EPT[Manga] One Piece - Page 224
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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing One Piece. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here. If an episode or a chapter has already been officially released, then it is not necessary to post using spoilers. If you have knowledge on a chapter that has not been officially released yet, do NOT post it in this thread. Ignoring this public note will result in a mod action. | ||
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ShurykaN
United States338 Posts
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:13 RebelSlayer wrote: I may have been slightly wrong with my all dragons being kids theory. Rofl I thought that too! | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:05 Forikorder wrote: Luffy could stretch immediately upon eating the gum gum fruit, the things he had to train was his aim at using his pistol take croc for instance, instantly upon eating the sand sand fruit he could turn to sand and suck up moisture but it took alot of training to make his sand blade and the tornado thing so Momosuke should isntantly know how to transform (just like square nose of C9 knew how to transform and the chick knew how to create bubbles) Well the Crocodile thing you have no evidence on. Luffy's natural state changed, he doesn't turn this "on" and "off". CP9 are a team of highly trained professionals who have mastered their body. If anyone is ready to adapt so quickly it would be someone like them. Momosuke is a young child on the verge of starvation who is confused about what's happened. Get some food in him, explain to him that he's a zoan and he'll probably understand what he needs to do from there. Maybe...having him stuck as a dragon is interesting though. Could play into a second, or later, arc. Could genuinely give the samurai a reason to travel with the strawhats for a moment. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On October 19 2012 20:09 bittman wrote: Well the Crocodile thing you have no evidence on. Luffy's natural state changed, he doesn't turn this "on" and "off". CP9 are a team of highly trained professionals who have mastered their body. If anyone is ready to adapt so quickly it would be someone like them. Momosuke is a young child on the verge of starvation who is confused about what's happened. Get some food in him, explain to him that he's a zoan and he'll probably understand what he needs to do from there. Maybe...having him stuck as a dragon is interesting though. Could play into a second, or later, arc. Could genuinely give the samurai a reason to travel with the strawhats for a moment. Luffy changed into a rubber man, but it took a loooong time before he learned how to use it well. Luffy has been developing new techniques all throughout the series. It´s a common theme that devil fruits are powerfull, but the fruit is dependant on the strength of the user, and a weak devil fruit-user, even a logia-user, will get defeated by strong fruit-less fighters. An example is Buggy, his fruit is weak, but he´s not the strongest pirate himself either, but if he himself got stronger, and better at splitting himself to avoid attacks and do sneak attacks, then he´d be a beast. The guards said that the dragon fruit was flawed. Perhaps that´s why Momo can´t turn back. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 19 2012 20:09 bittman wrote: Well the Crocodile thing you have no evidence on. Luffy's natural state changed, he doesn't turn this "on" and "off". CP9 are a team of highly trained professionals who have mastered their body. If anyone is ready to adapt so quickly it would be someone like them. Momosuke is a young child on the verge of starvation who is confused about what's happened. Get some food in him, explain to him that he's a zoan and he'll probably understand what he needs to do from there. Maybe...having him stuck as a dragon is interesting though. Could play into a second, or later, arc. Could genuinely give the samurai a reason to travel with the strawhats for a moment. also dont you think its odd that hes in full dragon mode without knowing how to transform? hard to say but i dont think that square nose instantly went full giraffe when he ate also blackbeard made an earthquake like 10 seconds after getting the fruit also i just noticed something, the skeleton that brooks shadow was attached to (well the OTHEr skeleton on morias island) was also from Wano, used fire when he fought and had something to dow tih dragons, maybe a distant relative? | ||
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Eshra
France1009 Posts
also blackbeard made an earthquake like 10 seconds after getting the fruit That's a different scenario. Blackbeard already had a fruit, meaning he has some experience and could very well master another fruit much faster. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On October 19 2012 23:39 Forikorder wrote: also dont you think its odd that hes in full dragon mode without knowing how to transform? hard to say but i dont think that square nose instantly went full giraffe when he ate also blackbeard made an earthquake like 10 seconds after getting the fruit also i just noticed something, the skeleton that brooks shadow was attached to (well the OTHEr skeleton on morias island) was also from Wano, used fire when he fought and had something to dow tih dragons, maybe a distant relative? Age might have a big effect on it, both momonosuke and luffy had trouble controlling it while they were kids | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 20 2012 01:16 Eshra wrote: That's a different scenario. Blackbeard already had a fruit, meaning he has some experience and could very well master another fruit much faster. i dunno what to say man, it seems like despite every single piece of information pointing that as soon as you eat a fruit you instinctively know the basic abilities is not enough evidence for you aparently a fcking deer can figure out how to transform but a kid can't.... also despite not knowing how to transform, hes in dragon form so seems like literally all evidence is pointing towards the fruit is a failure cause it forces the person into all dragon form and they cant change | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
Not everyone is able to immediately use it properly, but they can use it. There is a difference there. Luffy also had problems with using his DF. Remember his arms didn't recoil back in the beginning everytime he tried to stretch out. This is I think at least a showing of not being able to use it properly (not just with aiming or power delivery). We don't know why momonosuke still can't transform into the human hybrid dragon form. Maybe it is because of the failure of the DF as was mentioned or just that he isn't aware that he is capable of such. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 20 2012 13:48 17Sphynx17 wrote: Wait, isn't not about being able to present the power of the DF, it is about being able to use it properly right? Not everyone is able to immediately use it properly, but they can use it. There is a difference there. Luffy also had problems with using his DF. Remember his arms didn't recoil back in the beginning everytime he tried to stretch out. This is I think at least a showing of not being able to use it properly (not just with aiming or power delivery). We don't know why momonosuke still can't transform into the human hybrid dragon form. Maybe it is because of the failure of the DF as was mentioned or just that he isn't aware that he is capable of such. Luffys is different though, his DF turns his body into rubby, thats all it does, a side effect of being rubber is that he can stretch, thats the mastery croc talked about finding side effects that you can abuse Momosuke is a Zoan type he has 3 forms he can transform between at will, not being able to switch between forms is like Luffy being unable to stretch or Ace forgetting how to turn into fire it simply doesnt happen we have never EVER seen a single DF user unable to use part of there ability, every single logia type has attacks pass through them (aside from special attacks) every single Zoan transforms effortlessly we have never even heard a DF user say anything about having trouble figuring out how to transform (the closest is square nose accidently going full giraffe) theres simply not the tiniest scrap of evidence that saids that Momosuke should be having trouble transforming, that combined with the fruit being a failure means its almsot certain taht its a failure because he cant transform and what other way could it be a failure? hes a dragon, he can fly unless he cant breathe fire hes a fully functional dragon so the only way the fruit could be a failure is if he cant transform | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
On October 20 2012 13:57 Forikorder wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 20 2012 13:48 17Sphynx17 wrote: Wait, isn't not about being able to present the power of the DF, it is about being able to use it properly right? Not everyone is able to immediately use it properly, but they can use it. There is a difference there. Luffy also had problems with using his DF. Remember his arms didn't recoil back in the beginning everytime he tried to stretch out. This is I think at least a showing of not being able to use it properly (not just with aiming or power delivery). We don't know why momonosuke still can't transform into the human hybrid dragon form. Maybe it is because of the failure of the DF as was mentioned or just that he isn't aware that he is capable of such. Luffys is different though, his DF turns his body into rubby, thats all it does, a side effect of being rubber is that he can stretch, thats the mastery croc talked about finding side effects that you can abuse Momosuke is a Zoan type he has 3 forms he can transform between at will, not being able to switch between forms is like Luffy being unable to stretch or Ace forgetting how to turn into fire it simply doesnt happen we have never EVER seen a single DF user unable to use part of there ability, every single logia type has attacks pass through them (aside from special attacks) every single Zoan transforms effortlessly we have never even heard a DF user say anything about having trouble figuring out how to transform (the closest is square nose accidently going full giraffe) theres simply not the tiniest scrap of evidence that saids that Momosuke should be having trouble transforming, that combined with the fruit being a failure means its almsot certain taht its a failure because he cant transform and what other way could it be a failure? hes a dragon, he can fly unless he cant breathe fire hes a fully functional dragon so the only way the fruit could be a failure is if he cant transform Actually, my example of how Luffy extended but not revert to original length would be a good sample I believe. Basically he doesn't completely master the "off" switch yet or "revert" switch yet. So it is not an issue of Ace forgetting how to turn to fire but rather as being unable to switch off "flame mode". (I think to this extent would be a good comparison) Regarding CP9, these guys have training and may well be in fact verse enough to the differences in Zoan, Paramecia and Logia type fruits based on teachings to Cypher Pol through the government. Plus they are trained, so I think that counts for something when it comes to utilizing the fruit at least. We haven't also seen the complete backstory of Chopper yet have we? As to how it all started with him from Reindeer to doctor? Was it shown that after eating he was already versed in changing forms or was there at least a semblance of timeskip to allow him to "train" the use of his DF so he can be more "human". I don't recall the manga chapters so I would need a bit of help here. I reserve judgement after the manga chapters get out though and explain it some more but I am open to discussion of our ideas. I don't think it does any harm when we speculate. For me though, I think the failure is not about transformation but rather that since it was meant for military research, they were aiming for a dragon more along the lines of a western dragon (like the one the strawhats fought) so it was considered a failure from a military standpoint. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Because it monosuke cannot turn into a human hybrid form, it would sad for monosuke and his dad which (unless its a plot point to push that will lead the story to vegapunk to look for a cure) I don't see is happening. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 20 2012 14:15 17Sphynx17 wrote: Actually, my example of how Luffy extended but not revert to original length would be a good sample I believe. Basically he doesn't completely master the "off" switch yet or "revert" switch yet. So it is not an issue of Ace forgetting how to turn to fire but rather as being unable to switch off "flame mode". (I think to this extent would be a good comparison) Regarding CP9, these guys have training and may well be in fact verse enough to the differences in Zoan, Paramecia and Logia type fruits based on teachings to Cypher Pol through the government. Plus they are trained, so I think that counts for something when it comes to utilizing the fruit at least. We haven't also seen the complete backstory of Chopper yet have we? As to how it all started with him from Reindeer to doctor? Was it shown that after eating he was already versed in changing forms or was there at least a semblance of timeskip to allow him to "train" the use of his DF so he can be more "human". I don't recall the manga chapters so I would need a bit of help here. I reserve judgement after the manga chapters get out though and explain it some more but I am open to discussion of our ideas. I don't think it does any harm when we speculate. For me though, I think the failure is not about transformation but rather that since it was meant for military research, they were aiming for a dragon more along the lines of a western dragon (like the one the strawhats fought) so it was considered a failure from a military standpoint. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Because it monosuke cannot turn into a human hybrid form, it would sad for monosuke and his dad which (unless its a plot point to push that will lead the story to vegapunk to look for a cure) I don't see is happening. as for finding it sad you forget taht the strawhats jsut so happen to have the only doctor in existance that has carefully studied the Zoan fruits and has a drug that actually improves its abilities so if anyone can make Momosuke a kid again its Chopper Ace doesnt have a "non-fire" mode, you dont seem to understand Logias they dont switch states its completely automatic at any point in time if there attacked the attack slips through (aside from specific scenarios like Haki) there is no on or off switch and once again Luffys fruit and zoan fruits are different, the gum gum fruit only makes his body rubber, him stretching is bonus ability that can be learnt like Brooks soul travel thing all the attacks luffy does are bonus abilities not basic ability, his fruit does not have any basic abilities unlike zoan fruits who have the basic ability of transforming the only time weve seen anyone have trouble transforming is the CP9 guy who went full giraffe and Chopper after 2 rumble balls and i dont think we ever found out how Chopper ate the human human fruit, but he was a normal reindeer when he ate it and could still transform so obviously it has nothing to do with intelligence | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
On October 20 2012 14:23 Forikorder wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 20 2012 14:15 17Sphynx17 wrote: Actually, my example of how Luffy extended but not revert to original length would be a good sample I believe. Basically he doesn't completely master the "off" switch yet or "revert" switch yet. So it is not an issue of Ace forgetting how to turn to fire but rather as being unable to switch off "flame mode". (I think to this extent would be a good comparison) Regarding CP9, these guys have training and may well be in fact verse enough to the differences in Zoan, Paramecia and Logia type fruits based on teachings to Cypher Pol through the government. Plus they are trained, so I think that counts for something when it comes to utilizing the fruit at least. We haven't also seen the complete backstory of Chopper yet have we? As to how it all started with him from Reindeer to doctor? Was it shown that after eating he was already versed in changing forms or was there at least a semblance of timeskip to allow him to "train" the use of his DF so he can be more "human". I don't recall the manga chapters so I would need a bit of help here. I reserve judgement after the manga chapters get out though and explain it some more but I am open to discussion of our ideas. I don't think it does any harm when we speculate. For me though, I think the failure is not about transformation but rather that since it was meant for military research, they were aiming for a dragon more along the lines of a western dragon (like the one the strawhats fought) so it was considered a failure from a military standpoint. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Because it monosuke cannot turn into a human hybrid form, it would sad for monosuke and his dad which (unless its a plot point to push that will lead the story to vegapunk to look for a cure) I don't see is happening. as for finding it sad you forget taht the strawhats jsut so happen to have the only doctor in existance that has carefully studied the Zoan fruits and has a drug that actually improves its abilities so if anyone can make Momosuke a kid again its Chopper Ace doesnt have a "non-fire" mode, you dont seem to understand Logias they dont switch states its completely automatic at any point in time if there attacked the attack slips through (aside from specific scenarios like Haki) there is no on or off switch and once again Luffys fruit and zoan fruits are different, the gum gum fruit only makes his body rubber, him stretching is bonus ability that can be learnt like Brooks soul travel thing all the attacks luffy does are bonus abilities not basic ability, his fruit does not have any basic abilities unlike zoan fruits who have the basic ability of transforming the only time weve seen anyone have trouble transforming is the CP9 guy who went full giraffe and Chopper after 2 rumble balls and i dont think we ever found out how Chopper ate the human human fruit, but he was a normal reindeer when he ate it and could still transform so obviously it has nothing to do with intelligence Actually you don't get what I am saying about the Logias. If they are really always in that state as you say, then Ace and esp. Akainu cannot be on any surface flammable like ships and wooden floors. If there is no form of "off switch" for Logia's in terms of being in "normal" mode, then these guys are basically going to burn through everything and not even people can touch them or pat them on the back during drinking sessions. As for intelligence, well, if the fruit is human human fruit, then maybe the author thought this would have made him human like with human based intelligence with human brain potential which negates whether he had a deer brain previously. I think that counts for something at least. that's my take at least | ||
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Sindriss
Denmark263 Posts
Plus, the guard said the fruit was supposedly damaged, which again does not support your hypothesis that this is inconsistent with the OP universe. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On October 20 2012 14:41 17Sphynx17 wrote: Actually you don't get what I am saying about the Logias. If they are really always in that state as you say, then Ace and esp. Akainu cannot be on any surface flammable like ships and wooden floors. If there is no form of "off switch" for Logia's in terms of being in "normal" mode, then these guys are basically going to burn through everything and not even people can touch them or pat them on the back during drinking sessions. As for intelligence, well, if the fruit is human human fruit, then maybe the author thought this would have made him human like with human based intelligence with human brain potential which negates whether he had a deer brain previously. I think that counts for something at least. that's my take at least i misunderstood what you were talking about thought you meant that in order for stuff to pass through them they have to be in "fire mode" where there entire body is made of fire and only then does stuff pass through them but your talking about stuff like there special attacks point is noone has ever been unable to use there devil fruit, theres not a single piece of evidence anywhere that suggests that using the DF is int based, it seems to be completely instinctual to a Zoan fruit user transforming into the different modes is no different then breathing its jsut something they know how to do Kalifa could instantly create the soap bubbles square nose could instantly transform Blackbeard could instantly cause earthquakes we have seen at least 3 different people eat a fruit and instantly be able to use there abilities, your excuse that "CP9 have trained really hard so know how to work there bodies" to me is complete BS no matter how much you train to fight none of it apllys to trying to create bubbles out of thin air or turning into a giraffe and yes blackbeard did have an ability already but its completely different from the quake quake fruit just because Momosuke is not a western dragon also falls flat in my opinion, i wouldnt call a DF a failure if the end result is slightly different then you expected a dragon is still a dragon as long as theres 3 forms like all other Zoans then you succesfully made a DF, but he failed in making a DF so momosuke cant change back unless the failure is it doesnt naturally impart the instincts of how to change back so while he can he just cant figure out how to but that I cannot understand how you can keep saying that bs forikorder, since there is absolutely no evidence of what happens when a child eats a ZOAN type fruit. As another pointed out, he is a kid, so lack of control of your body is evident. You keep mentioning people eating zoan fruits, but they are all adults and highly trained individuals, how on earth do you think you can compare them with a starving kid? Plus, the guard said the fruit was supposedly damaged, which again does not support your hypothesis that this is inconsistent with the OP universe. he may be a kid but i see swords, i see what hes saying so its obvious hes been trained as a warrior since he was old enough to hold swords (however recent that may be) and he may be starving but id say his mental faculties are still perfectly fine and hes quite tough enough to handle hunger for as long as he had since he manages to escape, sneak around the fortress undetected, eavesdrop on Caeser and escape so id say calling him jsut a kid is like calling Chopper just a kid hes at least as tough as Luffy when Luffy was a kid so id say hes stronger then the average adult and hes from the country of wano so hes probably a pretty bad ass warrior in his own right the thing about DFs is in order for it to make the slightest amount of sense it has to be instinctual, it has to mess with your brain in some way that it makes perfect sense to you that you can do what it lets you do and you know how to do it or else your mind just wouldnt let you do stuff like pull your arm off and let it fly around then reattach it and i cant even comprehend how one would figure out how to transform by themselves with no help | ||
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RenSC2
United States1072 Posts
It is conceivable that Momonosuke's transformation problems are largely related to his lack of knowledge on Devil's Fruits combined with his young age and weakened state. He may simply know that he has turned into a dragon (from an instinctual drive) and have no idea why. He didn't know he could fly either, but when instinctively driven by fear, he was able to fly. However, he'll have to learn a little bit of control to turn back to human or do partial transformations. The other option also seems quite reasonable. The DF could by incomplete and only have one state as opposed to typical Zoan fruits. The fact that Momonosuke's human face is always shaded out seems like a very subtle hint to indicate that we may never actually see his human child form. The hint that it was a failed fruit also means something and is another indicator that Momo will permanently be a dragon. Finally, I look at Kinemon's hatred of dragons as a good indicator that Momo will be a dragon for a long time. Why would Oda create that hatred and then not use it to the fullest effect? Did he do it only to troll us with the killing of the little dragon? Seems doubtful. It'll be interesting to see how Oda handles the whole thing. So many possibilities. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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ore0z
Romania161 Posts
On October 19 2012 23:39 Forikorder wrote: also dont you think its odd that hes in full dragon mode without knowing how to transform? hard to say but i dont think that square nose instantly went full giraffe when he ate also blackbeard made an earthquake like 10 seconds after getting the fruit also i just noticed something, the skeleton that brooks shadow was attached to (well the OTHEr skeleton on morias island) was also from Wano, used fire when he fought and had something to dow tih dragons, maybe a distant relative? To be fair, Blackbeard's mimicked Whitebeard's stance and then mentioned afterwards that he doesn't have full control. Blackbeard also has knowledge on the Yami Yami fruit before hand (documentation), which was the reason why he knows how the fruit looks like and its powers. Brooke's true power is his soul (such as astral projection), but the only information he had (at that point) is that he has a second life. There's not much information supporting either. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
You´re bad enough that I recognize you. If there is confusion about fruit types, I think it was like this: + Show Spoiler + Logia get elemental power. Most of them can turn into their element(Enel-Lightning, Crocodile-Sand, Smoker-Smoke). Blackbeard has darkness logia, which doesn´t allow him that. The light fruit guy from the marine might have the same deal. Activating and deactivating is a willfull decision, else Luffy would have been unable to hit Enel or Smoker ever. Zoan get animal transformation. Full animal, full human(or what they were) and hybrid form. They get the power of the animal. Transformation is a willful decision(even though you can transform on accident). Paramecia are the superhuman or Übermensch type powers. Some of them are in fact always active. Buggy can never be cut, even when surprised, Luffy is always made of rubber. Others, like the quake quake fruit(whitebeard) or the wax wax fruit(mr 3) activate their powers at will(though one could argue that they are always active and they work at very low power i.e. making unnoticably small quakes all the time). I get the impression one or 2 people forgot how they work. Anyway, from a story telling point Momosuke being unable to transform back because of faulty DF seems the most likely. It brings the most tension(his dad hates dragons, necessitates a cure is found) as opposed to it being not strong enough fighting wise(he transforms back into a kid and goes home with his dad). I could see Samurai-bro and Momosuke tagging along like Vivi. Whose ready to free Wano from a plot to overthrow the government? | ||
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b3n3tt3
595 Posts
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