EPTIt's either that, or adding an extra 30-40minutes of the movie in the style of prequels where people are doing nothing but walking around, talking and explaining everything what's going on. In such case, I'd rather take the "bigger better deathstar" than useless scenes which disrupt the flow of the story.
Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 125
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
It's either that, or adding an extra 30-40minutes of the movie in the style of prequels where people are doing nothing but walking around, talking and explaining everything what's going on. In such case, I'd rather take the "bigger better deathstar" than useless scenes which disrupt the flow of the story. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 07:51 Plansix wrote: because its all so stupid if you think about any of the movies for to long. Still missing the point. Stupid != internally inconsistent/unjustified. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:00 kwizach wrote: Still missing the point. Stupid != internally inconsistent/unjustified. The point doesn't matter. The movies are big dump pulpy romps with sci-fi trapping. They have space wizards that fight was laser swords and space Nazis that are taken down by a scrappy group of pilots, a space princess and a smuggler with a heart of gold. The main villain is named Dark Father in German because thatch show smart the film's are. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
There are multiple layers to a movie/story and consistency is surely important. No story is ever 100% perfect though, so it really depends if it's a big deal in the end. With that being said i still don't quite get the problem kwizach has. Can you elaborate? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:06 Plansix wrote: The point doesn't matter. The movies are big dump pulpy romps with sci-fi trapping. They have space wizards that fight was laser swords and space Nazis that are taken down by a scrappy group of pilots, a space princess and a smuggler with a heart of gold. The main villain is named Dark Father in German because thatch show smart the film's are. I addressed what you just said in my previous post. The_Red_Viper got it: good stories are internally consistent. On December 22 2015 08:11 Plansix wrote: Its hard to not take the easy way out when the person arguing with you is holding the movable goal posts. Nobody is moving the goal posts. You keep coming up with plot elements that you describe as stupid or implausible, when that's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about internal coherence, justification, and consistency. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
The important thing to realize is that it doesn't really matter why or how the scenarios in Star Wars come about. They just do, and we should accept that and follow the adventures of the characters within it. That's the only way to watch it that isn't just terrible. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: Nah you take the easy way out here. Ofc the story should be consistent internally. There are multiple layers to a movie/story and consistency is surely important. No story is ever 100% perfect though, so it really depends if it's a big deal in the end. With that being said i still don't quite get the problem kwizach has. Can you elaborate? My initial point was about the fact that ANH explains and justifies the level of forces deployed by the Empire and the Alliance way better than TFA does for the Republic, the First Order and the Resistance. Since other posters and Plansix then brought up the argument that because it's Sci-Fi fantasy we should not bother looking for scientific validity (which is a different topic than the one I initially responded on), I then replied by explaining the importance of internal consistency. On December 22 2015 08:21 LegalLord wrote: Sure, internal consistency is important, but the story gets to play by its own rules. Star Wars as it was conceived in the OT doesn't really worry about everything being Star Trek fan approved, because that really detracts from the main purpose of what the story is supposed to be. Were the story more focused on the politics, science, and the military strategy, these criticisms would be more meaningful (Dune, for example, suffers from failures in internal consistency within its own narrative). A lot of the books (e.g. Zahn) focus a lot more on these issues, and that is not to their detriment but it is a severe stylistic departure from the structure of the movies. The important thing to realize is that it doesn't really matter why or how the scenarios in Star Wars come about. They just do, and we should accept that and follow the adventures of the characters within it. That's the only way to watch it that isn't just terrible. Nobody is talking about anything being "Star Trek fan approved". I've never watched Star Trek, I'm a Star Wars fan, and I am discussing Star Wars parameters. For example, in Star Wars, a scene like the one on Takodana where the heroes see with their naked eyes the planets of the Hosnian Prime system getting destroyed should not exist. With regards to Star Wars and politics, the opening text of ANH starts with "It is a period of civil war", and then proceeds to explain who is opposing whom and what the political stakes are. The film then provides further details on the Alliance and the Empire, and goes way beyond what's found in TFA with regards to the political context in the galaxy, the motivations of the parties and their capabilities. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The planets being visible while destroyed is only a real problem if you actually know that they aren't in the same system though. I will just take your word for it (that they are not) and yes that's kinda meh, but i don't think it is a big deal regardless. BY FAR the most important issue in this movie was to make people care for the new characters, i think the movie nailed that part easily. Everything else was just hinted at (who is snoke, why is there a FO to begin with, etc). The next movies surely will explain a little bit more and everything else is left for imagination (and books/comics/whatever) and i think that is fine. That's my POV atm | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:30 Plansix wrote: Why not? Do you not read my posts or something? On December 22 2015 08:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: The planets being visible while destroyed is only a real problem if you actually know that they aren't in the same system though. I will just take your word for it (that they are not) and yes that's kinda meh, but i don't think it is a big deal regardless. Yes, we know they aren't in the same system. On December 22 2015 08:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Hm i don't think it's a huge problem to not explain the background story in the first movie of the new trilogy. There was some stuff here and there which explained some of it and i think that was okay. I disagree. I think it's important to know more about the political context (at the very minimum to better understand the importance of the first shot of the Starkiller weapon beyond "starting the end of the Republic", and to better situate both the FO and the Resistance), about the motivations of the parties (why did the FO choose to fire its weapon for the first time then?), and about their capabilities. Also, as viewers, the fundamental context of the OT was the struggle of the Alliance against the Empire, and now that we are several decades later we deserve to know more about what happened afterwards without having to buy new-extended universe products. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I did. I was not swayed by the arguments. None of those specific problems effected my enjoyment of the film. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
the villains are terrible in my opinion, the look like they came straight out of a harry potter movie ... + Show Spoiler + I mean readhead 25-30 year old commander of a whole planetary destroyer is just WTF..., (and obviously Harrypotter and WTF why??) ![[image loading]](http://gingerparrot.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Rupert-Grint-Harry-Potter.jpg) Mrs. Game of thrones running around in silver jewelery armor. ![[image loading]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/37/a7/5e/37a75e3c04f707e2908bc9b63849aeff.jpg) Kylo Ren: ![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Ootp076.jpg) and beholde the supreme leader.... ![[image loading]](http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/image/upload/c_fill,h_576,w_741/t_mp_quality/screenshot-2014-09-17-at-17-57-43-why-these-harry-potter-villains-deserve-your-sympathy-not-hatred-png-136074.jpg) Also, WTF SNOKE is just a stupid name.... I mean really WTF how could they come up with villains that bad. I can shit talk about episodes 1-3 for days but at least they had better villains. The only other thing that I have to criticize is that Rey is a tad too strong... I mean where did she get all those years of training and flying experience to pull her flying stunts off... and she is pretty accurate for someone who obviously isn't used to handeling blasters and also in the fight against Ren she p0wns him (okay he was wounded, but I would have liked if she barely escaped...) They should leave the movie as it is but redo the villain part completly. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:40 Plansix wrote: I did. I was not swayed by the arguments. None of those specific problems effected my enjoyment of the film. I do not care about your enjoyment of the film. My point is factual: people standing on Takodana should not be able to witness in real time the destruction of the planets in the Hosnian system, let alone with their naked eyes. That is not how physics work in this universe or in the Star Wars universe. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:43 kwizach wrote: I do not care about your enjoyment of the film. My point is factual: people standing on Takodana should not be able to witness in real time the destruction of the planets in the Hosnian system, let alone with their naked eyes. That is not how physics work in this universe or in the Star Wars universe. With that agrument, I give zero fucks about your personal issues with the film and your need to nitpick the physics in a world with space wizards. Facts in Star Wars. Lol. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:46 Plansix wrote: With that agrument, I give zero fucks about your personal issues with the film and your need to nitpick the physics in a world with space wizards. Facts in Star Wars. Lol. I've replied to the "it has space wizards argument" several times: internal consistency matters. If you don't care about it, that's great, perhaps you can stop replying to me as if your life depended upon defending every single aspect of this movie. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 22 2015 08:48 kwizach wrote: I've replied to the "it has space wizards argument" several times: internal consistency matters. If you don't care about it, that's great, perhaps you can stop replying to me as if your life depended upon defending every single aspect of this movie. You know you're the comic book guy from the Simpsons right now, right? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
These scene could have been a little bit slower to actually show how much time has passed (which is my biggest complaint BY FAR), etc. But at the end of the day i am not too displeased with how it was done, especially because i think there will be more backstory in the next movies as well. For now we can speculate, use our own imagination to fill the holes, which isn't all that bad. The movie not explaining everything 100% also isn't really a inconsistency issue, it just didn't explain it. I can see where you are coming from, personally i wouldn't weigh it as much as you though, which is why i still think the movie was probably better than the old movies when we compare everything a movie has to offer. | ||
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