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On September 25 2017 03:44 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 02:12 Nagisama wrote:On September 25 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:On September 24 2017 22:49 ShurykaN wrote:
although the first two episodes set up the relationships nicely it falls flat on its face after that with ultra dense characters and misunderstandings like people never explaining themselves, thinking their love interest is cheating on them,
and too much relationship drama in general. Hmm that doesn't sound so good... I mean I've managed to enjoy some shows that did this, but I enjoyed them in spite of this problem rather than because of it. But after seeing a lot of anime like this where they just draw out the inevitable in tedious and frustrating ways with bad writing... idk. I guess I'll give it a shot still, and if it's not worth it I'll just stop watching partway through. Thanks everyone for your input. On September 25 2017 01:40 Nagisama wrote:On September 24 2017 22:49 ShurykaN wrote:Without spoiling too much + Show Spoiler +although the first two episodes set up the relationships nicely it falls flat on its face after that with ultra dense characters and misunderstandings like people never explaining themselves, thinking their love interest is cheating on them,
and too much relationship drama in general. Isn't this supposed to be about games? Why can't we have a cute show like K-on! or Lucky Star which has actual interesting content about things other than middleschool romance? Hope this explains more Your complaints are exactly what's written in the synopsis of the show =\ It's a show about people who play games and their relationships, not the actual games themselves. And unfortunately that there's a ton of stupid misunderstandings that go with it. Beyond the misunderstanding part (which is ultimately irrelevant to my case for instance), would you say that ShruykaN's complaints about the writing of the rom-com itself are accurate? Yeah that's a lot of complaints about trashy romcoms/harems. Misunderstandings that could easily be solved if the characters actually just talk to each other. But then the show would be over. If ShruykaN wants something like those, Ore Monogatari! is a relatively recent one that's like that, and is a pretty good romcom. It finds the comedy in something other than the misunderstandings. Why would the show be over? Why not just have good writing that deals with actual real world problems instead of imaginary problems created in their head by insecure teenagers? By far the biggest reason why I personally love CLANNAD: After Story is that it actually tackles questions such as: - What happens after you graduate from high school? - Joining the workforce - Getting married and living together - Having a child and others. Leaving aside personal opinions about the characters of CLANNAD or the emotional gutpunches that the writers employ (because some people love to be contrarian about this) simply touching on those topics to begin with, in a competent way, is enough to make it easily one of the top 5 romance anime I've ever seen. Somewhat similar would be Honey & Clover which is set in an art university and ends up covering issues like: - I'm in college and I have no idea what the fuck I want out of life - How do I stop loving this person who clearly turned me down on multiple occasions and move on with my life - How can I get close to the person I love who is much older than me and also happens to carry some very serious emotional baggage from previous relationships and others. I resent the notion that there cannot be compelling romance or love-fuelled drama without childish misunderstandings. And for the complete opposite approach, you have Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou (His and Her Circumstances) which is a high school rom-com produced by Gainax in 1999 and wherein the comedy and romance are NEVER at odds with one another, wherein tropes are always quickly and cleverly subverted, and everything feels very natural and expertly executed. That's a big ass off-topic huh. Sorry for the rant, I'm just very bitter about the lack of excellent romance in anime... --------------------------------------- If anyone else finds themselves as frustrated as I am at the state of romance anime, maybe check a look at Tsurezure Children which just finished airing earlier this week. It's like they took a bunch of different high school romance stories and only serve you the moneyshots, no tedious excruciating waits for anything to happen, no more suffering from a complete lack of escalation for episodes on end, just full on adorableness and comedy.
but I don't think Gamers every tried to be something like that or tried to look like something like that?
It's quite obviously a light-hearted romcom with a focus on the comedy. It's not a drama series that tries to be serious in the first place.
To me it sounds like you wanted it to be a completly different genre rather than a critique of it being bad within it's genre.
It's like... I wouldn't expect something like Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu to be all grown-up either when it's quite obvious from first glance that it's not attempting to be anything like that. That just means you don't like this particular kind of genre/series imo
Also unrelated, as I'm watching last episode of knights & Magic right now: man that show was shit aside from maybe the first 1-3 episodes or so but kept watching because Takahashi Rie. She didn't actually impress me as much. Certainly not as much as Tenchan in ReCreators for example. But this last episode the moment I'm currently at + Show Spoiler +MC trying to defend the princess from the suicide dragon; around 12:53 for people watching HS~
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On September 25 2017 03:47 207aicila wrote:
@Spazer how does Centaur no Nayami compare to winter season's Demi-chan wa Kataritai? Similar atmosphere? More on the chill side? More on the funny side? Is it as well executed?
Not comparable at all.
Centaur is a slice of life show that mixes in weird social commentary and incredibly strange world building in with its cute SOL antics. The main characters simply live in this strange world, they do not react a lot to its strangeness as it's just a part of their everyday life, despite how nearly dystopian it can seem at times.
Sadly centaur is haunted as a show by low production quality and a limited budget, but i enjoyed the anime adaption of the manga for what it was.
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On September 25 2017 03:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 03:44 207aicila wrote:On September 25 2017 02:12 Nagisama wrote:On September 25 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:On September 24 2017 22:49 ShurykaN wrote:
although the first two episodes set up the relationships nicely it falls flat on its face after that with ultra dense characters and misunderstandings like people never explaining themselves, thinking their love interest is cheating on them,
and too much relationship drama in general. Hmm that doesn't sound so good... I mean I've managed to enjoy some shows that did this, but I enjoyed them in spite of this problem rather than because of it. But after seeing a lot of anime like this where they just draw out the inevitable in tedious and frustrating ways with bad writing... idk. I guess I'll give it a shot still, and if it's not worth it I'll just stop watching partway through. Thanks everyone for your input. On September 25 2017 01:40 Nagisama wrote:On September 24 2017 22:49 ShurykaN wrote:Without spoiling too much + Show Spoiler +although the first two episodes set up the relationships nicely it falls flat on its face after that with ultra dense characters and misunderstandings like people never explaining themselves, thinking their love interest is cheating on them,
and too much relationship drama in general. Isn't this supposed to be about games? Why can't we have a cute show like K-on! or Lucky Star which has actual interesting content about things other than middleschool romance? Hope this explains more Your complaints are exactly what's written in the synopsis of the show =\ It's a show about people who play games and their relationships, not the actual games themselves. And unfortunately that there's a ton of stupid misunderstandings that go with it. Beyond the misunderstanding part (which is ultimately irrelevant to my case for instance), would you say that ShruykaN's complaints about the writing of the rom-com itself are accurate? Yeah that's a lot of complaints about trashy romcoms/harems. Misunderstandings that could easily be solved if the characters actually just talk to each other. But then the show would be over. If ShruykaN wants something like those, Ore Monogatari! is a relatively recent one that's like that, and is a pretty good romcom. It finds the comedy in something other than the misunderstandings. Why would the show be over? Why not just have good writing that deals with actual real world problems instead of imaginary problems created in their head by insecure teenagers? By far the biggest reason why I personally love CLANNAD: After Story is that it actually tackles questions such as: - What happens after you graduate from high school? - Joining the workforce - Getting married and living together - Having a child and others. Leaving aside personal opinions about the characters of CLANNAD or the emotional gutpunches that the writers employ (because some people love to be contrarian about this) simply touching on those topics to begin with, in a competent way, is enough to make it easily one of the top 5 romance anime I've ever seen. Somewhat similar would be Honey & Clover which is set in an art university and ends up covering issues like: - I'm in college and I have no idea what the fuck I want out of life - How do I stop loving this person who clearly turned me down on multiple occasions and move on with my life - How can I get close to the person I love who is much older than me and also happens to carry some very serious emotional baggage from previous relationships and others. I resent the notion that there cannot be compelling romance or love-fuelled drama without childish misunderstandings. And for the complete opposite approach, you have Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou (His and Her Circumstances) which is a high school rom-com produced by Gainax in 1999 and wherein the comedy and romance are NEVER at odds with one another, wherein tropes are always quickly and cleverly subverted, and everything feels very natural and expertly executed. That's a big ass off-topic huh. Sorry for the rant, I'm just very bitter about the lack of excellent romance in anime... --------------------------------------- If anyone else finds themselves as frustrated as I am at the state of romance anime, maybe check a look at Tsurezure Children which just finished airing earlier this week. It's like they took a bunch of different high school romance stories and only serve you the moneyshots, no tedious excruciating waits for anything to happen, no more suffering from a complete lack of escalation for episodes on end, just full on adorableness and comedy. but I don't think Gamers every tried to be something like that or tried to look like something like that? It's quite obviously a light-hearted romcom with a focus on the comedy. It's not a drama series that tries to be serious in the first place. To me it sounds like you wanted it to be a completly different genre rather than a critique of it being bad within it's genre. It's like... I wouldn't expect something like Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu to be all grown-up either when it's quite obvious from first glance that it's not attempting to be anything like that. That just means you don't like this particular kind of genre/series imo
You're right and I recognized that from the very beginning; I just got a little triggered by the notion that if there were no misunderstanding "there would be no show".
But regardless I would like to ask the question: why is it that 99.99% of romance anime follow this exact same bullshit instead of having a more adult story (and I don't mean that in a sexual way) like the shows I brought up?
Because when all the romance anime does the same "tease the viewers for 13 or 26 episodes then finally show a kiss at the end; don't forget to read the manga! *wink*" bullshit, sure it's fine for the first 5-10 times, it's fine if the comedy is good, but when you have seen as many as I have you just get a little frustrated.
I'm not even hating on any show specifically, I springboarded from Gamers! to here and it's no longer about Gamers!, I just want to know why the thing that I like exists in such little amount. :/
Does anyone know any super obscure show that for some reason isn't talked about, that actually has good romance as I described previously?
+EDIT: Actually I'll throw another one out there. This year's Tsuki ga Kirei was refreshingly solid in its execution and didn't rely too much on bullshit, while also having decent pacing and escalation and pretty good payoff. The irony being that it's set in a middle school not a high school, and yet the story is so much more ballsy and daring and authentic. I guess that's the power of being an anime original instead of a shoujo manga adaptation. 
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On September 25 2017 02:12 Nagisama wrote:
If ShruykaN wants something like those, Ore Monogatari! is a relatively recent one that's like that, and is a pretty good romcom. It finds the comedy in something other than the misunderstandings.
I watched Ore Monogatari and it was cute as hell 
Although I didn't read the synopsis for Gamers! it was obvious that it was a generic romcom trash show pretty quickly, which is kind of what I expected from anime post Keijo!! era. If you look at it that way my complaints could boil down to the genre sucking.
+ Show Spoiler +and it was getting way too many positive reviews on this thread so I needed to bring the negativity 
Obviously comparing Gamers! to Clannad is unfair but I wholeheartedly agree with 207aicila's point that romantic anime should take that direction instead.
OWARIMONOGATI AOTS
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Canada8033 Posts
On September 25 2017 03:54 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 03:47 207aicila wrote:
@Spazer how does Centaur no Nayami compare to winter season's Demi-chan wa Kataritai? Similar atmosphere? More on the chill side? More on the funny side? Is it as well executed? Not comparable at all. Centaur is a slice of life show that mixes in weird social commentary and incredibly strange world building in with its cute SOL antics. The main characters simply live in this strange world, they do not react a lot to its strangeness as it's just a part of their everyday life, despite how nearly dystopian it can seem at times. Sadly centaur is haunted as a show by low production quality and a limited budget, but i enjoyed the anime adaption of the manga for what it was.
Pretty much this. Centaur no Nayami is less about monster girls and more about the really strange commentary.
While there were some definite quality issues, for a show like this it doesn't matter too much. Not like there's much action, after all.
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If you look at all of the monogatari series as also being a romantic comedy (which, since some people view it as a harem, might be acceptable), you do see it eschewing all of the various misunderstanding BS, having a reasonably decent romance in it in multiple ways; there is comedy, and it has not gone the "oh look they kiss! now go buy the books" route (granted, this is largely because Shaft wants to animate the shit out of everything to do with the series).
Obviously, the romantic comedy aspect of Monogatari is not remotely the focus. But it does have reasonable elements of that genre - in Araragi's relationships with Hanekawa, Senjogahara, mostly, but here and there with all of the girls on the show; also between Senjogahara and Kanbaru; etc. Each specific potential romantic interaction is either handled extremely lightly in a comedic way, more realistically in a serious fashion, or as more of an implied situation. Removing all of the various extraneous parts, there aren't insane misunderstandings that defy logic used to string anyone along, the romance aspects are pretty well done, and there is a realism to the relationships and how they resolve out (so far at least; I haven't watched the last ep of Owarimonogatari yet, but based on what was in Hanamonogatari, I think it's not going to throw everything into chaos in the long term pairing).
One girl gets the happy ending in the romance, and most of the other girls are all then dealing with it and handling it in a more or less realistic way. + Show Spoiler +Okay. Creating a psychic tiger that sets things on fire may not be entirely realistic. But actually trying to move on from there by adding distance? That's kindof normal.
Now that I have somehow forced Monogatari into the conversation, I will speak to Gamers.
Gamers isn't bad. It does however ride on the "if these people would just sit down together and say what they actually feel, it would all be cleared up pretty quickly" plot device. Even then, though, it just works because the misunderstandings, for the age and circumstances around them (high school gaming nerds that mostly have questionable social skills in a culture that isn't exactly known for being openly emotional) are handled pretty damned well. Yes, at times I want to say to the screen "YOU IDIOTS!" but they manage to frame them so that I'm laughing while I'm doing it, and it's kept to a level that is believable - it doesn't take heroic amounts of self-deceit and denial but just what might occur normally.
Centaur no Nayami is a trojan horse trying to sneak some strange commentary in with cute monster girls. And it worked, pretty much.
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On September 25 2017 04:19 207aicila wrote:
Does anyone know any super obscure show that for some reason isn't talked about, that actually has good romance as I described previously?
Not exactly that obscure but worth mentioning anyways Orange, Koe no Katachi, Nana, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha and Kemonozume. Koe no Katachi is amazing and I'd recommend it to anyone regardless of what their favorite genre is, it's a movie.
I think it's hard to find lowkey animes with a great romance story since those shows are usually pretty wellknown due to their quality.
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To be fair 2 girls "win" in monogatari and 1 girl suffers and the rest of the cast weren't really interested.
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Nadeko + Hanekawa I would put in the same camp more or less. Idk what to make of the sisters tbh since they're getting shafted so much, Karen in particular. Mayoi is also kind of weird I'd say. Not fitting any of those 3 groups you put up, at least for me.
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I actually forgot about Nadeko, but then again she had s9 many issues outside of her crush that its hard to tell. She seems to be getting better tho.
The sisters had like a shallow crush that really wasn't much of anything and would have gone 0 places if Koyomi wasn't the pervert he is. They are over it.
Mayoi was never rom interested lol.
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+ Show Spoiler +Adult Mayoi might have been interested given enough time. Also, is this old enough to even require a spoiler?
I wouldn't put Nadeko and Hanekawa in the same camp... Nadeko never had a chance with Araragi. Hanekawa, though, if she had been more assertive (like Senjo) might have had a shot. I mean, it was enough of a possibility that just about everyone thought Araragi would pick Hanekawa, even Senjo + Show Spoiler +as it was the way Hanekawa bullied her into letting Araragi go during the first Keiki arc
Mayoi was more of platonically romantic interest. I mean, sure, she was like 12, but she was 12 for 10 years and much smarter than generally given credit for. I put Mayoi, Shinobu, and Ononoki more or less in the same spot - they all have reasons to like Araragi but it's pretty much a given out of all of them that he's not going to wind up with them. (Unless something crazy happens in Owari I haven't seen yet.) That's more of the "light" romcom aspect - the kind of gags like when Tsukihi opens the door, Ononoki is all about his abs, and Mayoi trying to bite his fingers off.
Forgetting about Nadeko is usually the best idea. Worst girl by far.
Also, I don't know that I'd say Orange is a romantic comedy; it's just good romance. Chihiyafuru would be decent if it weren't really a sports anime hiding behind romance. Other ones that tend to come to my mind are all already fairly well known or are not really romantic comedy but straight romance with some funny parts at times.
Dammit, now I really would like another season of OreGairu. Or two. However many it takes to get through the main story.
Yamada and the Seven Witches isn't too bad; but only what was animated. If you read the manga, stop there. The whole thing gets to be a bloody mess afterwards.
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Slaughter said there was only 1 girl that suffers. I meant that I'd put Nadeko and Hanekawa both in the same camp (meant it specifically in that regard) because both were clearly interested and got rejected. Of course the characters are vastly different in a lot of ways but when talking about who wins and who loses... at the very least they're both not getting their way with the MC.
And idk about Mayoi. I always got that "if I had my grown up body I might be interested in something starting but I'm very much aware that nothing's going to happen like this" vibe from her. I don't think you kiss someone on the mouth if you're not at least somewhat interested, no matter what the situation at hand was.
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On September 25 2017 10:06 felisconcolori wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Adult Mayoi might have been interested given enough time. Also, is this old enough to even require a spoiler? I wouldn't put Nadeko and Hanekawa in the same camp... Nadeko never had a chance with Araragi. Hanekawa, though, if she had been more assertive (like Senjo) might have had a shot. I mean, it was enough of a possibility that just about everyone thought Araragi would pick Hanekawa, even Senjo + Show Spoiler +as it was the way Hanekawa bullied her into letting Araragi go during the first Keiki arc . There's a whole arc about how Hanekawa and Araragi finally deal with the whole underlying issue. (Okay, it's mostly Hanekawa, Hanekawa, Hanekawa, and Gahara.) The sisters have their own boyfriends; I wonder if any of the spin offs deal with that in the novels. It'd make an interesting spin off series, maybe, if you downplay all the supernatural and just the kind of things the Fire Sisters were up to when they weren't on screen. Mayoi was more of platonically romantic interest. I mean, sure, she was like 12, but she was 12 for 10 years and much smarter than generally given credit for. I put Mayoi, Shinobu, and Ononoki more or less in the same spot - they all have reasons to like Araragi but it's pretty much a given out of all of them that he's not going to wind up with them. (Unless something crazy happens in Owari I haven't seen yet.) That's more of the "light" romcom aspect - the kind of gags like when Tsukihi opens the door, Ononoki is all about his abs, and Mayoi trying to bite his fingers off. Forgetting about Nadeko is usually the best idea. Worst girl by far. Also, I don't know that I'd say Orange is a romantic comedy; it's just good romance. Chihiyafuru would be decent if it weren't really a sports anime hiding behind romance. Other ones that tend to come to my mind are all already fairly well known or are not really romantic comedy but straight romance with some funny parts at times. Dammit, now I really would like another season of OreGairu. Or two. However many it takes to get through the main story. Yamada and the Seven Witches isn't too bad; but only what was animated. If you read the manga, stop there. The whole thing gets to be a bloody mess afterwards.
Mayoi really just sees a kindred spirit from a guy who actually was able to "see" her and they bonded. Ononoki doesn't even understand romance and relationships in that way and Shinobu doesn't want a romance, she has everything she wants with Koyomi as a companion.
Koyomi's nature as a pervert kinda injects sexualization into things but most just deal with it because like him as a person beyond that personal failing of his. The only ones who really wanted to date/marry him were Hanekawa, Hitagi, and Nadeko. The sisters had a fleeting crush on their brother and Kanbaru was in love with Hitagi but then bonded with Koyomi over their shared pervertedness and trolling.
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I dunno. I think Kanbaru might give Koyomi a shot if he really was interested and Gahara was okay with it. But yeah, mostly it's just friendly camaraderie from two perverts. If Gahara was ever serious about a threesome though? I think she'd be there.
Out of all of them, I do feel sorry for Hanekawa. She was there first, could have locked down Koyomi, and then the rest of the show probably would have been very different. But she had other issues, doesn't have Gahara's force of personality and willingness to just try and take what she wants, and was probably waiting for Koyomi. Kindof like how Sodochi was waiting for Koyomi, but in a different way.
I don't think anyone in that show failed to have some kind of significant issue; maybe his sisters were pretty normal. The rest all had some pretty serious trauma going on. As I've been reading the released novel translations, I think the animations have done pretty good conveying all of that.
Especially for something that the author pretty much just wanted to write as a fun novel crammed full of stupid exchanges.
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Yea the novels are pretty good, I am glad they started releasing them in english.
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Cat is worse than Nadeko
Tbh, ever since someone brought up that idea that a lot of stuff in Monogatari, the monsters in particular, are allegories I've been thinking about that for a bit. That seems like a more interesting topic to me, especially since I don't have any RL friends who are into Monogatari...
For me it's always been that I always thought they are to some degree but I never was quite sure how far that goes but the reddit link made me think about it. If just to put my own thoughts about it into words myself. And quite honestly I'm still not really sure to what degree it is.
I can say clearly that I believe a lot of it to be depictions of things the way characters perceived things to be rather than how they actually are. That to me is an important thing to the series as a whole that I've mentioned countless times.
The examples I mostly bring up are stuff like: Nisemonogatari the fight with Karen. For me it's obvious that's not actually how things went down. Koyomi and Karen had a quarrel and it might have felt like an epic brawl to them with bridges collapsing etc but surely that didn't actually happen. I think that's something almost everyone can agree with, right?
Another example of that from Nisemonogatari would be Nadeko's locked locker. In the beginning of Nise we see her locking it with some hightech keypad security thingie while later in Koimonogatari we see the same thing with Kaiki turn into a simply "rotate it to the left with a coin and it unlocks" thingie. Man these things are hard in english. Anyways, another example for something where obviously we got to see how the character (Nadeko) perceived it, rather than how it actually was. Or just generally the Araragi household. I don't think for a second their house looks anything like what we're shown, especially the living room and the bathroom.
And then we move on to things that are a bit more controversial. Did Senjougahara LITERALLY meet a giant crab that took away her emotions and weight or was that monster an allegory about how she perceived her problem? To me that also was something I always quite comfortably put into the: she didn't LITERALLY meet a giant crab category
But then I ran into troubles thinking about the others. What does that make of Shinobu? What does that make of Mayoi? If we want to argue that monsters are allegories are they even people? Or are they part of other people, say Araragi? I could see that with Shinobu I think. But it's getting kind of uncomfortable for me here thinking about the others.
The notion that only people that have had contact with the supernatural can see mayoi kind of fits I guess but that's just too much for me personally.
So what's your stance on that? Take it literal and it's all supernatural after all? It's completly devoid of the supernatural and somehow it all makes sense and I just didn't see it yet? Thinking too much about, acknowledging that it won't fit 100% because it wasn't thought through in the beginning as it just started as "random" short stories he put together without realizing that he'd be writing them for years to come?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
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Poll: Zoo poll! Who is best girl?Crab (14) 44% Snail (1) 3% Snake (2) 6% Monkey (1) 3% Cat (1) 3% Bat (4) 13% Bee (1) 3% Phoenix (2) 6% Gaen (0) 0% Kaiki (3) 9% Yozuru (1) 3% Ononoki (1) 3% Sodachi (0) 0% Ougi (1) 3% Higasa (0) 0% Rouka Numachi (0) 0% Mamaragi (0) 0% 32 total votes Your vote: Zoo poll! Who is best girl? (Vote): Crab
(Vote): Snail
(Vote): Snake
(Vote): Monkey
(Vote): Cat
(Vote): Bat
(Vote): Bee
(Vote): Phoenix
(Vote): Gaen
(Vote): Kaiki
(Vote): Yozuru
(Vote): Ononoki
(Vote): Sodachi
(Vote): Ougi
(Vote): Higasa
(Vote): Rouka Numachi
(Vote): Mamaragi
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
I see kaiki has made it into the poll, clearly just like best girl of the Season is astolfo
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EPT
