The Neon Genesis Evangelion Thread - Page 13

On September 14 2012 05:40 [F_]aths wrote:
I have the possibly dumbest question for someone who watched NGE several times.

Is Kaworu the final angel, but decides to side with humanity after meeting Shinji?

On September 14 2012 05:40 [F_]aths wrote:
I have the possibly dumbest question for someone who watched NGE several times.

Is Kaworu the final angel, but decides to side with humanity after meeting Shinji?

On September 14 2012 05:53 Fyrewolf wrote:


There's probably many interpretations. I think it helps to raise the question of whether the angels were even bad or trying to destroy humans in the first place. It's implied that the second impact only happened because humans did something to mess with adam there and caused him to blow up, and since then have just attacked angels on sight out of fear of a third impact. And the motivations of the angels is never clear, and kaworu doesn't make them any clearer, even if they are trying to reach adam, which would cause a third impact, we don't know why they want to reach adam. And as the more advanced angels show up, they appear to slowly be more able to contact humans (there is even a line somewhere asking why they call them angels, which are messengers of god, can't remember where though) with the angel that swallows shinji and the mind invading angel and finally kaworu. It's hard to tell why kaworu does what he does, because the motivations of the angels are so unclear.

On September 14 2012 06:11 Fyrewolf wrote:


I already know that. I still think their motivations are still pretty unclear, other than they want to reach Adam. The why is the unclear part, the effect of reaching adam will kill all humans, but the reason is vague. Just to kill everyone and rule the planet? More of a description of what would happen than a reason. I find it curious to think about whether the angels would fight each other if they encountered each other, if they are all different lifeform possibilities of what humanity could be. And the one-dimensional "kill everyone and rule" excuse for their actions doesn't really explain kaworu's actions very well either. That kind of answer is usually more a cop-out excuse that stands in for unknown reasons, than a true motivational reason itself. I think it's not a clear answer.

On September 14 2012 06:18 Gamegene wrote:


In episode 25, where Shinji is despairing over the fact that he killed Kaworu, he talks about how it was either kill or be killed.

In a sense, the Angels followed the same kind of logic humanity and NERV had in their defense: there are foreign, strange alien beings on the planet, who we cannot coexist with, and will destroy us unless we destroy them first. It's not like they cared about setting up a dominant government over the Earth, they just wanted to ensure their species survival.

Of course, Shinji is criticized during instrumentality for blindly following this logic, and told that he can't hide behind the excuse of "protecting mankind".

On September 14 2012 06:11 Fyrewolf wrote:
I still think their motivations are still pretty unclear, other than they want to reach Adam. The why is the unclear part, the effect of reaching adam will kill all humans, but the reason is vague. Just to kill everyone and rule the planet? More of a description of what would happen than a reason. I find it curious to think about whether the angels would fight each other if they encountered each other, if they are all different lifeform possibilities of what humanity could be. And the one-dimensional "kill everyone and rule" excuse for their actions doesn't really explain kaworu's actions very well either. That kind of answer is usually more a cop-out excuse that stands in for unknown reasons, than a true motivational reason itself. I think it's not a clear answer.

On September 14 2012 07:49 [F_]aths wrote:
I think it is hard to get to the ground of the plot because most characters are lying most of the time. If someone says something, it is often to be revealed later in the show that it wasn't so. Often times a person who states something has incomplete information and it isn't always clear who is the puppet of whom.

On September 14 2012 09:36 Tabularasa wrote:


It's been a few years since I dove into the NGE Lore and I don't know if my version fits with the information in the opening post, so bare with me

If I remember correctly, the reason why the angels usually attack Neo Tokyo (and not just humanity as a whole) is because they want to reawaken Adam - which "coincidently" would cause the Third Impact and wipe out civilisation.

The Angels are drawn to Adams "sleeping body" (reverted to its embryo form after the Second Impact) because they are Incarnations of Adams Soul, seeking their original body - this is the reason why only one Angel at a time can exist and why they attacked the Ship with EVA-02 on it (Remember Kaji's Role; iirc he was carrying the Embryo in a briefcase at that point?).

To understand why Kaworu acted the way he did and what happend in EoE, you need to take into accounts the different "goals" of the factions. This topic confused me a lot, so I'll try to keep it simple:
The Angels goal was a Third Impact by uniting Adams Soul with Adams body as I said above.

SEELEs goal was pretty much a Third Impact under their control by merging Adams Soul with Liliths (Mother of Humans) captured Body. Their aim was to use Kaworu (Being an artificial human-like angel in possession of SEELE) to fullfilling their goal. Forced Evolution of the Human race - The Human Instrumentality Project.

In the process of "Infiltration" Kaworu became friends with Shinji and realizes his honest intentions and desperation. When Kaworu successfully reached the Bottom of the Geo-Front he found Lilith, but realized its not Adam - and that he was tricked by SEELE. In foresight he gave his Life into Shinjis hands. Remember that he also connected with Rei and said they are "the same".

Another faction is Gendo Ikaris Secret Agenda: Using Rei (A clone from Lilith and Yuis DNA), Adams Body and EVA-01 (controlled by a Rei-Dummy-plug and Yuis Soul), he wants to create a Third Impact under his own control - as he believes that Rei will always obey him in the process. All just to reunite with Yui.

What actually happens in EoE is that Rei refuses Gendo Ikari at the beginning of the Third Impact because she realized her own Nature and Gendo using her (she realized she is a clone after blowing herself up to kill the Halo-like Angel and Kaworu probably let her understand even more) and instead gives control over the Third Impact (which is essentially a Soul-Harvest and uniting of human souls - bliss at the cost of individuality) to Shinji.


So, I hope these Lore-bombs were not packed to tightly and somewhat understandable.
If you watch the mind-fuck-parts with those relationships in the background they make a lot more sense too.

/Edit:
Oh, and remember that humanity itself is supposed to be the Final Angel after Kaworu Not as if this wasn't complicated enough already.

On September 15 2012 04:24 Tabularasa wrote:
I got used to it pretty quickly, but I guess it makes it less strange when you only read them in subtitles (I prefer sub over dub in most cases). Its like using Acronyms or Brand Names in a sentence.

But its just hilarious when Asuka gets that call from germany and Shinji listens to her speaking german, its ridiculously bad ;D