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Tbh, ever since someone brought up that idea that a lot of stuff in Monogatari, the monsters in particular, are allegories I've been thinking about that for a bit. That seems like a more interesting topic to me, especially since I don't have any RL friends who are into Monogatari...
For me it's always been that I always thought they are to some degree but I never was quite sure how far that goes but the reddit link made me think about it. If just to put my own thoughts about it into words myself. And quite honestly I'm still not really sure to what degree it is. I can say clearly that I believe a lot of it to be depictions of things the way characters perceived things to be rather than how they actually are. That to me is an important thing to the series as a whole that I've mentioned countless times. The examples I mostly bring up are stuff like: Nisemonogatari the fight with Karen. For me it's obvious that's not actually how things went down. Koyomi and Karen had a quarrel and it might have felt like an epic brawl to them with bridges collapsing etc but surely that didn't actually happen. I think that's something almost everyone can agree with, right? Another example of that from Nisemonogatari would be Nadeko's locked locker. In the beginning of Nise we see her locking it with some hightech keypad security thingie while later in Koimonogatari we see the same thing with Kaiki turn into a simply "rotate it to the left with a coin and it unlocks" thingie. Man these things are hard in english. Anyways, another example for something where obviously we got to see how the character (Nadeko) perceived it, rather than how it actually was. Or just generally the Araragi household. I don't think for a second their house looks anything like what we're shown, especially the living room and the bathroom.
And then we move on to things that are a bit more controversial. Did Senjougahara LITERALLY meet a giant crab that took away her emotions and weight or was that monster an allegory about how she perceived her problem? To me that also was something I always quite comfortably put into the: she didn't LITERALLY meet a giant crab category But then I ran into troubles thinking about the others. What does that make of Shinobu? What does that make of Mayoi? If we want to argue that monsters are allegories are they even people? Or are they part of other people, say Araragi? I could see that with Shinobu I think. But it's getting kind of uncomfortable for me here thinking about the others. The notion that only people that have had contact with the supernatural can see mayoi kind of fits I guess but that's just too much for me personally.
So what's your stance on that? Take it literal and it's all supernatural after all? It's completly devoid of the supernatural and somehow it all makes sense and I just didn't see it yet? Thinking too much about, acknowledging that it won't fit 100% because it wasn't thought through in the beginning as it just started as "random" short stories he put together without realizing that he'd be writing them for years to come?
I kind of see it as two sides of the same coin and think its actually one of the themes for the series. In some ways you can interpret Bakemonogatari without any of the supernatural stuff. Like I'm just playing around with the idea but you can see Mayoi originally as a personification of the feeling of not wanting to go home. Hell the whole show can be seen as some kind of "chuunibyou" fantasy if you want.
I think its more of the supernatural beings attached themselves to those people because their circumstances drew that particular oddity to them or they sought out something (an oddity) that they thought would help them (IE Kanbaru). Plus a bunch of the characters are oddities or nonhumans themselves.
Tbh, ever since someone brought up that idea that a lot of stuff in Monogatari, the monsters in particular, are allegories I've been thinking about that for a bit. That seems like a more interesting topic to me, especially since I don't have any RL friends who are into Monogatari...
For me it's always been that I always thought they are to some degree but I never was quite sure how far that goes but the reddit link made me think about it. If just to put my own thoughts about it into words myself. And quite honestly I'm still not really sure to what degree it is. I can say clearly that I believe a lot of it to be depictions of things the way characters perceived things to be rather than how they actually are. That to me is an important thing to the series as a whole that I've mentioned countless times. The examples I mostly bring up are stuff like: Nisemonogatari the fight with Karen. For me it's obvious that's not actually how things went down. Koyomi and Karen had a quarrel and it might have felt like an epic brawl to them with bridges collapsing etc but surely that didn't actually happen. I think that's something almost everyone can agree with, right? Another example of that from Nisemonogatari would be Nadeko's locked locker. In the beginning of Nise we see her locking it with some hightech keypad security thingie while later in Koimonogatari we see the same thing with Kaiki turn into a simply "rotate it to the left with a coin and it unlocks" thingie. Man these things are hard in english. Anyways, another example for something where obviously we got to see how the character (Nadeko) perceived it, rather than how it actually was. Or just generally the Araragi household. I don't think for a second their house looks anything like what we're shown, especially the living room and the bathroom.
And then we move on to things that are a bit more controversial. Did Senjougahara LITERALLY meet a giant crab that took away her emotions and weight or was that monster an allegory about how she perceived her problem? To me that also was something I always quite comfortably put into the: she didn't LITERALLY meet a giant crab category But then I ran into troubles thinking about the others. What does that make of Shinobu? What does that make of Mayoi? If we want to argue that monsters are allegories are they even people? Or are they part of other people, say Araragi? I could see that with Shinobu I think. But it's getting kind of uncomfortable for me here thinking about the others. The notion that only people that have had contact with the supernatural can see mayoi kind of fits I guess but that's just too much for me personally.
So what's your stance on that? Take it literal and it's all supernatural after all? It's completly devoid of the supernatural and somehow it all makes sense and I just didn't see it yet? Thinking too much about, acknowledging that it won't fit 100% because it wasn't thought through in the beginning as it just started as "random" short stories he put together without realizing that he'd be writing them for years to come?
I kind of see it as two sides of the same coin and think its actually one of the themes for the series. In some ways you can interpret Bakemonogatari without any of the supernatural stuff. Like I'm just playing around with the idea but you can see Mayoi originally as a personification of the feeling of not wanting to go home. Hell the whole show can be seen as a some kind of "chuunibyou" fantasy.
yeah that's what I meant with you can make it somehow work and like I said, I feel somewhat comfortable doing that with Shinobu, maybe I could be talked into the same with Mayoi but I'm not really sure about that. That feels like too much since Shinobu would already have to be part of Araragi as well + Show Spoiler [spoiler from this season] +
as well as Ougi
It does make sense in a way though since they mentioned that she can only be seen by people who had contact with the supernatural. I guess that would turn into something like "only people who had some kind of issues like that are able to recognize them in other people". But there's just so much of it later on. Is Ononoki part of Yozuru? What's with the guy from Tsukimonogatari who's name I can't remember? + Show Spoiler [again spoiler from this season] +
why is he dead?
I think I'm running into problems when I try to turn every single thing supernatural into something normal. Some things work very easily for me like I mentioned initially but at some point it gets too cramped I guess
So personally I'm actually quite torn on this. I don't think I can put into words how I feel about it because I don't think it makes perfect sense for me. Hence asking where you guys stand on it.
Tbh, ever since someone brought up that idea that a lot of stuff in Monogatari, the monsters in particular, are allegories I've been thinking about that for a bit. That seems like a more interesting topic to me, especially since I don't have any RL friends who are into Monogatari...
For me it's always been that I always thought they are to some degree but I never was quite sure how far that goes but the reddit link made me think about it. If just to put my own thoughts about it into words myself. And quite honestly I'm still not really sure to what degree it is. I can say clearly that I believe a lot of it to be depictions of things the way characters perceived things to be rather than how they actually are. That to me is an important thing to the series as a whole that I've mentioned countless times. The examples I mostly bring up are stuff like: Nisemonogatari the fight with Karen. For me it's obvious that's not actually how things went down. Koyomi and Karen had a quarrel and it might have felt like an epic brawl to them with bridges collapsing etc but surely that didn't actually happen. I think that's something almost everyone can agree with, right? Another example of that from Nisemonogatari would be Nadeko's locked locker. In the beginning of Nise we see her locking it with some hightech keypad security thingie while later in Koimonogatari we see the same thing with Kaiki turn into a simply "rotate it to the left with a coin and it unlocks" thingie. Man these things are hard in english. Anyways, another example for something where obviously we got to see how the character (Nadeko) perceived it, rather than how it actually was. Or just generally the Araragi household. I don't think for a second their house looks anything like what we're shown, especially the living room and the bathroom.
And then we move on to things that are a bit more controversial. Did Senjougahara LITERALLY meet a giant crab that took away her emotions and weight or was that monster an allegory about how she perceived her problem? To me that also was something I always quite comfortably put into the: she didn't LITERALLY meet a giant crab category But then I ran into troubles thinking about the others. What does that make of Shinobu? What does that make of Mayoi? If we want to argue that monsters are allegories are they even people? Or are they part of other people, say Araragi? I could see that with Shinobu I think. But it's getting kind of uncomfortable for me here thinking about the others. The notion that only people that have had contact with the supernatural can see mayoi kind of fits I guess but that's just too much for me personally.
So what's your stance on that? Take it literal and it's all supernatural after all? It's completly devoid of the supernatural and somehow it all makes sense and I just didn't see it yet? Thinking too much about, acknowledging that it won't fit 100% because it wasn't thought through in the beginning as it just started as "random" short stories he put together without realizing that he'd be writing them for years to come?
I kind of see it as two sides of the same coin and think its actually one of the themes for the series. In some ways you can interpret Bakemonogatari without any of the supernatural stuff. Like I'm just playing around with the idea but you can see Mayoi originally as a personification of the feeling of not wanting to go home. Hell the whole show can be seen as a some kind of "chuunibyou" fantasy.
yeah that's what I meant with you can make it somehow work and like I said, I feel somewhat comfortable doing that with Shinobu, maybe I could be talked into the same with Mayoi but I'm not really sure about that. That feels like too much since Shinobu would already have to be part of Araragi as well + Show Spoiler [spoiler from this season] +
as well as Ougi
It does make sense in a way though since they mentioned that she can only be seen by people who had contact with the supernatural. I guess that would turn into something like "only people who had some kind of issues like that are able to recognize them in other people". But there's just so much of it later on. Is Ononoki part of Yozuru? What's with the guy from Tsukimonogatari who's name I can't remember? + Show Spoiler [again spoiler from this season] +
why is he dead?
I think I'm running into problems when I try to turn every single thing supernatural into something normal. Some things work very easily for me like I mentioned initially but at some point it gets too cramped I guess
So personally I'm actually quite torn on this. I don't think I can put into words how I feel about it because I don't think it makes perfect sense for me. Hence asking where you guys stand on it.
Personally for me, I think that Nisio Isin wanted everything supernatural in the story to be seen as real but I also think that hes aware of how some parts of the supernatural can be seen as allegories/explained through modern science such as an eating disorder due to trauma for Senjyougahara.
but where do you draw the line on what's supernatural? Shinobu and Mayoi certainly are supernatural beings. Then what about the fight between Karen and Araragi during Nisemonogatari? Does that also count as a supernatural event because Araragi is a Vampire?
I guess we can differentiate between supernatural beings, such as Shinobu and Mayoi and just blatant depections of how characters experienced an event happening (in contrast to how it actually was) such as Nadeko's lock on her locker, the fight I just mentioned or Kanbaru living in a literal cave cave formed from BL novels
Yea anything involving "kaii" I would consider supernatural. The fight between Karen and Araragi would just be a stylistic effect just like Kanburu's room.
On September 25 2017 14:02 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Yea anything involving "kaii" I would consider supernatural. The fight between Karen and Araragi would just be a stylistic effect just like Kanburu's room.
Yeah probably. The 2nd part makes it enticing to extend it to kaii as well though
This reminds me of a passage from Nekomonogatari White. I read the translated version in Korean so maybe the original is different but I think it was Black Hanekawa talking about how it will disappear like a imaginary friend someday and it reminded me of this comic(I know its fake) + Show Spoiler +
.
I guess what I'm trying to say in all this is having the supernatural aspects of Bakemonogatari being able to connect with everyday problems people go through in real life is why I really enjoy the series. + Show Spoiler +
On September 25 2017 13:54 Toadesstern wrote: but where do you draw the line on what's supernatural? Shinobu and Mayoi certainly are supernatural beings. Then what about the fight between Karen and Araragi during Nisemonogatari? Does that also count as a supernatural event because Araragi is a Vampire?
I guess we can differentiate between supernatural beings, such as Shinobu and Mayoi and just blatant depections of how characters experienced an event happening (in contrast to how it actually was) such as Nadeko's lock on her locker, the fight I just mentioned or Kanbaru living in a literal cave cave formed from BL novels
I think he is saying that in the story it is all supernatural but that the author is aware of (or intended to show) how this fictional world can be an allegory for problems people face in the real world
There can also be some events stylized as a way of showing how the character of that scene perceived the event or is just putting an emphasis or dramatic flair on things because they are telling a story. I always got the idea that Monogatari was like Koyomi telling these events from the future as if he was telling a stranger his life story.
On September 25 2017 13:54 Toadesstern wrote: but where do you draw the line on what's supernatural? Shinobu and Mayoi certainly are supernatural beings. Then what about the fight between Karen and Araragi during Nisemonogatari? Does that also count as a supernatural event because Araragi is a Vampire?
I guess we can differentiate between supernatural beings, such as Shinobu and Mayoi and just blatant depections of how characters experienced an event happening (in contrast to how it actually was) such as Nadeko's lock on her locker, the fight I just mentioned or Kanbaru living in a literal cave cave formed from BL novels
I think he is saying that in the story it is all supernatural but that the author is aware of (or intended to show) how this fictional world can be an allegory for problems people face in the real world
There can also be some events stylized as a way of showing how the character of that scene perceived the event or is just putting an emphasis or dramatic flair on things because they are telling a story. I always got the idea that Monogatari was like Koyomi telling these events from the future as if he was telling a stranger his life story.
Yeah that's the case. It's a story about someone (usually koyomi) telling a story~
On September 25 2017 13:54 Toadesstern wrote: but where do you draw the line on what's supernatural? Shinobu and Mayoi certainly are supernatural beings. Then what about the fight between Karen and Araragi during Nisemonogatari? Does that also count as a supernatural event because Araragi is a Vampire?
I guess we can differentiate between supernatural beings, such as Shinobu and Mayoi and just blatant depections of how characters experienced an event happening (in contrast to how it actually was) such as Nadeko's lock on her locker, the fight I just mentioned or Kanbaru living in a literal cave cave formed from BL novels
I think he is saying that in the story it is all supernatural but that the author is aware of (or intended to show) how this fictional world can be an allegory for problems people face in the real world
There can also be some events stylized as a way of showing how the character of that scene perceived the event or is just putting an emphasis or dramatic flair on things because they are telling a story. I always got the idea that Monogatari was like Koyomi telling these events from the future as if he was telling a stranger his life story.
Then your idea of character perception on scenes is probably most definitely what is happening but that doesn't mean the supernatural stuff is not going on as well.
On September 25 2017 13:54 Toadesstern wrote: but where do you draw the line on what's supernatural? Shinobu and Mayoi certainly are supernatural beings. Then what about the fight between Karen and Araragi during Nisemonogatari? Does that also count as a supernatural event because Araragi is a Vampire?
I guess we can differentiate between supernatural beings, such as Shinobu and Mayoi and just blatant depections of how characters experienced an event happening (in contrast to how it actually was) such as Nadeko's lock on her locker, the fight I just mentioned or Kanbaru living in a literal cave cave formed from BL novels
I think he is saying that in the story it is all supernatural but that the author is aware of (or intended to show) how this fictional world can be an allegory for problems people face in the real world
There can also be some events stylized as a way of showing how the character of that scene perceived the event or is just putting an emphasis or dramatic flair on things because they are telling a story. I always got the idea that Monogatari was like Koyomi telling these events from the future as if he was telling a stranger his life story.
Yeah that's the case. It's a story about someone (usually koyomi) telling a story~
To give some idea about why I kept thinking about it: I basicly thought of it as how we described it just now. But some time ago on irc Uta, who probably has the best japanese out of those reading it due to being Japanese and all, said that it all being just allegories was clear as day after just reading hitagi crab~ But then ragz and eca are more into the series but no idea what their stance on this is
Having successfully derailed this thread into monogatari again...
After reading the books as they've been coming out, to include the afterwords by the author, I think it's a blend - additionally, the scenes in the anime do not always line up with the scenes as described in the books. Karen and Araragi's fight, for example, is described mostly in terms of them fighting, but not so much in terms of "causing a great deal of urban renewal potential as overpasses are being destroyed". The fight in the books is real - Karen is using fighting techniques that are dangerous, and could kill someone. She is also still sick. The amount of danger Araragi is in is less, because he's somewhat immortal.
And that's where it gets difficult for it all to be just allegorical. Hanekawa can see Mayoi (she also doesn't want to go home). It's clearly indicated that Gahara did in fact weigh under 15 kg, which would mean absolutely dead without supernatural aspects. Shinobu was an idea planted in Araragi's head by Hanekawa, initially. The entire series, all of the events that occur, are kicked off because Araragi sees a girl's underwear and then that girl talks to him about vampires. Which he then meets. And + Show Spoiler +
because of the events we see in Nekomonogatari Shiro, we know Hanekawa seems to deal with trauma by denying reality in some fashion and creating aberrations; at least that's how I remember the tiger being explained
. Oh, and I also need to mention... Kaiki. Regardless of what happens to him and his current state... he's involved in the story, but he isn't directly involved in a way that would make it plausible for him to be anything other than a con man. And the way that con man fits in with all the other stories would be remarkably convenient if they were all just delusions of the younger characters. To say nothing of his past history, being college friends with the other specialists and with some nebulous tie to Kanbaru.
Of course, there's also the scenes which consist ONLY of the supernatural - Shinobu and the Cat talking, etc.
I also think you're all really reaching deep into the philosophy of the story, when said story's author mostly wasn't looking to plant those things in it by his own admission in his comments at the end of Bakemonogatari vol 1.
Also, Cat is the best girl, because without Cat there would be no Crab. Or anyone else. See above. Get rekt.
Further, unrelated to all of the above... love the donuts in the latest episode of New Game!! Subtle Shirobako reference on the sly.
On September 25 2017 15:18 felisconcolori wrote: Also, Cat is the best girl, because without Cat there would be no Crab. Or anyone else. See above. Get rekt.
There is only one worthy of best girl in the series
QED
The Yay alone makes puts her on top 3 GOAT best girl.
On September 25 2017 07:08 felisconcolori wrote: If you look at all of the monogatari series as also being a romantic comedy (which, since some people view it as a harem, might be acceptable), you do see it eschewing all of the various misunderstanding BS, having a reasonably decent romance in it in multiple ways; there is comedy, and it has not gone the "oh look they kiss! now go buy the books" route (granted, this is largely because Shaft wants to animate the shit out of everything to do with the series).
Monogatari is awesome but as you said the romance is not really the focus; it's a much more ambitious show in many ways.
On September 25 2017 07:08 felisconcolori wrote: Now that I have somehow forced Monogatari into the conversation, I will speak to Gamers.
Gamers isn't bad. It does however ride on the "if these people would just sit down together and say what they actually feel, it would all be cleared up pretty quickly" plot device. Even then, though, it just works because the misunderstandings, for the age and circumstances around them (high school gaming nerds that mostly have questionable social skills in a culture that isn't exactly known for being openly emotional) are handled pretty damned well. Yes, at times I want to say to the screen "YOU IDIOTS!" but they manage to frame them so that I'm laughing while I'm doing it, and it's kept to a level that is believable - it doesn't take heroic amounts of self-deceit and denial but just what might occur normally.
Eh, I think if there's a decent enough payoff it could still be worth it. Worked ok for Toradora! for instance.
On September 25 2017 07:08 felisconcolori wrote:
Centaur no Nayami is a trojan horse trying to sneak some strange commentary in with cute monster girls. And it worked, pretty much.
On September 25 2017 03:47 207aicila wrote: @Spazer how does Centaur no Nayami compare to winter season's Demi-chan wa Kataritai? Similar atmosphere? More on the chill side? More on the funny side? Is it as well executed?
Not comparable at all.
Centaur is a slice of life show that mixes in weird social commentary and incredibly strange world building in with its cute SOL antics. The main characters simply live in this strange world, they do not react a lot to its strangeness as it's just a part of their everyday life, despite how nearly dystopian it can seem at times.
Sadly centaur is haunted as a show by low production quality and a limited budget, but i enjoyed the anime adaption of the manga for what it was.
Pretty much this. Centaur no Nayami is less about monster girls and more about the really strange commentary.
While there were some definite quality issues, for a show like this it doesn't matter too much. Not like there's much action, after all.
What is this "really strange commentary"? Just social issues? Is it more on like a thinly veiled metaphor for real life stuff, or is it actually tailored to this different world and its different monster girls?
On September 25 2017 04:19 207aicila wrote: Does anyone know any super obscure show that for some reason isn't talked about, that actually has good romance as I described previously?
Not exactly that obscure but worth mentioning anyways Orange, Koe no Katachi, Nana, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha and Kemonozume. Koe no Katachi is amazing and I'd recommend it to anyone regardless of what their favorite genre is, it's a movie.
I think it's hard to find lowkey animes with a great romance story since those shows are usually pretty wellknown due to their quality.
I've seen Maoyuu Maou Yuusha and to be honest I thought the romance was extremely forced. And by extremely forced I mean there is literally no reason for her to fall in love to such a huge degree just like that. As if that wasn't annoying enough, of course the writers make it so that most of their alone time is about awkward big boob fan service. >_>
But I felt like the other aspects of the show (like the worldbuilding, political intrigue and especially the angle of helping modernize the medieval world with inventions and shit) were quite engaging so I'd still recommend it for that. Oh, if you don't mind the fact that it's yet-another-13-episode-LN-adaptation-that-will-never-be-finished.
As for the others you mentioned, I haven't seen Koe no Katachi yet but from what I've read it's not supposed to be a romance? Like the people who have read the manga told me that it's an atonement story about a former bully, not a "but he gets the girl in the end" story. Did the film end up straying from that?
Nana's something I've had on my list for a while. Orange I was led to believe is full of stupid teen melodrama and misunderstandings. Kemonozume I don't believe I've heard of, I'll take a look and see what that's about.
-----------------------------
This thread is cool by the way, I should've come here sooner. A lot more interesting and a lot less aggravating compared to bigger Anime communities like /a/, /r/anime or MAL.
Sad that Centaur and Restaurant to another world are over. Both were pretty nice and relaxing shows. You knew that there won't be much tension. Guess this is the relaxing anime that I keep hearing about.
Decided to take a quick peek at some of the upcoming anime, this one caught my eye. Post-apocalyptic world with some survivors etc... Most of the other anime seem rather bland or frankly boring... https://myanimelist.net/anime/35838/Shoujo_Shuumatsu_Ryokou
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ntvQii0.gif)
