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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 17 2016 07:15 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 05:54 Logo wrote:
Arya beating the Waif in the darkness seems fine even if the Waif was trained while blind. Ayra at this point is supposed to have 2 rounds of training while blind/blindfolded and has trained specifically with needle and that weapon is far superior to the dagger the Waif had. Though the show didn't have Syrio teach her while blindfolded. I thought the general idea of that fight was reasonable; the Waif underestimated Arya because they didn't know she had formal sword training or had a sword at all.
The extent of Arya's injuries and all the other stuff around it was pretty terrible though. Plus making the whole Braavos arc somewhat pointless beyond an extended training sequence.
It seems like the show writers are as quickly as possible moving things to the safe & well trodden area and this entire season has been about reverting the character development of the previous seasons because they aren't able to figure out GRRM's intended story arc and more importantly how to fit that in with the short cuts they've taken along the way. Instead we're just taking where the books ended and taking the straightest and more direct route to the obvious conclusions and skipping all of the nuance and stuff that makes the books enjoyable. My suspicion is the show started on this path because that's what you do in an adaptation: follow the book arcs. Then they realized that a) they'd have to write their own resolution since GRRM wasn't releasing new books and b) they were running out of episodes the tie the entire series up. So they just decided to say F-it to Dorne, Braavos, Aegon, ect. At this point, I don't know what if anything their cutting decisions mean for what's still relevant or not in the book. I don't know that I agree with everything is being stripped of nuance. They do have a limited amount of time to tell the story after all and I don't really see what Arya's gained at all during her Braavos arc, it was just meandering.
I think what she gained from the Braavos arc is improving as an "assasin," which is to justify her later actions. I'm expecting her to (otherwise) inexplicably kill some major characters later on, which would be really unbelievable had it not been for her training in Braavos. That, or simply her role to play comes a bit later and, well, she has to do something until then.
However, I don't get how D&D could "say F-it to Dorne" just like that. Not that I don't hate that whole plotline in the show with passion, but it's still pretty important, and on top of it, it was discontinued at somewhat of a turning point. Maybe it has to align with the other plotlines somehow and they are just waiting? In any case, I think it's better to have no Dorne scenes at all than to have inexplicable "bad pussy" scenes just for filling so we don't forget that Dorne actually exists...
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On June 17 2016 07:26 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2016 07:15 Wuster wrote:On June 17 2016 05:54 Logo wrote:
Arya beating the Waif in the darkness seems fine even if the Waif was trained while blind. Ayra at this point is supposed to have 2 rounds of training while blind/blindfolded and has trained specifically with needle and that weapon is far superior to the dagger the Waif had. Though the show didn't have Syrio teach her while blindfolded. I thought the general idea of that fight was reasonable; the Waif underestimated Arya because they didn't know she had formal sword training or had a sword at all.
The extent of Arya's injuries and all the other stuff around it was pretty terrible though. Plus making the whole Braavos arc somewhat pointless beyond an extended training sequence.
It seems like the show writers are as quickly as possible moving things to the safe & well trodden area and this entire season has been about reverting the character development of the previous seasons because they aren't able to figure out GRRM's intended story arc and more importantly how to fit that in with the short cuts they've taken along the way. Instead we're just taking where the books ended and taking the straightest and more direct route to the obvious conclusions and skipping all of the nuance and stuff that makes the books enjoyable. My suspicion is the show started on this path because that's what you do in an adaptation: follow the book arcs. Then they realized that a) they'd have to write their own resolution since GRRM wasn't releasing new books and b) they were running out of episodes the tie the entire series up. So they just decided to say F-it to Dorne, Braavos, Aegon, ect. At this point, I don't know what if anything their cutting decisions mean for what's still relevant or not in the book. I don't know that I agree with everything is being stripped of nuance. They do have a limited amount of time to tell the story after all and I don't really see what Arya's gained at all during her Braavos arc, it was just meandering. I think what she gained from the Braavos arc is improving as an "assasin," which is to justify her later actions. I'm expecting her to (otherwise) inexplicably kill some major characters later on, which would be really unbelievable had it not been for her training in Braavos. That, or simply her role to play comes a bit later and, well, she has to do something until then. However, I don't get how D&D could "say F-it to Dorne" just like that. Not that I don't hate that whole plotline in the show with passion, but it's still pretty important, and on top of it, it was discontinued at somewhat of a turning point. Maybe it has to align with the other plotlines somehow and they are just waiting? In any case, I think it's better to have no Dorne scenes at all than to have inexplicable "bad pussy" scenes just for filling so we don't forget that Dorne actually exists...
Ya, you're probably right, Braavos is just to up her bad-ass quotient. It's a shame they dropped out her scenes with Sam though, that at least would have established her 'Stark-ness' better. But still, you got some of her letting go of her hate watching the play and talking to Lady Crane. So I guess there's some character development.
As for Dorne, after the show already decided they had no use for Quentyn / Aegon / Jon Connington there's just not much point to Dorne.
Despite all those cuts, I think a simplified Dorne was a logical follow-up to Oberon, it just wasn't done well and wasn't worth the time to continue (I feel that way about book Dorne too...). So they tried to paste over Balon Swann with Jaime to at least keep established characters.
Actually, I wonder if the real point was for Cersei's prophecy getting one step closer and to develop Jaime the family man rather than Jaime the split-from-Cersei-now-what redemption arc in the book (curious to see how show/book Jaime will end up, will it be the same/different place?).
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I actually think Cersei is going to go totally crazy, like Mad-King-level crazy, and Jaime will end up killing her, thus fulfilling the prophecy. In the books, at least, but I'm not sure the show would diverge from the books on such an important event. However, Show-Jaime's character really isn't headed that way, while it is something to easily be expected in the books.
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Arya in the books feels more bad ass for me. I was honestly unnerved when she killed the night watch's singer. One of the first kills that I couldn't predict.
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The more I think about it, the more it seems like Theon is gonna get Quentyn'd in ep10. if so I will definitely cry.
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On June 18 2016 02:24 B-royal wrote:
Arya in the books feels more bad ass for me. I was honestly unnerved when she killed the night watch's singer. One of the first kills that I couldn't predict.
And she's a competent assassin in the book capable of coming up with pretty involved plans.
I agree about the singer as well, with Trant the motivation is too personal, but killing the singer is really perfect. There's still old Arya there, exacting her father's justice, but it's overall something that gives her no personal benefit and is more or less in cold blood.
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On June 18 2016 06:39 l3loodraven wrote:
The more I think about it, the more it seems like Theon is gonna get Quentyn'd in ep10. if so I will definitely cry.
Wow, I hadn't thought about this, but it actually seems very likely!
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On June 18 2016 08:16 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2016 06:39 l3loodraven wrote:
The more I think about it, the more it seems like Theon is gonna get Quentyn'd in ep10. if so I will definitely cry. Wow, I hadn't thought about this, but it actually seems very likely!
Indeed, thinking about it it seems very possible. But that would be really so sad. Which makes it even more possible when i think about it.
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On June 18 2016 10:03 Rob-Zero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2016 08:16 Sholip wrote:On June 18 2016 06:39 l3loodraven wrote:
The more I think about it, the more it seems like Theon is gonna get Quentyn'd in ep10. if so I will definitely cry. Wow, I hadn't thought about this, but it actually seems very likely! Indeed, thinking about it it seems very possible. But that would be really so sad. Which makes it even more possible when i think about it.
It is indeed thought provoking, I hadn't considered it at all. Going off it, the book arc seems to be Yara using Theon to nullify the Kingsmoot results and crown Theon. If he dies, then that's out. Of course the show arc has Theon deferring to Asha.
So it seems if Asha, the bolder of the two takes Quentyn's role then you can put Theon back in play for the Seastone Throne like in the book no?
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My biggest complaint was no Manderlys and worst of all, WHERE WAS GHOST!?
Even just a shot of him riding alongside Jon or lunging in the background at a Bolten man's throat.....
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I like Manderlys too. I like part in the books with Manderlys, freys and Lord Davos being "executed".
They have removed a lot of political parts that I liked in the books. For example I liked Mereen part in Dance with Dragons (It is the only book in wich I liked Daenerys parts in addition to the first book) with Barristan, the Dorne guy, etc.
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Did you guys watch the behind the scenes thing after the episode? Listening to the producers talk, I could really tell how untethered from the books the TV show has become. It was readily apparent that GRRM had provided them with little other than major plot points.
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TIL that Littlefinger can teleport whole armies. 
The episode was solid in my opinion, even though there was literally no surprise for me.
Btw, do you think Davos is going to kill Melisandre? He seems a bit mad at the moment...
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I enjoyed the episode over all. There are things I could nitpick, but if every episode was this good my complaints about the series would be a fraction of what they are. Most of the things that I could nitpick were set up in episodes prior to this one, so no changing them now. The minor issues include Sansa not telling Jon that the Vale is coming and letting him suicide charge when they could have waited a few hours, especially when they just talked about what could be done the night before and she just didn't bother mentioning that option. How is Jon not going to be extremely pissed about that now? Rickon was such a non-character that his death couldn't mean anything for the audience. Should have shown his PoV for the past few seasons since they split if they wanted his death to matter to the viewers.
And of course the Vale and Theon/Yara's travel time is all silly unrealistic, but I've given up expecting anything else from these writers.
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On June 20 2016 21:43 karazax wrote:
I enjoyed the episode over all. There are things I could nitpick, but if every episode was this good my complaints about the series would be a fraction of what they are. Most of the things that I could nitpick were set up in episodes prior to this one, so no changing them now. The minor issues include Sansa not telling Jon that the Vale is coming and letting him suicide charge when they could have waited a few hours, especially when they just talked about what could be done the night before and she just didn't bother mentioning that option. How is Jon not going to be extremely pissed about that now? Rickon was such a non-character that his death couldn't mean anything for the audience. Should have shown his PoV for the past few seasons since they split if they wanted his death to matter to the viewers.
And of course the Vale and Theon/Yara's travel time is all silly unrealistic, but I've given up expecting anything else from these writers.
Sansa couldn't let Jon know about the Vale b/c if she did, he wouldn't have acted the way he did and Ramsay would have noticed and retreated his army back into Winterfell. She also wasn't 100% sure he was going to show up.
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Jon wasn't supposed to act the way he did in the first place, their plan was to lure Ramsay out and have him attack them. Besides they said Ramsay had to come out and attack so he didn't look scared in front of his men. And while Sansa might not have been 100% sure Littlefinger would show up, a lot of Jon's men lost their lives needlessly because she didn't even mention it was a possibility. I think the only reason not to mention it to Jon was they wanted it to be a "surprise" for the viewers, though I imagine most people saw it coming from the start.
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I liked the episode. The cinematography was breathtaking. Great shots all throughout.
If I had to nitpick, I'd say the Vale army pulling a Blackwater 2.0 is a bit lame. They could have handled that particular segment so much better, too. Littlefinger and Ramsay have already been put in contact in the show, so in my opinion, the best way to go about this was to have Littlefinger send a raven to Ramsay about the incoming battle; telling him he'll fight for him when he rallies his army and help him defeat the wildlings and Jon. Then, when the Vale knights show up, Ramsay is naturally pleased and is relishing in Sansa's defeat, but then...
Would have loved to see that. But still, it was good. I really, really hope they don't oversimply LF's character. They made him really interesting in S1-S2, but after that, not so much. He needs scheming, he needs to stick to his "Chaos is a ladder" speech. From what we've seen of him this season and in the previous one, he's turning into a not-so-smart character, and that's not good.
Looking forward to the finale.
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On June 20 2016 21:58 karazax wrote:
Jon wasn't supposed to act the way he did in the first place, their plan was to lure Ramsay out and have him attack them. Besides they said Ramsay had to come out and attack so he didn't look scared in front of his men. And while Sansa might not have been 100% sure Littlefinger would show up, a lot of Jon's men lost their lives needlessly because she didn't even mention it was a possibility. I think the only reason not to mention it to Jon was they wanted it to be a "surprise" for the viewers, though I imagine most people saw it coming from the start.
Your right - if Jon had stuck to the plan then the Vale would have been able to come in behind the Boltons and wipe them out. It wasn't Sansa's fault Jon acted irrationally and charged. If the Vale had shown up sooner, Ramsey wouldn't have looked weak retreating to Winterfell- he would have looked prudent. There are several reasons she might not have mentioned the possiblity- the first I have already explained - another is she didn't want Jon to "owe" Littlefinger; a third is that she sees Jon as a challenge to her controlling the North and wouldn't mind him dead.
As you have pointed out - it wasn't a surprise to anyone watching and they have been setting it up for the last several episodes - so why would they do that?
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I was disappointed in the Vale, not because it was bad, but because it was so predictable. It's ok to be predictable, but it's just the way D&D write the "subtle hints" is just really stupid at this point. Like, it was supposed to be a surprise, but was anyone not expecting them to show up? They're so heavy handed in their "subtlety" that it can feel very frustrating when they try to shock people with a twist. I was never scared for Jon during the battle because I knew Littlefinger was going to show. I was scared for Tormund, though.
That said, the battle itself was amazingly shot. Visceral, claustrophobic, chaotic. It felt great to watch, better than most battles the show has had, in fact I might rank it the best. And the ending with Ramsay and Sansa was, again predictable, but this time felt really bloody satisfying.
I'm excited for next week's episode. I know someone is going to die, you just know they won't leave a season without some sort of big twist, but I'm not sure who. Which is, again, much better than I could say about this week's episode.
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I'm curious to see the interaction between Sansa and Littlefinger moving forwards. TBH she should just tell sweet robin that LF killed her mom, LF gets offed and then she's free to do whatever
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EPT
