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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 24 2013 01:11 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:07 Maxyim wrote:On April 23 2013 09:10 Eishi_Ki wrote: An interesting point about Rhaegar though is initially you're brought to believe he is actually a bad guy not unlike his father. His name actually lends itself to this theory too as it sounds bestial, like a tyrants name. You're also brought to believe he kidnapped Lyanna.
However, through descriptions, he has only ever been described as being the perfect king of Westeros; kind, caring, compassionate and despising of war and conflict. Now we as readers don't know per se which version is true not not unlike the subtle hints towards Loras and Renly, having the TV show prove that Rhaegar was all those things would dispel the mystery of him and the ambiguity about his character and relationship with Lyanna.
I love the idea of seeing Robert's Rebellion but some things are better left to your imagination until they are properly dealt with in the books (The Tower of Joy) Er, not sure which books you are reading but Rhaegar was never King of Westeros. Also, considering that Rhaegar was the one who started Robert's Rebellion, I would hardly call him "compassionate and despising of war and conflict." More like "selfish spoiled brat." On April 23 2013 09:46 Irrelevant Label wrote:On April 23 2013 09:23 remedium wrote:I've had this idea in my head since I was first reading the books. It concerns Jon Snow - if you don't want things about him put in your head, don't click it! + Show Spoiler +Jon Snow is actually the bastard child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. EDIT: I can't believe you guys are talking about that scene - I've literally been wishing for it to appear in the show. My favorite part of the books, by far. Seven against three Kingsguard (Sword of the Morning!), and only two of them walk away alive? Paints a pretty good picture of how skilled Lord Stark was with a sword. In related news, + Show Spoiler +Littlefinger might not be the most trustworthy person around. ...Except he almost can't be a bastard because three of the kingsguard wouldn't have been there guarding his mother if he was. To warrant that, and particularly at that point in the war, they more or less had to think he was one of the remaining heirs to the dynasty. Howland is indeed quite competent to have somehow carried Ned's injured ass to victory against the sword of the morning though. Maybe Arthur was already maimed or something. Maybe Howland is a genius with that frog spear. The junk about Howland skinchanging into him and making him lose is wild speculation, there is no reason to give it any credit. It was 3v7. Considering that in real life, you cannot exactly zerg 3 highly competent swordfighters fighting back-to-back, we can expect that each man involved was a fighter of great skill, particularly the two who were able to walk / be carried away. Although I do see how a spear may have been helpful in a 2v1 context. There is a theory, that Reed was actually a powerful warg himself, and the 3 kingsguard would have killed them, beating the odds, we know it came down to 2v1, and Ned injured to make it worse, so some people speculate that Reed tried to take over Dayne's body (like Bran could actually hop into Hodor )and gave Ned the opening to slay him, and he's been severly damaged in the process, that's why we do not see him anymore around, even when his old friend is in dire need, and every lord from the North marches with Robb
I thought he holds the neck with his people defending the north. And they chip away at the Ironborn guerrilla style. Besides that theory has no base besides his son is a warg and Bran can warg a mentally disabled person. Worst: there were no Dragons back then which means this kind of magic was way less effective. All in all only circumstantial speculation.
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On April 24 2013 00:07 Maxyim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 09:10 Eishi_Ki wrote: An interesting point about Rhaegar though is initially you're brought to believe he is actually a bad guy not unlike his father. His name actually lends itself to this theory too as it sounds bestial, like a tyrants name. You're also brought to believe he kidnapped Lyanna.
However, through descriptions, he has only ever been described as being the perfect king of Westeros; kind, caring, compassionate and despising of war and conflict. Now we as readers don't know per se which version is true not not unlike the subtle hints towards Loras and Renly, having the TV show prove that Rhaegar was all those things would dispel the mystery of him and the ambiguity about his character and relationship with Lyanna.
I love the idea of seeing Robert's Rebellion but some things are better left to your imagination until they are properly dealt with in the books (The Tower of Joy) Er, not sure which books you are reading but Rhaegar was never King of Westeros. Also, considering that Rhaegar was the one who started Robert's Rebellion, I would hardly call him "compassionate and despising of war and conflict." More like "selfish spoiled brat." Well a realistic theory is that Great Lord of Westeros were allying themselves behind the scenes against Targaryans. Rhaegar didn't start the war, he only quickened it. Also Rhaegar was following the prophecy that forced him to have a child with Lyanna.
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On April 24 2013 02:07 Doppelganger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 01:11 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 24 2013 00:07 Maxyim wrote:On April 23 2013 09:10 Eishi_Ki wrote: An interesting point about Rhaegar though is initially you're brought to believe he is actually a bad guy not unlike his father. His name actually lends itself to this theory too as it sounds bestial, like a tyrants name. You're also brought to believe he kidnapped Lyanna.
However, through descriptions, he has only ever been described as being the perfect king of Westeros; kind, caring, compassionate and despising of war and conflict. Now we as readers don't know per se which version is true not not unlike the subtle hints towards Loras and Renly, having the TV show prove that Rhaegar was all those things would dispel the mystery of him and the ambiguity about his character and relationship with Lyanna.
I love the idea of seeing Robert's Rebellion but some things are better left to your imagination until they are properly dealt with in the books (The Tower of Joy) Er, not sure which books you are reading but Rhaegar was never King of Westeros. Also, considering that Rhaegar was the one who started Robert's Rebellion, I would hardly call him "compassionate and despising of war and conflict." More like "selfish spoiled brat." On April 23 2013 09:46 Irrelevant Label wrote:On April 23 2013 09:23 remedium wrote:I've had this idea in my head since I was first reading the books. It concerns Jon Snow - if you don't want things about him put in your head, don't click it! + Show Spoiler +Jon Snow is actually the bastard child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. EDIT: I can't believe you guys are talking about that scene - I've literally been wishing for it to appear in the show. My favorite part of the books, by far. Seven against three Kingsguard (Sword of the Morning!), and only two of them walk away alive? Paints a pretty good picture of how skilled Lord Stark was with a sword. In related news, + Show Spoiler +Littlefinger might not be the most trustworthy person around. ...Except he almost can't be a bastard because three of the kingsguard wouldn't have been there guarding his mother if he was. To warrant that, and particularly at that point in the war, they more or less had to think he was one of the remaining heirs to the dynasty. Howland is indeed quite competent to have somehow carried Ned's injured ass to victory against the sword of the morning though. Maybe Arthur was already maimed or something. Maybe Howland is a genius with that frog spear. The junk about Howland skinchanging into him and making him lose is wild speculation, there is no reason to give it any credit. It was 3v7. Considering that in real life, you cannot exactly zerg 3 highly competent swordfighters fighting back-to-back, we can expect that each man involved was a fighter of great skill, particularly the two who were able to walk / be carried away. Although I do see how a spear may have been helpful in a 2v1 context. There is a theory, that Reed was actually a powerful warg himself, and the 3 kingsguard would have killed them, beating the odds, we know it came down to 2v1, and Ned injured to make it worse, so some people speculate that Reed tried to take over Dayne's body (like Bran could actually hop into Hodor )and gave Ned the opening to slay him, and he's been severly damaged in the process, that's why we do not see him anymore around, even when his old friend is in dire need, and every lord from the North marches with Robb I thought he holds the neck with his people defending the north. And they chip away at the Ironborn guerrilla style. Besides that theory has no base besides his son is a warg and Bran can warg a mentally disabled person. Worst: there were no Dragons back then which means this kind of magic was way less effective. All in all only circumstantial speculation. His son is not a warg, he is a greenseer.
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Was it ever explained in the books what Varys heard as a prophecy from the sorcerer ? Could it have something to do with his hidden motives ?
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On April 24 2013 02:18 Marradron wrote: Was it ever explained in the books what Varys heard as a prophecy from the sorcerer ? Could it have something to do with his hidden motives ? There is no sorcerer in the books (well he is mentioned as part of Varys background but that is it). It is speculated that Varys is working with Ilyrio Mopatis to bring Targaryan bastard offshoots to rule the throne.
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On April 24 2013 02:29 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 02:18 Marradron wrote: Was it ever explained in the books what Varys heard as a prophecy from the sorcerer ? Could it have something to do with his hidden motives ? There is no sorcerer in the books (well he is mentioned as part of Varys background but that is it). It is speculated that Varys is working with Ilyrio Mopatis to bring Targaryan bastard offshoots to rule the throne.
I think him getting cut and having it burned did happen in the books. No mentioning of him having heard anything from the fire though AFAIK.
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That why I said it is mentioned as part of his background (but don't remember if Varys tells the story or Ilyrio), but the Sorcerer himself does not appear.
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Varys tells to the story to Tyrion. The sorcerer cut off his testicles and penis and burnt them in a brazier, then asked a question and got an answer in a language Varys did not understand then and does not understand today. It happened in the books too. But Varys never saw the sorcerer again.
Rhaegar was described in the books as more interested in playing music, singing, and reading books until he read something - it is implied that he read the prophecy about the Others and Azor Ahai returning - that caused him to change his life almost entirely by devoting himself to becoming a great knight. It is also implied that he kidnapped - if it even was a kidnapping - Lyanna Stark because Rhaegar believed that he was the father of Azor Ahai reborn (Aegon) and that to fulfill the prophecy "the dragon needed three heads." Those heads being Aegon, his daughter (Rhaenys? Rhaenylla? Can't remember her name), and he saw something in Lyanna that convinced him she needed to to be the mother of the third.
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On April 24 2013 02:36 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 02:29 -Archangel- wrote:On April 24 2013 02:18 Marradron wrote: Was it ever explained in the books what Varys heard as a prophecy from the sorcerer ? Could it have something to do with his hidden motives ? There is no sorcerer in the books (well he is mentioned as part of Varys background but that is it). It is speculated that Varys is working with Ilyrio Mopatis to bring Targaryan bastard offshoots to rule the throne. I think him getting cut and having it burned did happen in the books. No mentioning of him having heard anything from the fire though AFAIK.
I'm pretty sure there was that "voice from fire" scene in the Books... Didn't have the sorcerer appearing in kingslanding though, that was entirely from the show
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I was just wondering if I missed it in the book. Seems like the message may be made important in the show. Or it was just there to make the story more interesting.
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The sorcerer was maybe a Red Priest? I was wondering that when I saw he had the same kind of outfit as Thoros... But it was hard to see clearly and maybe just a generic style of cloth they use in the show.
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The voice that Varys heard was in the book. From ACoK:
For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. “My lord, do you believe in the old powers?”
“Magic, you mean?” Tyrion said impatiently. “Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?” He snorted. “Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?”
“Ser Cortnay had challenged Lord Stannis to single combat on the morning he died. I ask you, is this the act of a man lost to despair? Then there is the matter of Lord Renly’s mysterious and most fortuitous murder, even as his battle lines were forming up to sweep his brother from the field.” The eunuch paused a moment. “My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut.”
“I recall,” said Tyrion. “You did not want to talk of it.”
“Nor do I, but…” This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. “I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King’s Landing.
“One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.
“The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man’s letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.
“Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer’s trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.”
When he was done, they rode in silence for a time. Finally Tyrion said, “A harrowing tale. I’m sorry.”
The eunuch sighed. “You are sorry, but you do not believe me. No, my lord, no need to apologize. I was drugged and in pain and it was a very long time ago and far across the sea. No doubt I dreamed that voice. I’ve told myself as much a thousand times.”
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http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret.
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On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret.
Nice find. I guess that this answers a few questions.
Tyrion and Sansa - Episode 8
Melisandre is not going to be in the Riverlands - probably has something to do with the Three Leeches.
It does seem like they are going to consolidate Edric Storm and Gendry, and why not? The Gendry character didn't exactly get to do a whole lot in the books.
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Zurich15361 Posts
There is lots of information in that actually.
Some things that have been speculated about here before:
306 : Tywin plans strategy for house Lannister (probably announces the Tyrion wedding) 306 : Bolton decides what will happen with Jamie 307 : Shae is pissed off about the Sansa and Tyrion wedding 307 : Brienne fights the bear 308 : Sam and Gilly meet Coldhands
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On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret.
Here's something I don't like about that show. It seems like it confirms what is happening in the later books before they are released. If Gendry finds out now, in the show, that he is the son of Robert, then it means the reveal to him later, in the books, that he is Robert's son, will not play a big part in his character. The fact they're rushing that reveal about his father, shows the timing of it doesn't matter. And if the timing doesn't matter, it must not be that important of a reveal later in the books. Part of me had hoped something would happen with Gendry when he found out he was Robert's bastard. But now it seems it won't be anything important, in the books at least, since they're changing his plot.
Another example, the fact that it appears they're not going to have Willas or Garland Tyrell in the show, makes it seem like the Tyrell character's wont be very important in the next two novels. Because if the Tyrell's were important, then all of their sons would be important, and they wouldn't be able to consolidate three sons into one character in the TV show.
And finally, I'm worried, though I probably shouldn't be, that GRRM will let the last of his novels be influenced by the fact that he knows they're going to be written as TV shows.
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On April 24 2013 14:53 itkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret. Here's something I don't like about that show. It seems like it confirms what is happening in the later books before they are released. If Gendry finds out now, in the show, that he is the son of Robert, then it means the reveal to him later, in the books, that he is Robert's son, will not play a big part in his character. The fact they're rushing that reveal about his father, shows the timing of it doesn't matter. And if the timing doesn't matter, it must not be that important of a reveal later in the books. Part of me had hoped something would happen with Gendry when he found out he was Robert's bastard. But now it seems it won't be anything important, in the books at least, since they're changing his plot. Another example, the fact that it appears they're not going to have Willas or Garland Tyrell in the show, makes it seem like the Tyrell character's wont be very important in the next two novels. Because if the Tyrell's were important, then all of their sons would be important, and they wouldn't be able to consolidate three sons into one character in the TV show. And finally, I'm worried, though I probably shouldn't be, that GRRM will let the last of his novels be influenced by the fact that he knows they're going to be written as TV shows.
David and Dan actually know what happens in the next two unwritten books and I've noticed a few subtle things in the show thus far that foreshadow character arcs and future events (ones that were absent in the books) that pair really well with a lot of what I believe will happen
For the most part it's safe to assume that there will be no influence on G.R.RM. from the television show however like you mention in the first paragraph I think quiet the opposite is happening at the very least, specifically an example of people reading into the show as a means for the book is the dynamic between Sandor/Sansa as opposed to the one in the book. In the books theres a lot of speculation of a romantic relationship where as in the show specifically in the last scene they have together th relationship definitely comes off more as a father/daughter type of thing which really irked a lot of fans because it can be a temporary means of dismissing what they see because David and Dan know something we don't
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On April 24 2013 14:53 itkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret. Here's something I don't like about that show. It seems like it confirms what is happening in the later books before they are released. If Gendry finds out now, in the show, that he is the son of Robert, then it means the reveal to him later, in the books, that he is Robert's son, will not play a big part in his character. The fact they're rushing that reveal about his father, shows the timing of it doesn't matter. And if the timing doesn't matter, it must not be that important of a reveal later in the books. Part of me had hoped something would happen with Gendry when he found out he was Robert's bastard. But now it seems it won't be anything important, in the books at least, since they're changing his plot. Another example, the fact that it appears they're not going to have Willas or Garland Tyrell in the show, makes it seem like the Tyrell character's wont be very important in the next two novels. Because if the Tyrell's were important, then all of their sons would be important, and they wouldn't be able to consolidate three sons into one character in the TV show. And finally, I'm worried, though I probably shouldn't be, that GRRM will let the last of his novels be influenced by the fact that he knows they're going to be written as TV shows.
Why can you say the lack of Willas or Garlan is a negative point? Do you think even more named characters is what the show needs? Willas is absoutely irrelevent and Garlan is completely superflous. Everyone I know that watches the show only know like 5 names, adding more people will only confuse people more.
Gendry becoming something was always wishful thinking
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On April 24 2013 17:16 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 14:53 itkovian wrote:On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret. Here's something I don't like about that show. It seems like it confirms what is happening in the later books before they are released. If Gendry finds out now, in the show, that he is the son of Robert, then it means the reveal to him later, in the books, that he is Robert's son, will not play a big part in his character. The fact they're rushing that reveal about his father, shows the timing of it doesn't matter. And if the timing doesn't matter, it must not be that important of a reveal later in the books. Part of me had hoped something would happen with Gendry when he found out he was Robert's bastard. But now it seems it won't be anything important, in the books at least, since they're changing his plot. Another example, the fact that it appears they're not going to have Willas or Garland Tyrell in the show, makes it seem like the Tyrell character's wont be very important in the next two novels. Because if the Tyrell's were important, then all of their sons would be important, and they wouldn't be able to consolidate three sons into one character in the TV show. And finally, I'm worried, though I probably shouldn't be, that GRRM will let the last of his novels be influenced by the fact that he knows they're going to be written as TV shows. Why can you say the lack of Willas or Garlan is a negative point? Do you think even more named characters is what the show needs? Willas is absoutely irrelevent and Garlan is completely superflous. Everyone I know that watches the show only know like 5 names, adding more people will only confuse people more. Gendry becoming something was always wishful thinking But completely ignoring the requirements of tv-shows and tv-show audiences is what people are all about with this show. That's called illusional elitism.
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On April 24 2013 17:38 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 17:16 Dakkas wrote:On April 24 2013 14:53 itkovian wrote:On April 24 2013 11:07 Cayn wrote:http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/game-thrones-48771.html is a German Website which hase some short summarys of the next episodes and as it seems Gendry will indeed take the Part of Edric Stormborn a bit Translation of the 3x06 part says melissandre is on a meeting in the Riverlands and in 3x07 that she will tell gendry a secret. Here's something I don't like about that show. It seems like it confirms what is happening in the later books before they are released. If Gendry finds out now, in the show, that he is the son of Robert, then it means the reveal to him later, in the books, that he is Robert's son, will not play a big part in his character. The fact they're rushing that reveal about his father, shows the timing of it doesn't matter. And if the timing doesn't matter, it must not be that important of a reveal later in the books. Part of me had hoped something would happen with Gendry when he found out he was Robert's bastard. But now it seems it won't be anything important, in the books at least, since they're changing his plot. Another example, the fact that it appears they're not going to have Willas or Garland Tyrell in the show, makes it seem like the Tyrell character's wont be very important in the next two novels. Because if the Tyrell's were important, then all of their sons would be important, and they wouldn't be able to consolidate three sons into one character in the TV show. And finally, I'm worried, though I probably shouldn't be, that GRRM will let the last of his novels be influenced by the fact that he knows they're going to be written as TV shows. Why can you say the lack of Willas or Garlan is a negative point? Do you think even more named characters is what the show needs? Willas is absoutely irrelevent and Garlan is completely superflous. Everyone I know that watches the show only know like 5 names, adding more people will only confuse people more. Gendry becoming something was always wishful thinking But completely ignoring the requirements of tv-shows and tv-show audiences is what people are all about with this show. That's called illusional elitism.
Strongly worded... but I agree. Books and TV are different media with different narrative requirements.
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