|
SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On June 16 2015 01:07 Spaylz wrote:
So now that the season is really over, I think we can take a real look at Sansa's storyline and her character development.
And I think it's pretty bad. I was right in the end, they did make her go backwards. Throughout season 4 she was finally starting to gather some strength, to be more assertive and so on. But in the end she just kind of rolls over and goes with the whims of whoever is with her.
Sure, she stood up to Myranda somewhat. But she also just ran away. She didn't try to play the game. She was just trying to flee.
The worst thing is that I don't even blame Sansa for that. I blame the situation in which she was written. Ramsay is not someone with whom you can play the game. He is far too ruthless and random. Roose would be more adequate in that situation, but he is light years ahead of Sansa.
Anyway... Overall, I can personally say I'm very unsatisfied with the conclusion to Sansa's story for this season.
I agree that her character wasn't taken in the right direction. She didn't get progressively smarter and more cunning; her strength peaked at standing up to Myranda and after that she was a damsel in distress, pacified by being at the mercy of a sexual torturer and madman.
It's understandable that it's a very difficult place to be, however I think they could have made everyone like Sansa a lot more (and made Sansa a more interesting character overall) by having her excel in that situation. For example, they showed nothing of the murders in Winterfell that happen in the book. They show Sansa being scared and failing to escape a few times after her rape, but that's it. Sansa seems to be able to move somewhat freely through the castle, so she could be the hooded (wo)man in Winterfell, killing Bolton and Frey men to create chaos and mutiny.
There was the one time when she tongue-tied Ramsay with the talk about his father's new heir and Tommen being a bastard, etc., but that's as close as we ever get to seeing her do something cool and independent. She had kind of a big moment at the end of S4 when she saved Littlefinger and, seemingly, went well outside what his plans were, because she realized it was for her own good. It's a shame to see her suddenly put in a new situation and being helpless again.
Anyway, after this episode it seems obvious that + Show Spoiler [S6/TWOW] +Qyburn works for Dorne, and Shagga (son of Dolf) is the Valonqar
|
Davos new Lord Commander, to provide POV at the wall
|
Are you ready for the new conspiracy theories about Stannis? They didn't show his dead body
Varys showing up in Meereen and telling Tyrion they need to run that city together made me laugh
|
On June 15 2015 16:35 Spaylz wrote:
I think that was a decent episode.
Some seriously cringy stuff though. The Sand Snake's line..., what was it? "You want the good girl but you need the bad pussy"? Jeez I facepalmed super hard at that one. That was so bad.
Everything in Dorne was bad. And pointless. The entire arc. From Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, to them just waltzing in the Water Gardens and having a terribly choreographed fight scene with the Sand Snakes. And to them getting away with it, bringing Myrcella AND Trystane (I still don't know why he's going?)... only to have Myrcella die. It seems to me that they could have easily killed her during that awful fight scene. Oh well.
.
SURPRISE! Everything Jamie has been doing in the books along with Quentyn Martelle and Vicarion has also been pointless and bad as well. At least The show cut down on the useless arcs and stuck with just one.
|
Victarion's arc hasn't concluded yet. There is no reason to believe it's going to be as pointless as the life of Quentyn Martell.
|
Having the battle of Winterfell in season 6 is probably the easiest call that wasn't made in the history of television...
Seriously,
- You have no money left so you make something random with three guys and call it a fight.
- You have no place left so everything feels rushed (Melisandre leaves way too early, there are at least three character scenes missing around the sacrifice and her getaway).
- You already have plenty of stuff happening in this episode so you didn't need it to engage us, and you could have had Stannis scenes without it (around Selyse's death and Melisandre leaving (as she needs to be at the Wall at the end of the season for Jon, obv), for example).
- There is no discussion of what was done to Shireen. Actually, there is almost no discussion at all.
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On June 16 2015 02:39 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 16:35 Spaylz wrote:
I think that was a decent episode.
Some seriously cringy stuff though. The Sand Snake's line..., what was it? "You want the good girl but you need the bad pussy"? Jeez I facepalmed super hard at that one. That was so bad.
Everything in Dorne was bad. And pointless. The entire arc. From Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, to them just waltzing in the Water Gardens and having a terribly choreographed fight scene with the Sand Snakes. And to them getting away with it, bringing Myrcella AND Trystane (I still don't know why he's going?)... only to have Myrcella die. It seems to me that they could have easily killed her during that awful fight scene. Oh well.
. SURPRISE! Everything Jamie has been doing in the books along with Quinen Martelle and Vicarion has also been pointless and bad as well. At least The show cut down on the useless arcs and stuck with just one.
True but Dorne is probably more pointless than Vicarion / Riverlands without Arianne and Quentyn
|
On June 16 2015 02:39 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 16:35 Spaylz wrote:
I think that was a decent episode.
Some seriously cringy stuff though. The Sand Snake's line..., what was it? "You want the good girl but you need the bad pussy"? Jeez I facepalmed super hard at that one. That was so bad.
Everything in Dorne was bad. And pointless. The entire arc. From Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, to them just waltzing in the Water Gardens and having a terribly choreographed fight scene with the Sand Snakes. And to them getting away with it, bringing Myrcella AND Trystane (I still don't know why he's going?)... only to have Myrcella die. It seems to me that they could have easily killed her during that awful fight scene. Oh well.
. SURPRISE! Everything Jamie has been doing in the books along with Quinen Martelle and Vicarion has also been pointless and bad as well. At least The show cut down on the useless arcs and stuck with just one.
It's character development. He also wraps up the War of the Five Kings as peacefully as he can. And he learns to act like a commander as opposed to a soldier.
Maybe you don't like it, and that is fine. Call it bad if you will. But pointless? No. I could understand how someone might say Brienne's arc was pointless in AFFC, but Jaime's arc in the Riverlands and throughout was GRRM furthering his character by breaking him away further from Cersei and having him learn new ways to solve problems.
|
On June 16 2015 02:55 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 02:39 Figgy wrote:On June 15 2015 16:35 Spaylz wrote:
I think that was a decent episode.
Some seriously cringy stuff though. The Sand Snake's line..., what was it? "You want the good girl but you need the bad pussy"? Jeez I facepalmed super hard at that one. That was so bad.
Everything in Dorne was bad. And pointless. The entire arc. From Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, to them just waltzing in the Water Gardens and having a terribly choreographed fight scene with the Sand Snakes. And to them getting away with it, bringing Myrcella AND Trystane (I still don't know why he's going?)... only to have Myrcella die. It seems to me that they could have easily killed her during that awful fight scene. Oh well.
. SURPRISE! Everything Jamie has been doing in the books along with Quinen Martelle and Vicarion has also been pointless and bad as well. At least The show cut down on the useless arcs and stuck with just one. It's character development. He also wraps up the War of the Five Kings as peacefully as he can. And he learns to act like a commander as opposed to a soldier. Maybe you don't like it, and that is fine. Call it bad if you will. But pointless? No. I could understand how someone might say Brienne's arc was pointless in AFFC, but Jaime's arc in the Riverlands and throughout was GRRM furthering his character by breaking him away further from Cersei and having him learn new ways to solve problems.
Not to say it was terrible writing, but in the long run of the story it was absolutely pointless. They could have cut Jamie out of the last 2 books completely just as they could have cut him out of the show completely this season and the story would have continued as if he didn't exist just fine.
The show cutting out the Greyjoy arc completely probably means that Vicarion also has no reasonable purpose in the overall scheme as well, which is rather unfortunate.
However I really like the theory that Sansa becomes LSH, it would bring the show and books back to proper parity and with Brienne where she is now I could definitely seeing it work.
|
On June 16 2015 03:01 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 02:55 Spaylz wrote:On June 16 2015 02:39 Figgy wrote:On June 15 2015 16:35 Spaylz wrote:
I think that was a decent episode.
Some seriously cringy stuff though. The Sand Snake's line..., what was it? "You want the good girl but you need the bad pussy"? Jeez I facepalmed super hard at that one. That was so bad.
Everything in Dorne was bad. And pointless. The entire arc. From Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne, to them just waltzing in the Water Gardens and having a terribly choreographed fight scene with the Sand Snakes. And to them getting away with it, bringing Myrcella AND Trystane (I still don't know why he's going?)... only to have Myrcella die. It seems to me that they could have easily killed her during that awful fight scene. Oh well.
. SURPRISE! Everything Jamie has been doing in the books along with Quinen Martelle and Vicarion has also been pointless and bad as well. At least The show cut down on the useless arcs and stuck with just one. It's character development. He also wraps up the War of the Five Kings as peacefully as he can. And he learns to act like a commander as opposed to a soldier. Maybe you don't like it, and that is fine. Call it bad if you will. But pointless? No. I could understand how someone might say Brienne's arc was pointless in AFFC, but Jaime's arc in the Riverlands and throughout was GRRM furthering his character by breaking him away further from Cersei and having him learn new ways to solve problems. Not to say it was terrible writing, but in the long run of the story it was absolutely pointless. They could have cut Jamie out of the last 2 books completely just as they could have cut him out of the show completely this season and the story would have continued as if he didn't exist just fine. The show cutting out the Greyjoy arc completely probably means that Vicarion also has no reasonable purpose in the overall scheme as well, which is rather unfortunate. However I really like the theory that Sansa becomes LSH, it would bring the show and books back to proper parity and with Brienne where she is now I could definitely seeing it work.
I suppose. I mean, he is brought to Lady Stoneheart in the end. Jaime is my favourite character, so maybe I'm biased.
About the Greyjoys: actually, there were some pretty interesting casting calls for season 6. We might get the Greyjoys after all, methinks.
|
So, is Stannis really still alive? Sure, they didn't show his death on screen, but that wouldn't be the first time they did that and the character still died anyhow. And I mean.. what is there for Stannis to do if he does live? He killed his daughter, his wife killed herself, half his army deserted, the other half was killed in battle, Melisandre abandoned him, and Davos sure isn't going to buy him any birthday presents anymore.. there's literally nothing left for him.
What's he going to do in season 6, hypothetically speaking? The only thing I can imagine is him going to the Wall and becoming the lord commander somehow, redeeming himself by battling the white walkers, but that sure isn't going to work with Melisandre or Davos or undead Jon Snow around.
|
Wasn't there a vision that Dany had in the House of the Undying that hinted that Stannis may become a wight commander?
|
So Jon Snow might warg for a full season - as book readers we know he can anyway - and then come back after a full season of warging. Or not! But still funny that I said a lot of pages back that Jon might just die... we have no evidence that he lives anyway, except theories...
Good conclusion to this season - it must have been though to transform these last two books into a proper season as we could clearly see. The pace will pick up from now I expect!
Also on Kit Harrington - if he is seen near sets then it will be clear he is not dead. Except of course if they say he is coming for flashback scenes or something stupid
|
What a shitty end. I mean, it seems the synopsis of this season was let's kill everyone. Stanis? Well, ok I guess. Myrcela? Whaaat? Jon, without any mention of the prophecy and warging? Whaaaat? There's no way he's warging, non at all, as there wasn't a single hint of that in the show. Maybe melissandre resurects him, like that lord of yellow banners.
Also, I don't understand where they are going with this show. I give them at most 3 more seasons, and they seem to be planning to leave the daenerys, tyrion and the rest in mereen for at least one season if not more.
|
Oh, and another thing about Sansa (yes I am on a vendetta): what purpose did her rape serve, if any?
I think none. I think the rape amounted to nothing. It just put her back into passiveness. It made her servile again. So... as some expected here, it was done for shock value.
Thoughts?
|
On June 16 2015 05:29 Odoakar wrote:
Also, I don't understand where they are going with this show. I give them at most 3 more seasons, and they seem to be planning to leave the daenerys, tyrion and the rest in mereen for at least one season if not more.
Dany will come back to Meereen with the Dothraki horde, then some Greyjoy shows up with a thousand ships and takes everyone to Westeros. It's stupid but can be done in one season and it's not like stupid things can't happen in GoT.
|
On June 16 2015 01:45 Sent. wrote:
Are you ready for the new conspiracy theories about Stannis? They didn't show his dead body
Varys showing up in Meereen and telling Tyrion they need to run that city together made me laugh
I would usually consider shit like not showing the actual kill as ground to speculate, but Stannis has 0 plot armor, there's just nothing he has left.
Like most ridiculous scenario i can come up with is him joining the NW, but that s like stupidly nonsense as well.
On the contrary, we have Jon shown stabbed like 8 times, bleeding to death, no shot of Ghost or Mel, the creators saying he s dead, the actor saying he s dead, yet i'm still fairly convinced he's coming back, i admit, the interviews kinda cought me off-guard (then again, would they admit in the interview it's a fake death? I mean Jon DOES die, he'll just come back), but Jon has plot-armor like nobody else had in the show, there s just no way of telling the story well with him dying just there.
Why the hell would Mel teleport back to the Wall? What s the point of her being there?
What's the point of Sam's arc, he'll become the new archmaster who'll write about the history of Westeros, getting wiped by icezombies? Without Jon there s no point of having him there.
Who the hell will show what's happening at the Wall? Oh i know, since Mel is there she'll form a personal cult from the Wildlings, burn the NW men, and start casting fireballs at the Walkers, right? Or alternatively we could see Edd being emo and passive agressive with the rest of the Watch.
What's the point of his stare-down with the Nightking, and him having the hardcounter-sword?
But ok, let's say he's dead, and the obviously open plotlines regarding him just lose relevance/ transition into something else, or hell, we'll ignore the Wall for the next season/book, and get back when we can send dragons North: in that case it's the greatest red-herring of the century, as well as very poor fucking writing, cuz why would u set up a complex situation like that, then say j/k, he's dead. Compate it to Robb, Ned, Oberyn, neither was strictly needed to tell the story, or to show the events to come, and all their deaths contributed in MAJOR ways to the plot and character development of others.
Whose character does Jon's death develop? Sam- not there. Thorne? -come on, Mellisandre - had nothign to do with it, Olly?- bitch please, he s a pure excuse for a show-only character. Sansa, Arya? they wouldnt even know.
What story-arc does his death advance? I would say none, but well, this one is arguable, but again, there's no POV to narrate all that, aside from Mel, which would make some horribly shitty conflict development between the NW and the Wildlings. And that story wouldnt be particularily exciting even if told from a better perspective.
Jon being resurrected is set up by 10000 things, and his death makes no sense whatsoever, so yeah, i'd bet money on him being alive. The absolute most i could even consider is that they kill him off in the show, and he's resurrected in the books, but even that is unlikely. I'd go with 95% he comes back in the books, 85% he's coming back in the show as well.
Rant over.
|
well, jon is dead, like dead dead, for sure, he can't be resurrected if he isnt dead 
i suspect sam will indeed become a maester, with a valyrian steel chain 
|
Well we had a pretty good rant so I'll pitch in.
Fucking Dany.
I'll start off by saying I hate her. At the end of book 5, she is left alongside Drogon while the khalasar is approching. We get she is in a shit situation, but since it's Dany the dragon will probably make the Dothrakis hesitate and allow Dany to bargain for her life like "i'm the only one who can control Drogon" or something. There is no way in hell Drogon or Dany lives if the Dothraki decides they don't like her, they won't make 10 meters before being killed. But at least GRRM gives Dany a chance by having her stand next to Drogon so she isn't raped/killed right away.
However, in the show Dany is walking alone in the middle of nowhere when the khalasar stumbles upon her. For ANY other female ASOIAF character that means certain rape, followed by option a ) more rape or option b ) death. But it's fucking Daenerys Targaryen, mother of luck, breaker of probability, queen of numbers and casinos we have there, no way that happens. So we have a lone female, that will undoubtly remain untouched for absolutely no reason at all except her name is Daenerys. Makes no fucking sense, but on the other hand her dying also makes since everything relating to Daenerys makes no sense so what do I know.
|
On June 16 2015 05:29 Odoakar wrote:
What a shitty end. I mean, it seems the synopsis of this season was let's kill everyone. Stanis? Well, ok I guess. Myrcela? Whaaat? Jon, without any mention of the prophecy and warging? Whaaaat? There's no way he's warging, non at all, as there wasn't a single hint of that in the show. Maybe melissandre resurects him, like that lord of yellow banners.
Also, I don't understand where they are going with this show. I give them at most 3 more seasons, and they seem to be planning to leave the daenerys, tyrion and the rest in mereen for at least one season if not more.
99% chance we will have 7 seasons.
It's been their goal forever, and seeing how they rushed through two books in one season, I think we can see how realistic that is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
