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On January 21 2012 04:13 Ecael wrote: People make sounds, people memorized a certain order sounds come out, people slap said card using process of elimination. It is nice and all to want to include the random things in there or to leave a ton of shit romanized so people can follow, but frankly that's useless for market penetration. Crunchy is operating a business here.
At that I don't even see the point of bothering to wait for something like Saitei's unless some aspect of their translation draws you. All the cultural meaning behind karuta lies in the phrases used, there is no meaning whatsoever in the 'sport' itself. So yeah if you like that aspect of Japanese literature, all the power to you. I'd recommend you go buy a book and read those instead of bothering with watching an anime about karuta.
But when I watch a Go/Chess/Shougi series I watch it for the deep symbolism regarding each piece, each location, and what it means in relation to the culture that sport was invented in Why should karuta be any different, or are you just discriminating against card games?
For you I recommend this masterpiece.
OMG LOL THIS IS SO GOOD
I never noticed this. Do you guys think this scene, too, just like many others, was actually given this much thought? (mostly referring to TL Note #2). And I won't spoil it but when I say many others, if you finished the series I'm sure you know what I mean.
Yes, too much thought given. That scene was stupid, anyway. Aers had the right idea.
On January 21 2012 04:13 Ecael wrote: People make sounds, people memorized a certain order sounds come out, people slap said card using process of elimination. It is nice and all to want to include the random things in there or to leave a ton of shit romanized so people can follow, but frankly that's useless for market penetration. Crunchy is operating a business here.
Because they speak Japanese too quickly and I can't understand them with my very very limited experience with the language. I can't pick out the words they use to refer to the cards from the rest of the words they use. I want to see the subtitles help me out here instead of taking the meaning out of the things the characters say.
What is Commie's excuse then? They are making a poor choice in translating things that are important to understanding the anime. Therefore, Commie's subs are inferior to Saitei's. And Crunchysub's are just as bad.
At that I don't even see the point of bothering to wait for something like Saitei's unless some aspect of their translation draws you. All the cultural meaning behind karuta lies in the phrases used, there is no meaning whatsoever in the 'sport' itself. So yeah if you like that aspect of Japanese literature, all the power to you. I'd recommend you go buy a book and read those instead of bothering with watching an anime about karuta.
I don't care about Japanese culture. I was using that as an example where translating loses meaning of the said thing. It is very similar to this.
If you have enough time to complain about a volunteer service, I recommend you just learn the language. It isn't exactly hard. Either way, I don't exactly see any reason that subtitles need to help you with that, especially if you aren't trying to learn about the tanka (iirc, don't think there are any choka used). Also I don't feel like it is important to understanding the anime at all, invariably it is just process of elimination based on what they have heard already.
Anyways, I don't use subs, wasn't commie just repackaged Horriblesub?
Like Michael said, there are times where you need to accept loss in context so things make sense at all in the language that you speak. Sometimes that means you lean toward very literal translations w/ plenty of notes and that certainly can work. More often than not people aren't anal and just try to understand things with the contexts that they have. If you are anal about the former, you might as well as go learn the language and read source.
Yes, I am kind of anal about that kind of stuff. Yes, I learned the languages I needed to read those things' sources.
Yeah Ok. Somehow "free" or "volunteer" are magic words that escape things from criticism. Am I not allowed to dislike things? What a bullshit argument.
Last time I checked, beggars can't be choosers. So yes, free and volunteer are in fact magical words that renders criticism worthless. Take it or leave it, or hope that they share similar views as you and take your opinion for something. I do like how you ignore the actual points and went on to whine about your rights to hate on things.
You are certainly allowed to dislike things, you are also crazy if you think if 'constructive criticism' amounts to anything to people who aren't asking for them.
I didn't ignore a single argument. I pointed out why they were bad arguments and moved on. I'm not giving constructive critisism... I'm doing the opposite. I'm saying why crunchysubs and commie's subs for chihayafuru are bad and why people should be watching saitei's subs
Calling things bullshit = pointing out that they are bad arguments? I like this.
I'm saying why crunchysubs and commie's subs for chihayafuru are bad and why people should be watching saitei's subs
Am I not allowed to dislike bad arguments? What a bullshit argument.
All this talk about fansubs reminds me of that fansub documentary that was released 4 years ago.
While I don't agree 100% with it, most of it makes sense.
actually watched the whole thing x.x
A lot of it makes sense but I disagree with many things as well. I think the biggest problem is that he's comparing fansubbers to professionals. They aren't pros and they aren't trying to be pros. Their work isn't professional? Well yeah, because they aren't professional translators. A lot certainly go overboard, but if it was really as bad as he's trying to make it seem, then no one would watch their subs. As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for," and if it's free, you can't complain about the quality.
I do have one question that came up, for those knowledgeable about Japanese. He complained about how translators would translate characters who said their own name into speaking in 3rd person which is completely unnatural and how it's just normal 1st person speech in Japanese. I've run into that a few rare times and thought it was because the person actually was speaking unnaturally in 3rd person, so it was translated that way. Were those subs just being stupid or are there actual times in manga/anime where characters are speaking in such an unnatural way?
On January 21 2012 04:13 Ecael wrote: People make sounds, people memorized a certain order sounds come out, people slap said card using process of elimination. It is nice and all to want to include the random things in there or to leave a ton of shit romanized so people can follow, but frankly that's useless for market penetration. Crunchy is operating a business here.
Because they speak Japanese too quickly and I can't understand them with my very very limited experience with the language. I can't pick out the words they use to refer to the cards from the rest of the words they use. I want to see the subtitles help me out here instead of taking the meaning out of the things the characters say.
What is Commie's excuse then? They are making a poor choice in translating things that are important to understanding the anime. Therefore, Commie's subs are inferior to Saitei's. And Crunchysub's are just as bad.
At that I don't even see the point of bothering to wait for something like Saitei's unless some aspect of their translation draws you. All the cultural meaning behind karuta lies in the phrases used, there is no meaning whatsoever in the 'sport' itself. So yeah if you like that aspect of Japanese literature, all the power to you. I'd recommend you go buy a book and read those instead of bothering with watching an anime about karuta.
I don't care about Japanese culture. I was using that as an example where translating loses meaning of the said thing. It is very similar to this.
If you have enough time to complain about a volunteer service, I recommend you just learn the language. It isn't exactly hard. Either way, I don't exactly see any reason that subtitles need to help you with that, especially if you aren't trying to learn about the tanka (iirc, don't think there are any choka used). Also I don't feel like it is important to understanding the anime at all, invariably it is just process of elimination based on what they have heard already.
Anyways, I don't use subs, wasn't commie just repackaged Horriblesub?
Like Michael said, there are times where you need to accept loss in context so things make sense at all in the language that you speak. Sometimes that means you lean toward very literal translations w/ plenty of notes and that certainly can work. More often than not people aren't anal and just try to understand things with the contexts that they have. If you are anal about the former, you might as well as go learn the language and read source.
Yes, I am kind of anal about that kind of stuff. Yes, I learned the languages I needed to read those things' sources.
Yeah Ok. Somehow "free" or "volunteer" are magic words that escape things from criticism. Am I not allowed to dislike things? What a bullshit argument.
Last time I checked, beggars can't be choosers. So yes, free and volunteer are in fact magical words that renders criticism worthless. Take it or leave it, or hope that they share similar views as you and take your opinion for something. I do like how you ignore the actual points and went on to whine about your rights to hate on things.
You are certainly allowed to dislike things, you are also crazy if you think if 'constructive criticism' amounts to anything to people who aren't asking for them.
I didn't ignore a single argument. I pointed out why they were bad arguments and moved on. I'm not giving constructive critisism... I'm doing the opposite. I'm saying why crunchysubs and commie's subs for chihayafuru are bad and why people should be watching saitei's subs
Calling things bullshit = pointing out that they are bad arguments? I like this.
I'm saying why crunchysubs and commie's subs for chihayafuru are bad and why people should be watching saitei's subs
Am I not allowed to dislike bad arguments? What a bullshit argument.
All this talk about fansubs reminds me of that fansub documentary that was released 4 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0 While I don't agree 100% with it, most of it makes sense.
actually watched the whole thing x.x
A lot of it makes sense but I disagree with many things as well. I think the biggest problem is that he's comparing fansubbers to professionals. They aren't pros and they aren't trying to be pros. Their work isn't professional? Well yeah, because they aren't professional translators. A lot certainly go overboard, but if it was really as bad as he's trying to make it seem, then no one would watch their subs. As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for," and if it's free, you can't complain about the quality.
I do have one question that came up, for those knowledgeable about Japanese. He complained about how translators would translate characters who said their own name into speaking in 3rd person which is completely unnatural and how it's just normal 1st person speech in Japanese. I've run into that a few rare times and thought it was because the person actually was speaking unnaturally in 3rd person, so it was translated that way. Were those subs just being stupid or are there actual times in manga/anime where characters are speaking in such an unnatural way?
I don't speak Japanese, but apparently speaking in 3rd person in Japan is something that young girls do, so its considered "cute". There really isn't an English equivalent to it, and if you speak in 3rd person in English, people are going to think you are crazy.
As far as that video goes, I agree on alot of things, except the thing about translating signs. IMO he even sets himself up for this. Right after he bitches about translating signs, he says "The aim of a translator is to give the viewer/reader the same experience as the original audience." If there is a sign in japanese, in the japanese anime, odds are that the original audience, the japanese, would be able to read it. Therefore, in order for the translator to give that same experience to the viewer/reader of his work, shouldn't that also be translated? He likes to talk about professional translations alot, but even that bites him in the ass. Old Godzilla movies that were dubbed and brought over to America have English signs along with the Japanese. PROFESSIONALS did the same fucking thing, why is he complaining? His example of Star Wars, with translating signs in an alien language to english is stupid. The original audience, English speakers, can't read alien. Therefore, there is no need to translate it. Similarly, if there was a sign in an anime that the japanese viewer would not be expected to read, there is no reason to translate it.
I agree with him about most other things in those videos, though. Strongly agree about TL notes, unless its something crucially important, keep the note out. His thing with the Last Samurai gets that point across extremely well. Don't not-translate lines that are hard to translate. One Piece is at fault here with the 'nakama' stuff, along with tons of other lines. IMO thiswould have been a good example for him to have used in this part, but he didn't. Flashy typesetting is annoying. His Lord of the Rings example was great here.
Yeah the signs complaint was probably his worst argument. TL notes, fancy typesetting and the karaoke stuff for OP songs I agree with. I'm a bit conflicted when he complains about subbers putting their own name and stuff though. I don't really see a problem with that, especially because it prevents other people from claiming it as their own. But he did bring up a good point about covering the original credits and them being unnecessarily large. The not translating because it's hard is true but some of these subbers are amateurs and lack translating skills or even good English and/or Japanese so you can't completely blame them other than for attempting something they're bad at. As for the more experienced ones, yeah it is unnecessary.
Ugh still more setup for the big Vintage battle. At first I was curious how they figured out Ayumi had a goddess, but this makes a lot more sense. Keima getting desperate asking Chihiro for help lol
The only think he has a point about with signs, is how they are included in the subbing. Sometimes they are subbed into the anime in ways that look really bad, but if it can be done skillfully so it doesn't look terrible, more power to them. Alot of his examples of bad ways of doing subs were like of early Naruto episodes, and other really old stuff. Now days, people can do them much more effectively, like just look at what UTW has done with Carnival Phantasm. Even if some signs are pointless to translate, there are anime where stuff like that is more or less required. Mirai Nikki is a good example, with their phone diaries.
I disagree with Ecael when he says that you cannot give constructive criticism to free things. You can, but on the internet people usually can't help but be an asshole about it (I know Eca loves his anal). At that point your intention isn't to give criticism any more but just to sound like a dumb smartass.
A simple "thank you" at the end means a lot to hard working volunteers and opens them up for listening.
Steins Gate Visual Novel (MAJOR SPOILERS even if you have FINISHED the anime) + Show Spoiler +
OMFG NAE (Braun's daughter) IS A YANDERE AND IS THE ONE WHO KILLED OKABE 15 YEARS AFTER THE PRESENT TIME DUE TO HIM (indirectly) KILLING BRAUN AND SHE TIME LEAPED OVER 2000 TIMES 15 YEARS BACK JUST TO KILL MOEKA WTF IS THIS WTFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU
On January 21 2012 23:20 deathray797 wrote: Steins Gate Visual Novel (MAJOR SPOILERS even if you have FINISHED the anime) + Show Spoiler +
OMFG NAE (Braun's daughter) IS A YANDERE AND IS THE ONE WHO KILLED OKABE 15 YEARS AFTER THE PRESENT TIME DUE TO HIM (indirectly) KILLING BRAUN AND SHE TIME LEAPED OVER 2000 TIMES 15 YEARS BACK JUST TO KILL MOEKA WTF IS THIS WTFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU
Spazzing done
LOL wow...
i haven't read/played the VN and won't anyways, but I can see that now lol.
On January 21 2012 23:20 deathray797 wrote: Steins Gate Visual Novel (MAJOR SPOILERS even if you have FINISHED the anime) + Show Spoiler +
OMFG NAE (Braun's daughter) IS A YANDERE AND IS THE ONE WHO KILLED OKABE 15 YEARS AFTER THE PRESENT TIME DUE TO HIM (indirectly) KILLING BRAUN AND SHE TIME LEAPED OVER 2000 TIMES 15 YEARS BACK JUST TO KILL MOEKA WTF IS THIS WTFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU
Spazzing done
Imagine my sadness when I saw that it wasn't included in the anime.
On January 21 2012 21:57 MichaelEU wrote: I disagree with Ecael when he says that you cannot give constructive criticism to free things. You can, but on the internet people usually can't help but be an asshole about it (I know Eca loves his anal). At that point your intention isn't to give criticism any more but just to sound like a dumb smartass.
A simple "thank you" at the end means a lot to hard working volunteers and opens them up for listening.
The point in question is too heavily debatable for me to consider it actual constructive criticism. Especially when it contributes very little to the audiences' comprehension in their native language.
On January 21 2012 21:57 MichaelEU wrote: I disagree with Ecael when he says that you cannot give constructive criticism to free things. You can, but on the internet people usually can't help but be an asshole about it (I know Eca loves his anal). At that point your intention isn't to give criticism any more but just to sound like a dumb smartass.
A simple "thank you" at the end means a lot to hard working volunteers and opens them up for listening.
But how constructive can criticism really be when you start pointing out things that the subbers are actually doing for a target audience and you dont happen to fall in that category? You might have a small margin where you can add useful input but for the most part theres no reason to really worry them about it. Let the ones who its aimed at criticize it, internet or otherwise.
EPT
Why should karuta be any different, or are you just discriminating against card games?![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kSK8n.jpg)
