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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On December 08 2016 06:55 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Carl is a different story, but why people like Dwight don't kill Negan isn't much different than why they didn't just always kill their local kings/barons back in feudal times.
As for Carl it's a bit tougher to explain why he didn't kill Negan right away other than he choked at the last minute (wouldn't be the first time) or maybe he realized he wasn't just killing himself and Negan but everyone, most immediately, Daryl.
As for why Negan hasn't killed Carl, seems like they are making Negan want an heir, and he thinks Carl has the potential to be a quality prince. Plus he would get quite the jollies from having Carl be a willing Neganite and leverage that against Rick. But they often killed kings and barons back in feudal times. Perhaps Negan should read some Machiavelli, because you don't stay in power very long by being a straight up sadist unless you have very loyal and powerful people around you. Negan walked in front of Carl's loaded gun with a smile on his face. He abuses his close allies. It just takes one person to decide life is no longer worth living to do an assassination. Like, someone who's tired of living in a constant state of fear, someone who's been defaced... Obviously leading by fear works but if you pull at people's strings eventually it'll break. There's no way his routine is sustainable. The character would be more believable if he was less of a dick to his people. Like, he repeatedly talks about Dwight's wife to him in his face, believing that Dwight is just broken and has fully submitted. He's confident that he can turn Daryl. You can't safely surround yourself with a bunch of Reek's from GoT.
It has to reach a point where they think it would be more beneficial for them to have a dead Negan, as it stands, Dwight has it pretty good (other than the wife thing). He's got food, shelter, TV, and doesn't have to make many decisions. Does anyone really want Negan's job? Does anyone think they can take over control of the group? Would there not be a power struggle? The people with the most to gain from killing Negan (those on the bottom of the pyramid) have the least access and potential to lead and still lose from the group disbanding. Those who actually have chances to kill Negan without immediate retribution have the most to lose, and least to gain.
As for how long you can rule like this, about a decade is where I would put it, or whenever you have people who grew up under the constant state of terror so it doesn't affect them the way it does people who remember a reasonably sane and peaceful society, and older people who essentially see themselves as having nothing to lose. Of course if someone killed Negan before that it wouldn't be much of a surprise, but neither is not killing him imo.
What makes sense to me is that Negan is infertile (several wives but no kids, he's figured out it's him), also the fawning over Judith indicates to me he wants an heir/prince. That's where Carl comes in. If Negan can convince him that his way is better than Rick's way he get's his prince and sticks it to rick at the same time. Naturally it's a double edged sword for Negan, if he convinces Carl, then at some point Carl realizes Negan's old and offs him, or he doesn't convince Carl and he loses his prince.
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On December 08 2016 02:48 Koivusto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2016 19:55 Acrofales wrote:On December 07 2016 19:19 way2mash4u wrote:On December 07 2016 14:53 Djzapz wrote:
At this point I continue to watch this because of some morbid curiosity, not for the content itself but because of the psychology of the thing. It's fascinating to me that people could create such a mess. To be honest, I feel like this since Season 3 or something. Well, looking back, everything except season 1 has been a mix of utter shit filler episodes interspersed with really great episodes. This, exactly this. I myself keep aspiring for those great episodes that one can find every now and then. In this season so far, imo there's been only one of them which was the pilot. But it was a great one. FF, please dude, let us do our thing and complain in peace 
lawl, my bad :D but i'm just complaining about the complainers!
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On December 08 2016 07:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 06:55 Djzapz wrote:On December 08 2016 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Carl is a different story, but why people like Dwight don't kill Negan isn't much different than why they didn't just always kill their local kings/barons back in feudal times.
As for Carl it's a bit tougher to explain why he didn't kill Negan right away other than he choked at the last minute (wouldn't be the first time) or maybe he realized he wasn't just killing himself and Negan but everyone, most immediately, Daryl.
As for why Negan hasn't killed Carl, seems like they are making Negan want an heir, and he thinks Carl has the potential to be a quality prince. Plus he would get quite the jollies from having Carl be a willing Neganite and leverage that against Rick. But they often killed kings and barons back in feudal times. Perhaps Negan should read some Machiavelli, because you don't stay in power very long by being a straight up sadist unless you have very loyal and powerful people around you. Negan walked in front of Carl's loaded gun with a smile on his face. He abuses his close allies. It just takes one person to decide life is no longer worth living to do an assassination. Like, someone who's tired of living in a constant state of fear, someone who's been defaced... Obviously leading by fear works but if you pull at people's strings eventually it'll break. There's no way his routine is sustainable. The character would be more believable if he was less of a dick to his people. Like, he repeatedly talks about Dwight's wife to him in his face, believing that Dwight is just broken and has fully submitted. He's confident that he can turn Daryl. You can't safely surround yourself with a bunch of Reek's from GoT. It has to reach a point where they think it would be more beneficial for them to have a dead Negan, as it stands, Dwight has it pretty good (other than the wife thing). He's got food, shelter, TV, and doesn't have to make many decisions. Does anyone really want Negan's job? Does anyone think they can take over control of the group? Would there not be a power struggle? The people with the most to gain from killing Negan (those on the bottom of the pyramid) have the least access and potential to lead and still lose from the group disbanding. Those who actually have chances to kill Negan without immediate retribution have the most to lose, and least to gain. As for how long you can rule like this, about a decade is where I would put it, or whenever you have people who grew up under the constant state of terror so it doesn't affect them the way it does people who remember a reasonably sane and peaceful society, and older people who essentially see themselves as having nothing to lose. Of course if someone killed Negan before that it wouldn't be much of a surprise, but neither is not killing him imo. What makes sense to me is that Negan is infertile (several wives but no kids, he's figured out it's him), also the fawning over Judith indicates to me he wants an heir/prince. That's where Carl comes in. If Negan can convince him that his way is better than Rick's way he get's his prince and sticks it to rick at the same time. Naturally it's a double edged sword for Negan, if he convinces Carl, then at some point Carl realizes Negan's old and offs him, or he doesn't convince Carl and he loses his prince.
I don't believe the 10 years thing for a second. He has armed people around him who hate him, and while many are terrified of him, like I said he walked in front of a literal smoking gun. The guy has no regard for his own safety. I don't necessarily believe that any of his "lieutenants" would kill him to take his place, those are big shoes to fill and the more loyal ones may not take this too kindly. However, I absolutely believe that a lot of his "subjects" were born and raised in a pre zombie apocalypse America and would die to kill an oppressive leader, at the cost of their lives. Someone would assassinate him sooner rather than later because he doesn't seem to extend safety that well, to be honest.
As for the idea of an heir, Carl is a moron so in the context of the show, maybe he could be turned. But the idea that he'd be the next Negan, after seeing him kill Glenn and the other guy... meh. Seems like a stretch, and it's dumb.
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On December 08 2016 07:54 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 07:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 08 2016 06:55 Djzapz wrote:On December 08 2016 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Carl is a different story, but why people like Dwight don't kill Negan isn't much different than why they didn't just always kill their local kings/barons back in feudal times.
As for Carl it's a bit tougher to explain why he didn't kill Negan right away other than he choked at the last minute (wouldn't be the first time) or maybe he realized he wasn't just killing himself and Negan but everyone, most immediately, Daryl.
As for why Negan hasn't killed Carl, seems like they are making Negan want an heir, and he thinks Carl has the potential to be a quality prince. Plus he would get quite the jollies from having Carl be a willing Neganite and leverage that against Rick. But they often killed kings and barons back in feudal times. Perhaps Negan should read some Machiavelli, because you don't stay in power very long by being a straight up sadist unless you have very loyal and powerful people around you. Negan walked in front of Carl's loaded gun with a smile on his face. He abuses his close allies. It just takes one person to decide life is no longer worth living to do an assassination. Like, someone who's tired of living in a constant state of fear, someone who's been defaced... Obviously leading by fear works but if you pull at people's strings eventually it'll break. There's no way his routine is sustainable. The character would be more believable if he was less of a dick to his people. Like, he repeatedly talks about Dwight's wife to him in his face, believing that Dwight is just broken and has fully submitted. He's confident that he can turn Daryl. You can't safely surround yourself with a bunch of Reek's from GoT. It has to reach a point where they think it would be more beneficial for them to have a dead Negan, as it stands, Dwight has it pretty good (other than the wife thing). He's got food, shelter, TV, and doesn't have to make many decisions. Does anyone really want Negan's job? Does anyone think they can take over control of the group? Would there not be a power struggle? The people with the most to gain from killing Negan (those on the bottom of the pyramid) have the least access and potential to lead and still lose from the group disbanding. Those who actually have chances to kill Negan without immediate retribution have the most to lose, and least to gain. As for how long you can rule like this, about a decade is where I would put it, or whenever you have people who grew up under the constant state of terror so it doesn't affect them the way it does people who remember a reasonably sane and peaceful society, and older people who essentially see themselves as having nothing to lose. Of course if someone killed Negan before that it wouldn't be much of a surprise, but neither is not killing him imo. What makes sense to me is that Negan is infertile (several wives but no kids, he's figured out it's him), also the fawning over Judith indicates to me he wants an heir/prince. That's where Carl comes in. If Negan can convince him that his way is better than Rick's way he get's his prince and sticks it to rick at the same time. Naturally it's a double edged sword for Negan, if he convinces Carl, then at some point Carl realizes Negan's old and offs him, or he doesn't convince Carl and he loses his prince. I don't believe the 10 years thing for a second. He has armed people around him who hate him, and while many are terrified of him, like I said he walked in front of a literal smoking gun. The guy has no regard for his own safety. I don't necessarily believe that any of his "lieutenants" would kill him to take his place, those are big shoes to fill and the more loyal ones may not take this too kindly. However, I absolutely believe that a lot of his "subjects" were born and raised in a pre zombie apocalypse America and would die to kill an oppressive leader, at the cost of their lives. Someone would assassinate him sooner rather than later because he doesn't seem to extend safety that well, to be honest. As for the idea of an heir, Carl is a moron so in the context of the show, maybe he could be turned. But the idea that he'd be the next Negan, after seeing him kill Glenn and the other guy... meh. Seems like a stretch, and it's dumb.
10 years is just a rough guesstimate, like I said, it wouldn't be shocking to happen sooner than that, but it's not really a stretch that it doesn't either. Unless someone thinks they have enough members to turn the group into some Utopian paradise, killing the oppressive leader just means you're replacing him with another oppressive leader and it's not just your life at stake, if you care about anyone there with you you're sacrificing their lives too, since the new leader will have to make an example in order to have any sense of their own security.
Negan doesn't know Carl, all he's really experienced of Carl is telling his dad to saw off his arm, pulling a gun on one of his guys, then somehow sneaking into his compound and taking out a couple of his guys. We know Carl's a total tool, but Negan's only seen "bad ass" Carl, and has recoiled any time he sees any wuss in him. Oh and he thinks the one eye makes him look pretty menacing, so he likes that, clearly Negan's a fan of psychological terror.
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On December 08 2016 08:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 07:54 Djzapz wrote:On December 08 2016 07:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 08 2016 06:55 Djzapz wrote:On December 08 2016 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Carl is a different story, but why people like Dwight don't kill Negan isn't much different than why they didn't just always kill their local kings/barons back in feudal times.
As for Carl it's a bit tougher to explain why he didn't kill Negan right away other than he choked at the last minute (wouldn't be the first time) or maybe he realized he wasn't just killing himself and Negan but everyone, most immediately, Daryl.
As for why Negan hasn't killed Carl, seems like they are making Negan want an heir, and he thinks Carl has the potential to be a quality prince. Plus he would get quite the jollies from having Carl be a willing Neganite and leverage that against Rick. But they often killed kings and barons back in feudal times. Perhaps Negan should read some Machiavelli, because you don't stay in power very long by being a straight up sadist unless you have very loyal and powerful people around you. Negan walked in front of Carl's loaded gun with a smile on his face. He abuses his close allies. It just takes one person to decide life is no longer worth living to do an assassination. Like, someone who's tired of living in a constant state of fear, someone who's been defaced... Obviously leading by fear works but if you pull at people's strings eventually it'll break. There's no way his routine is sustainable. The character would be more believable if he was less of a dick to his people. Like, he repeatedly talks about Dwight's wife to him in his face, believing that Dwight is just broken and has fully submitted. He's confident that he can turn Daryl. You can't safely surround yourself with a bunch of Reek's from GoT. It has to reach a point where they think it would be more beneficial for them to have a dead Negan, as it stands, Dwight has it pretty good (other than the wife thing). He's got food, shelter, TV, and doesn't have to make many decisions. Does anyone really want Negan's job? Does anyone think they can take over control of the group? Would there not be a power struggle? The people with the most to gain from killing Negan (those on the bottom of the pyramid) have the least access and potential to lead and still lose from the group disbanding. Those who actually have chances to kill Negan without immediate retribution have the most to lose, and least to gain. As for how long you can rule like this, about a decade is where I would put it, or whenever you have people who grew up under the constant state of terror so it doesn't affect them the way it does people who remember a reasonably sane and peaceful society, and older people who essentially see themselves as having nothing to lose. Of course if someone killed Negan before that it wouldn't be much of a surprise, but neither is not killing him imo. What makes sense to me is that Negan is infertile (several wives but no kids, he's figured out it's him), also the fawning over Judith indicates to me he wants an heir/prince. That's where Carl comes in. If Negan can convince him that his way is better than Rick's way he get's his prince and sticks it to rick at the same time. Naturally it's a double edged sword for Negan, if he convinces Carl, then at some point Carl realizes Negan's old and offs him, or he doesn't convince Carl and he loses his prince. I don't believe the 10 years thing for a second. He has armed people around him who hate him, and while many are terrified of him, like I said he walked in front of a literal smoking gun. The guy has no regard for his own safety. I don't necessarily believe that any of his "lieutenants" would kill him to take his place, those are big shoes to fill and the more loyal ones may not take this too kindly. However, I absolutely believe that a lot of his "subjects" were born and raised in a pre zombie apocalypse America and would die to kill an oppressive leader, at the cost of their lives. Someone would assassinate him sooner rather than later because he doesn't seem to extend safety that well, to be honest. As for the idea of an heir, Carl is a moron so in the context of the show, maybe he could be turned. But the idea that he'd be the next Negan, after seeing him kill Glenn and the other guy... meh. Seems like a stretch, and it's dumb. 10 years is just a rough guesstimate, like I said, it wouldn't be shocking to happen sooner than that, but it's not really a stretch that it doesn't either. Unless someone thinks they have enough members to turn the group into some Utopian paradise, killing the oppressive leader just means you're replacing him with another oppressive leader and it's not just your life at stake, if you care about anyone there with you you're sacrificing their lives too, since the new leader will have to make an example in order to have any sense of their own security.
There are too many people who'd feel like they have nothing to lose in a situation like this. In understand where you're coming from but in the real world that shit wouldn't fly. And the idea that the oppressive leader would be replaced with a new one may not do much with people's desire to kill Negan, since that future seems remote anyway, especially since an assassination like that would probably be committed out of emotion.
Negan doesn't know Carl, all he's really experienced of Carl is telling his dad to saw off his arm, pulling a gun on one of his guys, then somehow sneaking into his compound and taking out a couple of his guys. We know Carl's a total tool, but Negan's only seen "bad ass" Carl, and has recoiled any time he sees any wuss in him. Oh and he thinks the one eye makes him look pretty menacing, so he likes that, clearly Negan's a fan of psychological terror.
Boring so far... in any political drama, if someone tried to groom someone else for leadership they'd be something underpinning that decision, whether it be loyalty, convenience, shaping alliances and the balance of powers. "This kid's a badass who thoroughly hates me" is just a cheesy supervillain thing to try, can't imagine it'll develop into an interesting plot.
As it stands, Negan could probably hit a few checkboxes of the "top 10 shit dictators do that get em killed" list.
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On December 08 2016 06:55 Djzapz wrote:Like, he repeatedly talks about Dwight's wife to him in his face, believing that Dwight is just broken and has fully submitted.
Book spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Meh, in the comics Dwight's plan all along is to eventually kill Negan, which is still quite stupid because in the interim he does a whole bunch of loyal shit for Negan and has a million opportunities to do what he's always wanted all along when the chapter finally comes. It's kind of like Gin wanting to kill Aizen all that time, but in the process helps Aizen get stronger and stronger without telling anyone.
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What was Carl's plan anyway? He got into the truck knowing it would take him into the middle of Negan's camp without any chance of escaping. That only makes sense if he wanted to kill Negan even at the cost of his own life. Except when the time came and he had his chance, he did nothing and got captured. As always in The Walking Dead: stupid characters doing irrational things in order to further the plot.
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On December 09 2016 01:10 Scorch wrote:
What was Carl's plan anyway? He got into the truck knowing it would take him into the middle of Negan's camp without any chance of escaping. That only makes sense if he wanted to kill Negan even at the cost of his own life. Except when the time came and he had his chance, he did nothing and got captured. As always in The Walking Dead: stupid characters doing irrational things in order to further the plot.
Yeah, that really pissed me off. If carl would have gotten to threat Negan without killing one of Negans men first, it might have made sense that he did not shoot him (hesitating to kill humans etc.). But he already offed one man, and he had a clear shot on Negan, and was expecting to die either way. Does not compute.
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On December 09 2016 02:15 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 01:10 Scorch wrote:
What was Carl's plan anyway? He got into the truck knowing it would take him into the middle of Negan's camp without any chance of escaping. That only makes sense if he wanted to kill Negan even at the cost of his own life. Except when the time came and he had his chance, he did nothing and got captured. As always in The Walking Dead: stupid characters doing irrational things in order to further the plot. Yeah, that really pissed me off. If carl would have gotten to threat Negan without killing one of Negans men first, it might have made sense that he did not shoot him (hesitating to kill humans etc.). But he already offed one man, and he had a clear shot on Negan, and was expecting to die either way. Does not compute.
Let's write an angry letter for AMC?
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On December 09 2016 03:43 Koivusto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 02:15 phagga wrote:On December 09 2016 01:10 Scorch wrote:
What was Carl's plan anyway? He got into the truck knowing it would take him into the middle of Negan's camp without any chance of escaping. That only makes sense if he wanted to kill Negan even at the cost of his own life. Except when the time came and he had his chance, he did nothing and got captured. As always in The Walking Dead: stupid characters doing irrational things in order to further the plot. Yeah, that really pissed me off. If carl would have gotten to threat Negan without killing one of Negans men first, it might have made sense that he did not shoot him (hesitating to kill humans etc.). But he already offed one man, and he had a clear shot on Negan, and was expecting to die either way. Does not compute. Let's write an angry letter for AMC?
What would the content of the angry letter be? "Write good stories"?
They're just not going to.
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The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
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On December 09 2016 10:08 Case123 wrote:
The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
I don't feel like living anymore.
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On December 09 2016 10:08 Case123 wrote:
The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
Sounds like Rick's group should just wear underpants on their heads and sing "Mary had a Little Lamb," it would make all Negan's people question reality and hesitate making them easier to gun down.
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On December 09 2016 10:08 Case123 wrote:
The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
Before publishing such an embarrassingly poor reasoning, they should've just admitted they needed Carl to get captured for the plot and couldn't think of a better solution. That would be equally stupid and unsatisfying, but more honest.
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On December 09 2016 10:08 Case123 wrote:
The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
For real? lol
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On December 09 2016 10:08 Case123 wrote:
The writers explained that the reason Carl didn't shoot Negan on site was because Negan was whistling when he entered, which is a deliberate psychological trick because in the zombie world, no-one is cheerful enough to whistle, so it made him question his reality and hesitate. This is later re-emphasized when Negan forces Carl to sing you are my sunshine, which further makes Carl question his own sanity as music and post apocalypse world simply does not compute in his brain.
Meh.
Please tell me you made this up, they can't think we are that stupid.
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wow they killed rosita as a character
not that she had much substance in the first place but she was not realistic at all in this episode to the point that it bothered me a lot.
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Oh hey the one person who tries to shoot Negan conveniently accidentally hits the baseball bat, therefore no-one ever is going to try and shoot Negan again in the future despite the multiple opportunities! How convenient!
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An alright episode. With several, as usual, plot holes/conveniences. Negan knowing it was a homemade bullet. The reunion at Hilltop having a happy atmosphere even though two of their members are dead and Eugene kidnapped. Also no reaction form Tara or Rosita.
Also given the history of the writers I'm betting the boots belong to a person from Oceanside.
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On December 13 2016 05:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
An alright episode. With several, as usual, plot holes/conveniences. Negan knowing it was a homemade bullet. The reunion at Hilltop having a happy atmosphere even though two of their members are dead and Eugene kidnapped. Also no reaction form Tara or Rosita.
Also given the history of the writers I'm betting the boots belong to a person from Oceanside.
Yeah, I was like wtf, when they were reuniting in Hilltop, two people dead and one kidnapped is not enough to have them sad, horrible scene.
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EPT
