I wanted to start a thread about the upcoming documentary show on HBO, produced by Bill Maher and VICE Magazine, based on their popular website and free magazine. I was wondering if anyone else had interest in VICE, their style of journalism, and its value.
... the show will be hosted by VICE founder Shane Smith, along with a selection of our top correspondents who you will already be very familiar with if you're a regular visitor to this site. The rest of the crew will be rounded out by fellow HBO iconoclast Bill Maher, who will serve as the show's executive producer, and real-deal newsman's man Fareed Zakaria will serve as a consultant.
Why do I care? Because VICE is gonzo-journalism at its finest, and the often blur the line of what journalists or documentarians can and can't do.
In fact they made big waves today by infiltrating the upper echelons of North Korean's regime and meeting Kim Jong-Un.
Earlier today former Chicago Bulls superstar Dennis Rodman presided over a mixed-match basketball game in Pyongyang, North Korea, alongside Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un. The teams consisted of VICE correspondent Ryan Duffy, Moose Weekes, Buckets Blakes, and Bull Bullard of the Harlem Globetrotters, and North Korea's "Dream Team," all of whom played their hearts out in what we have termed a "basketball diplomacy" mission. Following the game, Rodman gave a stirring speech that extended an olive branch to the Hermit Kingdom. The VICE crew is currently having a reception at the Supreme Leader's house, and Duffy has invited Kim Jung-Un to America for a tour of the VICE offices. There isn't much more to say than that because our jaws are still on the floor.
Now, a related thread about this got closed today, because it was dismissed as a crazy basketball celebrity doing something crazy. But what the VICE and HBO crew have managed to do is gain an unprecedented level of access to one of the most reclusive and dangerous men in the world. By orchestrating a celebrity basketball game with Dennis Rodman, they stirred up a lot of discussion in news circles about the role and responsibility of journalists in the process.
It's like Morgan Spurlock actually finding Osama Bin Laden, and getting footage of them splitting a pitcher of beer.
American journalists and tourists are NOT allowed in Korea, other than to see the Arirang Mass Games. There are put on strict tour of monuments to their Dear Leader, accompanied by armed guards and other 'tourists' that are actually secret police. If you are caught with any modern technology other than a point and shoot camera — a cellphone, a laptop, video camera, even new CDs or magazines — you can be imprisoned in a country notorious for political prisoners, slave labor camps, torture and rumors of cannibalism driven by famine.
Over the past few years, Shane Smith and Vice have been one of the few sources of documentation inside North Korean of North Korean culture and life.
In short, if Kim Jung-Un is as merciless and tyrannical and his father, and he discovered that this celebrity basketball games was excuse to document and satirize parts of North Korean life and governance that haven't been seen for decades, the Vice crew would be in deep, deep shit.
What's really interesting about the VICE is their level of irreverance makes them willing to put themselves and their journalist at risk -- but not just physically. They seem to have very little obligation to 'journalistic integrity' other than trying anything and being honest with themselves. It also begs the question of whether or not journalists have moral obligations.
On the one hand, they're getting drunk, up close and personal with the dictator of most secretive and xenophobic country on the planet. It's an opportunity that heads of state and diplomats have trouble getting.
On the other hand, they're partying with a dictator that is presiding over a country ravaged by famine and dotted with concentration camps. Gawker's take on VICE's antics is less than impressed.
Anyway, thoughts? I've always admired VICE's work. They cover international news and stories that other organizations simply don't have the balls to touch.
to comment on the Noth Korea part... today i read in a german newspaper (link) that AP journalists are now able to keep their smartphones and make photos. and even post them on instagram.
it's a small step but better than nothing ...
The new guy in korea at least went to school in switzerland. Maybe he still has some soul.
On March 01 2013 12:54 Gaga wrote: to comment on the Noth Korea part... today i read in a german newspaper (link) that AP journalists are now able to keep their smartphones and make photos. and even post them on instagram.
it's a small step but better than nothing ...
The new guy in korea at least went to school in switzerland. Maybe he still has some soul.
I think it's wishful thinking to think that Kim Jong Un is going to run his country any differently from his father. He might be more open to Western culture, but they just did an underground nuke test a couple of weeks ago and still rule their citizens with an iron fist. They perceive Western democracy and values as a threat to their existence ... unless you are arguably the greatest defensive player on the greatest basketball team of all time. Then you're cool.
On March 01 2013 19:35 Kukaracha wrote: Vice is fun, but terrible "journalism". Their sensationalist work often deforms reality by a great deal to make it more "marketable".
What they do is definitely not documentary though, as there is little preparation before and little information gained from their reports.
You're right ... it's not 'journalism' because part of the appeal and drama of the story is the fish-out-of-water VICE reporter facing unknown or dangerous situations. It's more akin to a travel or adventure-log — like being the Anthony Bourdain of war, drugs, crime and sex.
At the same time, I feel what VICE's approach to news reveals how fake and manufactured most news drama and documentaries are. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something more honest about a VICE reporter riding a drunk train out to Siberia, than watching Morgan Spurlock or Michael Moore shove microphones in people's faces and try to create on-camera "Gotcha!" moments.
VICE reporters don't hide their lack of knowledge, sophistication or their biases on-camera, which to me is more honest than faux ideologues/"experts" pushing their agendas with second-hand information.
I think the show has a lot potential, because of their cavalier-approach. I remember reading about how Anderson Cooper started out — by literally making fake press credentials and just flying to warzones. He basically built credibility by doing things other news agencies weren't willing to even try to do.
I really dislike a lot of VICE's "drug culture" reporting, as it really supports some rather narrow minded conceptions of those who are interested in such things. Sometimes I feel like I can practically smell the patchouli through my computer screen . That being said, I really like the VICE guide series, particularly their bit on Karachi, and HBO is my TV go-to, so I'll definitely tune in and see what the deal is.
On March 02 2013 03:05 sLiMpoweR wrote: who won the basketball game
And I wonder by how much
"Thursday’s game ended in a 110-110 draw, with two Americans playing on each team alongside North Koreans, Detrick said. The Xinhua News Agency first reported on the game, citing witnesses who attended."
Not sure why the OP is constructed the way it is. The show on HBO is not going to just be about N. Korea. It's a lot more wide-ranging than that. Trust me. I know
Documentaries are not to be confused with journalism as i see many people here tend to do. Documentaries do not reflect reality, they are an argument of whoever is making the documentary and as such will be skewed and editted to get said point across. Nowhere does documentaries claim to show or reveal the truth, and if they do they do so falsely.
It is so due to the medium of film and the choices involved in making any form of film. Be they editorial, people chosen to appear but also from the company it keeps - fictional film. I can elaborate on a lot of this but it all boils down to the fact that to show "reality" you have to show completely uneditted footage, and even then the mere presence of the camera changes how things turn out and happen. It's quite complicated but one can say that nobody can really define the documentary as a genre, not for a lack of trying though as many film theorists have attempted to do so and gotten nowhere. It is however not close to journalism or any form of "reality"
I like the videos they make, as off putting as some of them are. It is definitely sensational, and you shouldn't take everything in them at face value but they are entertaining as hell. Hopefully now when I reference the site and its videos at the office people won't give me the 0___o look.
o.O what the heck, basketball diplomacy haha. I love VICE documentaries, so entertaining, informative, and WTF at the same time. I mean obviously everything has its own bent, but yea, VICE is pretty great.
On March 02 2013 15:42 SamsungStar wrote: Not sure why the OP is constructed the way it is. The show on HBO is not going to just be about N. Korea. It's a lot more wide-ranging than that. Trust me. I know
It's only because I personally had no idea they even got a deal with HBO until they made headlines with this Dennis Rodman stunt.
Shane Smith has been talking up the whole Dennis Rodman visit in the press as a 'diplomatic' and apolitical gesture, but when you watch his min-documentaries about North Korea he very clearly has strong political views about North Korea (and what a 1950's socialist batshit-insane dump it is).
I have no idea whether Shane Smith actually believes what he's saying, or if VICE has a secondary agenda that will be revealed when the episode airs. Shane Smith might just be blowing smoke up everyone's asses to protect the safety of Rodman and his crew.
And I have no idea if Rodman is just playing along, desperate for money, clueless, or all of the above. Telling Kim Jong-Un 'he has a friend for life' is simultaneously the most fucking absurd but least surprising thing Dennis Rodman has ever said. This is the man that allegedly whispered sexual innuendo into Karl Malone's ear while he was guarding him during the NBA Finals, just to throw him off his game. (GREATEST. DEFENSE. EVER.)
I guess this story hits all my pet topics -- North Korea, Hall of Fame NBA players and general New York hipster douche-baggery.
"There is nobody at the CIA who can tell you more personally about Kim Jong Un than Dennis Rodman," remarked ABC News military analyst Col. Steve Ganyard, "and that in itself is scary."
After Rodman tells host George Stephanopoulos that he considers Kim Jong Un a "friend," a "great guy" and "very humble", George Stephanopoulos points out he's a sworn enemy of the United States and has banished at least 200,000 people in prison, Rodman makes a poorly thought out, barely coherent argument that I kind of understand — that, he thinks he's a great guy on a person-to-person level, not on a political level. And it's not like the United States hasn't done it's share of horrible things (although a 1990's reference to Monica Lewinsky's BJ is not one of them).
In a weird way, only Dennis Rodman could be an ambassador to North Korea. He's the only person crazy enough to hang out there for two days and actually enjoy it without getting himself killed.
anyone else notice that almost everyone is wearing all black in the picutures. Also, the picture with dennis, you can see the intense looks on the three security guards - and rodman's guard/whatever does not look happy at all...
VICE is definitely unlike any other source of news and journalism out there. Sure, their actions and methods of solicitation can be called controversial, but the raw material they present is basically a gold mine of information.
They seem to have no agenda, no political motives, not even a general idea of what issues they focus on. They simply go out and explore the most interesting and controversial topics around the globe, then present it in a style of personal experience. Not just some snappy news casted overview with no depth or realism. It's genius in my opinion.
The gawker article is pretty fucking dumb.You could take pictures of starving african kids and post them inbetween twitter posts of any American celebrity as well. It isn't vices fault the country is full of starving kids.
On March 06 2013 02:54 Bosu wrote: The gawker article is pretty fucking dumb.You could take pictures of starving african kids and post them inbetween twitter posts of any American celebrity as well. It isn't vices fault the country is full of starving kids.
At the end of the day, Gawker is just hella pissed that Vice is booming, getting HBO deals, and performing international diplomacy with the man who fought alongside Hulk Hogan in TWO, read that TWO, Bash at the Beach events.
On March 06 2013 02:42 SamsungStar wrote: ^ This 100%. It's the simple fact that they don't have an agenda that makes them so valuable. They're not journalism, IMO. They're a primary source.
They do have an agenda, and it's money!
Very often they'll take a non-event and build drama around it, or twist the turn of events. I also suspect them to simply lie every now and then.
For example, that report on Karachi... at some point, they're with a bounty killer, right? It's a dude with a motorcycle helmet and a gun, in the dark. Well, if you're completely orientated towards "business&fun" like Vice, I don't see why they would bother looking for an actual killer. They're not a news source, so it isn't like they have anything to lose with moves like that. They also love telling to the camera how dangerous things are, wether they are in fact stuck in a basement in Johanesburg or just walking around in Haïti.
Don't give Vice too much credit. Sure, it's interesting, but they're here to make money. And unlike reputed newspapers, what they sell is not information - what they sell is entertainment. The trust you put in news agencies comes from the fact that correctness and objectivity is at the heart of their trade, while Vice cares little about those two values and will sell regardless of their absence or presence.
On March 06 2013 02:54 Bosu wrote: The gawker article is pretty fucking dumb.You could take pictures of starving african kids and post them inbetween twitter posts of any American celebrity as well. It isn't vices fault the country is full of starving kids.
It's sour grapes, and a little pre-emptive. We have no idea yet what story Vice is going to tell, and what they're going to do with their footage.
On March 06 2013 02:42 SamsungStar wrote: ^ This 100%. It's the simple fact that they don't have an agenda that makes them so valuable. They're not journalism, IMO. They're a primary source.
They do have an agenda, and it's money!
Very often they'll take a non-event and build drama around it, or twist the turn of events. I also suspect them to simply lie every now and then.
For example, that report on Karachi... at some point, they're with a bounty killer, right? It's a dude with a motorcycle helmet and a gun, in the dark. Well, if you're completely orientated towards "business&fun" like Vice, I don't see why they would bother looking for an actual killer. They're not a news source, so it isn't like they have anything to lose with moves like that. They also love telling to the camera how dangerous things are, wether they are in fact stuck in a basement in Johanesburg or just walking around in Haïti.
Don't give Vice too much credit. Sure, it's interesting, but they're here to make money. And unlike reputed newspapers, what they sell is not information - what they sell is entertainment. The trust you put in news agencies comes from the fact that correctness and objectivity is at the heart of their trade, while Vice cares little about those two values and will sell regardless of their absence or presence.
Yeah, I wouldn't describe VICE as apolitical, either. They're hipster capitalists, and I always saw their irreverance and apathy as a political position.
Still enjoy their willingness to 'create' news. A lot of news agencies manufacture 'news' by reprinting press releases or aggregrating and regurgitating other people's work.
I have a lot more respect for what VICE does than say the Huffington Post.
Yeah I have a hard time lending credence to your post Kuka when you say reputed newspapers sell information. Maybe in the past, but in today's day and age everyone's out for profit and has an agenda. Just naive to say otherwise. I'd say VICE is a lot more pure than some of those "reputed" media outlets.
They sell for profit, and their product is information. And if their product is bad, their sales will be bad. Random newspapers sell stories, reputed newspapers sell information. Vice on the other hand doesn't even try, because their business area is entertainment.
I do agree, however, that Vice is interesting nonetheless, and that many newspapers are pure crap.
The video is from 2007, last i checked this was the edited version, the original had little kids sucking girls tits to win t-shirts, women kissing dogs, and some other sick shit.
I was hooked on the VICE youtube channel for awhile. They cover some amazing stories without the artifice of a composed journalist deliver, as others said. Highly recommend.
So after watching the first two episodes, I think this show is pretty good. It is precisely as exploitative and "shocking" as one would expect, but it provides a lot of interesting information and images of parts of the world that are otherwise difficult to come upon. One thing I think they need to work on is host presentation and reporter savvy. The head guy needs to work on his introductions and speaking style; he is entirely too unaffected, and it comes off almost as disinterested, as though he truly is this rich ass white guy who doesn't really care about anything more than bringing shocking footage to light. Also, the reporter that went along for the North Korea segment looked like a scared child the entire time; I realize what he was doing was scary as hell, but come on......he even seemed scared of the battered NK women as he asked them questions.
All in all, good stuff with room for improvement in presentation.
Latest episode was mind boggling how the hell is China able to cover up those real estate losses? Are the Politicians just erase it from the balance sheets?!
On April 16 2013 03:34 farvacola wrote: So after watching the first two episodes, I think this show is pretty good. It is precisely as exploitative and "shocking" as one would expect, but it provides a lot of interesting information and images of parts of the world that are otherwise difficult to come upon. One thing I think they need to work on is host presentation and reporter savvy. The head guy needs to work on his introductions and speaking style; he is entirely too unaffected, and it comes off almost as disinterested, as though he truly is this rich ass white guy who doesn't really care about anything more than bringing shocking footage to light. Also, the reporter that went along for the North Korea segment looked like a scared child the entire time; I realize what he was doing was scary as hell, but come on......he even seemed scared of the battered NK women as he asked them questions.
All in all, good stuff with room for improvement in presentation.
I've been following the show, but haven't been posting even though I made the OP.
But yeah — as sensationalistic as the show is, it's still a fun watch.
It's not so much a news show as it is a travelogue exploring the darker parts of the world, which is fine by me. I really wish they won't frame it as 'hard-hitting news' though, it's not necessary (and not that current).
They're rarely covering the whole deal but they often manage to deliver very interesting images. They are more about some people testimony and face to face interactions than they are about trying to show the whole picture that would explain the whole situation.
Never watch their old stuff will try though. Except the darra gun bazar in pakistan mountains which is omfg insane.
Currently watching the HBO stuff and its pretty cool. They really show stuff and sides to the story you knew of. Honestly it is really good and I would suggest it to almost everyone.
The North Korea episode was amazing and yet painfully awkward to watch. Just the way you see everything being done to impress tourists (like that market where the only customers were the VICE crew) makes me cringe.
The last part with the Harlem Globetrotters doing tricks for kids was real heartwarming though.
I watch almost everything VICE does, cus what they find interesting will probably interest me as well and this HBO season was very good! Recommended to everyone
On May 12 2013 11:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Latest episode was mind boggling how the hell is China able to cover up those real estate losses? Are the Politicians just erase it from the balance sheets?!
Yes, the last real estate crash happened in the 90s, the Chinese created four asset management companies whose sole job was to buy up bad debts and then resolve them by 2000. All four are still alive and well, still trying to chew through them. This is what happens when your banking system is dominated by 4 state owned banks that take direction from the party.
On June 18 2013 23:20 Grettin wrote: Overall the season was very good. Season finale was impressive after you saw all the news about the trip. Had no idea VICE was part of it.
On May 12 2013 11:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Latest episode was mind boggling how the hell is China able to cover up those real estate losses? Are the Politicians just erase it from the balance sheets?!
Yes, the last real estate crash happened in the 90s, the Chinese created four asset management companies whose sole job was to buy up bad debts and then resolve them by 2000. All four are still alive and well, still trying to chew through them. This is what happens when your banking system is dominated by 4 state owned banks that take direction from the party.
I don't get HBO, but I have seen quite a few Vice videos.
I highly recommend the Liberia one, but be warned, it is NOT for the faint of heart. Pretty disturbing stuff, and I should know, I've been on 4chan since 2009.
On March 31 2014 12:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Anyone catch the new season so far, wish the program was an hour long instead of half an hour. Next week is Syria. can't wait.
I've started to watch the current season. As good as always. The episode on slave labor in Pakistan (ep 2) was pretty heartwrenching especially when they said the two girls were captured after filming and their situation unknown
EPT![[image loading]](http://assets.vice.com/content-images/article/north-korea-has-a-friend-in-dennis-rodman/1e8bc4f56e9fd979f7f856163a8e1499.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://assets.vice.com/content-images/article/north-korea-has-a-friend-in-dennis-rodman/2bca4ddb5c879f29c7ba9487b0467c7d.jpg)
