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Movie Discussion! - Page 398
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farvacola
United States18840 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On February 25 2018 15:39 IgnE wrote: with great power comes great responsibility. i don't think he did the "best" he could have. he did a fine job, sure, but let's not oversell it. an interesting villain with somewhat confusing motivations, implausibly mercurial reactions (is he a coldblooded psychopathic killer or a sensitive soul?), and oppressive imperialist impulses. overt political themes. it has some strong suits. its the best marvel movie, sure, but lets not oversell it. its still a marvel movie. There is absolutely 0% chance that a blockbuster with a 200 million budget will ever be controversial unless that uproar can be spun in a positive direction. So I don't see how your original complaint has any merit, unless you're really adamant that an Alain Locke vs Malcolm X discourse could be inserted in a movie with extraneous explosions and kooky scientists. The fact that Coogler included a villain who was not presented as completely delusional in his beliefs is a win. Even Loki's daddy issues were ultimately dismissed. Beyond some of the CGI, I don't see Coogler doing better within that sandbox. There's nothing confusing about Killmonger's "mercurial reactions". He's an ideologue, and contradiction + hypocrisy are standard in that area. The implications of his backstory are pretty weird but that's a different issue. On February 26 2018 02:19 farvacola wrote: Logan is the best Marvel movie anyhow That moment when everyone forgets Iron Man. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
9007 Posts
On February 26 2018 01:49 IgnE wrote: i said it was the best marvel film. you know, better than all those white only marvel films. i did like the overt political themes. the other marvel movies are only political insofar as they reinforce a bland american exceptionalism that polices and safeguards the existing order. i did not like that many of the key moments in the film come off more as extremist black versions of neoimperialism rather than any truly radical liberatory vision, and that, more importantly, most of its viewers probably can't even tell the difference. I rescind the hostile tone that my posts may have taken. Thank you for clarifying your views. I get what you're saying about the neoimperialistic tones it had at moments. It came off as too Huey P Newton Black Panther Party for me, especially some of the stuff Killmonger was saying. I also didn't like the isolationist views expounded when it got tough. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9007 Posts
On February 26 2018 02:12 yamato77 wrote: I feel compelled to say that Black Panther was not made for me, and that's fine. I'm glad that people really identify with the character and love how it was represented in this film, especially in the context of Wakanda, which is undoubtedly a very cool setting. That said, the film was definitely nowhere near perfect. The script was weak overall, especially for Jordan's Killmonger, and it falls into the trap of having a large-scale fight solely for its own sake, which dilutes the strongest part of the film's conflict (the differences in approach between Killmonger and T'Challa that should have been focused more) with a bunch of side characters who don't have clear enough ideological positions to be engaging as enemies. Really, the film was strong until the third act and then became predictable and boring. There's obviously no harm in enjoying this film despite these flaws, but there's quite a bit of harm in accusing anyone who points them out as being someone who "hates films about disenfranchised people". It's probably the best Marvel movie, but that bar isn't especially high. I wish they had done more for Killmonger than they did. I was not happy with the third act, but I was viewing it as an overall and taking everything into account, the third act is why I dropped the score. Maybe 9/10 would have been a better score to give it for that flaw. Ultimately, this would work far better as a series so we could get more background and story out of the characters. I would love to see a Shuri + Tony Stark/Peter Parker dynamic explored more. And Killmonger be the villain he is in the comics. But overall, I feel that this movie is terrific in what it set out to do, even if there are some minor flaws that were the result of a 2 hour movie. They covered a lot but not enough at the same time. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 26 2018 02:19 farvacola wrote: Logan is the best Marvel movie anyhow Logan is good. I forgot about it. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 26 2018 03:06 CosmicSpiral wrote: There is absolutely 0% chance that a blockbuster with a 200 million budget will ever be controversial unless that uproar can be spun in a positive direction. So I don't see how your original complaint has any merit, unless you're really adamant that an Alain Locke vs Malcolm X discourse could be inserted in a movie with extraneous explosions and kooky scientists. The fact that Coogler included a villain who was not presented as completely delusional in his beliefs is a win. Even Loki's daddy issues were ultimately dismissed. Beyond some of the CGI, I don't see Coogler doing better within that sandbox. There's nothing confusing about Killmonger's "mercurial reactions". He's an ideologue, and contradiction + hypocrisy are standard in that area. The implications of his backstory are pretty weird but that's a different issue. That moment when everyone forgets Iron Man. how about the insufficiently explained betrayal of t'challa and okoye by w'kabi? one minute they are chillin by a rhino enclosure like old friends and the next they are enemies on a battlefield fighting to the death? the film didn't earn that betrayal at all, and instead of spending time developing it (oah, you didn't bring back my father's killer when you said you would!) the movie spends 20 minutes with choreographed fighting by a train. for comparison's sake look at the rooftop betrayal scene in the wire, between stringer and avon. that is a great scene with plenty of emotional depth. yes, im aware that tv is a totally different medium, but still. the sudden infighting made almost no sense. it comes across as a deeply flawed aesthetic choice from a directorial standpoint. yes, there are constraints for marvel movies, but, nonetheless . . . as to your point about a marvel movie being "controversial," it is arguably their most controversial movie to date, right? and they knew it would be. there are plenty of lines in that movie intended to provoke certain viewers. so when you say, "coogler did the best he could" i just don't buy it. and i don't mean to say he did a terrible job. he succeeded along a lot of the dimensions that he probably cared most about. and the fact that i'm even spending so much time thinking about this movie is a testament to the quality of the job he did. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9007 Posts
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KwarK
United States43319 Posts
That was the tragedy of his character. Ultimately he became nothing more than a mirror of the oppressive colonialism he sought to overthrow, he wasn't able to grasp that Wakandans had no need for black liberation, nor concept of their own blackness. They had no more need for a black identity than someone like myself has for a heterosexual identity, as a heterogeneous isolationist technological superpower racial struggle couldn't be more irrelevant to their cultural psyche. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14049 Posts
On February 26 2018 12:24 KwarK wrote: I enjoyed the contrast between Jordan's pan-Africanism where he feels defined by his black identity and Boseman's Wakandan nationalism, where race is incidental to their identity. That's an interesting dynamic. They present blackness as a reactionary identity that is both simultaneously forced upon African Americans (and the post-colonial world) and embraced as a counterculture. Wakandans seem to feel no more obligation to intervene to help Africans than they do to help anyone else who is not one of their own, they are defined by their own history, culture, religion, language and so forth that have remained untouched by colonial influences. That was the tragedy of his character. Ultimately he became nothing more than a mirror of the oppressive colonialism he sought to overthrow, he wasn't able to grasp that Wakandans had no need for black liberation, nor concept of their own blackness. They had no more need for a black identity than someone like myself has for a heterosexual identity, as a heterogeneous isolationist technological superpower racial struggle couldn't be more irrelevant to their cultural psyche. I agree. People who talk about the movie being controversial I don't think really got that the largest theme was the struggle between African Americans and Africans. What is right for wakanda vs what is best for wakanda. The most obvious question someone could ask about Black panther if the movie wasn't about this core question would have been "why didn't they stop slavery or help out anyone in Africa?". I think the movie answered that question very well and still allowed itself to world build very effectively uesing themes and art styles that have never been used in a movie like this before. I mean the shallowest examination of the movie is that its just another retelling of mcbeth except mcbeth is the bad guy all along. Except Its in Africa with black people who are technologicaly advanced. It was the most entertained I was from a movie this year and thats the bar I ask for my 5 dollar ticket to watch a movie. The Dark knight is still best movie. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On February 26 2018 14:43 IgnE wrote: you're going to have to explain this macbeth thing I also demand an explanation on the Dark Knight is best movie decision. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14049 Posts
On February 26 2018 14:43 IgnE wrote: you're going to have to explain this macbeth thing Killmonger is macbeth T'Chaka is the first king of scotland and T'challa is macduff. Killmonger represents the murder's of macbeth and claw represents the madness. Killmonger duels claw and then becomes king before the bloodbath he plans causes a civil war in the end which he loses and dies from. Three apparitions, three dream sequences after becoming black panthered. Tree branches in the Njobu court and from there hes able to sneak to Killmongers fortified hill. I mean I'm not a Shakespearean scholar but I could see a bunch of connections if they were intentional. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14049 Posts
On February 26 2018 16:05 Zambrah wrote: I also demand an explanation on the Dark Knight is best movie decision. A movie where the main character isn't important and is just a vehicle for the story. Action scenes that are distinct and yet are paced for the movie to work around. So many quotable lines In so many scenes. Characters come in and out of focus in the story so no one gets overexposed or stale. The Music for the joker and the costuming/facepaint. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 26 2018 16:10 Sermokala wrote: Killmonger is macbeth T'Chaka is the first king of scotland and T'challa is macduff. Killmonger represents the murder's of macbeth and claw represents the madness. Killmonger duels claw and then becomes king before the bloodbath he plans causes a civil war in the end which he loses and dies from. Three apparitions, three dream sequences after becoming black panthered. Tree branches in the Njobu court and from there hes able to sneak to Killmongers fortified hill. I mean I'm not a Shakespearean scholar but I could see a bunch of connections if they were intentional. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm so Macbeth is a Killmonger/Klaue hybrid? Ritual combat is murder while sleeping? Did Killmonger feel tormented by the ghosts of those he killed? Just seems like a stretch to me. Every regicide is not Macbeth. Except when it is I guess. | ||
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seom
South Africa491 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14049 Posts
On February 26 2018 16:41 IgnE wrote: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm so Macbeth is a Killmonger/Klaue hybrid? Ritual combat is murder while sleeping? Did Killmonger feel tormented by the ghosts of those he killed? Just seems like a stretch to me. Every regicide is not Macbeth. Except when it is I guess. Killmonger gets tormented by the ghosts of his past in his dream sequence when get gets black panthered. The flashbacks to the day his dad died and he saw the Wakanda ship in the air are his ghosts of the past and he talks about being tormented by the people he killed in Iraq afganistan and Africa. T'challa is presumably murdered and is found in a deep sleep. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17498 Posts
On February 26 2018 03:16 yamato77 wrote: Logan is better than Iron Man I think, but Iron Man is one of the ones that comes to mind when I think of good Marvel movies for sure. Best Marvel movies to date (in no particular order) would be: - Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Captain America: Civil War - Guardians of the Galaxy I & II - Thor: Ragnarok - Logan - X-Men: First Class - Ant-Man | ||
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