SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
On May 12 2015 05:09 karazax wrote: so what's the point of casting Myranda and giving her so much screen time? [...]
Make your characters consistent. Preferably with the books when possible, because why not? [...]
Why change things just for the sake of change, if you could follow the book without adding any cast, budget increase or screen time increase? [...]
as if it is mutually exclusive to stay as true to the books as possible and have non-readers enjoy the show. [...]
Would non-readers not like the show if Jaime didn't still love Cersei?
Everything here makes it look like you still operate on the basic (and not at all unreasonable, mind you) assumption that an adaption that stays as true to the original as possible is inherently better and something the person adapting the material should inherently strive for. The idea that there needs to be a very good reason to change something, or it should not be changed. In principle I would agree with that. Let's only make changes when the budget or the lack of time (to film or to show an episode) dictates it.
In practice, however, there are a myriad of other factors you need to consider, and life just isn't quite as simple. Oftentimes you have a butterfly effect of small changes that lead to big changes. Oftentimes you have the necessary changes to make that you acknowledge (lack of money and time and attention span of the viewers), or there's a very TV specific thing to consider (You can't hide the fact that Barristan is Barristan when he goes to Dany, so he introduced himself right away in the show, instead of waiting some weeks like in the books).
Why give Myranda screen time? To show that Ramsay is not just a psychotic monster, but a dude who has to juggle his girlfriends in his own, unique way (Making him a good deal more interesting). To give Sansa a character to interact with that is not Ramsay or Theon. To create some tension for the viewers (is she really going to toss Sansa to the hounds?). And yes, to show some titties. And, presumably, to have her killed off eventually in one way or another.
Why does Jaime go to Dorne? I agree that it's a bit silly if you think about it, sending a well known member of the ruling family who can be identified in a laughably easy manner ("show me your hand") to a secret mission isn't exactly a good idea. But, eh. Whatever. I can live with small inconsistencies like that. Every single TV show has them, and I dare say every book has them, too. Certainly book series spanning thousands of pages.
Why did they send him there, though? Because the Riverlands plot has been pretty much eliminated early on in the show, and introducing it now would create yet another location that would take up a certain amount of time to show. And since the Riverland plot was gone, they had to find something for Jaime to do. They couldn't have him in King's Landing thanks to what will happen to Cersei, either. In addition, Dorne is a new location with more than a handful new, important characters. It is important to toss a well known character into the mix for such things to keep people's interest ("why should I care about all these new guys?"), so Jaime seems like a natural fit. On top of that, we have Bronn, who is an awesome and popular character that, if we'd go by the books, would be written out of the show by now. Putting him together with Jaime allows for quite some entertaining scenes that people look forward to. On top of that, we now will have Jaime, a character who is personally quite invested in saving Myrcella, instead of some Kingsguard dude we barely care about, making it all much more relatable. And if there's danger, we actually care about Jaime or Bronn potentially dying, instead of some other random dude who might have been sent to save her.
These questions simply don't have one definite answer. They have a bunch of them, and if there's far more arguments in favor for a plot than there are against it, it's being done. Television writers cannot afford to spend a year or more trying to figure out the perfect plot that makes sense, rewriting entire seasons when there's the need to. They have to have their plot ready by a certain date, period. As such, good television plots are, overall, worse than good book plots. It's simply in their very nature.
Not to mention that from this season on, they're pretty much out of plot from the books anyhow and need to make up the story as they go along anyhow. Sure there's still major plot points to consider, but with D&D's knowledge of the end of the whole story, they need to change the course of various plots now so it seamlessly switches into their version of GoT, instead of having a hard cut where you go from the book plots straight to the show plots. I assume that that would explain Sansa's storyline, for instance. We don't know where Sansa will end up at the very end, but they do, and they're already making sure she's well on her way.
I think we need to wait until the season is over before we start to really decompose and analyse each change and deviation from the books. As hard as it may be for us book readers, I do believe it is important to try and assess the quality of the show by basing ourselves solely on those scenes and ignoring the books.
However, karazax makes a simple, beautiful point: this is an adaptation. What is the point of an adaptation if you deviate so much from the source material?
Of course, sometimes deviations are necessary. A solid half of AFFC/ADWD would not work at all if put on screen as is. But in some cases it does feel like they change things just for the sake of change... A good example of this in S5 would be Jaime's arc. Why send him to Dorne? We saw the Riverlands in S1, S2 and S3 (all through Robb's storyline), and even introduced the other Tully characters. I understand that Dorne needs to have enough reason to actually be featured, but honestly, so far the Sand Snakes just aren't cutting it for me.
If anything, I would have preferred for Bronn to be sent alone. That would have given him some character development other than just being your go-to Lannister bro, and it would have allowed to send Jaime to the Riverlands. Seriously. Keep the Bronn & Jaime scenes as Bronn alone, and replace the Missandei non sense with Jaime. Tada.
I guess my point is that having legitimate, quality source material replaced with some bullshit romance trope between a eunuch and a former slave is a tough pill to swallow. Especially when you know what could have been.
You can't send anyone alone in a TV show, not when he's on a secret mission. In a book you can have internal monologues and thoughts whatnot. You need to externalize all that in a show, and you do that by having people talk. And for that you need a second person to talk to. And those people can't just be random people he meets either, like a barmaid or whatever, because it would make no sense for him to talk to them about plot relevant stuff. That's why Brienne has Pod. That's why Arya has pretty much not been alone all her journey long, and the parts where she was alone were pretty much not shown. And that's why there's the Jaime & Bronn show.
Having Jaime in the Riverlands and Bronn in Dorne would take up way more time than Missandei & Grey Worm (who are also paired together to externalize inner monologues and thoughts) do, it would introduce an additional set of >5 important characters, it would complicate the plot further, etc. There are many, many reasons that speak against doing it that way, as cool as it would be. Don't get me wrong, I'm annoyed by the Missandei scenes, too, but I understand why they exist.
As for why having adaptions in the first place.. well, honestly? If you look at it from a money hungry producer's perspective, you don't buy the awesome plot or story, you buy the fans. And with a show, you make sure the fans are happy at first (hello perfectly adapted first season) and spread the word to make sure to get more and more people hooked. Then.. well, you don't need the fans as much anymore, so you can take a whole lot more freedom with your plot to keep the majority (and not the book readers) happy. Not saying that that's how it was here, I have faith in D&D being true fans of the books and GRRM, but that's often how it works. Cynically speaking, GoT has become a gigantic success, and it does not need the books anymore, and it does not need to be a proper adaption anymore.
There are many more things factoring into this, of course, but the people who actually pay for all of it not being as interested as we are in keeping an adaption faithful sure is a big factor.
Yes, you're right that they don't need the book readers at this point. They have a big enough popular audience who hasn't read the books. However, staying faithful to the books as much as possible gives D&D a mostly coherent starting point from which they can make some changes to fit TV. As they go off on their own fanfic, they risk coherency and need to put a whole lot of their own effort into understanding the characters and the plots and how they all weave together. That's a huge undertaking from a writing perspective and a major risk. GRRM did that for them in the books and the truer they stay to the books, the less risk they have of inconsistencies and poorly meshing plots.
Even those who haven't read the books want a coherent story that takes many varying plots and blends them together in a sensible way. By following the books, D&D get something that will make non-book people happy. By going off on their own, they add a lot of risk which may end up hurting the product and make it less enjoyable for the non-book readers.
Like, my mom is a non-book reader, but watches the show. She was confused as all hell about the Sand Snakes scene. She didn't know who the guy was who they killed and why they killed him... she actually originally thought it was Varys. When I explained who everyone was, it still didn't make sense to her. Why kill the captain who gave them information? He seems like a very useful ally to have along that trading corridor. D&D turned the Sand Snakes into B-movie villains, which seems completely out of place in the GoT world and now one non-book reader is confused.
I would agree with you if all 7 books were out and the book series were finished already. In fact, in that case I would be with you guys and a whole lot more critical of the changes. But as it stands, they're pretty much running out of plot to adapt at this point, so they simply have to make a bunch of changes to switch over to their own vision of how the story will unfold.
Remember that almost all changes in the previous seasons could be explained with "We can't introduce yet another character" or "We don't have the money/time to do that". Only in the last season did they start to make up their own stuff, because by then they knew where they wanted to go with the future seasons and had to set course for those plots, basically. It's a far more reasonable thing to do than sticking to the books as close as possible until there is literally nothing left to adapt, and then starting to make up your own stories.
Tyrion may also have it. It is stressed that one never knows when greyscale will strike once they have been in contact with Stonemen or infected people. Many Tyrion chapters also have a pretty big emphasis on him checking himself for stiffness and scales.
Mormont getting greyscale does seem to indicate that he might replace Jon Connington, though I'm not quite sure how that would work. Maybe he would be connected back to the Golden Company and (f)Aegon somehow?
@Conti, good points about inner dialogue and TV characters needing a partner. Didn't think of that. I do think that you're right and that book readers would largely benefit from completely separating the books and the show; it's just not always easy. If I were to judge GoT solely on its quality as a show, I would say that it's gone down pretty drastically though.
On May 12 2015 08:17 way2mash4u wrote: Also isn't Davos in White Harbor when Stannis marches on Winterfell?
In the books, not in the show.
On May 12 2015 07:17 Spaylz wrote: Tyrion may also have it. It is stressed that one never knows when greyscale will strike once they have been in contact with Stonemen or infected people. Many Tyrion chapters also have a pretty big emphasis on him checking himself for stiffness and scales.
Mormont getting greyscale does seem to indicate that he might replace Jon Connington, though I'm not quite sure how that would work. Maybe he would be connected back to the Golden Company and (f)Aegon somehow?
@Conti, good points about inner dialogue and TV characters needing a partner. Didn't think of that. I do think that you're right and that book readers would largely benefit from completely separating the books and the show; it's just not always easy. If I were to judge GoT solely on its quality as a show, I would say that it's gone down pretty drastically though.
Griff and Young Griff are likely completely written out of the show, like the Riverlands.
i just realized one of the most meme things hbo could do at this point...it seems clear tormund is never going to start bragging about his dick on the show but they could totally just put a throwaway line in about other wildlings being members of something belonging to tormund i.e. "what about the members of tormund's group?" or "tormund's members still haven't arrived" or something kek
On May 05 2015 02:20 Conti wrote: Of all the criticism of the show I have read in this thread, the whole Barristan thing has to be the silliest by far. No, no one can beat >5 guys with knifes and other weapons attacking him at once. Not even the best fighter in the world. If you believe otherwise, you simply have seen too many action movies where the good guy beats an infinite number of evil guys coming at him one at a time.
It's hilarious that one of the complaints is that Barristan wasn't enough of an 80's action hero.
Don't forget what Barristan said when he was kicked out of the kingsguard. he probably could have killed all 5 of the members there if he wanted.
On May 05 2015 02:20 Conti wrote: Of all the criticism of the show I have read in this thread, the whole Barristan thing has to be the silliest by far. No, no one can beat >5 guys with knifes and other weapons attacking him at once. Not even the best fighter in the world. If you believe otherwise, you simply have seen too many action movies where the good guy beats an infinite number of evil guys coming at him one at a time.
It's hilarious that one of the complaints is that Barristan wasn't enough of an 80's action hero.
Don't forget what Barristan said when he was kicked out of the kingsguard. he probably could have killed all 5 of the members there if he wanted.
Anything short of Barristan going john wick or liam neeson on those harpy chumps was a disappointment. He died a lame death for one of the greatest fighters in the world. Same with the unsullied getting owned like regular punks when I think they said 1 unsullied was worth 10 soliders. It was a bad writing choice that depowered them with how they were portrayed throughout the show and books.
Not sure how they're gonna develop this grayscale for Jorah, but from the season trailer we at least know that he keeps his hand. The predictable course would be Tyrion laying down a knowledge bomb about grayscale and treating him, but nothing's predictable for GoT anymore. Not after Selmy
On May 12 2015 11:29 sumsaR wrote: It's the ninja syndrome. As soon as Grey Worm was alone he was suddenly able to kill several by himself while wounded.
Not sure how they're gonna develop this grayscale for Jorah, but from the season trailer we at least know that he keeps his hand. The predictable course would be Tyrion laying down a knowledge bomb about grayscale and treating him, but nothing's predictable for GoT anymore. Not after Selmy
He is probably going to hide it for as long as he can.
Jeez, reading the Unsullied thread is such a good way to see that Conti is right.
Half of the posts in the last 5 pages are about how the poster thinks the season is boring, and that nothing is happening. And honestly, the show already has had a lot more happen than the books. Going in, we knew that S5 was likely going to be some sort of transitional season to set up for everything going into full motion, but well, they didn't.
And these are TLers; I'd like to think the average poster on TL is relatively smart. So many of them forget events and characters! It's crazy.
EPT
