vs libs. Obs vs mines. So many varieties it’s very hard for Protoss to balance. Have to balance on the fly.
Of course I hop on ladder and the first 2 terrans I play both do this push. Surprising how easy it is to hold with this minor adjustment to chrono usage.
In your recent videos you've spent some time explaining the opposite side of a strategy. If someone is using the build you're explaining look for X do Y plan for Z. That has been very helpful and has encouraged me to watch videos that don't directly help me be a better player.
On October 11 2016 20:35 Dracover wrote: More great stuff mate.
Of course I hop on ladder and the first 2 terrans I play both do this push. Surprising how easy it is to hold with this minor adjustment to chrono usage.
I've definitely noticed the PiG effect when he does a daily breaking down a XvZ build and suddenly I see it on ladder. Maybe I'm recognizing it because I saw the video explaining it, or maybe it really is that far reaching.
On October 12 2016 03:11 Probe1 wrote: I've definitely noticed the PiG effect when he does a daily breaking down a XvZ build and suddenly I see it on ladder. Maybe I'm recognizing it because I saw the video explaining it, or maybe it really is that far reaching.
For me anyway, it's a lot of knowing what to look for. Previously as a Toss I see double gas or supply wall and I know it's one base tech. But I have no idea which version or what to do against each version. Seeing it explained gives direction.
I did lose one game yesterday to a guy who delayed the push. I.e. didn't come out with the first tank and a handful of marines. (which pig did not go through as a possible variant). He had several more tanks and lots more marines. It is far more difficult to defend if you chronoed units and therefore delayed tech.
I saw a Kespa cup game recently (I think) where the toss teched to fast collosus. Waited and then eventually crushed it with collosus gateway army. However they did a normal opening which allowed the fast collosus.
On October 12 2016 03:11 Probe1 wrote: I've definitely noticed the PiG effect when he does a daily breaking down a XvZ build and suddenly I see it on ladder. Maybe I'm recognizing it because I saw the video explaining it, or maybe it really is that far reaching.
For me anyway, it's a lot of knowing what to look for. Previously as a Toss I see double gas or supply wall and I know it's one base tech. But I have no idea which version or what to do against each version. Seeing it explained gives direction.
I did lose one game yesterday to a guy who delayed the push. I.e. didn't come out with the first tank and a handful of marines. (which pig did not go through as a possible variant). He had several more tanks and lots more marines. It is far more difficult to defend if you chronoed units and therefore delayed tech.
I saw a Kespa cup game recently (I think) where the toss teched to fast collosus. Waited and then eventually crushed it with collosus gateway army. However they did a normal opening which allowed the fast collosus.
Your robo should actually be insanely fast with either because remember whilst chrono usage on gateway is important, delaying the mocore and rushing out obs + immortals is just as important. If nothing hits you by 4:30 your obs or a probe should start looking for exactly what you're up against. You should start looking to see if he's expanded etc. All the while constantly warping in units off those 3 gates and chronoboosting immortals/prism.
Added an annotation to clarify something in the video here too:
10:40 - "Actually, you can take chrono off the warpgate research and onto the robo when it finishes as Drogo does. The observer and immortal are also super important."
I just started playing again recently and wanted to share some love here. Your dailys are very educational and enjoyable. Thank you for putting the time in and putting out new content for the community!
On October 12 2016 16:15 RaNgeD wrote: I just started playing again recently and wanted to share some love here. Your dailys are very educational and enjoyable. Thank you for putting the time in and putting out new content for the community!
Is it be possible to update OP so that is shows the current ICYFAR rules? or have it be part of shownotes in the latest ICYFAR VOD's? I've fallen terribly far behind on the series but would like to keep submitting replays
On October 13 2016 18:49 ejozl wrote: Is it be possible to update OP so that is shows the current ICYFAR rules? or have it be part of shownotes in the latest ICYFAR VOD's? I've fallen terribly far behind on the series but would like to keep submitting replays
You could always open the VODs on Youtube and read the description to see the ICYFAR rules for the week.
A few notes on cyclone widow mine type. Mag-field rush kicks in at 3:52. You can dance back and forth before this point vs this rush. Fast mocore might be worthwhile here to buy time, though rotating units will probably work just as well since there’s no spotting unit early, so just adept/stalker micro should hold with just bruising.
Summarising thoughts Nexus-scout is so popular. Every single game where it works the protoss players scouting is denied. The only time it was scouted was classic on galactic - and this game was actually very close. Classic forgot warpgate research though otherwise he would have held easily. Zest does it vs TY on gettys and he gets away with 3cc BEFORE GAS Hush does the same thing and fails to identify that he’s up against a 2-gas build. Classic doesn’t chrono WG at all and doesn’t have his first warpin ready until 4:30 t The only game where someone wins is trust vs innovation where he clearly expects the build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTaLWJlXcQ However because he doesn’t chrono gate he only has 2 gateway units out when it comes and only because he has the prism (perfect against this exact variation) does it work. +1 for delaying mocore though!
Gas first Factory asap 2nd gas right after factory 1:50 - Gas Steal Double Depot Bunker wall 4 marines then reactor Cyclone then tank production Medivac then lib production Bring scvs Build bunkers
Frost (not 1 base)
Gas-first Reaper → reactor Delay depot 20 CC Factory 2:07 21 depot 2:15 2nd gas (22 supply) Starport Widow mine x2 8 marine drop 2nd medivac and nonstop marine mine production 3:45 reaper scout to confirm no oracle 4:15 ebay in natural wall +1 weapons, 2nd-3rd rax, 3rd gas, turrets, liberator.
First medivac tries to be annoying. Keep all marines alive 2nd medivac comes in with 3 mines 2 marines as first medivac goes back in Liberator follows up
3rd CC, tank production THEN 4th gas + more barracks. Very late stim
Hits at 3:55 - because delayed by pylon. But trap not ready at all. Could hit 3:35? With the first tank and 7 marines.
Gettysburg - TY wins
First depot blocking the path Gas-barracks-gas Barracks on lowground Factory right next to barracks
Barracks 1-marine Reactor
Factory Tech lab Tank Cyclone Cyclone
Starport Medivac Viking
Maru vs Husk PL R3 Frozen Temple -
Abandons nexus - breaks out eventually but is too far behind - fast mothership core. prism before nexus. 6:44 is game starting time 10:30 = widow mine marine drop hits the front (3:45) 4:00 - 1 bunker starts bunker already 1/3 done and tank seiged at 10:54. (4:09) 1 tank into cyclones 1 medivac into libs
On October 13 2016 18:49 ejozl wrote: Is it be possible to update OP so that is shows the current ICYFAR rules? or have it be part of shownotes in the latest ICYFAR VOD's? I've fallen terribly far behind on the series but would like to keep submitting replays
Sure, added it, hopefully I remember to keep it up. It's always in the Youtube description .
I think also, I find korean pros have this base idea that any build you do should never involve worker cutting. i.e. a build must work around the fact you need constant worker production. If you cut it's because you are doing a timing attack at that point.
I don't think I've ever seen any build where it's cut 2 probes here because I will get XYZ 10 secs earlier which will mean blah.
I often wonder if we will ever see builds which deliberately cut workers to hit certain harass timings e.g. get to xyz earlier and deny stim.
ADD ANNOTATIONS TO EACH OTHER UPGRADE VOD ONCE ALL UP
The Key to understanding the usefulness of upgrades is Effective Damage and survivability in relevant common scenarios.
Upgrade scaling with bigger fights
Fights spiralling hard as more dps drops for one side
ZvZ
Lings 5 on 5 - ovie dropping creep. Ling speed given for one side, then added to the other also.
Lingspeed - 4.13MS to 6.58 - An increase of 2.45. That’s roughly a 59% MS increase.
Creep gives a 30% movement speed increase for most units. Upgraded Hydras and drones get no movement speed boost, queens get a much higher % movespeed boost.
Normally damage upgrades are around 10% per upgrade. And armour upgrades are normally exactly 1 point of armour per upgrade.
Damage Upgrades - +20% boost per upgrade! Massive compared to many other units! The problem is finding the opportunity for those lings to survive into melee range as the game progresses. The bigger the armies get, the more splash damage, the harder it is for the very fragile lings to survive.
Calculating how many hits a unit takes to kill another unit in a common interaction is a good way to see how much value it gives - in ling vs ling for instance we do the HP of the unit 35 + 1, divided by the attack of the unit.
So 36 divided by 5 = 7.2. Therefore it takes 8 hits for a ling to kill another ling. With +1 it’s down to just 6 hits to kill another zergling. A 25% boost in terms of effective damage in ling vs ling. Because there was already so much overkill when it took 8 hits to deal just 7.2 hits worth of damage to finish off the ling.
However this result actually isn’t consistent. Since sometimes the ling will regenerate a second point of life during a 1 on 1 ling fight and hence still take 7 hits. In which case it’s only a 12.5% increase. Nowhere near as big.
What about carapace?
36/4 = 9 hits to kill. However because it takes 1 hit extra there’s ALWAYS going to be the extra HP of regen. Which makes it 10 hits CONSISTENTLY. Therefore carapace is consistently stronger than melee in zergling battles. A solid 25% boost in survivability vs the 12.5-25% variance in effective damage from +1 melee.
Nonetheless in small skirmishes, counterattacks and runbys - the upgrades are huge. That’s why a fast upgrade is often very popular in ZvZ.
Adrenal glands - 40% attack speed boost. From two attacks a second to almost three attacks a second. ^Amplifies your previous upgrades as well, so actually has an insane value the better your melee ups.
Roaches
Ling vs roach - 37 hits normally, even if 3hp regenerates during fight. At 4hp it becomes 38 hits. +1 = 30 hits +2 = 25 hits +3 = 21 hits.
The big one in roaches vs lings is +1 attack which makes the roach 2- shot rather than 3-shot the lings. That’s a 33% boost in effective damage. However this is completely negated by +1 carapace and the roaches will go back to 3-shotting.
Once +2 range is done the zerglings need +3 carapace in order to go back to taking 3-shots. Once +3 ranged is finished the lings will always be 2-shot.
Banelings will 1 shot lings +1 carapace allows lings to survive with 1HP. +1 melee on banes means lings are always 1-shot (39dmg vs 36+3carapace at max)
Banes 3-shot hydras until +2 melee (+3 carapace will negate this until +3 melee hits in)
Bane speed Starts with 3.5 Upgrade takes it to 4.13 - increase of 0.63 -18% MS speed increase Pretty huge simply due to the nature of the unit relying entirely on actually connecting with enemy units
Banes vs marines with and without it
Always get this is banes are a significant part of your army in the midgame. You usually don’t see this in ZvZ because banes are just for the earlygame - and not useful vs enemy mutalisks or roaches which dominate the midgame. The only time you do see it in ZvZ is when they go hydras to counter your mutas so you add speedbanes to counter their hydras
+1 carapace used to be very huge for big roach-ling and sometimes ravager-ling attacks because of this.
Ling Upgrades don’t matter vs hydras etc because we never see those situations
+1 cara
Roach
3.15 MS for slowroach 4.2MS for speedroach 25% MS increase
Roach vs Roach Base = 10 hits (occasionally 11) +1 = 9 hits. +2 = 8 hits +3 = 8 hits (regen) - less regen in big battle so usually 7 hits.
Ravagers attack faster than roaches but they have the exact same damage increments so they benefit in the same way.
For armour Ravagers are naturally in the back line so they don’t really matter - they do attack quite a bit faster than a roach though
Lurkers - 6-shot roaches 5-shot roaches with +1 +3 carapace is the only way to bring it back to 6-shots
5-shot hydras 4-shot with +1 +2 carapace or above keeps it at 5-shots until +2 attack kicks in
Ultra
Kills lings in 1 shot +1 carapace negates Once it has +1 weapons it will always 1-shot
5-shots roaches 4-shot with +1 4-shots with +2 4-shots with +3
Carapace upgrades don’t affect unupgraded at all. Carapace negates +1. Nothing negates +2.
3-shots hydras 2-shots with +2 (negated by +1)
+1 carapace is vital with roach hydra vs low-upgrade ultralisks.
Ultra vs Lurker 6 hits Only at +3 do ultras 5-shot lurkers +3 carapace makes it 6 hits
Ultra vs Ultra 17-shots 16 +1 +2 melee = 14 shots. (15 vs carapace) +3 = 13 shots (14 vs +3 carapace)
Muta vs Muta
Carapace rather than attack as it negates a full damage point off multiple bounces
In Mutalisk vs Mutalisk battles, Flyer Carapace should always be upgraded rather than Flyer Attacks if possible; Air Carapace decreases the damage of all 3 bounces from the glaive wurm by 1 each, while Air Attack only increases the damage of the attacks by 1, 0.33, and 0.11 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
Mutalisk health regeneration rate increased to 1.4 HP/second.
1-1 on muta fight 16 hits Regen makes it impossible to calculate exact hits for a kill as every fight there’s differing muta counts and therefore more or less time to regen life during the combat.
Infestor upgrade and timing it out so that the pathogen glands is at least 37.5% finished (21 seconds) before you start infestors so they pop after the upgrade finishes
When are upgrades worthwhile?
When should you start your lair/+1 in order to sync up roach speed and +1 range attack for an attack?
thanks for your videos sir. i'm in Diamond and i'm 1-1-1-ing fast expanders to a quick and ugly death. usually i add more Rax as i can afford them. 85 year old grandmas probably have better micro and multitasking than me.. but with the 1-1-1 there are so few units on teh board i look like boxer.
DISCLAIMER : i have nothing against grandmothers. if it weren't for Mike Morhaime's grandmother Blizzard never woulda happened.
An episode looking at the COMMON adjustments to composition made by pros in order to counter all the regular shifts and adjustments in composition. Remember there’s limitless compositions and unit ratios, and many ways to deal with them. Today we’re talking about the most common stuff in the meta (current strats)
Before we begin to answer the most common bronze-league question:
How to counter voidrays? Light units (voidrays do bonus to armoured) “But my hydras just melt!!” Macro is still important Even strong counters should be thought of as units that can “deal” with the enemy units when used correctly. But just getting them out doesn’t win you the game. As long as your opponent doesn’t simply mass one unit all game long, you will need to have a balanced “standard” composition, and then make adjustments based on what your opponent is going. So if you see 1 or 2 voidrays, maybe just ensure you have some marines or hydras mixed in. But don’t ONLY build marines and hydras, as those voidrays might only be 10% of the enemy composition. Only focus on just that single counter if you see ONLY voidrays and lots of stargates… continuing to build void-rays Ofc carries over to every other scenario
ZvT
Terran side Bio Base Adjust both ratio of marauders and marines, and the addition of mines or tanks.
Marine-marauder ratio. Marauders are good at tanking vs ling-bane, but don’t really have enough damage output to be super effective, they just help protect the marines. You want some, but not many.
The “standard” way to play is 1 tech lab, 4 reactors, then 3 more tech labs. However some players choose to opt for 2, or sometimes even 3 tech labs on their first 5-rax when fighting vs roach-ravager. On the other end of the spectrum we have Innovation vs Solar in Shoutcraft Kings recently, building 6 reactors and only 2 tech labs at his full 8-barracks production
Widow mines vs ling-bane with this compositon Marines firepower also very important to gun down the front-running ling-bane so the mines don’t waste their firepower on the front guys and instead automatically focus on the main packs of lingbane rolling in the centre (annotation to micro vod https://youtu.be/gTcdPlk1cds?t=2364 ) If you don’t have enough marines you often just need to spend most of the time running away and spreading rather than shooting, that’s when zerg rolls over you. Also why pre-splits are so important. Doesn’t matter how good you are at splitting if your stuff’s running it’s not shooting!
Snute vs Bunny double fact-tank pushes Uthermal vs Snute double fact-tank push IEM Shanghai:
Tanks or mines? Usually Terran players will build tanks vs roach-ravager, and mines vs ling-bane. At lower levels hellbats can be fantastic if you spread well as they roast zerglings. However they aren’t good at clearing banelings like widow-mines so they aren’t favoured at high level. Some players prefer to get a fast 2nd factory before going to 7 or 8 barracks. They can use this for double tank production or drilling claws and triple mine production. Both of these suffer against Ultralisks in the late-game as they lack mobility and take away from the earlier marauder count which can kite ultras to death at high level.
Zerg side
Roach-ravager or Ling-bane focus Both are good bases to your army - you don’t “react” into one or the other. You choose the style you prefer to play before the game starts or very early on. The important thing is to understand how to adjust.
MLB Hellbats: Super heavy baneling count to instantly kill hellbats and allow your lings to roll over everything else. Because there’s no effective splash except the hellbats and they will die instantly you don’t need to spread and can roll over this army as long as you have the numbers
Shoutcraft VoD again
Mines Just spreading your army every time you engage and actively spreading forward with your lingbane is big here. (annotation to micro vod https://youtu.be/gTcdPlk1cds?t=2364 ) Also you want to have more lings, and not so many banelings. At least 3 lings to every baneling so your lings can close in and wrap around the Terran army Drag widow mine shots into their army AND away from your banelings Less clumps of banelings as juicy mine targets
Tanks Always try to pre-spread to minimise splash damage and flank More lings, less banes once again, for the same reasons
Thors/liberators Corruptors rather than mutalisks If you already have mutas just stop building them The exception is if you’re already doing lots of damage with the mutas and they don’t have many of these units out yet - in which case you can try to pick them off and use your momentum to fight where they aren’t
Roach-Ravager
Pure bio army Don’t add banelings! Dark’s banelings were pre-empting a ghost-switch from bomber to counter his ultralisks Dark over-estimated the strength of his ultras at defending mass bio with a little fungal support. More fungal is fantastic Just need enough RR to do the damage/be the meat alongside the fungal bile combos Killing them with an attack by using positioning + corrosive bile https://youtu.be/7sJnjG1mdJg?t=1497 ^abusing the range of bile and the importance of concaves
Tanks Focus on flanking Less infestors - more important to have raw numbers or to tech harder to ultras/broods More ravagers not armoured (might change in future patch) And corrosive bile to kill tanks/force them to lift You can just fight them without a composition adjustment Only when they get to a crazy tank count or a really abusive position is it deadly. So normally you just fight to not give them a strong ledge above a base or so on. And you aim to either win, or get to hive tech before they get 10+ tanks
Mech
Not particularly popular since it has some potent weaknesses however still seen sometimes
Oldschool variant of mech relies on adding more tanks vs ground armies, thors for anti-air (and anti-ultra) and hellbats for defending lings.
Widow mines as bonus anti-air vs corruptors to help defend libs
Iaguz: [5:14:11 PM] iaguz guzson: I recall in hots the trick was to make the precise amount of tanks which was about 10-15 and no more [5:14:18 PM] iaguz guzson: and then go into thors and flying units [5:14:33 PM] iaguz guzson: once vipers are out you don't get to really attack with tanks anymore
[5:15:40 PM] iaguz guzson: the reason why tanks are so essentially early on is that they're the only cost efficient way to avoid dying to roaches [5:15:56 PM] iaguz guzson: but once you've got a big enough economy and enough mechy units you can beat any ground army without all that many tanks
still nice to hvae a few to pick at crawlers and infestors
Skyterran mech Dayshi vs Elazer Libs for anti-ground Helions for anti-ling Mines + viking for anti-air Helions for harassment/to buy time
With either style: Big push before vipers, or play a very slow, turtley game with lots of PFs, turrets and zoning out areas of the map, because attacking into fungal/PB, abducts and blinding clouds doesn’t tend to work very well.
Zerg anti mech:
Roach-Hydra-Viper
https://youtu.be/UHWDuQf_I28?t=1166 Potentially add infestors as well Vs super turtley you might need to eventually transition to broods, corrupters, static.
On October 17 2016 17:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: thanks for your videos sir. i'm in Diamond and i'm 1-1-1-ing fast expanders to a quick and ugly death. usually i add more Rax as i can afford them. 85 year old grandmas probably have better micro and multitasking than me.. but with the 1-1-1 there are so few units on teh board i look like boxer.
DISCLAIMER : i have nothing against grandmothers. if it weren't for Mike Morhaime's grandmother Blizzard never woulda happened.
Haha I'm happy I did an episode on how to defend this first, otherwise I'd feel so much guilt for the wave of cheese I've encouraged in PvT
So today we’re talking about the most important powerful upgrades that make massive changes. I’m focusing on the attack and defence upgrades - special upgrades like hydra movespeed and range, banespeed, blink, charge etc are always something you should get if you’re using a lot of that unit in your army in the midgame onwards.
I’m pointing out where upgrades make almost no effective change.
Simple examples to start off with are:
Zealot vs ling 0-0 Zealot vs ling +1 vs0 Zealot vs ling +1 vs +1 Zealot ling +2 vs 0
Zealot vs zergling - 3 shots. +1 attack = 2 shots. 33% boost from 1 upgrade wow! However getting +2 and +3 means it’s still 3-shots. Therefore for zealot vs zergling, +2 and +3 are worthless.
Unless the zerg gets carapace to cancel out some of those attack upgrades.
Unless charge kicks in, in which case the zealot will always 2-shot the first ling unless the ling is 2-carapace upgrades ahead!
SO case 1: ZERGS SKIPPING CARAPACE and focusing on mass ling-bane
Vs mass ling/bane - armour upgrades are far more important in general vs the zerglings. If ling-bane becomes super common in the meta, shield or armour ups may actually be more important.
Being up +1 attack to the carapace is the only important atk upgrade for the zealots +1 also means archons direct hit (will always 1-shot)
+2 attack vs +2 melee - 8 zealots left standing +1 attack and +1 armour is acutally wayyy better for this.
+2 attack 5-4-7-2-0 - 18 units survived vs 1-1 ground armour 11-5-9-9-9 - 43 units survived Vs Then test shields 5-6-8-3-10 - 32 units survived (ARCHONS - HIGH DAMAGE BUT SHREKT BY LINGS with UPGRADES)
Swap 2 immortals for 2 archons and test with +1 attack and +1 shields 6-8-14-11-10 - 49 units survived - best yet! But remember this is also compositon +2 atk -8-10-4-6-9 - 37 units survived +1-1 ground armour - 8-10-3-12-7 - 39 units survived IF MORE IMMORTALS THIS WOULD BE MORE RELIABLE
However with micro will it perform the same? I can’t say for sure but let’s think about it Archons and zealots when spread will be taking less banelings hits, and more ling hits - armour upgrades more effectives Banelings will force the units to spread out more though - allow zerglings to close in, surround and destroy spread out units much faster. Also zealots will for the most part have to be way back, waiting for the banes to be mostly dead before they can engage - sometimes most of the archons will already be dead by then, nice upgrades or not. This factor though is actually a big reason why am really liking this single robo straight into shields after +1 attack style where you make more archons and focus your chargelots on counterattacks.
Archon splash 100% single target 50% dmg just outside that 33% just outside that
What about vs hydra-ling-lurker
Show with +2 range vs 1-1
+2 attack 5-5-6-2-4 - 22 units survived total 1-1 - 2-4-3-3-3 - 15 units survived shields 3-0-6-3-6 - 18 units survived
Attack bonuses Zealots 4-shot hydras with +2 Archons 5-shot with +1 vs lurker Immortals 4-shot with +1 lurker Archons 2-shot hydras with +2
Armour bonuses Ground armour is fantastic vs lings Fantastic vs hydras However once again archons are somewhat important with this style and won’t benefit.
Show +2range
But wait, isn’t +2 range good for this composition? What if zerg has that rather than 1-1? Now Change zerg upgrades so it’s +2 range vs +2 attack Suddenly the zerg wins almost every time With heavy hydra-lurker this is more important than melee! The lings just evaporate, they’re there to absorb charge, tank a little, and simply spend excess minerals!
NOW show 5 hydras traded out for 20 more lings! EXTRAA LINGS
Test
1-1 vs 1-1Z 4-0-3-3-3 TOTAL 13 +2 vs 1-1Z 3-0-0-0-3 TOTAL 6 1+shields 0-0-3-4-2 TOTAL 9
Show same scenario with +2 range -generally not as effective. More lings = more value from melee, more hydra/lurker = more value from them.
As we see P armour is most useful vs lings! vs the heavier range damage of these units. You’d rather have attack as P Zerg should generally prioritise the range upgrades with heavier hydra lurker Vs no armour/shield upgrades adding lings is always worthwhile too
Nerchio’s doubling up on both upgrades makes a lot of sense. This way P players can’t counter both the lings AND the hydra/lurker without going double forge
The conclusion we can draw is that indeed as my hypothesis stated - armour upgrades are the most important vs lings due to the fact that you will generally way overkill vs zerglings. This is even the same for roach vs ling - +1 attack is great but anything else sucks. The reason this isn’t true for Terran is that marines and marauders do smaller, faster increments of damage and so there isn’t much overkill
PART 2
General interesting unit points
Zergling damage
Back to 80 lings vs 20 zealots - add melee upgrades and adrenal
Pretty linear advancement in line with the lings actual % of increased damage against all units Most important is just that it’s a HUGE increase, because a full damage point 20% for +1 Slightly decreasing with each upgrade to +3 But then also adrenal which gives 40% attack speed OP upgrades to make up for the fact that lings can be denied the opportunity to ever hit anything! By the time all those upgrades kick in toss can have aoe, ff and good wall-offs. Low damage means only ground armour and shield upgrades do CANCEL out the advantages somewhat. However luckily Protoss life is split so they can’t easily upgrade both, whereas other races get just 1 upgrade for all their HP
Banelings +1 vs zealots, adepts and stalkers, where unless they have +2 ground armour it brings down the shots to kill from 5 to 4 for adepts and zealots, or 9 to 8 for stalkers.
+2 1-shot probes
Roaches Gradual power increase - +2 = 2-shotting probes
Hydra Gradual increase +1 per upgrade so more affected by enemy armour upgrades
Queen 2 low damage attacks with only +1 per upgrade = get rekt if you have inferior upgrades Gradual increase as you progress
Muta Gradual damage increase - drastically reduced bounce damage vs good armour upgrades - each bounce only gets 33% dmg of the previous hit so receives very little boost from upgrades. Armour very good vs phoenix - but since the unit sucks vs them it’s usually more worthwhile to go attack and just try to get your crucial damage done while the window is open
Corruptors Armour very good vs phoenix
Ultra Vs immortal SHOW ULTRA VS IMMORTAL +3 atk vs 0 armour, then vs +3 armour and +3 shields. 12 11 10 with +2 (11 if vs +2 ground armour) ALWAYS 10 with +3 (armour upgrades don’t matter Not that massive change because of the shield
Lurkers NEVER fight on their own so upgrades are simply incremental
Corruptors - show a corruptor vs 4 phoenix. +3 carapace vs 0-0 phoenix THEN show it with just +2 carapace Corruptors benefit massively from armour vs phoenix and carriers. Attack helps them vs tempests
Protoss
Adept
Attack upgrades are completely negigible vs lings AND hydras unless you have +3 atk vs 0 carapace OR They have +2 carapace vs 0 attack
Stalker
vs lings
+2 is key for 3-shotting lings -2 = 5-shots
Vs hydras +3 is no diff to +2
Vs mutas +1 = 11 (if you pretty much 1-shot them) Doesn’t go up with +2
Archons Vs Roaches +0 = 5 +1 = 4 +1 atk is important 20% bonus! Only this upgrade matters. Only denied by +2 or higher carapace
Vs mutas +0 = 4 +1 = +2 = 3 (4 shots if +3 carapace) +3 = ALWAYS 3 shots
DTs upgrades don’t matter at all in most situations
Immortal
vs lings Always 2 shot lings
Vs banelings Always 2 shot
Vs Roaches +0 = 3 - only 4 if no atk upgrades and they have +2 carapace - upgrades don’t really matter Vs Hydras +0 = 5 +1 = 4 - only brought back to 5 by +2 carapace +2 = always 4
+1 = 4 always 4
Colossus
Gets rekt by armour cos 2 attacks and only 1 attack bonus per atk upgrade If enemy has more armour than you have attack huge losses
vs lings Always 2
Vs banelings Always 2
Vs Hydras
As long as you’re 2 attack upgrades ahead of their armour ups, you’ll 3-shot them.
Phoenix +1 = 4 having a 1 attack upgrade advantage over their armour is key to 4-shotting hydras #rottibuild If you fall behind you will lose out exponentially. Pretty standard gains though on the attack side.
Carriers exact same concept
Voidrays
Also somewhat dependant on not falling behind in upgrades since they have low damage but fast attack speed, and only gain 1 atk per up.
Vs corrupters just steady increase nothing massive
Bonus disorganised notes, numbers and testing results + Show Spoiler +
ZERG ATTACKS/P armour
Ling
Talk about how pro zergs focus on attack upgrades because carapace are expensive, kick in slowly and have relatively little effect. +1 carapace can help negate the +2 on stalkers killing lings, but stalkers is not the strongest composition so it’s rare to see this. Armour ups on roaches are great vs zealots and adepts, but really pointless vs immortals and archons
vs zealot Pretty linear advancement in line with the lings actual % of increased damage against all units Most important is just that it’s a HUGE increase, 20% for +1 Slightly decreasing with each upgrade to +3 But then also adrenal which gives 40% attack speed OP upgrades to make up for the fact that lings can be denied the opportunity to ever hit anything! By the time all those upgrades kick in toss can have aoe, ff and good walloffs.
vs adept Pretty much the same as the zealot even though 20 less HP as shields = slightly less armour modifiers
Vs stalker 9 with no ups +1 takes it down to 8 +2 takes it down to 7
Vs Probes +2 = 2-shotting them
Vs archon - the lings are actually what shred the archons the banes just force them to spread so the lings can get surface area
Roach
Nothing special - just gradual effect. +2 per upgrade so not too affected by armour. No special power bumps vs protoss +2 will allow you to 2-shot probes
Vs adept 10-shots 9-shots 8-shots 7-shots
Hydra Gradual increase +1 per upgrade so more affected by enemy armour upgrades
Queen 2 low damage attacks with only +1 per upgrade = get rekt if you have inferior upgrades Gradual increase as you progress
Muta Gradual damage increase - drastically reduced bounce damage vs good armour upgrades - each bounce only gets 33% dmg of the previous hit so receives very little boost from upgrades. Armour very good vs phoenix - but since the unit sucks vs them it’s usually more worthwhile to go attack and just try to get your crucial damage done while the window is open
Corruptors Armour very good vs phoenix
Ultra Vs immortal 12 11 10 with +2 (11 if vs +2 ground armour) 10 with +3 Not that massive change because of the shield
Lurker
vs zealot 8-shots 9 if +1 +2 or +3 carapace +1 weapons
Vs archon
Vs Immortal
Corruptor
Vs phoenix
Vs VR
Vs Carrier
Vs Tempest
Protoss Attacks/zerg armour
Vs mass ling/bane - armour upgrades are far more important in general vs the zerglings. There’s an awkward interaction where archons are great vs banelings AND their attack murders clumped lings. However since they’re mostly shields archons have NO armour - allowing lings with melee upgrades to shred them. You end up with armies that kill each other incredibly quickly. If ling-bane becomes super common in the meta, shield upgrades after +1 may actually be more important.
Case in point within the current meta:
Zergs skip carapace Lots of zergs massing ling-bane as core army (sometimes with ravagers in support)
So the key upgrades are:
+2 weapons for stalkers to 3-shot lings +1 for pre-charge zealots to 2-shot lings isn’t necessary since adepts are usually better that early on. If no carapace then 0 upgrade archons will still 1-shot lings Immortals will always 2-shot So really if you don’t go stalkers - and focus on adepts or chargelots into archons you simply don’t need attack upgrades - they don’t help you vs this army. However every armour or shield upgrade makes a significant change to survive. Shields is amazing for archons and OK for other units. Good rule with charge-immo-archon would be single robo = shield upgrades and more archons, double robo and more immortal/chargelot = ground armour upgrades Ground armour is useless for archons and quite good for other units. Generally you could say let’s just always focus on those ground
Zerg could counter this adjustment by adding +1 carapace for making archons take 2-shots - however they can’t do anything with THIS COMPOSITION to fight the effectiveness of those ground armour/shield upgrades
What about vs hydra-ling-lurker
Ground armour is fantastic vs lings Fantastic vs hydras However once again archons are somewhat important with this style and won’t benefit. Don’t need atk ups vs lings If you have zealot atk upgrades 2 higher than zerg carapace than zealots will 4-shot rather than 5-shot hydras. So you’d give up this 20% damage boost there. However it’s for a 16.67% reduction on hydra damage. Archons would lose their 6 to 5 bonus from +1. Immortals would lose their 5 to 4 bonus from +1
Zealot (gotta remember charge)
2-attacks Armour upgrades cancel out attack upgrades So we’ll talk about RELATIVE Upgrades +1 ahead, -1 behind etc So vs lots of armour they get rekt
vs lings +1 =2-shot lings 2-attacks so always negated by equal carapace upgrades. So being 1 upgrade ahead is the key here, no specific upgrade. Charge = 2-shot lings unless lings are 2 or more carpace upgrades ahead!
Carapace - only at 3 carapace and 0 atk do zealots take 4-shots. Any other deficit in atk vs armour upgrades doesn’t matter.
Vs Roaches - nothing of note except that you get gradual gains as ahead in upgrades, and massive falloff when behind in upgrades Equal upgrades = 11 hits 1 up ahead = 10 shots 2 ups ahead = 9shots 3 ups ahead = 8-shots
Vs Roaches +0 = 5 +1 = 4 +1 atk is important 20% bonus! Only this upgrade matters. Only denied by +2 or higher carapace +2 = 4 always 4 shots +3 = 4 -1 = -2 = -3 =
Vs Hydras +0 = 3 +1 = 3 +2 = 2 +2 is key (only stopped if they have +3 carapace) +3 = 2 (always 2 shots) -1 = -2 = -3 =
Vs Queens +0 = 6 (also 6 if +0 vs +3 carapace) +1 = 5 +2 = 5 +3 = 4 (always 5 if +2 or +3 carapace) -1 = -2 = -3 =
Today is a short episode showcasing a dirty cheese for zergs to do when they’re struggling vs Protoss and really need to get some easy wins to soothe their bruised egos. I present to you - “The Therapy Build”.
This is one from wayyy back when Dark vs Stats
The Build
17 gas 17 pool 18 hatch Queen + 2 lings to hunt down the probe and deny vision Cut drones at 19. 16 on minerals, 3 on gas. (no workers on natural) @100gas ling speed 2nd queen asap (first queen moves to inject natural) 22 Roach warren 21 replace drone that made warren 22 2xoverlord (OPTION)2-3 more pairs of lings to control the map and stop adepts spotting the roaches (or skip these for a sharper timing and rely on them retreating at the correct time to survive ling speed finishing) You can skip these lings and hit way harder - most protoss will know your ling speed is fast so won’t risk being on the map anyway. However if you prefer 100% information denial get these lings 7 roaches Mass lings YOLO! Morph damaged roaches into ravagers (5-armour when morphing + full heal when finished) Target down pylons Try to de-power gateways
Ok now I feel dirty - so I guess I’ll show you how to defend this sort of bullshit too.
Build units out of gateway Chrono warpgate a tad Ensure 2 more gateways down by 3:20 at the latest Mocore starts right after tech structure so 2 overcharges during the hold Always wall off at natural first to make it easier Memorise your wall-offs
Thanks for being quick on the adjust and attaching replays! It might not be so helpful (but you never know!) for ICYFAR but it'll definitely increase my comprehension of any little mistakes in executing builds highlighted like your particular roach ling style!
Guaranteed to stop apprehend all unwanted intruders on your premises!
Also it’ll drive them bloody insane trying to figure out what the hell your build is aiming for and struggling to scout wif you’re going all-in or macroing up!
This is a really funky, unique build that is hard to read for players who have little experience vs it. It’s a very defensive opening and removes the need for lightning reflexes in the TvT early-game.
It also plays very well into the meta of players going mass reaper, or multiple reapers and helions in the early-game.
Hammer doesn’t have blazing hot apm - almost half of mine in this game - and yet he outplays me really hard.
The build Barracks Tech lab 3 marauders Swaps off tech lab Reactor 2 marines Swap onto tech lab stim
Rallies next scv to gas Double gas at the same time as scv pops 2nd depot immediately after rax finishes (same scv) Tech lab first 25 gas Factory next 100 gas Tech lab Cyclone Widow mine Big pause 5:00 (after banshee/raven done) - Tank production
Marauder next 25 gas Concussive next 50 gas
@factory - starport + tech lab Starport Swap onto tech lab Cloak Raven (more time to gather energy) Banshee (just want to force the response and poke around) Swap onto rax reactor Medivac production 3:30 (37 supply) 3rd CC @natural CC - 3rd + 4th gas immediately 2xrax + reactors when you have cash Single ebay 2xrax 3rd CC
Banshee hits the main Raven hits the natural (same time is probably stronger) 4xmedivac doom-drop the main with tanks and stim bio whilst securing 3rd base and pumping out of 5-rax Good move to do something a bit risky/crazy since your econ isn’t too strong and you need to try and keep getting damage done
So it:
Shuts down aggression Reapers+helions - rekt Banshees - rekt by cyclone/raven Denies Scouting Reapers can’t get in to see whats up - opponent has to use more scans Can skip scanning and scouting yourself since you’re solid vs everything. No need to worry about scouting constantly or mind-games from the opponent
Downside Is a little light on the economy Is VERY defensive in the earlystages Relies on your opponent respecting the potential for you to be aggressive. If an opponent experiences this build a few times, they could just go kinda fast 3CC - no turrets, just 1 scan to kill the banshee and be way ahead in economy. However no-one would be crazy enough to do that after seeing such an early tech lab and fearing a weird marauder/bio rush Also seeing no early expand so fearing 1-base attack.
Cool to see a unique build order that screws with the opponents head whilst countering all the crazy early reaper, hellion and banshee aggression that is so common. Very cool playstyle.
On October 27 2016 16:09 Cascade wrote: Wait, is that What if? and ICYFAR at the same time? :o
woah mistitled VoD - dunno how that happend ty!
Aawww..
Can you combine them though?? Either have pros do an icyfar, or have done icyfar submitters go "what if".
Actually, would it be meaningful to do what if at lower level as education for us noobs? It'd be essentially like coaching I guess...
Yeah that sounds a lot like coaching, I'm going to put up more VoDs of coaching in future whenever i do a widely applicable! I think the regular What Ifs? are more about showing the method of finding errors and making adjustments that pros do as well as discussing the details of the matchup.
ICYFAR + What If? does sound amazing though haha. Might be a bit complicated though Might just focus on sponsoring an ICYFAR showmatch one day
2-rax reaper FE Lowground wall-off (true beating polts 3-rax reaper with ling counters THIS WHY YOU WALL OFF THE LOWGROUND The reapers need to keep trading, they won’t lose a fight vs the lings, but they can’t waste time chasing them around the map or the zerg can drone up freely OR commit to a huge all-in and there’s no way to know which it is. Combined risk of dying to an all-in Falling behind
Sniping larva/eggs with the grenades is great Dark actually could have defended this but doesn’t necessarily realise it’s not 3-rax reaper yet and is paranoid about losing queens
Pressure opening - not as committed as 3-rax Very strong if they commit to pool-first and ravagers Fast tankivac followup whilst taking a very fast 3rd AND well-timed upgrades
Abuses the map The reaper pressure isn’t as strong here when not proxied because the reapers take a long time to get across. However you still have a window to abuse the ramp area. Narrow area to 3rd where reapers can jump up or down easily True
Frontal push to force good trades straight away Rotate to a new angle where they aren’t prepared Create a DIFFICULT situation for them to deal with Poke forward with a small group to apply pressure Split drops into other bases whilst they try to bring everything together and position a flank to deal with the front
Dark Goes for ling speed AND 4xravagers - that’s a huge investment. Even against 3-rax most zergs will commit fully to just the ravagers and cancel the ling speed. Occasionally we see a crazy player like True just mass lings with extra queens and look for counterattacks and surroundsx
Summary:
Reapers try to force an over-reaction whilst having the opportunity to do good damage vs any mistakes Pairs beautifully with the follow-up tankivac pressure Seen it bouncing around queens as they try to close with the tankivacs a few times Great way to put Dark off balance for the rest of the series - following that game Dark constantly had to be on alert for reapers but would always be unsure of how much Byun was committing to them
Nice adjustment to go for fast 8 lings on this small map to try and catch reaper/kill marines/kill scvs/mules
Scouts cloaked banshees and goes lair instantly - overseers are the only way to fully shut down the banshees Gives a nice segway into very fast hive Delays upgrades a little but Terran will have even more delayed upgrades off this opening always. So the 4:50 2xevo is actually SUPER quick considering the situation.
5:05 WTF SPOTS CLOAKED BANSHEE
4-gas as you don’t really need that much gas - no infestors and no spire! - but you 100% need lots of hatcheries, queens and a 4th base for mining + production 70 drones might sound like a regular number, but since he’s only on 4-gas that’s actually only 12 drones mining gas as opposed to 18. 58 mineral drones vs 52 PLUS the 3 drone cost for making the extractors! (2 drones + 2x25 gas) So 58 vs 49 mineral drones for the same investment - about 450/minerals minute (18 lings/minute) + the extra 1200/1200 or 550/750 you’d spend on mutas/corruptors or infestors
Meatier army to roll over any over-extension from Terran - more lings = more surround, less micro opportunity, easier to drag mine shots away from banes and easier to flank + counter. But also it says “hey, Ultras will be here soon - you need to come attack me now, you can’t wait till 200 supply 2/2 or you’ll die to ultras!
7:30 - FIRST PERSON VIEW FOR FEW MINUTES
Baneling drop Patient defence and re-spread of creep. Attempted counter but doesn’t overcommit - still buys time
Abandons 4th - is mega patient and slowly adds in all the tools to perfect his maxxed out army. Uses creep as a defensive tool - never risks going off it where Byuns insane micro will find value
Creates an impossible situation for Terran Ultras? Add liberators! Vipers? It’s ok, more liberators! Corruptors + Vipers? Shit I need ghosts
^ That’s the point Dark found - rather than wait for broodlords and the perfect army he engaged at the perfect point well before Byun could head for any ghost tech and crushed it.
Summary Little 8 ling pressure at the start Super hard reaction to banshees to shut them down Techs very hard with very fast upgrades Stays on 4-gas and cuts out the “unessecary” bonus units like mutas/corruptors/infestors Uses creep as a defensive tool and refuses to fight off it. Patiently adds in all the extra tools as needed until he finds the moment where Terran can’t keep up with the proper unit counters
How do you deal with liberators if you don’t have a spire? You ignore them your ling-bane is too small so they do massive overkill and the fights are so fast they don’t have time to dish out damage to pay for themselves. If they come right into your creep, queens and MAYBE spores if they’re building heappsss
Q: On Frozen Temple you used your reapers to delay the ravager push. Was that something you’ve practiced specifically?
A: I’m the creator of that triple rax reaper strat. Others may say something else, but I made that build. And I made it so that it can be as versatile as it can possibly be. I’ve never lost defending against any sort of pushes or any types of composition using that build, it’s the most confident build that I have. I never really thought I was going to lose, but you know, Dark is Dark—he’s the other guy who made it to the BlizzCon Finals. He had a lot more units than anyone else that I’ve met, but luckily my stimpak was done. It was mostly down to the build I created though. If the attack failed, then there was a Plan B, a Plan C, so I was confident enough.
Byun’s 3-rax reaper is incredibly powerful on this map
Dark does a ravager-ling all-in to try and counter it. This attack will either overwhelm or fall flat. It will rarely trade well enough to transition into a standard game.
This map is one of the few places it can work because there’s no ramp on the natural = no need for highground vision However the middle canyon makes it hard.
Byun choosing to go only a single expo straight into 3-rax double medivac meant his stim was in time to stop it. Buying time and sniping a ravager was still key Vs 3CC Dark probably NEVER loses in practice
Byun shows his reaper going across the map, then doubles back out of vision to check for lings trying to deny CC Dark doesn’t even go for it in any of the games
Why don’t the helions morph to hellbats?? It’s been spotted Lost 1 reaper Normally you try to use both reapers to bounce the queens INTO the hellbats so they can’t just kite endlessly
4:20 - the lings clumping is the biggest mistake - too eager to stop the helions in their tracks, stop them getting through the choke past the queens etc. Needed to just spread them more before engaging - even if he lets the helions get a free volley on the drones first The helions in the main realise they can get more done by wasting mining time and distracting so they try to stay alive rather than diving for more kills - distracts and gives the opportunity to get 7 more drones on the 3rd
From here it’s just Dark desperately trying to do EVERYTHING perfectly to get back in the game
Playing from behind Focus hard on a few areas in the game, ignore other areas that aren’t 100% always necessary. Skipping some of those areas might be a risk - but you need to take risks to get back in the game. If you try to do everything as normal, you’ll just be behind in everything. Dark focuses just on lings, banes, upgrades and a strong mineral income. Only puts back on 1 gas at first, saturating the other gas in the main as he’s getting closer to saturation again. Fast 4th base Creep
In LoTV ultras are so tempting that players usually try to use them as the comeback tool. However since they’re so far away, I actually wish Dark tried to stay on just 3 gas and win with ONLY ling-bane. He knows he’ll be behind in the engagements, and I think having more lings for the engages and counterattacks and looking to get back in the game through a nice engagement or two could have a better chance of getting him back in this. It’s still not like “wow this will just make you win” But it might take Dark’s chances from 20% up to 30% Puts more pressure on Byun - more chance of him making the mistakes. The counterattacks were too small to be effective this game - they never really forced byun to leave a big contingent at home or seriously disrupt his flow
Byun has no info on whether you’re trying that or not
First person Dark view from when the pressures really start ~7-10
Byun’s single ANTI COUNTER mine saves him so many times - something every terran should consider doing vs zergs that counterattack a lot
The face of the man who used every ounce of energy in his body to give us the best game of 2016 - Jaw-dropping skill. How did he make a comeback on a Terran-favoured map against the seemingly unstoppable Byun? I answer that with 50% analysis, 50% stunned amazement in today's daily:
Byun’s 2-1-1 into double tankivac marine +1 push -
Standard 2-1-1 Only gets 1 queen and a small creep delay - Dark is well prepared 6:00 3rd CC Super late
Forgets to add his +2 armour for a long time - 90 second delay
Darks super standard safe play Same opening as all series - mega safe Gas pool hatch 2 off gas @ ovie speed Back on gas 3:50
7:00 - Sick little baneling flank hidden in the empty 4th base almost catches the marines you really need a nerchio-surround against a player of Byun’s caliber. Right at this moment pre-bane-speed the marines are so daunting for the lings to engage, and the tanks don’t let the banes close in, it’s a tough spot where a better surrround and almost pure ling with just a few banes peppered in is probably ideal. This would have been the perfect response vs anyone else - but ended up being quite a bad trade for Dark
4th base and macro hatch potentially could start a bit sooner - struggles for larva during the assauly Greedy extra 3 drones
Darks play from behind
7:30 - super uncomfrotable position - already losing mining on his natural, counter attack is blocked. Forced into pretty bad trades Expands away from Byuns push out of necessity despite the problematic cliffs nearby
Had to pull every single queen Never gets 3-3 Realises that an answer to the libs is far more valuable usage of his limited gas Incredible multi-tasking
10:00 onwards first person view from Dark - the most godlike defence ever The whole intense period where he avoids libs, moves spores, focuses them with queens while microing 2 battles is INSANE
14:00 - SICK LING SURROUND - revenge of the Winner mine gets 19 ling kills
16:55 - focus-fires baneling flank in the middle of a huge fight - insanee
DROPS A CREEP TUMOR IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT LOL - his multi-tasking instincts take over - he knows how spent all his actions are and has to get the most out of every moment, rather than look back he throws it in at the end of a sequence of micro actions - super cute
Constantly goes in - forces stim + sniping medivacs every engage so the bio steadily gets worn down simplly by the way Dark constantly feints engages Also taxes Byuns APM and disrupts his rhythm Terran bio is incredibly sensitive especially against the explosive lingbane - can’t afford to ignore these feints or the real one will kill him
Dark’s ability to expand to an awkward area of the map and then defend 4 locations at once consistently for several minutes forced Byun to focus on the frontal engagements - Dark was just as good in those, and showed exceptional skill expanding constantly in the midst of the chaos. The constant feinting to force stims and sniping of the valuable air units whittled Byun down Hitting Byun’s exposed orbital commands on his 5th in the lategame is what ended up pushing the scales his way. Perhaps Byun taking a 5th CC as a planetary could have allowed him to win Potentially adding ghosts also. Remember that Dark never got 3-3 and was always one bad engagement away from having no answer to the liberators
and Byun takes a ballsy gamble, hoping it’s not cross-spawns.\ Gets the fastest possible rush distance (⅓ chance)
Talk through pressure from Byuns side Dark takes a little more damage than he should Byuns micro is godlike but a little luck like hitting the lings the moment they pop from the eggs into the reapers etc Great pulling back of weak reapers Always keeps some reapers on cooldown
Talk through response and mistakes from Darks side Dark tries to do the True style mass ling defence with a few extra queens - However: He forgets to pull off gas - you only want that gas if you’re going all-in with ling-bane in response He gets supply blocked on 36 - can’t capitalise on the moment ling speed kicks in to surround and shut down the reapers As the reaper count grows it gets harder and harder Getting out of his choke is super difficult Goes 2-base evo chambers which reeks of desperation
3-rax reaper gets him way ahead Dark scouts the late 3rd rax and should know this is a 3-rax reaper. The rax is far too late too late to be the first or 2nd rax off a CC-first
This is a game that flows on from the previous one - Dark expended so much energy to survive the previous game
Some small yet fatal errors in this most intense moment, tired and drained and under the pressure of Byun’s most intense aggression - on the map where he really didn’t expect it
Byun rotates between frontal pushes and drops + multiprong constantly making it impossible for Dark to have the units in the correct place. Dark can’t get map control cos the army is right outside He can’t see when the army splits into many drops and has to react last second and TRY to micro + split correctly with no warning Byun does make some small mistakes but the pressure is on Dark and ultimately he takes way more drastic drone/mining losses and bad trades than the few good defences he can pull off
Really cool unique style Showtime showed vs Byun in the ro16 Blizzcon This build looks a lot like the generic macro fast colossus openings that Stats and Zest have been using a lot But from there it becomes quite different Rather than transitioning into storm to counter vikings and help survive then tempests to counter range liberators - Showtime adds disruptors to have EVERY TYPE OF AOE and then controls the map, counter-attacks a lot and finds a way to play a much more ASSERTIVE style of PvT
Earlygame: Probe scout waits to see if it’s a reaper or marine out of the barracks 1:45 marine pops Robo-twilight-3g Gases on natural as close to saturation Colossus bay 3rd base Very defensive pylon setup Lots of observers to spot drops Gas on 3rd base delayed a long time because 3rd is very late for byun - needs to make more adepts to ensure he survives More gates Glaives Double forge Templar archives After 3-4 collosi into disruptors DT tech a little later Then finally storm tech
Why this did Showtime use this style?
We saw in many games that Terran players would try to hit a viking + bio timing to kill colossus players and most of the game was decided by this attack. With Showtime’s style he adds the huge power of the disruptors so early into his composition it makes it even harder for Terran to engage. 12:30 - Watch how Showtime zones out the bio with the disruptor balls whilst blinking forward to snipe vikings with his stalkers. This makes it SUPER hard for Terran to force an engage Normally Terran likes to poke with the vikings superior range and force the Protoss to engage into him, but Showtime just seems to be able to buy a little bit more space for his stalkers to come forward and hit the vikings.
Control 5 - main army + collosus Ctrl + click to pull back/focus-fire 6 - templar 7 - disruptors Very important to have these spellcasters on separate hotkeys to manually control them very quickly
Storm is mostly for smashing the vikings and defending drops DTs and adept warpins offer super powerful counter-attack options DTs offer great drop defence and are the trump card in a basetrade Disruptors give you AOE that can’t be countered by the vikings - helps you survive hard viking timings
Transition?
There’s nothing stopping you from going for very delayed tempests behind this and playing it out as standard - kiting with tempests and using spread out templar to storm all over them whenever they try to close the distance with the tempests OR you can really focus on winning at this stage of the game through getting a super high gateway count. 15-20 gateways for huge reinforce Massive reinforce of units during the big fight to overwhelm with sheer numbers Massive counter-attack warp-ins
Can’t wait to see this play out to a later midgame/lategame. Fingers crossed to see Showtime vs Maru or TY at the WESG main event!
Really appreciate the straight from the cuff notes. I don't have time to watch now. But I do have time to glance over the notes, start thinking about what the video is about, and then when I do watch it I'm listening more closely and following instead of hearing it for a first time.
On November 21 2016 17:01 Probe1 wrote: Really appreciate the straight from the cuff notes. I don't have time to watch now. But I do have time to glance over the notes, start thinking about what the video is about, and then when I do watch it I'm listening more closely and following instead of hearing it for a first time.
Thanks man.
np mate, it's just an exact copy paste of the notes I write up beforehand when prepping and then glance at every now and then while doing the show - figure it's helpful for some people so easy habit to just always share those
On November 29 2016 21:19 Aelendis wrote: Hey PiG, Could you make a daily about fighting carriers in PvZ? That would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for the awsome content!
Cyclone - 6 range Lack of micro-ability 6 range - quite powerful a boost - definitely something lower players will struggle with a lot at first - but my feeling is they should be able to get on top of it Damage - Nate says in his response to “double the cyclones damage so it actually does something” I think the problem is mainly the drastic difference between damage to light and armoured. I think the cyclone in its effort to not overlap with the hellbat ends up being this incredibly gas intensive unit which sucks at shooting any light units up front in a composition - it just doesn’t do enough damage to non-armoured units. Armour points and armour upgrades drastically reduce its effectiveness - especially to non-armoured units It can suddenly perform really well if it gets in range of: Marauders/tanks in tvt. Roaches in ZvT Stalkers in TvP But even with the range upgrade its hard for those situations to be forced. - zergs avoid roaches mostly, protoss have adepts/chargelots up front and marines mixed into bio make them less effective there also The loss of cyclone as the earlygame anti-air/destroyer of all bullshit unit is probably the hardest thing to adjust to. Before you could open blind cyclone vs P/T and it would shut down so much early harass/attacks - pylon rushes, oracles, banshees, etc. This has made oracle openings far more powerful as Terran is forced to sit back even more in the earlygame of TvP - we might see Toss players running away with games through greedy play behind oracle openings due to the lack of range of builds from Terran because of this. Keep in mind the Cyclone wasn’t really the ideal fix to this necessarily, but it at least did get that job done
Hydra Range is pretty extreme On the positive this extends their usefulness in the midgame - and as a result allows hydra-based styles to not be as all-in where a single 2-2- roach-hydra timing or a single hydra-lurker-ling attack needs to win the game I love anything that extends the midgame and slows down players rushing up to tier 3 units. However when you have a unit which already dealt massive damage and was a “glass cannon” that was very hit or miss - it makes things awkward. Keep in mind already many players used hydra-lurker-ling to great effect in early lotv, and Nerchio and Elazer were still winning games vs top opponents very recently with this style. Already if you weren’t prepared the fights would often be very one-sided where the hydra-lurker would either shred your army before you could properly close with it - or you would crush it and it would look terrible. Now the extra range makes the damage even more extreme. Because the upgrades are split the hydras will take longer to get mobility off-creep. I fear this won’t stop people hitting hydra timings though and it’ll just be even more one-sided who wins the fights. Either the Protoss rolls over them with enough chargelot/immortal, or the zerg gets set up and spirals out of control super fast. I really like Nates idea of a health buff here - +20hp to make them more viable rather than
Outranging planetaries, all the core protoss units etc. Even storm and disruptors are much harder to land on hydras now without having your HT/Disruptors sniped down Personally I’m convinced ling-bane-hydra will also absolutely destroy any bio army that doesn’t have tanks in it.
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
Tanks Shred armoured units. Still not really amazing at shredding light units in some scenarios - but when they’re clumped it’s still brutal so I’m ok with where it’s at right now. Hard to tell if we’ll decide it’s too strong or weak in certain situations.
Swarm-Host Way too cheap right now. However it’s such a specialty unit we might not see it a lot in pro games for a little while. At a certain point though the way the SH works will make it insanely powerful on certain maps - simply gettng a few of these will force an opponent to get on the map and defend rather than letting you harass constantly. - This will pair very well with big mid-tier swarmy zerg armies that want the enemy to come into the open for a nice surround. This is a change which will be quite overpowered but people won’t use it a lot for a while so it won’t get nerfed for a very long time.
Baneling Buff Not too drastic just yet - but definitely a big boost to zerg mid-tier armies. I love the extended midgame - but combined with the hydra and other buffs I fear this as a core change might be too much of a boost for zerg. Testing
^This can only be allowed if ravens are an accessible standard unit for Terran to use every game - they aren’t. The tech lab on port isn’t needed for anything else so it’s uncomfortable to make. Right now there are some fun turret harass builds and if this sticks around - that might become a necessary opening for Terran. The issue there is that severely limits Terrans options and allows opposing races to take liberties with their own play.
2 adept +msc into expand then 1 stalker then +1 adept. Somewhat fast nexus - anything this dies to? 5:00 - sick shade onto sentry + hot pickup This really destroys their ability to scout - do you ever consider doing an all-in after denying vision with this move? This + obs hunting seems like a nice way to head for a big adept timing without the opponent realising. Maybe even a 2g, 35probe 8-gate adept attack? 5:40 - too deep Robo a little greedy Twilight off 2g Up to disruptors 2nd robo as 3rd gets saturated? Charge Cheaper counters that can shred cannons/stalkers and don’t need as much micro as disruptors Also decent in engages when everything gets messy or if you get a nice flank
Macro blink disruptor battles
Control groups
Vision Obs Halluc Oracle
11:00-12:00 - talk us through what you’re doing - tell me to pause if you want to freeze on a certain point
Counterattacks
15:00 abandoning 4th
Comeback potential - as long as you have up a decent blink disruptor army - even if only half their army you can still come back with disruptor shots - so the engagements become everything and it’s MORE ok to give up a base since a bad fight defending a base will def lose you your disruptors and the game - but keeping an army alive and avoiding a bad fight can allow you to prolong and potentially come back
PvP Frozen Temple vs Dear
Questions:
4-adept opening How would this have looked if he went 4-stalker? Blink over glaives? Would you always use that? In my eyes the strength of this opening is if you do get to set up outside their base you get to see EVERYTHING and be quite greedy with your followup Prism first - no obs/immortal Twilight and robo off 2g Great warning of the followup attack so you’re ready just in time to defend that 6:00 defence - 8:00 - abandoning the 3rd base If you didn’t have vision of the 3rd do you think you might have tried to defend this? 10:30 - stalkers or adepts in this situation? Stalkers last longer, but deal less damage. Adepts deal more damage but also die really fast. I would always struggle to choose the right unit
Have a game vs Eonblu (rehearse his play beforehand to make sure its what i want)
Earlygame map control + scouting Key areas are always the same no matter your race you can always put an adept, marine, probe/scv ling or overlord watching for: Outside their base - to see them moving out Outside your base - to see an attack coming in Through the middle of the map on the direct path between your bases To see where armies move and rotate to and be prepared for which angle they’re coming from
Get him to do a big 2-base push
I drone to “60 drones” or if I’m T or P I don’t add 2nd factory/2nd starport/extra upgrades unless I have extra money Just pull back Mass units Try to delay the fight until I catch up in units However the more time before he engages, the more my army catches up to his in size because I have more economy, production and eventually upgrades and tech kicking in ahead of him
Use defensive positioning to survive
After a certain amount of time - I should have more stuff than him This is because of that bigger economy having time to kick in Now you can push back out and re-establish map control, hopefully before he has time to sneak any attacks in from angles you weren’t expecting Your opponent might have some perfect engagement angle setup prepared - so still take regular precautions which you should almost always take in any game before moving out Send a cheap or free/invisible unit like changeling/observer ahead to scout his army location/size/setup If he’s still just massing units and you’re unsure if you can engage - you can always wait a little longer adding a bit more tech/upgrades/army size to ensure you can crush a frontal battle before getting back out there Just remember not to wait too long - the more time you give them the more chance of them being very greedy back at home and catching up that way OR of sliding sneaky counter-attacks in
Now Eonblu swaps into just nonstop counterattack/drop/sneaky attack mode I explain all the different angles I need to block - how to make sure my economy is 100% protected
vision everywhere etc Constant fight for it so you can't be surprised + can surprise opponent
You can't always have map control When to give it up - But always reclaim it at some point - if you have to stay at home it's because you're behind in army - so you should be ahead in economy or tech - after that kicks in - you should be able to have a stronger army and push back on the map. If you're simply too far behind you will need to simply try to counterattack, clean up his spotter units and keep trying to find the right angle to hit his economy away from his arm
What I'm mainly hearing is you're interested in info about map control. This is something quite fundamental but very important. For zergs it's very simple because you have very cheap expendable units (lings) that should always be watching everything. For Protoss and Terran it's a little more complex - however for the most part its the same idea of - try to see everything so you aren't surprised by stuff. If you give up map control don't accept this as a permanent situation but try and fight for it back.
3) Not sure I understand what you're talking about here. Are you saying that map control isn't important?
No I dont think map control is unimportant. What I mean is first as you say Map control is hard to get as you mentioned for Protoss (and for Terran) because their armies are more expensive and slow. But additional here the part a little bit more explained
Until later midgame most people still try to follow a build order from Pro Gamers. Those Build Orders are *really* tight and don't leave much room for additional Units, you would need to fight for map *control*. Every unit you spend to fight for map control is a delay for additional tech.
On January 08 2017 14:13 Cascade wrote: really impressive run pig, even taking two maps from scarlett! :o
Congratulations!
Thanks mate! Couple of flukes and lucky games in there but happy to know I can at least put up a good fight with the pros.
Felt pretty dirty after my map 2 vs Ryung yesterday. Ling-bane all-in about to move out - he decides to dive helions onto creep. Oh ok I'll kill those thanks
On January 08 2017 14:13 Cascade wrote: really impressive run pig, even taking two maps from scarlett! :o
Congratulations!
Thanks mate! Couple of flukes and lucky games in there but happy to know I can at least put up a good fight with the pros.
Felt pretty dirty after my map 2 vs Ryung yesterday. Ling-bane all-in about to move out - he decides to dive helions onto creep. Oh ok I'll kill those thanks
nothing lucky about those games vs scarlett, you played some solid games. i bet you anything 3/4 players lose to that speedling presure she does (if they opend gasless like you did)
is zerg your main race? or were u race picking? cuz i watched you stream once as Protoss and im not familiar with you
On January 08 2017 14:13 Cascade wrote: really impressive run pig, even taking two maps from scarlett! :o
Congratulations!
Thanks mate! Couple of flukes and lucky games in there but happy to know I can at least put up a good fight with the pros.
Felt pretty dirty after my map 2 vs Ryung yesterday. Ling-bane all-in about to move out - he decides to dive helions onto creep. Oh ok I'll kill those thanks
nothing lucky about those games vs scarlett, you played some solid games. i bet you anything 3/4 players lose to that speedling presure she does (if they opend gasless like you did)
is zerg your main race? or were u race picking? cuz i watched you stream once as Protoss and im not familiar with you
Yeah I played as a pro zerg for many years, only started learning T/P and playing them a lot around the time I started the daily, about 7-8 months ago. I've been tempted to start playing P and T a lot more in tournaments though, and probably will soon. It's always lots of fun and great motivation to learn when you lose a tournament as a new race
THIS WEEKS ICYFAR: WoL - Show us your games using iconic Wings of Liberty Strategies in 2017! - Send submissions to eonblu95@gmail.com as attachment AND only ICYFAR as title!.
On January 10 2017 11:56 tili wrote: I'm just seeing this thread. Looking forward to starting at the beginning... thanks for making all of these, PiG!
Thnx! If you go to the youtube channel there's race-specific playlists as well as other ones splitting up "What if Wednesdays?" and "Pro Talk" episodes etc. so you can check out specific categories that way
Would you be willing to do a daily or at least a section of a daily and run down your thoughts on the 4 new ladder maps? (Or would you just end up waiting til they are live so you can play a handful of games on them?) I don't play sc2 much (just co-op usually) but I still follow streams/tournaments so unfortunately I don't watch too many of your dailies, but...I am a map maker so anything map related I love watching.
On January 11 2017 12:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Would you be willing to do a daily or at least a section of a daily and run down your thoughts on the 4 new ladder maps? (Or would you just end up waiting til they are live so you can play a handful of games on them?) I don't play sc2 much (just co-op usually) but I still follow streams/tournaments so unfortunately I don't watch too many of your dailies, but...I am a map maker so anything map related I love watching.
On January 11 2017 12:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Would you be willing to do a daily or at least a section of a daily and run down your thoughts on the 4 new ladder maps? (Or would you just end up waiting til they are live so you can play a handful of games on them?) I don't play sc2 much (just co-op usually) but I still follow streams/tournaments so unfortunately I don't watch too many of your dailies, but...I am a map maker so anything map related I love watching.
I think map map design and how it influences play is massively complicated. It would take a vast amount of thought, preparation and consultation to talk about this stuff in any way I'd be happy to present in a VoD. Maybe I'll go over a past map pool in detail at the end of a season? And then compare my conclusions with the proposed new pool.
Whatever you would feel comfortable with! It's one of the biggest things I love hearing about and just getting any additional thoughts and feelings about whatever map pool would be interesting imo. Although yeah, if you wouldn't feel as comfortable talking about it, then no worries! Was just wondering! :D Keep it up PiG, great work!
On January 11 2017 12:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Would you be willing to do a daily or at least a section of a daily and run down your thoughts on the 4 new ladder maps? (Or would you just end up waiting til they are live so you can play a handful of games on them?) I don't play sc2 much (just co-op usually) but I still follow streams/tournaments so unfortunately I don't watch too many of your dailies, but...I am a map maker so anything map related I love watching.
I think map map design and how it influences play is massively complicated. It would take a vast amount of thought, preparation and consultation to talk about this stuff in any way I'd be happy to present in a VoD. Maybe I'll go over a past map pool in detail at the end of a season? And then compare my conclusions with the proposed new pool.
id be interested in even just a basic walkthrough of the maps, u can take two players and they see one part of the map totally differently
Abyssal bottom spawn - top of ramp, 3 spaces to the right. Full wall the rock ramp - closer path You will need to wall more behind the rocks later on
Bel’shir Vestige Power field not touching cliff Move pylon 4 spaces/2 pylons to the left (bottom spawn)
Newkirk Right spawn Start on left of ramp One space down, and 3 to the right. Should be 3 spaces above and 3 spaces to the left
Paladino Right Spawn In line with the destructible debris/in line with the cliff Down 4 spaces
3 spaces down 3 3x3 buildings to create a full walls Looks awkward but no more vulnerable than a regular pylon in wall Only downside is hard to wall-off behind it when being busted
Proxima Station Top spawn Pylon lined up above gas, right hand side. 3 gates for full solid walloff
Cactus Valley Power field just off the rocks/doodads 2 3x3 easy
Honor grounds Bottom right spawn Pylon at back 3x3 structures Leave gap on north of it so easiest point to reach all 3 bases
This is a strong, solid opening that does some nice fast pressure whilst getting a tank up at home to defend any counter aggression. You hit a fast 6 marine widow mine drop in the main base whilst running a widow mine into the natural, following up with a liberator.
From there you have solid 3-rax production and pump bio, mine, medivac and can harass and attack the Protoss to death.
Build Order:
Note on How I write Terran builds: I will always write what each tech structure (factory, starport) has to do directly underneath it rather than in chronological order. This way you learn to remember each structures place in the build and how the addons swap. The order of what it does will be indented, for example:
Barracks 3xmarines Tech Lab Stim Marauder production
The actual build:
No scout with this order - if you want to scout factor in that everything will be slightly delayed and adjust accordingly 15 Gas-first 16 rax 19 orbital 19 reaper 20 Factory 2xwidow mine Tech Lab Tank Swap off and build reactor 21 2nd gas 20 reactor 22 depot @Factory - Starport Medivac Liberator Reactor 40 depot (nonstop depots from now - not listed in build order) 41 2nd rax (medivac at 75%) 54/4:10 3rd rax (next to factory) + 3rd gas Swap onto tech lab as soon as finished 60/4:50 - ebay 5:00 - 3-rax should be situated on tech labs and reactors, start shields/stim then concussive shells and produce marauders and marines nonstop. Factory and Starport should be building their reactors at this time then going into constant mine/medivac production
Later on: It’s flexible from here, I mention different paths in my daily video. However in this game Maru does a standard aggressive follow-up with no gaps in unit production. He eventually drops a 3rd base on location around 7:00 and then a 4th and 5th barracks as he gets the money for it
Different Transitions and Stages of Learning
“I’m not good enough to keep rallying etc. but Protoss just gets out control because I can’t attack from 3 sides constantly like maru!”
Try powering (skipping a round of unit production) after the liberator pressure when you're first learning the build. Get your 5-rax production and 3rd base up, get double upgrades going and then go aim to hit one very powerful 2-1 timing attack to overwhelm your opponent. This will help you focus on the macro order without distracting yourself trying to drop all over the place.
Once you're comfortable with the build you can have nonstop production like Maru does and drop your opponent to deaath.
The aim is to attack like Maru and seamlessly hit 2-3 locations at once forcing them to spread their defences. Then regroup and dive on one piece of their split army
Lately there’s been quite a large Protoss culture of whining. I play all the races these days, but have played zerg for over 6 years now. I’ve seen periods like this for all races, but especially experienced it as a zerg. I’ve been a big part of it. Check out this piece of idiocy:
^OMG so embarrasing lol - its just me bitching and complaining and bringing up random pieces of asymmetry in the game to justify “why terran is imba”. It’s absolutely empty bullshit analysis. Every race has their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own bullshit! Use it! Learn to combat your opponents!
“No way to scout” “No idea what’s coming” “Have to get lucky with scouting” “No way to stop zerg unless you can see it coming”
I disagree with most of this stuff I’ll be using a tight glaive pressure opening with a fast 3rd to show 1) How a tight build can survive just about ANYTHING And all the details that allow that to be the case! Showing a whole bunch of examples - including some mistakes
G1 - where things go wrong and I still come back G2 - Ling bane one G3 - Basics of scouting for 3rd base and then adjusting
Details
Solid walloff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WbIhB2hryU Wedge those units in between minerals Pylons placed to create chokes Extra pylons at 3rd Hold position in wall Always send 2nd/3rd adept to check for the drop! Or just put a probe on patrol Never rely on a pylon -overlord has more vision and can avoid it and surprise you with a slightly later drop out of vision Keep warping in Only overcharge protected pylons - not ones at the front Always fall back steadily and constantly use chokes Never go into the open, as long as zerg can’t surround you you’re usually good Add extra gates as soon as the zerg shows an aggressive stance - you normally go up to 7 gates soon after dropping your 2nd tech structure (SG/Robo) anyway. Just part of being safe.
Sim-city and walling off at your natural if they go for it - don’t get drawn right into the open Never give up! The number of times it’s felt like I’m way behind, lost my 3rd, retook it and then realised zerg still had shit all economy is insane! Sometimes I even am a little behind but since the zergs tech is so late you can do some serious magic with immortals/archons etc Shade adepts out front to have a look around! MSC sit out front to give you some warning Often you bank gas warping in so many adepts - remember to drop a templar archives as soon as you stabilise so you can add archons and have a beastly counterattack! Even just 3-4 archons with a few immortals and some gateway units is an incredibly powerful army vs a low econ zergu
Ok I held on, maybe I took some damage, but what the fuck is he doing now? I can’t scout!
SG → phoenix/oracle for scouting Robo→ Hallucination if you’ve still got any energy, otherwise prism to put on counter pressure.
Not only that but generally when you hold - you’re ahead. If you don’t take direct economy damage you should be way up, but you’re a bit blind. The best thing to do is “just go fucking kill him”. A big adept/immortal/archon push, blink/immo/archon, something like that. You can go for this sort of push and still add say a forge, a 4th base as you push across. But at least you have a pre-set plan of “I’m gunna get over there and try to kill shit… and at least see what’s happening”. It’s really important to have a direction and a plan to get back in your opponents side of the map - especially vs zerg since they can be so greedy with pure drone production.
If you went phoenix maybe you want to play a longer game cos you have vision
“What if they just hide the roach ling and then kill the adepts when they shade?”
Now don’t get me wrong there is a small range of super well executed gambles that zerg can take that are nearly impossible to scout, like a roach-ling timing that waits for the adepts to shade out and THEN surrounds them instantly - the amount of timing and positioning to make this work consistently is INSANE though - it’s really not reliable at all 1) adepts will rekt a lot of lings if the surround isn’t great 2) adepts can hug terrain to survive a long time 3) roaches are slow as shit and guessing when/where the shade will end is risky business, super hard to pull this off cleanly
Build Order: 18g 47s 17p 51s 17h 2 lings + queen Ling speed (leave on gas) Straight to 3 queens @natural finishes - pull 2 off gas 36 3rd hatch 3:30 - back on gas 3:35 (47) - Roach warren + 2xgas @RW - 7 roaches 70 (4:30) - 2x evo Melee Carapace Upgrades 75 (4:50) Lair
Strategy/Analysis Great vs Helion Openings You can just defend everything - but the mobility of the helions has made it really hard - especially with vikings clearing up overlord vision and libs/minedrops/helion drops coming in from all sorts of unexpected angles Forces a huge overreaction as the helions can’t deal with this Is the most minimal commitment to make Terran piss off Normally Terran just want to be dicks in the current meta near the top there’s helions darting into bases from all angles, liberators seiging up mineral lines, helion and mine drops - all sorts of crazy multi-prong with many opportunities for big damage - all whilst the Terran is greedier than a fat leprechaun This way you can make them piss off home, and force them to do things that aren’t greedy like make seige tanks. Sometimes you get to kill lots of things like depots and ebays - that’s pretty awesome
Byul’s Shoutcraft kings games
Vs Byun - hits 5:30 on crossmap AFTER going ovie speed (48 drones as he hits)
Vs Keen: - hits 5:30 (no ovie speed, 55 drones)
Byul’s GSL Games
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/120556078 G1 vs Alive - Alive didn’t do his homework! Helions overcommit = MASS LINGS AND GO FOR BROKE! No more helions behind that wall destroying the lings - knows he has a good chance of breaking him with a much larger committment G3 - nice pressure again just gets the ebays
“My biggest problem is with decision making, when to go roaches or banelings, when to make blink or charge, what does scouting mean?”
Every game is different, SC is complex. Learning to understand the games fundamental concepts is the most important part of Starcraft. That way you can analyse every game individually and come to your own conclusions about what makes a good reaction, what scouting means, how to adjust your gameplay after a streak of losses. Understanding of those fundamental concepts informs your ability to make decisions. How you line up those decisions is where a lot of the strategy comes from.
For a beginning player we often tell them to just stick to basic units and explore the game whilst by improving their macro - building workers and supply buildings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMBgp-OA9Jc)
However at a certain point you need to focus on more than simply building more stuff and start understanding the fundamental concepts which we measure all situations in Starcraft by.
Army Value Upgrades are key, not just 1/1 etc but also bane speed, cloak etc. Tech
More complicated:
Army Composition vs their composition How do I know which units are good vs what?
But generally just a mixture of your own experiences combined with watching pros, and talking to your friends/opponents Even pros are regularly coming across a composition used in a different way, at a different point in the game and going “woah - I didn’t realise that was good” and having to think about how they got there, is there a weakness? How to adjust either their army or their timing accordingly. PacoMike’s heavy VR PvP
!!!14:00!! -
Bigger zerg army vs EFFICIENT P army storm/archons/air dominance = SH want to get across the map to be effective - not good at defending because P can just pull back My knowledge of SH as a powerful aggressive unit tells me to pressure. Don’t just do things for no reason - seek to understand If I did this pressure vs ravager ling bane I’d get jumped on and torn apart!
But PiG, who’s ahead?
Positioning is also something to take into account when looking at how the armies match up. If you have tanks/libs seiged at P’s natural, doesn’t matter how big P’s army is as it walks into the choke point of death!
Well now we se can see everything we can see he was in a great position, but he needed to find a way to get me back on my side of the map so he could split his sh and hit all my bases
!!!15:00!!! -
As I pull back from the locusts Vivid counters with lings Knows he can’t keep defending or SH aren’t getting value Knowledge of how our units matchup and how his work allows him to prioritise the SUPER IMPORTANT ling runby.
From here how do I play?
PSYCHOLOGY - UNDERSTANDING HOW YOUR OPPONENTS PLAYING
Recognise he’s stuck on Lair tech No crazy creep, no crazy economy Scouting constantly for a sudden boom in econ/hive Harassment doubles as this AND buys time for me to get more stuff More time I have = definite win with higher quality army Scouting like a madman for SH/ling counters More OBS/Oracles to counter his surprise counter tactics (he relies on these a lot) Single VR since no AA! Make use of a weakness in his composition
Pig mate. No one give a fuck. For your own sake you should admit defeat. Stop trying to develop a career from discussing starcraft 2 strategies because its only going to get worse. Its a dwindling game with zero mass market appeal. Quit while you are ahead and get consider a viable and realistic career doing something else. Don't want to see you unable to accept things arnt going to work out with your own realisation and ending with you doing something stupid to yourself. Just stop mate. Its over.
Lately I’ve heard many people say “Zerg don’t need build orders”, today I’m going to tell you why they’re completely, absolutely wrong, and maybe a little bit right.
Straight into replay
Replay of Leenock vs Keen showing. 12:00 show
With Terran, and to a lesser extent Protoss, having a tight build order that covers 95% of options and then relies mostly on positional adjustments and execution as well as some major reactions can usually get you by up to a decent league. However with Zerg you always need to be a lot more flexible. You will constantly be faced with the choice between building drones, or building army units. The opportunity to commit everything to aggression, all economy, or a bit of both. The entire goal of zerg is often summarised as “Always try to put off building army until the last possible moment so you have a strong economy” - and this one key to how zerg works is integral to being a strong well-rounded player. You need to be flexible, changing your production to fit the occasion, and always ready to change your plan at a moment's notice. When you play zerg you really have to think of yourself as an almost parasitic organism that relies on your opponent to make a certain move or direction so that you can react with it.
Lately, I’ve heard many people spouting this phrase “Zerg don’t need build orders” and I think people are trying to touch on that flexible and reactive nature of zerg. However since Zerg has to be so flexible, I think build orders still exist, just in a different form. For Zerg a build won’t be as strictly outlined in terms of supply or game timer, though those can still be used as benchmarks. Instead Zerg builds have a set of strong rules that force the player to reach their goal. For instance “Stay on just 2 gases until you saturate 3 mineral lines in PvZ” is a rule designed to ensure the zerg has enough mineral income to flood out the lings, roaches and queens needed to defend surprise attacks, whilst building a solid economic foundation.
These sorts of rules become more and more important for zerg, because of the flexible gameplay zergs find themselves in, it’s the only way they can ensure they meet consistent situations in game where their execution and understanding improve through experience.
Inevitably as you move to the upper rungs of ladder, builds become not just a system of rules, but also an entire set of reactions that change and adjust those rules in certain situations. For instance against a fast Protoss 2-base all-in using immortals and sentries, it’s very important to have a lot of ravagers. So when I scout no 3rd base from the protoss and think this is coming, I deviate and drop a 3rd gas earlier than I normally would.
I had a realisation when I was first learning zerg that knowing when to adjust these rules based on the situation was what allowed me to play zerg in a truly flexible and beautiful manner. However I never would have had any real consistency in my play if I didn’t already have the other rules. It was the original “build order” that allowed me to encounter the same situations many times and develop set responses.
So build orders are actually very important as zerg to help you learn how to adjust and react and play flexibly. Setting up that solid economic foundation and encountering situations over and over again is what allows us to learn when and how far we need to adapt.
Another great example of this is vs Stargate play in ZvP. I used to always struggle with phoenix play, and I still do if I haven’t played against it in a while. The reason is it forces such a drastic reaction that I sometimes forget some pieces of it. Because those phoenix are so mobile they will always kill some overlords and drones, and force spore crawlers. The mineral cost of it all adds up so much, that if I try to get my lair, upgrades, and army units at the normal times, my mineral income will be in the dumps. So I need to remind myself whenever playing phoenix to delay my gases even longer than normal and focus on droning hard to replace those losses.
So to summarise - I think zerg builds are incredibly important, but they are a bit different. Zerg play is always more flexible than the other races and so having some form of consistency through tight rules you follow with each style is very important. Memorising triggers or timings for all your structures, lair, hive and upgrades will really help you gain consistency. And as you gain consistency you start to learn all of the many beautiful adjustments that allow you to adapt to any and every situation with the grace and killer instinct that defines the swarm.
Thanks for listening to my thoughts today guys,
Please send in your replays for ICYFAR “A gentleman never attacks without warning” - you must dance a unit in enemy vision before you attack, info is in the youtube description and in twitch chat.
Don’t forget to hug a cactus, lick a penguin and of course, punch a watermelon to the moon!
I’ll see you guys next time, goodbye and goodnight!
Terran and Protoss players asked me about "The PiG Daily #32 - Learning How to Scout - Beginner Basics" because PiG plays Zerg in this video. First of all: It does not matter that he plays Zerg, because the basic concepts are the same for every race.
So I made my first video "Tribute to PiG". Perhaps it will help you.
"But what's really important is to always send a worker scout. (...) GosWser back in the days, a player who like never stopped Drone-Scouting, because he always said, that it takes the chance out of the matchup. >It allows me to see what my opponent has done at the start of the game.< (...) This is something for every race, every matchup, and you can do this for your entire StarCraft career, but you should definitely do it for the first few month, right up until you hit diamond." (Quote from PiG)
I strongly recommend that, too.
The video contains four major concepts presented in Pig's Daily: - Step #0: Worker-Scout - Step #1: Map-Vision - Step #2: Signs of greed/aggression - Scout the front!
On March 08 2017 20:53 NeoBlade wrote: Terran and Protoss players asked me about "The PiG Daily #32 - Learning How to Scout - Beginner Basics" because PiG plays Zerg in this video. First of all: It does not matter that he plays Zerg, because the basic concepts are the same for every race.
So I made my first video "Tribute to PiG". Perhaps it will help you.
"But what's really important is to always send a worker scout. (...) GosWser back in the days, a player who like never stopped Drone-Scouting, because he always said, that it takes the chance out of the matchup. >It allows me to see what my opponent has done at the start of the game.< (...) This is something for every race, every matchup, and you can do this for your entire StarCraft career, but you should definitely do it for the first few month, right up until you hit diamond." (Quote from PiG)
I strongly recommend that, too.
The video contains four major concepts presented in Pig's Daily: - Step #0: Worker-Scout - Step #1: Map-Vision - Step #2: Signs of greed/aggression - Scout the front!
All the greatest things in life have a natural rhythm: music and art, how you relate to your friends and family. There’s a sort of natural flow to things when they just feel right. This rhythm is what we feel when we’re in our element, expressing ourselves in a way that suits our personality, our thoughts and our feelings. If we think about Starcraft it’s no different, it’s a blank canvas filled with infinite possibilities, finding our rhythm should be easy, and yet it’s the complete opposite. Starcraft is a lot like painting a picture or singing a song, except imagine someone by your side constantly painting over every stroke you make, or trying to drown out your singing with each verse. That’s kind of the way I see rhythm in Starcraft - it’s something which can be elusive, purely because there’s another person, behind another computer screen, and their only goal is to kick your ass.
Start Replay at 8:30
Before we get too deep into the theory here - let’s quickly discuss what I mean by rhythm. Here we have a famous game from the 2016 Blizzcon finals where Byun continually hit Dark from all sides and yet somehow Dark fought back from behind and won in an epic contest of wills. This game’s really cool because it shows the best zerg in the world somehow not losing his rhythm where any other player would have fallen apart. We’ll be watching from Dark’s viewpoint, you can already see he has a very quick rhythm to his game. He’s constantly spreading creep, injecting and fighting for map vision - all whilst spending his larva in every free moment he has.
Narrate.
Now that you see what I mean by rhythm - let’s talk about this concept more - whilst this beautiful game plays out in the background.
Rhythm is especially important for Terran as the “aggressive” race, but each race needs it in their own way. Protoss players have less consistent tasks, however they need to suddenly jump up their pace and then slow it down at various points of the game. In PvZ when a Protoss is dealing with baneling drops and huge ling run-bys they have to shift gears from calm macro to splitting and running probes, activating overcharges and warping in units all at lightning speed. This shifting of gears from steady to blazing fast play is traditionally the realm of the best players and might give us some insight into why many Protoss players struggle in LoTV - but more on that later.
ZvT/TvZ is to many the most satisfying matchup, and to many others, the most frustrating. I think this has a lot to do with rhythm. It’s so reliant on mechanics and there are many, many tasks need to be completed on both sides. A big reason for this is creep spread forces both players to contest the map. Zerg tries to get their creep out, and constantly spend actions fighting for the freedom to do so. Whilst the Terran looks to keep zerg distracted whilst clearing up and slowing creep. This creates near-constant interaction between the players and allows the viewers to enjoy a nonstop grappling match.
I think those who dislike ZvT/TvZ often struggle to find their rhythm and therefore find the matchup frustrating and feel the other race has the upper hand. The other guy is always able to attack from all sides, his marines and mines are more efficient, or if I’m not looking his banelings will just roll me over. Yet when you consider the push and pull, the effort for both players to find their rhythm, it opens up an entirely new way of looking at how you approach beating your opponent. I’ve won many games simply by throwing my opponent off their rhythm - indeed many trademark aggressive terran players who lacked strong macro, but could micro well, made careers out of this in WoL and HoTS. They would just rely on dropping from all sides and attacking over and over again with all sorts of creative timings to throw their opponent off. They almost always looked outclassed when they couldn’t mess up their opponents game-flow.
Players that grow frustrated often do need to find that rhythm. They need to find a way to bounce around and complete all their tasks. If the terran is pressuring too much, they need to learn to even the APM scales - sending in small ling and bane counters but not actively microing them is a low APM, low cost way to really strain an opponent's APM and totally disrupt their rhythm. If a Terran is in the middle of looking at his base, macroing and a counter runs in, he needs to jump to the location, run scvs, raise depots, stim marines, a-move the counter, and then try to remember where he was in his macro cycle - if you do this a few times, your opponent simply won’t have any spare apm to pressure you. Suddenly you’ll find your spending, injecting and creep spread all are happening way smoother because you’re not distracted and can do them in tight cycles in between sending in these counters. Even though the attacks themselves aren’t necessarily killing anything, they’re a great investment.
The positives of pressure to throw off your opponent really are twofold - you’re not only disrupting their rhythm - but you’re also making it easier to get into your own rhythm as your opponent can’t spare the apm to pressure you in return. We often talk about seemingly intangible advantages and edges in Starcraft, where we say things like “the veteran just put too much pressure on him and the rookie was playing a great game but eventually crumbled”. This isn’t just casters trying to emphasise the mental side of the game - it’s also us talking about the very tangible effect that exerting pressure has in disrupting and slowing down your opponent’s ability to achieve what they want in the game.
I personally recently had some hard times laddering all 3 races on my main account - some of you would have seen me grow quite frustrated on stream as I struggled to execute defensive macro play in all matchups. I would often get in a good position and then my opponent would outposition me with one big baneling surround on my protoss army, or in TvT they’d be way behind but I’ld let a doom-drop into my base. I was getting frustrated at how hard it is to play purely defensive, macro play. So I decided it was time for a change. I didn’t want to abandon macro and just start all-inning every game. However I knew I needed to do something to disrupt my opponents rhythms - and to make it easier for me to find my own rhythm. The answer was pressure. In ZvT I started sending in those counterattacks I was talking about - not always needing to do damage - but just using them as a low APM way to strain my opponent and pull the pressure off me. As Protoss I started using adept shades in the midgame and warp prisms far more consistently to keep active threats on the map against my opponents. As Terran I focused on consistently doing small single drops continuously. My builds were essentially the same - I was just making sure I was pressuring my opponent a little more. Being a little assertive. The effects were massive. Within a few games I felt more confident and more in control then I had in a long time. There were games where my opponents would fall way behind to the pressure and I’d get easy wins. There were other games where the pressure didn’t really achieve anything directly - yet somehow those mistakes that were happening earlier just weren’t happening anymore. I realised my opponents weren’t as free to attack me constantly. They couldn’t always dictate the pace of the game, and as such needed more attention on finding their own rhythm. As I was taking control of the pace of the game I suddenly found my rhythm much easier, and felt like I was on fire.
To finish up let’s have a quick word about Protoss. I think specifically the change from Protoss’ calm macro to high speed defence is VERY hard to learn. I think most players instead of trying to learn that really should focus on doing what I did where you actively use a prism and try to poke in and do a little damage every minute if possible. Maybe even more if you have the apm. I feel like this forces you to play faster, and almost “stay warm” for when you get hit with multiple drops, or multiple ling runbys. It allows you to not feel as “jolted” by a sudden change in pace. I really do recommend it. For those who still dislike defending as Protoss - I really would recommend studying and learning from Patience. Patience’ entire style is that of the most rhythmic Protoss player out there - he always looks to be doing things and bouncing around. Often his play is inefficient and he makes some terrible moves and blunders, but is also so good in scrappy situations and has a way of forcing his games to be matched with the fast-paced style of Protoss that he loves to play. Even though each race has it’s own unique strengths and weaknesses - styles which are “dominant” amongst the playerbase. I feel like Starcraft is such a diverse game you should never feel like it forces you to play a way you don’t want to. There’s a huge range of choice and sometimes you just need to find a way to indulge how you want to play the game.
To summarise, what really have I said today? Remember that rhythm is important, and sometimes the problem isn’t necessarily “I’m bad at macro” but it’s, “I’m bad at macro when my opponent is harassing from 3 sides and I have 0 map vision or map control”. Are there things constantly interrupting your rhythm? Are you giving too much freedom to your opponent? Start pressuring more! Don’t be worried about doing massive damage, even losing units for no direct damage can be well worth it! If you struggle in a matchup, especially ZvT or TvZ - find a way to get that rhythm back!
I hope you’ve all enjoyed me trying to think about Starcraft in a different way today. I really enjoy these shows where I share my thoughts on topics like this, let me know if you’d like to see more of them.
Don’t forget to hug a watermelon, kick a walrus and of course cunch a pactus to the poon
Thanks PiG for all of the great content. Though I definitely don't play as much Starcraft as I once did it has helped me relearn and I hope to eventually get back into the game more prepared than I ever was before.
“People hate to think about bad things happening so they always underestimate their likelihood." - My next Podcast Style Daily on Recognising Your Weakness!
Sometimes we get so focused on being solid in Starcraft, we forget to stay flexible. We’ve seen it happen so many times, especially with non-korean players, especially with unseasoned macro-centric players. The reason for this is best explained with a quote from the film, “The Big Short”
“People hate to think about bad things happening so they always underestimate their likelihood.”
Today I’ll explain just how valuable a tool, knowing your weakness is, and how not taking the time to find and recognise it, holds many of us back.
Recognising weakness in your playstyle and build-orders is especially important to understand the most important strategic crossroads in your games. Crossroads isn’t a term I’ve used before so I’ll explain what I mean. A Crossroad in Starcraft is a moment of interaction. It’s a point where you can respond to the game state or the situation you’re in, in relation to your opponent.
The replay on screen is one of my ladder games from when I was figuring out a unique opening for PvZ. I’ll be referencing this style in general as we go, as it’s something I understand really well. However the player you should all have in mind when you think about today’s topic is sOs.
sOs is the most consistent pro player to show an absolute hunger for understanding his own weakness. Looking at his play even other pros are often stunned at how quickly he must be adjusting and making decisions in game. He embraces styles that are inherently filled with weakness and gambles. But he’s studied his opponents’ reactions so well, he recognises crossroads and has many paths mapped out far beyond most players mental roadmap. He hides his tells with master precision, reacts and shifts his entire style based on the smallest piece of scouting, and is a master of playing around an opponent that has the counter to him. He will dance around the map, buying time, hiding his transitions and adjusting those transitions as he tracks his opponent's’ line of play. Watching him play is both beautiful in it’s variety and perplexing in its obscurity. As onlookers the many crossroads sOs finds are filled with shadows, we can only guess why and how he’s making the choices he is. Hopefully by the end of today, things will be a little clearer.
Ingame Weakness
When I come across a player who’s serious about learning Starcraft, I like to put them on the path of macro. I’ll give them a very generic solid opening and a few simple goals that allow them to focus on learning the basics whilst being generally safe. The idea is if they spend their money well and do their basic tasks properly, they will beat almost all their opponents in the lower leagues. The reason they’re winning is they’re building more workers, not getting supply blocked as much, and just overall getting more stuff than their opponents. However is their play really solid? Is this how high level players play?
The answer is not at all. This only reason this works is because their opponents in the lower leagues aren’t as effective at their basic tasks. If you try to blindly follow a generic build in Masters or GM, your opponent will have many opportunities to scout you and react by being greedy against you, to counter your composition, or to attack you right at a moment where you’re weak. There’s no such thing as a static solid build - because if you’re committing to being safe by blindly building defence, you give your opponent an opportunity to build their economy faster, make a much larger army, and roll over you later in the game. This is why truly solid play is inherently reactive and flexible. You need to be able to constantly adjust to the situation you’re in, and change your play to suit your goals.
The real secret to absolute mastery of Starcraft Strategy is inseparable from this flexibility. The most important tool is understanding more crossroads than your opponent and how to use them. As you learn to recognise more and more of these crossroads and their impacts on the game, you can then make an adjustment to improve your position. This could be seeing your zerg opponent didn’t take any gas early so can’t attack you, and therefore you can take a very fast 3rd base. Another scenario would be scouting an army that you can’t defeat in frontal combat so you place your units ready for a basetrade when they push out. There’s no limit to your responses in Starcraft.
The more knowledge of the game you have, the more you study it and understand your opposing races play, the more crossroads you will recognise. This is why players who spend a lot of time studying the game, thinking about it and searching to understand the core concepts are often the ones who continue to learn and improve.
We could talk about dozens of different ways to recognise new crossroads, to identify cool and interesting ways to react in-game. I’m sure I’ll do shows covering some of these in depth in future. For now though I want to talk about how recognising your weakness is a powerful tool.
What I mean by recognising your weakness is being able to look at a build or style you’re playing and identify the worst situations for you. Usually you can simply think of a matchup - think of that one thing you suck against, and BAM, you’ve found a weakness.
An example from my own experiences was using my chargelot opening in PvZ. It’s the same as an adept opening except with chargelots instead of adepts. I really like it, but many people were quick to point out that banelings absolutely destroy chargelots in big fights. So early on I already was aware that any big push involving banelings that hits me could be very deadly. My first response was going for stargate units after my zealots and using the oracles and voids to handily defend any early pushes. However once Hydras hit the field I would often get crushed by a fast hydra-bane push. Now that I knew this was a weakness and focused on that - I thought about ways to work around it. I started getting my robo and a prism out earlier and earlier so I could buy time with chargelot counterattacks. I started hiding big chargelot counters on the map, to pull them home when they try to push me. If I scouted hydras I’d also really focus on rushing out that storm tech.
The style worked insanely well, I had a really sick winrate for quite some time with it in mid GM. The reason wasn’t that it’s 100% solid or perfect - but it’s because I looked at the weaknesses of it, and used that to inform my strategy. Whenever I see baneling tech I would get the counterattacks and prism ready ASAP, when I’d know hydras might be an option, I’d really focus on that storm being done early. Looking at your weakness teaches you not only some cool reactions but more importantly what your focus should be prioritised on.
Rather than just looking at your weaknesses in terms of composition or attack timing, you can also look at what informs your opponent to go for those compositions and those attacks? You can easily recognise what “tells” there are of your specific strategy. The earlier your opponent sees these tells, the sooner they can react with something you’re weak against. In my case I realised that going for 4 oracles before voidrays was an awesome way to deal big damage and really get some momentum. However in games where my opponent scouted the oracles coming out of 2 stargates, they’d have plenty of anti-air and I couldn’t get much value out of these oracles. It was a pretty gambley move. But now I knew that, I knew how important it was to hide it. If there were any overlords around, I’d specifically focus on getting a voidray or phoenix or 2 out first to clear them up, and only then go into oracle production. I’d really focus a lot more apm on denying that scouting once I realised how key hiding my oracles were.
So right from the beginning, knowing what the important tells are, you now know what to try and hide from your opponent. How to obscure their knowledge of your strategy, and delay any counters entering the field. You don’t need to just fight directly against your weakness, sometimes understanding it allows you to avoid it entirely.
As you start to understand scouting and adjustments against your style you should also look at the nitty gritty details of how they get there. Rather than just looking at “Oh if he has hydras and banes he’s gunna hit me with that attack” - I would start to look at exactly how my opponent got to those hydra baneling attacks. I quickly realised there was a vast difference between someone attacking me off 3-bases with 16 hydras and 20-30 banelings as opposed to a 4-5 base guy who spreads creep across the map and makes 30 hydras and 100 banelings. I looked closer and saw not only was the base count the difference but I could see creep-spread was more of a priority for the big macro guys. They would drone a lot faster and saturate that 3rd and drop their 4th nice and fast. Their Lair would often be quite a bit later. So as I traced my weakness - dying to hydra-bane backwards, I started to decipher the different reactions and recognise the separate types of them. Looking for drone count, Lair timing, creep-spread as well as expansion timing gave me many tells outside of just “there’s a hydra den, there’s a baneling nest”. I recognised that prism harass and chargelot counters had to get in position a lot earlier to pull back these faster, harder-hitting attacks. I needed to really rush straight to storm to be able to defend. Likewise against the macro styles - having storm wasn’t just automatically a GG. Early on I’d treat it that way thinking all hydra-bane was the same shitty stuff - I’d counterattack after killing an army, and get surrounded and destroyed on creep. It turns out zergs with 85 drones can rebuild stuff pretty fast and you’ve gotta slow your play down… who woulda thought hey?
Summary: Wait a second… rather than saying “understand your weakness”, why not just say “understand your goals and game-plan, and focus on the key points to make that work.” - why should we try to understand it in this backwards way?
I experience this very resistance where I don’t want to look at a game for my weaknesses. My ego doesn’t to be exposed and my human nature wants to avoid dwelling on misfortune. As a progamer, I would rarely make the effort to analyse problems in my play. Rather than spend hours poring over vods for intelligent decisions, I chose to simply see X build vs Y build. This is good vs that. This composition “doesn’t work”. Even watching players far better than myself, I would dumb down the game to generalisations and partial truths. I would stop looking deeper, or would only look at a problem from one player's perspective. I sometimes see this sort of attitude echoed, especially in younger progamers, and I really think we should all spend more time analysing our opponents builds, reactions, and responses. Look at pros of your own race not through your own mindset, but try to get in the mindset of those you’re spectating, try to understand their win conditions and their preferences rather than only seeing through your own bias. Funnily enough, learning a few basics of Chess has helped me with this. In order to understand the options the absolute best way is to simply think from my opponent's’ view about how, if I were in their shoes, I would take advantage of my play. It’s a habit now to hop on the analysis board and look at all the possible moves that will ruin my day. This process is way easier as a beginner in Chess than it is as an expert in Starcraft. The pieces are set in how they move, there’s only so many options, and so it’s not hard to simply try a bunch of things mindlessly until I come across some deadly combinations. In Starcraft it’s a little more complex as there’s so many moving pieces, but looking at the game the way I’ve talked about today has been a great help for me to look at the whole scope of it.
In Starcraft we’re always seeking solid styles. Strong strategies that are flexible but also try to simplify the game by giving us more consistency across a wide range of situations. However It’s easy to fall into the trap of becoming inflexible as we delve deeper into these solid styles. If we stop embracing weakness as a part of every build then we forget that the only thing that makes a build perfect is our very ability to change our decisions at a moment’s notice. Truly understanding how to use a build well and refine it to its best quality, sometimes that’s all about recognising the inherent weaknesses of what you’re doing. Understanding your flaws and looking for ways to pick yourself apart is the hardest thing to do. It takes real discipline and critical thinking, but it provides such a clear focus on the most important crossroads, the most important strategic points of focus for both you and your opponent. Looking at your weakness ensures you will always be one step ahead.
I hope you’ve enjoyed today’s discussion. I’m really enjoying these topics, and even though it takes a lot of time to prepare and think this through in detail I aim to keep putting out a daily like this at least once a week. I’ve been thinking about giving them a separate playlist but just need to think of a clever name that points towards SC theory and the podcast-style I’m going for. Let me know any suggestions you have!
Don’t forget to hug a watermelon, kick a walrus and of course punch garden gnome in the gonads!
Note: In ZvZ you will probably want to make some more army or a spine earlier to stay safe as it's a much more fast-paced matchup. Usually learning to be very aggressive is good to help you get the feel for this matchup.
I think the notes didn't make it onto the forum for the 2-1-1 episode.
I haven't watched it yet, but if the opening is good for all MUs, would that make it a good opening for team games as well? Team games tend to be more aggressive early on, and maps are different, so maybe a 1on1 opening isn't good for team games? Did you ever do an episode on team games? If not, could you?
I'm starting to cheat a bit on my zergies with terran just because I love the action the medivac drops bring, but I ofc suck at controlling them.
On April 19 2017 11:13 Cascade wrote: I think the notes didn't make it onto the forum for the 2-1-1 episode.
I haven't watched it yet, but if the opening is good for all MUs, would that make it a good opening for team games as well? Team games tend to be more aggressive early on, and maps are different, so maybe a 1on1 opening isn't good for team games? Did you ever do an episode on team games? If not, could you?
I'm starting to cheat a bit on my zergies with terran just because I love the action the medivac drops bring, but I ofc suck at controlling them.
Thanks for all the material!! <3
Check out the spawningtool link, all the notes are there! I'm very pressed for time lately so can't copy everything over. On the plus side there's usually a very detailed and beautiful article from the TL strategy guys soon to follow!
On April 19 2017 11:13 Cascade wrote: I think the notes didn't make it onto the forum for the 2-1-1 episode.
I haven't watched it yet, but if the opening is good for all MUs, would that make it a good opening for team games as well? Team games tend to be more aggressive early on, and maps are different, so maybe a 1on1 opening isn't good for team games? Did you ever do an episode on team games? If not, could you?
I'm starting to cheat a bit on my zergies with terran just because I love the action the medivac drops bring, but I ofc suck at controlling them.
Thanks for all the material!! <3
Check out the spawningtool link, all the notes are there! I'm very pressed for time lately so can't copy everything over. On the plus side there's usually a very detailed and beautiful article from the TL strategy guys soon to follow!
oh, didn't know the notes were there as well, thanks!
So the main idea with this show is showing 1) SC isn’t that scary 2) It’s simple to improve at SC 3) How to choose the right things to focus on improving since there’s so many!
False culture/ideas about SC as super hard/indefatigable/ high barrier to entry Not really that hard - just a bit unfamiliar to get into at first. Wide set of choices isn’t bad its just more obvious in a strategy game It’s easier to ignore how bad you are in other games Need to be comfortable just plodding around without that much direction - enjoy just trying basic plans and figuring them out Since its a competition our opponents struggle just as much as us with the same conditions so remember it’s meant to be hard and you’re both battling the same situation -
Embracing the reality that we all don’t fully get it No magic barrier where you suddenly just understand everything there is to know about Starcraft Once you get this it’s easier to just realise you just need to constantly choose 1 thing to improve at and work at it it a little bit if you want to get better You can still have fun not improving - just accept your losses - ignore ego
Don’t get thrown off by the vast choices - just choose something. Indecision and being afraid to focus on small areas is one of the biggest parts that holds people back Skewed skillsets Confusing winning with fun Only improving what wins them games and stretching that to a big area
In competitive gaming culture Starcraft is revered as the hardest, fastest and most challenging game. The hardcore players hold it up as a badge of pride. They’re the ones who flagellate themselves night after night, fighting viciously to maintain their position on the ladder. An elite caste of gamers that are on a constant mission to prove they’re better than everyone else. Energy drinks might keep them playing through the wee hours of the night, but the only true nourishment they get is from the tears of their enemies. And a Starcraft player’s hunger is not easily sated.
I’m introducing a new series of shows about how to improve at Starcraft. Over the next week I’ll be going through the nitty gritty of how to work on each area of the game in isolation. However in this introduction I’m going to focus more on the mental attitude you need as a player to improve, and some common misconceptions. That’s actually the reason I opened with the silly intro - I’ll be explaining why SC isn’t as scary hard and elite as it’s made out to be. Then I’ll show that it’s actually really simple to improve at Starcraft and lastly I’ll tell a story about why having GM level drop play might actually be what’s holding you back.
Rec Break
Even fans who watch a lot of SC but don’t play that much are often indoctrinated into this culture of “Starcraft is so incredibly hard”. I get that games hold people’s hand these days and in some cases literally make it impossible to lose - (any game with instant respawn checkpoints every 2 metres I’m looking at you) but it’s not like Starcaft will just take a giant dump on you the moment you start playing. There’s an awesome single player campaign as well as a plethora of arcade and Co-Op missions that all provide great entry points into figuring out the basics of how to play Starcraft in a fun and friendly environment.
I can already hear some people saying in response: “Yeah but the multiplayer is incredibly challenging pig!” Well yeah, if you haven’t played anything else and you hop right into multiplayer - yes it’s quite hard, go back and play the other modes first! If the competitive modes are all you’re interested in, then hop on the forums and ask for some advice. If you want to skip the normal learning path you best go look for some advice, and the forums are a great place to start.
The broad idea about Starcraft that runs rich through gaming culture and really misleads people is very simple. It’s that Starcraft is overwhelming. It is complex. It is stressful. And that it constantly punishes you for the smallest mistakes. These all sound kind of accurate, but let me break down why taken at face value this doesn’t paint a complete picture of Starcraft.
Next Rec
Other games have a smaller limit on mechanical and strategic options, they limit the number of ways you can improve. Because it’s not as obvious what you’re screwing up in other games, players like to live in a fantasy that they’re “good” compared to everyone else. In Starcraft you’re constantly aware of how hard it is to make everything work the way you want it to - so players have a much harder time imagining they’re amazing compared to everyone. The moment you start looking to improve in SC you realise just how bad you are.
But that’s what should relax you! You don’t need to try and improve every thing you’re doing wrong. You can literally choose ANY area of the game to improve on - and even just getting a little bit better at that one area will give you more success. There’s so much choice in how you improve, what you focus on learning and getting better at. You get to express yourself in how you learn to play this game Everyone is in the same situation, having an insane amount of things they COULD do to play better, even in pro play this is so clear. Europeans play a defensive strategic style that “should win” if they play perfectly. On the other hand Korean players constantly play aggressively, mixing rushes that should fail vs perfect play. Yet the Koreans are way more dominant If there’s no perfect play even for pros - then we’re all just constantly in a cycle of fucking up our play. We’re not trying to reach some invisible barrier that makes us “good” or “respectable” it’s all just a quest to be better than ourselves. Over the years I’ve seen so many players start out saying “one day I want to be diamond so I’m actually good at the game”. Then when they hit diamond it’s “wow I’m still terrible”. It might seem like I’m pointing out how pointless it is to try and improve at this game, but it’s the opposite. We play the leagues, the ladder, our friends, our ladder and tournament rivals. We use all of these as motivation to press forward, but at the end of the day it’s just about putting one foot in front of the other. Finding one small thing at a time to do just that little bit better. We don’t learn a few things and suddenly it all clicks and we play like a god. It’s an intensely personal journey of self-improvement where we’re constantly choosing something and just saying “hey, let’s do that better, let’s demand more of ourselves”. I remember playing overwatch, getting to diamond league and feeling like I’d done “enough” improving and from there it was very easy to just hover at the same rank ignoring faults in my play and blaming my team for our losses rather than any shortcomings of my own. But you can’t do that in Starcraft, it’s not as easy to rest on your laurels. You can’t just improve to a certain point and then imagine you’re amazing at the game. No matter how much you improve you’ll constantly be taught humility when you lose. You’ll constantly face the reality of your own inability to choose the correct strategy. You’ll constantly see yourself unable to properly execute your grand plans as you make errors. At the end of the day you don’t need to be constantly improving at Starcraft, you can stay at the same level and just play for fun, with your current skillset and have a hell of a lot of fun, you just have to take responsibility for your losses. You lost, the other dude played better, that’s it. If we could all just stop being egotistical pricks this wouldn’t be that hard.
The important thing is that the game gives you many options, it provides a platform for near limitless innovation. The variables that make the game hard, all come from yourself and your opposition. A multiplayer game can not in of itself be hard. It can just be. Your opponent is the only thing you’re playing against. Whilst we often talk about playing against the games mechanics - that’s simply the playing field - and whilst a lot of Starcraft is decided by who’s mastered that field the most - you and your opponent are both in the same spot. If it’s hard for you, it’s also hard for your opponent.
Rec Break
Most gamers have this idea that strategy is just this thing where a clever or intelligent person is naturally good at strategy. Yet even great minds will be terrible at the great strategy games when they first start out. Their only advantage is the ability to learn a bit quicker - however they still need to put a vast amount of time into learning how to play. In chess it takes thousands and thousands of hours of practice to recognise the ridiculous number of patterns, moves and plays before the human brain can make sense of what’s going on and make correct decisions. This is necessary barrier to all strategy games. For them to be complex and have constant room for innovation, creativity and problem solving, they NEED to create a complex set of a rules that must be grappled with first of all.
Don’t get thrown off by these vast choices that the game gives you - just choose some small area to focus on and do that. Be happy to fumble through the rest of the game and only become more focused on the other areas as you free up brain power to do so. Be confident and just do stuff. Indecision when faced with many options is a huge factor in halting players progression.
Rec Break
Skewed Skillsets in Starcraft
I always tell players they should play the styles and strategies that THEY find entertaining and enjoyable. To express themselves through Starcraft. However there are some cases where players start to mix up “fun” with “winning”.
There definitely is some overlap between fun in Starcraft and winning. Winning feels good, it’s satisfying, and therefore fun. However sometimes players get so focused on that one area of the game they’re good at, that they ignore other areas. This can lead to a very skewed skillset that really hinders any sort of progress going forward.
I was coaching a player the other week, Utriple, he’s a diamond 2 Terran and I was astounded when I watched him in action. Our first session he was fighting a zerg and it felt like I was watching Alive. There were drops flying in from 3 directions at once, always timed out to hit simultaneously and overload the zerg. He was inflicting massive damage consistently and I honestly thought I was being trolled that this guy was supposedly in diamond…
Then I looked at his macro. Ok there were quite a few mistakes here, not quite as consistent with barracks count, depots, etc as he could be. But still pretty ok since he was doing so well with drops. Then he moved across the map and was at double the zergs supply. This is where I said
“Ok he can work on his macro but this game is literally over, he’s so far ahead, all he needs to do is push onto creep, do some half-assed splitting and he’s got it…”
Of course this was immediately followed by him move commanding his entire 80 marine army onto creep and into speedbanes.
“Holy shit wtf did I just watch?”
I was utterly stunned. I couldn’t believe a guy with such sick drop control could do that. I thought maybe it was just some freak human error. Then on his next push he tried to micro his units. Immediately regrouped them in a clump and when the lingbane rolled in he just stimmed and tried to run backwards. There was almost no attempt to split his units.
I quickly realised why my student was where he was. He had worked so hard to improve his drops that he had perfected his timing and control on them to a high master level. But his macro was a little weak, and most importantly of all his army control in big fights was somewhere around silver-gold level.
Players often focus too much on the areas they’re strong at and grow even stronger There ends up being such a difference between their strengths and weaknesses that they don’t want to go back and work on their weak areas because they will get destroyed on ladder every game whilst they try to bring their other skills up to par Even though you will often screw up whenever you’re first improving at something new. Don’t mistake losing a few games with being unfun. The moment it feels terrible to lose and you can’t handle it - you’re probably slipping into a poor mindset. Check your ego before you turn toxic. Accept a few losses and you’ll find you learn new things very quickly and they open up new completely different ways of winning the game. The joy of learning and playing these is incredible, and well worth a few losses in the process.
Rec Break
Ok guys so that about wraps up today’s discussion. Don’t forget to help me protect the ozone layer with this weeks ICYFAR Challenge - we’re only allowed to take 1 gas per base to limit vespene emissions! I’ll be hiking next week so you’ll have a full week from today to get your replays in for your chance to have them cast on the show!
Alright thanks for hanging out. Don’t forget to hug a watermelon, kick a walrus and of course punch garden gnome in the gonads!
Unit control, spell casting and knowing your opponent’s plans and strategy are obviously extremely important to winning a game of Starcraft II. However quite often, victory is determined by the amount of resources you harvest and mine, the units you produce and the upgrades you research.
Hi guys welcome to the PiG Daily. This is the first topic in my “how to improve at Starcraft” playlist. In each section I’ll cover an important area of Starcraft, and show you some of the best techniques to help you improve.
Today we’re looking at that most important aspect of Starcraft - macro. That is, your the ability to get a lot of money, and to spend that money efficiently. Alright let’s dive straight into game.
MACRO 2
Mid-tier game (ICYFAR?) The most important part of finding where to improve in SC2 is being able to find your mistakes so you have areas to focus on to improve. We’ll start off looking at a mid-tier game, if you’re M/GM you might want to skip the next 7 minutes as this is stuff you already know. We’ll be looking for mis-macro. Mis-macro is just a general term we use for any time you make macro errors. The first and most obvious things beginners should look at is their money and supply You should constantly be spending your money - because sitting in the bank it does nothing. If you get more workers earlier you can mine more with them. If you get more army out you can defend or attack better. If you get upgrades faster they kick in earlier. FF 4x and watch money + supply blocks Money should be low Supply blocks should never happen
Terran /23 supply blocked
Zerg /36 supply blocked
4:00 Zerg /44 supply block
As the game goes on it’s more natural to have money build up a bit more. Sitting on 1000 minerals in the early-game is massive. However once you’re on 4-5 bases 1000 minerals isn’t that big - even pros floating this much isn’t a huge error. Difference between floating 2k minerals once off and then spending it all, vs constantly floating 2k minerals (much bigger problem).
MACRO 3
4:30 resume
“Ok so I can find mistakes? But How do I fix them?”
There’s two important things to focus on. Number one is what we touched on before with the supply blocks. Your opening build orders being refined helps you avoid mis-macroing. Know your depot and overlord timings for the first 4:00, know exactly when you’re meant to do everything and you’ll improve a lot.
Now onto the other way to boost your macro, we’re about to see Bulya with a bad habit.
For beginners it’s just about: getting a consistent Macro cycle down
Macro Cycle Inject Units Supply
Pt 2 advanced stuff
MACRO ADV1
PvZ vs Silky
Start at 4:00 from silkys view
Identifying Macro Blockages Units Tabx4 speed (larva stoppages) T/P Production tab (worker production) Unit Production for T/P
Finding the areas where you screw up and then going back and watching from your camera for the previous 30 seconds and try to see what distracts or pre-occupies you.
Macro ADV 1.5
5:45 - 650 minerals
Look for solutions - maybe there’s a SUPER important bit of micro that needs to be done. Ok sure - but you can memorise “Ok as soon as I pull back with archon drops first attack, que it to a new location and drop 2nd robo, gates + forge. Know that exact transition so it kicks in like muscle memory the moment you look away from your micro You might be over-microing certain things Remind yourself to not overcommit unless it’s really worth it. Keep balance between micro/macro
MACRO ADV2
PREPARING FOR ATTACKS - Story of always dying whilst supply blocked and unable to spend money cos I’d panic whenever I saw an attack coming Build supply buildings Build Units Don’t waste time watching/positioning your army any more than is necessary Macro ADV 2.5 9:00 - 1400 minerals chasing mutas - split stalkers and add more cannons so don’t rely on prism archon so much! MACRO ADV3
TvZ vs Ddolkki 8:20 1000 minerals! - just defended counter AND i push onto creep! You might be throwing your own macro rhythm off by attacking when your macro isn’t at order Essentially not giving yourself time to “catch up” on your backlog of actions. I always see this with zergs defending a terran attack, and rather than re-spreading creep and injecting, spending larva, they just put all their focus into countering as hard as they can. If I just needed to micro really hard = OK I NEED TO FOCUS ON MACRO - move units to middle of the map ready to counter, but don’t go in with them until you have the apm to focus on it - that 10 second counter won’t kill you NEVER click into the enemy base until you’re there, with the apm ready to give the fight the attention it needs The moment you attack without finishing macroing you mess up your rhythm
Some more advanced ways to improve macro
MACRO ADV4
Terran - PiG vs Ddolkki Never queing up extra units for the first few minutes of the game, just 1 scv, 1 unit at a time so you can be as crisp as possible As the game goes on or harassment starts up - you have more actions so you que up more units
MACRO ADV5
Zerg - me vs Silky Constantly tapping your hatcheries and spending your larva as its popping out to get drones out those few seconds earlier Same for T/P, just checking to que up units constantly when you have spare apm, get that immortal started a few seconds before your macro cycle etc.
Macro ADV6
Protoss - Me vs Silky 6:00 Powering Learning when you’re not under threat and you don’t need gateway units - so you can get more infrastructure: tech, more upgrades and more gates. THEN explode into production a little bit later This is an essential part of Protoss play as you get to the higher levels of ladder. Especially around diamond league onwards you want to learn to understand your opponents builds very well. This can be very useful as Terran also
MACRO ADV 7
Ok guys that sums up this topic, I hope you learnt something new! Don’t forget to “Tag Your Territory!” on ladder this week by using the worker “spraypaint” in front of your attacks and submit the replays to be cast by me in next week’s ICYFAR show!
That’s all for now, don’t forget to hug a watermelon, kick a cactus and of course punch a garden gnome in the gonads! I’ll see you guys next time, goodbye and goodnight!
THIS WEEKS ICYFAR Challenge: “WARCRAFT” send in your best games where you use your units like heroes, winning with as few units as possible! (Tip: Tech up quickly to units like Disruptors/Thors/Lurkers ) Send submissions to eonblu95@gmail.com as attachment AND only ICYFAR as title! Latest submission is 24 hours before the show airs on the tuesday (AM/EU) /wednesday (AU) daily.
THIS WEEKS ICYFAR Challenge: “No Upgrades” You cant get Attack or Armor Upgrades for your units, specific upgrades are still allowed! Send submissions to eonblu95@gmail.com as attachment AND only ICYFAR as title! Latest submission is 24 hours before the show airs on the tuesday (AM/EU) /wednesday (AU) daily.
Upgrades are for wimps, great generals win with 0-0 or die trying!
CURRENT ICYFAR CHALLENGE:
THIS WEEKS ICYFAR Challenge: "Jebaited" - Send in your best baits! Send submissions to eonblu95@gmail.com as attachment AND only ICYFAR as title! Latest submission is 24 hours before the show airs on the tuesday (AM/EU) /wednesday (AU) daily.