On May 15 2019 18:32 solidbebe wrote: Legitimate complaints are toxic negativity, right. Would you expect something else when 2 idiots run the best fantasy television show we've ever had into the ground?
If you want to read mostly positive things go hang out at r/gameofthrones
There are legitimate complaints, and I have plenty of it since season 1. Hell to start with the Dothraki were a camp as fuck clusterfuck of shitty clichés and that’s actually just as bad in the books. But ok, you don’t need to like everything to like a show.
What bothers me is that since a few years it looks like people here watch the show to complain. Every joke is cringy, every idea is shit, every scene is bs, every character is botched and ruined and so on.
If you spend three years watching a show that is utterly terrible, maybe stop watching it, and stop ruining the thread for people who either have interest in it, either would like to talk about it without the thread being a competition of who is the bestest at criticizing everything like a blasé teenager.
It’s just annoying. And if the people who made this show are idiots, again, don’t watch it. I think personally that LotR was a fucking horrible movie with zero redeeming qualities and that Peter Jackson butchered Tolkien, well, I stopped watching half way through the RotK and don’t spend my days on threads about the movies saying how awful everything in them is.
/rant
If 80% of people are complaining and 20% want to talk about theories, maybe it's the people who want to talk theories who should get out of the thread? Like I said, there are plenty of other places to go if you want to talk with people who aren't complaining about the show (r/gameofthrones). Meanwhile the rest of us will be here lamenting the downfall of a show that we too are very invested in.
On that note, I could say that 80% of those people should just stop watching the show, but that wouldn't really be a reasonable argument at all. Or maybe we could make a "Game of Thrones, but only people who want to complain all the time" thread. Of course no one would like that.
Look, critique is fine and part of enjoying any media. Expressing disappointment is totally acceptable and part of the discussion. But everything has limits. At some point the sustained negativity is going to wear on some members of this site. And if the response to that is being dismissive, then don't be shocked if people get equally dismissive of the sustained negativity.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
It is more that no one is here to validate our opinions. People can be negative, but do it for long enough and people are going to get annoyed. Also, you could have just not replied to the post complaining about negativity. EZ.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
1 post meta commenting on other people's posts is fine.
Thousands of posts complaining after every episode is too much.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
1 post meta commenting on other people's posts is fine.
Thousands of posts complaining after every episode is too much.
Its really not that hard to understand.
Or maybe people are frustrated and unhappy about how the show portrays things and are posting them here. You want to start banning people for having an opinion? What exactly does a "meta" complaint about people criticizing the show contribute to anything? You disagree with the criticism? Point out what justifies the show's take on things that are being criticized. E.g. if someone complains about Tyrion's bad dothraki not being funny, point out that you at least did find it funny. I had a little laugh about it too and didn't find that bad at all.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
1 post meta commenting on other people's posts is fine.
Thousands of posts complaining after every episode is too much.
Its really not that hard to understand.
Or maybe people are frustrated and unhappy about how the show portrays things and are posting them here. You want to start banning people for having an opinion? What exactly does a "meta" complaint about people criticizing the show contribute to anything?
Jesus christ maybe it is hard to understand!
It isn't a problem when someone makes one post commenting about how other people are posting because if you don't like it you can simply ignore it.
It is a problem when there are thousands of posts repeating the same complaints over and over and over and over and over again after each episode because all other discussion gets buried.
Like I said earlier in this page, its fine that people are frustrated and its fine that people complain. I'm not asking for a ban for anyone, I'm just saying the volume of self entitled whinging on here is a problem for anyone who wants to discuss anything that isn't about how terrible the show is.
It doesn't even bother me that much, I've even joined with the complaining a fair amount, but I can see the point that biff was making when he said how annoying it is.
On May 15 2019 23:04 Tal wrote: I'm also getting a little tired of the general internet anti-GoT bandwaggoning.
Having run out of books to work with, and seeing Martin still can't tie stuff together, the show writers have decided to simplify and focus the story. Less realistic, more dramatic.
This means not everything is spelled out, that you have to put up with narrative coincidences and conveniences, and that parts of the story move faster. But it's meant tighter, more exciting episodes, that feel like they are heading to a satisfying end. They've also managed some excellent dialogue, even without Martin. I've loved it, and think they're handling things well.
Is it perfect? No, but it's still fantastic TV.
But it isn’t fantastic TV that’s my issue entirely.
I was more pessimistic than my friends going in precisely because I already in advance understood that they’d have to cut a faster path through and dispense with some of the intrigue and machinations that I like.
It’s just condensed it’s not tighter, it’s way way looser in a way that’s just frequently jarring.
I’ve never really minded teleporting between scenes or episodes all that much, but episode 3 has both Jorah and Arya teleport, it has wights that swarm the Dothraki like a wave, fight other characters vaguely in space, and has them tiptoeing about a library in the same episode. It has a battle plan that makes almost zero sense, and a really messy sense of who is where and how they’re all placed relative to each other.
Hardhome is much, much better done, I was saying it from memory but I’ve recently rewatched it. Some people are less critical than me but I still think it ridiculous that the NK died in the manner he did, I’d contrast him just dandering up to Bran and delivering the only means to defeat him rather unfavourably with Blackwater. In that case Stannis was actually extremely competent militarily, it shows his chops as a leader of men, but he ultimately is defeated because Tyrion has an ingenious plan of his own that is foreshadowed and also makes sense.
Dany losing a dragon and having the fleet wrecked to those balistae, only to single-handedly come back and wipe all of them out without developing any counter-measures whatsoever is just, really stupid to watch.
Nothing tight does stuff like that. Neo doesn’t get his ass kicked by Agent Smith and just return the next day and destroys him, Luke Skywalker doesn’t get his ass handed to him by Vader and just come back the next day and return the favour.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
It is more that no one is here to validate our opinions. People can be negative, but do it for long enough and people are going to get annoyed. Also, you could have just not replied to the post complaining about negativity. EZ.
And you could have avoided complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the show. Jeez.
On May 15 2019 23:34 Plansix wrote: Negative posters will now be banned, including people being negative about the negativity. Only positive posting going forward.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
1 post meta commenting on other people's posts is fine.
Thousands of posts complaining after every episode is too much.
Its really not that hard to understand.
Or maybe people are frustrated and unhappy about how the show portrays things and are posting them here. You want to start banning people for having an opinion? What exactly does a "meta" complaint about people criticizing the show contribute to anything?
Jesus christ maybe it is hard to understand!
It isn't a problem when someone makes one post commenting about how other people are posting because if you don't like it you can simply ignore it.
It is a problem when there are thousands of posts repeating the same complaints over and over and over and over and over again after each episode because all other discussion gets buried.
Like I said earlier in this page, its fine that people are frustrated and its fine that people complain. I'm not asking for a ban for anyone, I'm just saying the volume of self entitled whinging on here is a problem for anyone who wants to discuss anything that isn't about how terrible the show is.
It doesn't even bother me that much, I've even joined with the complaining a fair amount, but I can see the point that biff was making when he said how annoying it is.
Ok so what is the solution? People shouldn't express their genuine opinions and reply to things they disagree with because there are people who find it annoying that their opinion doesn't seem to be the majority one? There are tons of posts to choose from, if one disagrees with a certain negative opinion, why not go ahead and engage the criticism with your own reasoning. If it is good, maybe people will actually move more towards your position, that's entirely dependant on the arguments presented. If one still thinks that GoT is incredible tv, so be it. But having that opinion alone won't convince anyone else that it's actually the case. One can reason out writing to some degree, now i know certain people here will disagree and pretend it's literally only subjective opinion, but that's nonsense. One can talk about all the things GoT still does well, for example emilia clarke's acting has never been better than this last episode, she did an excellent job portraying an unstable, sad dany. The cinematography of the episode was also one of the best we have ever had on the show. If you want the dialogue to go more towards positive things, then bring them up, best case scenario with examples, youtube videos, shots, whatever.
I recall listening to some YouTube guy and he had a real bee in his bonnet that DnD had a real hardon for forcing characters into situations so they could get their actors to do emotive face stuff, even at the sacrifice of other elements I felt he was kind of nitpicking at the time but I feel he’s kind of on the money increasingly. I’ll try remember the channel if I can.
I like most things about it visually, and I like a lot of the small stuff, little interactions between characters are all consistently fine.
I don’t care who necessarily does what or who ends up on the Throne either as long as the journey there is interesting and consistent, so for example Jon not killing the NK, doesn’t bother me at all either.
I hate prophecies in fiction in almost all instances so I don’t really mind that some are up in the air now or whatever.
If I was to break down each scene there’s definitely more I like than dislike, but I felt they botched the two big events of the season so badly that that way outweighs all of that, for me at least.
I don’t think it would even be in character for the ruthless/relatively neutral pragmatists like Tywin, Roose or Stannis to burn Kings Lansing to the ground, never mind Dany based on the setup we’ve actually got so far.
The Bran theory is very creative and would be an interesting twist.
Unfortunately the odds are exceptionally high that there is no plot twist coming to justify things that make no sense. When the writers themselves explain Rhaegal getting ambushed and shot out of the air on a clear day with "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet', it's clear what's really going on; they're just bad writers.
Let's look at some of the popular fan theories that were going to explain apparent plot holes:
Talisa is a secret Lannister honeypot and it will all pay off.
Doran Martell has a master plan.
The Sandsnakes are going to play a huge role going forward supporting Dany.
The Arya who stupidly smirked around Braavos waiting to get stabbed was just a decoy.
That wasn't the real Littlefinger who died, it was a faceless man who took his place.
Jaime is going to King's Landing to kill Cersei.
Tyrion is really a Targaryen.
Bran is really the Night King/working with the Night King.
Bran is warging Dany.
I can't think of a single instance where an apparent plot hole that viewers have pointed out was anything deeper beyond seemingly dumb decisions made on screen. Are there any apparent plot holes ended up being really clever in retrospect?
Dany going mad was heavily telegraphed by the whole Varys story line. I predicted that this is where the show was heading with her, and it's a story line that could work if well written. After the Long Night literally lasted just one night, it was obvious that Dany going insane was what they wanted us to be concerned about.
It's just the execution of it all and the reasons Varys went from supporting Dany to convinced she was mad were really poorly written. She had no symptoms of insanity prior to burning King's Landing to the ground. Being ruthless and cruel to enemies is hardly the same thing as being insane. Or are we are going to consider Tywin insane too? Varys and Tyrion made it seem like using the dragons to attack King's Landing would unavoidably kill innocents, but then they had Dany disable all of the city's defenses with no civilian casualties shown at all... They forced the insanity plot line in after telegraphing it, but it doesn't mean the telegraphing made any sense.
As for why I am watching a show that is poorly written, the overall ending is going to be the same as the books, even if the journey to get there is completely different. I would rather be spoiled watching it first hand so I can judge it myself than reading or hearing about it second hand. With major plot lines that have been building for 7 seasons, I am more motivated to discuss what we are seeing in detail. Within two weeks of seeing the finale I will move on until we get a new book.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
It is more that no one is here to validate our opinions. People can be negative, but do it for long enough and people are going to get annoyed. Also, you could have just not replied to the post complaining about negativity. EZ.
And you could have avoided complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the show. Jeez.
On May 15 2019 23:34 Plansix wrote: Negative posters will now be banned, including people being negative about the negativity. Only positive posting going forward.
Can I say this season is positively terrible?
I believe that might be in the spirit of the rule, so it should be allowed. We have to make extra effort to be positive to avoid becoming a safe space for negativity.
Folks are talking this all to seriously. If a couple people say that the thread has gotten really negative, the response shouldn’t be “Debate me and maybe it will get better if I find your arguments compelling.” No one is saying the complaints are not valid or anything. Just take it down a notch.
Anyone who says they liked Jaime this episode fucking watch this clip and then tell me how it's justifiable for him to so casually say "i never cared for them, innocent or otherwise" The single most important scene That's not a nothing scene, that's the single most important scene for Jaime's character and allows him to start his path of redemption. This series is not about giving into hate, it's about peace and forgiveness. GRRM was a fucking hippie and this series is his best chance at telling us about his ideals and beliefs.
D&D literally fucked an 8 season arc all in the course of a single episode. Fucking literal bullshit.
On May 15 2019 23:05 FreakyDroid wrote: So its not ok to bitch about the show but its ok to bitch about other people that bitch about the show. You cant choose what other people write in their posts, but you can choose which posts to read and which to reply to. EZ
It is more that no one is here to validate our opinions. People can be negative, but do it for long enough and people are going to get annoyed. Also, you could have just not replied to the post complaining about negativity. EZ.
And you could have avoided complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the guy who's complaining about the show. Jeez.
On May 15 2019 23:34 Plansix wrote: Negative posters will now be banned, including people being negative about the negativity. Only positive posting going forward.
Can I say this season is positively terrible?
I believe that might be in the spirit of the rule, so it should be allowed. We have to make extra effort to be positive to avoid becoming a safe space for negativity.
Folks are talking this all to seriously. If a couple people say that the thread has gotten really negative, the response shouldn’t be “Debate me and maybe it will get better if I find your arguments compelling.” No one is saying the complaints are not valid or anything. Just take it down a notch.
No, people should present their own ideas and back them up, be the change you want to see. If there is so much to still appreciate, then make other people see it as well. This is a thread about the show, it's not a safe space for negative opinions or positive ones. It's a place to talk about the story, that's it.
I don't get some of the gripes with Vary's situation. While you can point out his becoming convinced of her madness being sudden, once he reaches that conclusion his course of action seems accurate. A master schemer with no power and no time to scheme, I don't see how it could end any other way. He had mere days, and few spies at all at his disposal. No matter how smart he was, it would have to be sloppy and rushed, because that was his only option.
And although it's not going to happen this way, I don't see why madness is the only option on the table for Dany. It seems like every single time she goes against her impulses and follows her advisers recommendations, it works out terrible for her. Why couldn't they show her being broken and remorseful for her actions in Kings Landing while she explains her view of this being the only way to stop the bloodshed moving forward. How many innocents died before she arrived due to the war of the 5 kings? How did it work out when she showed mercy in Mereen and left her enemies with some power to wield against her?
With every move she's made in Westeros to help limit casualties and avoid more bloodshed, it has had the opposite effect. Every positive thing she's done has been overlooked by the people she wants to rule, and rewarded with betrayal and contempt. Taking that all in in one moment, and deciding that fire and fear are her best options to cement her rule for a greater peace moving forward doesn't seem like an overshot.
Why couldn't they show her being broken and remorseful for her actions in Kings Landing while she explains her view of this being the only way to stop the bloodshed moving forward. How many innocents died before she arrived due to the war of the 5 kings? How did it work out when she showed mercy in Mereen and left her enemies with some power to wield against her?
Isn't this what we potentially have to look forward to next episode? We haven't seen anything post burning yet.
It's a workable line I think, but burning the entire city strains that motivation a bit compared to something less horrific, but equally as cruel (like burning the Red Keep + the gathered masses).
If she wanted to stop further bloodshed she at least could have limited the blanket carpet bombing to the red keep only. But she makes a point to first burn half of kings landing with no regards for her own troops and then at some point finally goes to nuke the red keep.
On May 16 2019 00:37 dp wrote: I don't get some of the gripes with Vary's situation. While you can point out his becoming convinced of her madness being sudden, once he reaches that conclusion his course of action seems accurate. A master schemer with no power and no time to scheme, I don't see how it could end any other way. He had mere days, and few spies at all at his disposal. No matter how smart he was, it would have to be sloppy and rushed, because that was his only option.
And although it's not going to happen this way, I don't see why madness is the only option on the table for Dany. It seems like every single time she goes against her impulses and follows her advisers recommendations, it works out terrible for her. Why couldn't they show her being broken and remorseful for her actions in Kings Landing while she explains her view of this being the only way to stop the bloodshed moving forward. How many innocents died before she arrived due to the war of the 5 kings? How did it work out when she showed mercy in Mereen and left her enemies with some power to wield against her?
With every move she's made in Westeros to help limit casualties and avoid more bloodshed, it has had the opposite effect. Every positive thing she's done has been overlooked by the people she wants to rule, and rewarded with betrayal and contempt. Taking that all in in one moment, and deciding that fire and fear are her best options to cement her rule for a greater peace moving forward doesn't seem like an overshot.
All of which I think are fine and explicable, they just aren’t presented well at all.
I can buy Varys rushing and being sloppy, but what’s triggering him to act so hastily? He’s stuck around and tolerated atrocities for bloody ages, I can buy him deciding that his scheming has failed to actualise his goals and he needs to go further, faster in this instance.
I just don’t really buy that outside of a hunch he has enough to go off that Dany is going to do something massively heinous, or that Jon moderating her isn’t possible or whatever.
If, like some of my favourite shows a network is cancelling and you have to panically wrap up everything you’ve set up I’ll cut writers quite some slack, as far as I understand it DnD themselves imposed the very episode limit that put them in this corner because they said they could wrap it up in the run we have.
Part of the problem is in the language and the "vehemence" with which overly negative comments are posted. If the thread becomes a wall of posts where "the writing is fucking bad", "they made everything senseless", "they ruined 8 seasons of character development", "this and that is fucking idiotic", "this is dumb and this is dumber", "this is objectively fucking bad writing", I don't feel very engaged in talking about what I liked about the episode.. I feel like you are telling me I'm an idiot because I like a TV show..
If I like something I don't usually write: "this character arc was objectively fucking good, if you don't like it you are an idiot" (I know I know, nobody called anyone an idiot, but it's somehow what comes out of many negative posts..)
No problem in critiquing the show, I've much to say about what I did not like, but at some point it becomes really heavy to read pages of verbal insults and trash talking. I get it, for you (generic person that dislike GoT) these seasons are trash, and they ruined what was for you a good series. Do you really need to vent on a public forum every week?
I think it's reasonable to say that if this thread becomes a "Letting Off Steam Thread [GoT edition]", it's not the best for people that still enjoy it or in any case would like to talk about it without burning rage or heavy tones..
edit: let me add there are many posts which present negative critiques on the episode that I actually enjoy reading, because they are not written from a condescending stand point, and they don't assume that if you don't see it the same you are an idiot all the same, there are many more posts which seem to be written simply because bashing on the show is kind of the trend of the moment I feel that if some people would watch season 1-2 with the same attitude of "let's find what's horribly wrong with this now", they would come up with the same amount of shit to pour over it
I mean i can definitely see that the overal tone could be less emotional and more neutral/rational in its delivery. There is a certain circlejerk where people are more inclined to just follow the general aggressive flow because it's the accepted one. That starts with criticism of the show, and ends with people attacking D&D and implying that they are talentless hacks. I'd agree that it's something people should probably change (myself as well ofc).
With that being said,
I feel that if some people would watch season 1-2 with the same attitude of "let's find what's horribly wrong with this now", they would come up with the same amount of shit to pour over it
EPT
