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On October 19 2014 04:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 02:27 LegalLord wrote:
How many of you are actually happy about the fact that villains never seemed to carry over into later seasons? I for one think it's a good idea to keep him alive. He almost certainly has something useful to say. I wish there was one overarching villain throughout the whole show, like the Fire Nation/Ozai for TLA. It creates an even more consistent narrative, and a persistent nemesis allows for a lot more development between nemesis and protagonist.
They didn't know how many seasons they were having in advance, so that wasn't really possible.
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On October 19 2014 04:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 02:27 LegalLord wrote:
How many of you are actually happy about the fact that villains never seemed to carry over into later seasons? I for one think it's a good idea to keep him alive. He almost certainly has something useful to say. I wish there was one overarching villain throughout the whole show, like the Fire Nation/Ozai for TLA. It creates an even more consistent narrative, and a persistent nemesis allows for a lot more development between nemesis and protagonist.
You say that, but Ozai was a rather bad villain. His power wasn't displayed at length, his character development was poor, and his motives were rather bland. He wasn't quite one dimensional, but he was close to being so.
He really only mattered in Book 3, and even then, I was never too impressed by him. Except for Unalaq, I've found LoK villains to be better in that regard.
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On October 19 2014 04:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 04:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 19 2014 02:27 LegalLord wrote:
How many of you are actually happy about the fact that villains never seemed to carry over into later seasons? I for one think it's a good idea to keep him alive. He almost certainly has something useful to say. I wish there was one overarching villain throughout the whole show, like the Fire Nation/Ozai for TLA. It creates an even more consistent narrative, and a persistent nemesis allows for a lot more development between nemesis and protagonist. They didn't know how many seasons they were having in advance, so that wasn't really possible.
Sure, and I totally get that, but I just wonder what could have truly been with Zaheer and company.
On October 19 2014 04:19 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 04:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 19 2014 02:27 LegalLord wrote:
How many of you are actually happy about the fact that villains never seemed to carry over into later seasons? I for one think it's a good idea to keep him alive. He almost certainly has something useful to say. I wish there was one overarching villain throughout the whole show, like the Fire Nation/Ozai for TLA. It creates an even more consistent narrative, and a persistent nemesis allows for a lot more development between nemesis and protagonist. You say that, but Ozai was a rather bad villain. His power wasn't displayed at length, his character development was poor, and his motives were rather bland. He wasn't quite one dimensional, but he was close to being so. He really only mattered in Book 3, and even then, I was never too impressed by him. Except for Unalaq, I've found LoK villains to be better in that regard.
Well, Ozai more or less came in for the finish. The Fire Nation army itself was the villain. You had constantly recurring nemesis that allowed for a lot more development between the two sides, and could explore a lot more of the relationships over time. A character like Zuko, for instance, could probably never have happened with the similar pacing/planning that LoK was forced to use.
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On October 19 2014 04:19 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 04:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 19 2014 02:27 LegalLord wrote:
How many of you are actually happy about the fact that villains never seemed to carry over into later seasons? I for one think it's a good idea to keep him alive. He almost certainly has something useful to say. I wish there was one overarching villain throughout the whole show, like the Fire Nation/Ozai for TLA. It creates an even more consistent narrative, and a persistent nemesis allows for a lot more development between nemesis and protagonist. You say that, but Ozai was a rather bad villain. His power wasn't displayed at length, his character development was poor, and his motives were rather bland. He wasn't quite one dimensional, but he was close to being so. He really only mattered in Book 3, and even then, I was never too impressed by him. Except for Unalaq, I've found LoK villains to be better in that regard.
I really hate this idea that every villain needs to be super developed with a complicated motive. Is there really anything wrong with having a villain that's just a madman bent on acquiring more power, barely more than being evil for evil's sake?
I mean, its really not uncommon. Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Ghenghis Khan, all of them were little more than people who wanted to gain power just for the sake of being powerful.
Sure, some villains are better for having a motive beyond that, and having a rich backstory, but you can't really call any particular villain bad for not having those things.
I think Ozai was a really good villain. You never really saw him do much of anything until the final battle. The only thing we actually see him do outside of Book 3 is burn the shit out of his own son's face. Combine that with all the tales of horror we hear about him and the previous two fire lords, and it really hammers home the idea that he is a bad motherfucker. Seeing a villain do horrible things is ok, but I think hearing rumors about his brutality can be just as effective. The less you know about a villain, the better boogeyman he is.
Honestly, I'd rather no motive over one as half-baked as Unalaq's. "I wanna be the Dark Avatar" is fanfiction-tier.
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"Each film is only as good as its villain."
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The episode was passable, if it was only table setting. I sort of miss the day of ALAB when each episode was mostly self contained, with exceptions. Plus when the outcomes are so predictable, its sort of dull.
Ready for the big shocker, Korra doesn't have metal in her body. Tofe just said that and she is going to have to "remove it" herself. Then butt kicking.
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On October 19 2014 12:23 Plansix wrote:
The episode was passable, if it was only table setting. I sort of miss the day of ALAB when each episode was mostly self contained, with exceptions. Plus when the outcomes are so predictable, its sort of dull.
Ready for the big shocker, Korra doesn't have metal in her body. Tofe just said that and she is going to have to "remove it" herself. Then butt kicking.
It certainly makes sense that she does have metal in her body still. I don't think it's like Toph to come up with some lame lie to give an excuse to Korra.
Besides, she was bending the metal inside her, and it clearly hurt Korra, thus proving there's metal there. What else could she bend inside Korra that would hurt her that way? I doubt the pain was psychological.
Regarding Ozai... Yes, there's nothing wrong with villains lacking development and just being madmen, however that's been done. It's kind of cliché. Besides, Napoléon as a villain? o_o
He was a conqueror and, much like Genghis Khan and many others, did what he did to create and expand an empire for power's sake and for the sake of his nation. Barring that, Napoléon also created the Napoleonic Code, which we (France) still use to this day. He contributed a great deal to society through his reforms. Could be because I'm French, but I never thought of Napoléon as a villain. Not until his later years anyway.
I guess my main point is that being evil for evil's sake is dull to me. We got that with Vaatu, and it was so bad it was almost comical. Vaatu himself that is. Maniacal laughters, lame lines, etc. I suppose we just have different opinions though. Fair enough.
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I would agree that I don't see Napoléon as a villian at all.
As an example - the switch from random measurements system to Metric and what would later become SI happened during Napoléon's time.
Philosophies (such as tolerance towards other religion) and political reforms (law, economics) that allowed France to transition away from chaos of the revolution into a stable super-power.
Napoléon was a conqueror, but he also had some interesting long-lasting contributions towards modern society.
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United States10328 Posts
Eh, but although Qin Shi Huang (the first emperor of China, and the namesake of Chin the Conquerer hehe) was the first to unify China and did a lot of work in standardization of currency and writing, he's still generally seen as a pretty heartless dude who killed anyone who disagreed with him. You can do a lot of good and still be a villain.
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On October 19 2014 17:35 ]343[ wrote:
Eh, but although Qin Shi Huang (the first emperor of China, and the namesake of Chin the Conquerer hehe) was the first to unify China and did a lot of work in standardization of currency and writing, he's still generally seen as a pretty heartless dude who killed anyone who disagreed with him. You can do a lot of good and still be a villain.
I think this is a rather fruitless discussion, since villain is a word much like protagonist and antagonist. It makes no sense to apply this word to real life. Do you for instance consider yourself an antagonist? I'm sure that a lot of people in the middle-east can contain their happiness over the United States bombing civilians, even though you believe you have a cause.
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The Fire Nation was bringing stability, code of law, and technological advancement to the rest of the world best some hippie kids ruined it imo.
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Quite a good episode. I liked how Toff wasn't giving in. I'm a bit disappointed in Bolin fighting with Mako again. He surely doesn't learn from past mistakes. : / Also that speech from Kuvira, lol. I'm now asking myself if she has a master plan or is just blind-folded. And what happened to the charming Kuvira in Book 3?
On October 18 2014 00:40 Lorning wrote:"...Then you know what's coming for Zaofu" I love Kuvira more and more every episode Also this ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9g8YHG9.png)
That face made me break out in laughter. So good.^^
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The more I watch this show, the more I find it disappointing. The story is disorganized with sub-threads not being properly defined, there are too many "important" characters to keep track of, the powers and abilities of supporting characters and villains are all over the place, and there is a lack of any emotion other than anger (and joy caused by the new love interest introduced). This is compared to ALAB.
To contrast, in ALAB, the sub-threads were all clearly defined most of the time. The 2 main ones were Zuko and Aang, and all others somehow directly influenced the other 2 immediately or gave context instantly. You could very easily draw a narrative chart like these without too much confusion + Show Spoiler +. For Korra, every member of "Team Avatar" has their own complex story and side characters, and they all intermingle and enter in-and-out of the main thread (Korra's) repeatedly. Except you can't actually develop complex stories and characters when you literally have over a dozen you want to develop crammed into 20 minute episodes, so you just have a bunch of cheap characters that are ultimately flat.
As for power levels, this really bothers me. The "masters" all seem utterly useless at anything other than buying time (and looking cool?). Maka and Bolin are supposed to be mid-tier with potential for growth, yet they constantly do better than Tenzin, Kya, and Lin against the "super bad guys." Their power is derived from what the story requires and which episode of the season they are in instead of the other way around. This is probably a side effect from having a new villain every 12 episodes, so instead of "cannon fodder" being used for mindless combat, they have to throw in the big guys too early and too often.
Finally, everybody is either mad or dating somebody (or mad at their love interest). There's no sadness, no loss, very little confusion or suspense, no relaxation, no satisfaction, no celebration, and the romantic interests develop instantly ("we like each other, so now we're dating"). The first season had some love-triangle tension, but that stuff seems cheap and hollow, especially since it creates more anger, which the show is FULL of already.
Watching TLAB and Korra side by side really shines a light how crappy this show is done. It isn't worth waiting for each episode to come out each week at this point.
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Really? The show is too angry? It's a more gritty show compared to ATLA, but do you say Game of thrones is too angry and heres only violence and anger? That argument is so fucking stupid holy shit.
And that shit about the characters? Two chakrams ago that was a good thing. People complain that Mako and Bolin have no life and follow the avatar around, and now you complain that they all have their own lives? Make up your mind people.
I mean the show is clearly not for 12 year olds, but are you seriously having trouble following the story lines? I dont think thats even possible. And i think its clear that this show is more about telling a story as opposed to fleshing out characters. ATLA did that and had a very generic-ish story. I guess you can say its worse, but thats just like your opinion man. I like both sides. The season 1 story arc was so fantastic, especially episodes 4 and 6 were phenomenal. Granted the ending lacked a bit and was rushed but what can you do.
And the power levels, sure there is a bit of plot-relativ powerupping here and there, but it's never unbelievable. I dont know how you can say that Mako and Bolin are stronger than Kya and Tenzin. Kya got defeated by MingHua but thats believable as Kya was never told to be a master fighter. Tenzin DID beat Zaheer, he even held up 1on3, but sparky sparky boom woman making it a 1on4 was too much. In the final showdown, its entirely believable that Mako beats MingHua, what is she supposed to do, not water bend at all? She though she has the advantage with her octupus style but Mako surprised her. As for Ghazan, Bolin was barely keeping up, but Ghazan clearly had the advantage and would have stomped him. He would probably even won 1on2 vs both the brothers, but he must have realized when Mako came back that MingHua is dead, Zaheer is getting stomped by the Avatar-state and there are a dozen more airbenders and probably also the metalbender guards around. He just didnt want to go back to prison, so again, believable for him to go out like that.
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On October 22 2014 00:48 aksfjh wrote:The more I watch this show, the more I find it disappointing. The story is disorganized with sub-threads not being properly defined, there are too many "important" characters to keep track of, the powers and abilities of supporting characters and villains are all over the place, and there is a lack of any emotion other than anger (and joy caused by the new love interest introduced). This is compared to ALAB. To contrast, in ALAB, the sub-threads were all clearly defined most of the time. The 2 main ones were Zuko and Aang, and all others somehow directly influenced the other 2 immediately or gave context instantly. You could very easily draw a narrative chart like these without too much confusion + Show Spoiler +. For Korra, every member of "Team Avatar" has their own complex story and side characters, and they all intermingle and enter in-and-out of the main thread (Korra's) repeatedly. Except you can't actually develop complex stories and characters when you literally have over a dozen you want to develop crammed into 20 minute episodes, so you just have a bunch of cheap characters that are ultimately flat. As for power levels, this really bothers me. The "masters" all seem utterly useless at anything other than buying time (and looking cool?). Maka and Bolin are supposed to be mid-tier with potential for growth, yet they constantly do better than Tenzin, Kya, and Lin against the "super bad guys." Their power is derived from what the story requires and which episode of the season they are in instead of the other way around. This is probably a side effect from having a new villain every 12 episodes, so instead of "cannon fodder" being used for mindless combat, they have to throw in the big guys too early and too often. Finally, everybody is either mad or dating somebody (or mad at their love interest). There's no sadness, no loss, very little confusion or suspense, no relaxation, no satisfaction, no celebration, and the romantic interests develop instantly ("we like each other, so now we're dating"). The first season had some love-triangle tension, but that stuff seems cheap and hollow, especially since it creates more anger, which the show is FULL of already. Watching TLAB and Korra side by side really shines a light how crappy this show is done. It isn't worth waiting for each episode to come out each week at this point.
I just have to ask, did you only watch the first season? Judging from your complaints it seems like you are judging just season 1 which is unfair.
Take season 1 of LoK and season 1 of ATLA and I'll be honest I think LoK season 1 is better then season 1 of ATLA (when I go back to watch season 1 I skip quite a few of the episodes due to how boring they are, they obviously have some really good episodes but a lot of bad ones to imo).
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On October 22 2014 10:57 Warri wrote:
Really? The show is too angry? It's a more gritty show compared to ATLA, but do you say Game of thrones is too angry and heres only violence and anger? That argument is so fucking stupid holy shit.
And that shit about the characters? Two chakrams ago that was a good thing. People complain that Mako and Bolin have no life and follow the avatar around, and now you complain that they all have their own lives? Make up your mind people.
I mean the show is clearly not for 12 year olds, but are you seriously having trouble following the story lines? I dont think thats even possible. And i think its clear that this show is more about telling a story as opposed to fleshing out characters. ATLA did that and had a very generic-ish story. I guess you can say its worse, but thats just like your opinion man. I like both sides. The season 1 story arc was so fantastic, especially episodes 4 and 6 were phenomenal. Granted the ending lacked a bit and was rushed but what can you do.
And the power levels, sure there is a bit of plot-relativ powerupping here and there, but it's never unbelievable. I dont know how you can say that Mako and Bolin are stronger than Kya and Tenzin. Kya got defeated by MingHua but thats believable as Kya was never told to be a master fighter. Tenzin DID beat Zaheer, he even held up 1on3, but sparky sparky boom woman making it a 1on4 was too much. In the final showdown, its entirely believable that Mako beats MingHua, what is she supposed to do, not water bend at all? She though she has the advantage with her octupus style but Mako surprised her. As for Ghazan, Bolin was barely keeping up, but Ghazan clearly had the advantage and would have stomped him. He would probably even won 1on2 vs both the brothers, but he must have realized when Mako came back that MingHua is dead, Zaheer is getting stomped by the Avatar-state and there are a dozen more airbenders and probably also the metalbender guards around. He just didnt want to go back to prison, so again, believable for him to go out like that.
Not saying anger is bad, but the show only has 2 emotional stages: people are angry at each other or they are falling in love. If you REALLY think the emotional depth of this show is the same as GoT, then both are over your head.
I never complained about Mako and Bolin following Korra around. There are ways to make that work.
And yes, Tenzin beat somebody 1-on-1 for once, and then Zaheer goes on to become an even more powerful airbender 10 minutes later, unlocking powers nobody has seen in "thousands of years." However, before that throughout the series, Tenzin gets repeatedly stomped in multiple fights. It's almost as if his fight with Zaheer was a token win or something, just to show he's not completely useless. The rest of your "explanations" are largely excuses, constructing motives and stories outside of what we are shown, and is purely conjecture.
On October 22 2014 12:22 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 00:48 aksfjh wrote:The more I watch this show, the more I find it disappointing. The story is disorganized with sub-threads not being properly defined, there are too many "important" characters to keep track of, the powers and abilities of supporting characters and villains are all over the place, and there is a lack of any emotion other than anger (and joy caused by the new love interest introduced). This is compared to ALAB. To contrast, in ALAB, the sub-threads were all clearly defined most of the time. The 2 main ones were Zuko and Aang, and all others somehow directly influenced the other 2 immediately or gave context instantly. You could very easily draw a narrative chart like these without too much confusion + Show Spoiler +. For Korra, every member of "Team Avatar" has their own complex story and side characters, and they all intermingle and enter in-and-out of the main thread (Korra's) repeatedly. Except you can't actually develop complex stories and characters when you literally have over a dozen you want to develop crammed into 20 minute episodes, so you just have a bunch of cheap characters that are ultimately flat. As for power levels, this really bothers me. The "masters" all seem utterly useless at anything other than buying time (and looking cool?). Maka and Bolin are supposed to be mid-tier with potential for growth, yet they constantly do better than Tenzin, Kya, and Lin against the "super bad guys." Their power is derived from what the story requires and which episode of the season they are in instead of the other way around. This is probably a side effect from having a new villain every 12 episodes, so instead of "cannon fodder" being used for mindless combat, they have to throw in the big guys too early and too often. Finally, everybody is either mad or dating somebody (or mad at their love interest). There's no sadness, no loss, very little confusion or suspense, no relaxation, no satisfaction, no celebration, and the romantic interests develop instantly ("we like each other, so now we're dating"). The first season had some love-triangle tension, but that stuff seems cheap and hollow, especially since it creates more anger, which the show is FULL of already. Watching TLAB and Korra side by side really shines a light how crappy this show is done. It isn't worth waiting for each episode to come out each week at this point. I just have to ask, did you only watch the first season? Judging from your complaints it seems like you are judging just season 1 which is unfair. Take season 1 of LoK and season 1 of ATLA and I'll be honest I think LoK season 1 is better then season 1 of ATLA (when I go back to watch season 1 I skip quite a few of the episodes due to how boring they are, they obviously have some really good episodes but a lot of bad ones to imo).
I actually caught up yesterday, all of season 3 into 4. I don't disagree with your claim about the first season being good compared to ATLA. I think both start out strong, but in different ways. In ATLA, there are definitely episodes and scenes that remind you it's a kid's show.
The rest of the seasons can easily be criticized for the same problems I stated in my initial post, although some of them are more relevant than others depending on the season.
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+ Show Spoiler +They're going to Zaofu pretty early, so I think it's pretty clear that it's going to fall.
The final fight will probably be for Republic City, which technically is on EK territory?
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+ Show Spoiler +Yeah it might be a bit rushed again. At least Korra's back. And the resolution is that she just needs to see her friends again. The episode was pretty standard. This series is 13 episodes right? srcThey didn't change it to 20 episodes right? I feel like I heard a long time ago that this season would be longer. For some reason I get the feeling Bolin and Korra will get together at the end. Bolin's having relationship issues. I'd prefer it if she remained independent. The series is short enough. We don't need to bother with forced romance. Milo never dropped his father's lesson on commanding respect with the lemurs. He's so impressionable. Iggi's jealous. It sounds reasonable.
Might get the new Korra game. It seems like fun if it's anything similar to magicka. It seems single player though.
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hmm i dont see the next episode?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/movie_narrative_charts.png)
