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On April 29 2016 06:50 uriel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:48 Kuroeeah wrote:On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? how is she playable as a right clicker when there are much better alternatives? even if you were to get the most insane items for mirana, she's only good if you're 1 1/2 items ahead of the enemy carry. Is this thread the real life? Na'vi JUST played and won with a carry Mirana like five hours ago or something. Literally. The hero's been out of favor recently but carry Mirana was not uncommon a couple years back. Have you guys been playing Dota for like 3 days or something
It is possible to win with a lot of heroes as cores. But "possible" doesn't mean "amazing". There were a lot of shitty heroes now that were cores then. And a lot of cores that are supports now.
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On April 29 2016 06:50 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:43 Azarkon wrote:
Problems playing around Bulba might be why PPD keeps using Fear this way. Otherwise I don't understand why you don't just pick a support for Fear and have him help Bulba get farm. Instead they leave Bulba to himself and then play around Fear. I get the feeling that Enigma is one of those picks that's scrimmed among the top teams and works online & in scrims because the reaction times are just slightly slower. (Both from the lack of competitive nature & lag) Those very tiny differences are all it takes to turn a fight with Black Hole. That, and they're probably most practiced playing that way coming in, so they're running strategies they're comfortable with. It's new roster, Day 1 EG, new patch and Bo1. I think we actually should be surprised how well it went, given EG's general history, lol. Still, I look forward to the games tomorrow. MVP.P vs Na'Vi should be nuts.
I get the same idea. All three top Western teams using it even though it loses them games, that has to be due to it working in practice. But now, I hope, they'll understand it doesn't work as well in tournaments, and stop using it every game.
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On April 29 2016 06:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On April 29 2016 06:46 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? I never said it was not possible. I only said that many, many, many other heroes do it better. That build would have been fine if the team had more damage to back it up. Yes, but then again, given that they were not going to have a support in middle, while MVP can easily have one middle, which other hero would not get shut down? That part is hard and the real limiting part of enigma drafts I think. You risk sacking 2 lanes.
Mirana won mid handily and led the team in net worth pretty much for the entire game until the buyback, when they already lost. If you want to say sumail was "shut down", his build did it for him, not the Enigma.
The risk of "sacking two lanes" comes with the benefit of possibly "winning 4 lanes" if you don't fall too far behind and get to abuse the jungle with the fastest jungler in the game. This was in fact what TI4 EG (and TI5 secret) abused over and over. Zai's Enigma was a must-ban, if you recall. Of course the meta has moved on, but the idea has not changed. The problem with this draft was that they had no follow up to the Enigma, whether because of misplays in the lane or poor strategic decisions as the game went on.
I sympathize with Azarkon's need to rationalize EG's defeat in any possible way other than "they fucked up" but he really needs to do a better job of it.
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On April 29 2016 06:47 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:42 Faruko wrote:On April 29 2016 06:28 Danzo wrote:On April 29 2016 06:25 Shaella wrote:
Bloodthorne is broken i'm calling it
Crits on every hit is icefraud crazy? The CD is way too short imo. it also cost 7.3k gold it amplfifes damage x1.3+ for EVERYONE attacking the target. it's as OP as it gets, really.
its also purgeable by quite a few items that are half its cost, so against competent opponents in a teamfight, it should get dispelled.
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On April 29 2016 06:57 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:47 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Faruko wrote:On April 29 2016 06:28 Danzo wrote:On April 29 2016 06:25 Shaella wrote:
Bloodthorne is broken i'm calling it
Crits on every hit is icefraud crazy? The CD is way too short imo. it also cost 7.3k gold it amplfifes damage x1.3+ for EVERYONE attacking the target. it's as OP as it gets, really. its also purgeable by quite a few items that are half its cost, so against competent opponents in a teamfight, it should get dispelled.
Most Orchid builders (NP, QoP, Clinkz) will more or less rush down 20-25min timing in 80%+ games, so in most cases target dies so fast dispell can't save her. It's also true for a late game.
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On April 29 2016 06:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:50 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:48 Kuroeeah wrote:On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? how is she playable as a right clicker when there are much better alternatives? even if you were to get the most insane items for mirana, she's only good if you're 1 1/2 items ahead of the enemy carry. Is this thread the real life? Na'vi JUST played and won with a carry Mirana like five hours ago or something. Literally. The hero's been out of favor recently but carry Mirana was not uncommon a couple years back. Have you guys been playing Dota for like 3 days or something It is possible to win with a lot of heroes as cores. But "possible" doesn't mean "amazing". There were a lot of shitty heroes now that were cores then. And a lot of cores that are supports now.
right-click mirana is super situational, but it's not remotely close to right-click puck
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By the time you have bloodshit most carries have bkb so they can purge the silence, also teams would prepare for it and the heroes that can purge it (bkb-less) by that moment they woud die with orchid already
the cd its great tho
it may end up being OP, but im not sure, its a 7k item, its not cheap, it better be worth it
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On April 29 2016 06:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:50 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:48 Kuroeeah wrote:On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? how is she playable as a right clicker when there are much better alternatives? even if you were to get the most insane items for mirana, she's only good if you're 1 1/2 items ahead of the enemy carry. Is this thread the real life? Na'vi JUST played and won with a carry Mirana like five hours ago or something. Literally. The hero's been out of favor recently but carry Mirana was not uncommon a couple years back. Have you guys been playing Dota for like 3 days or something It is possible to win with a lot of heroes as cores. But "possible" doesn't mean "amazing". There were a lot of shitty heroes now that were cores then. And a lot of cores that are supports now.
You (and that other guy) are really missing the point here. At no point did I say "Mirana is TEh AWSUm DPS pEWPEWPEW TIER ONE CARRY". I did say she isn't awful at it, which is simply true. My point was just to propose that if Sumail had been going "normally" for the dps-style core Mirana (which is totally a thing and I'm not even going to bother digging up games or stats or whatever to support that) then he would
1. Probably have gotten the kill on the Ember when he got the solo 5 second arrow
2. Probably have won EG that fight with the 4-man black hole
3. Probably not be completely useless like he was
Seriously reading is not hard
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But as much as we hate on PPD's strategy...
Have Koreans even lost with this strategy yet? I don't think they have.
Teams simply need to understand it and learn it. It's a strategy that has taken too many games.
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Most solo-mid Miranas are farming ones though..
@Azarkon, ppd's draft was alright. But fucking Aui went Linkens first (against QoP, Bristle and WD, lol) and fucking Bulba was simply the worst player on a server. He is undecisive as fuck and roared the wrong targets 80%+ of the time.
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On April 29 2016 06:47 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:42 Faruko wrote:On April 29 2016 06:28 Danzo wrote:On April 29 2016 06:25 Shaella wrote:
Bloodthorne is broken i'm calling it
Crits on every hit is icefraud crazy? The CD is way too short imo. it also cost 7.3k gold it amplfifes damage x1.3+ for EVERYONE attacking the target. it's as OP as it gets, really.
Bkb, Manta, Euls, all remove the silence, crits and are all much cheaper.
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On April 29 2016 06:48 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? how is she playable as a right clicker when there are much better alternatives? even if you were to get the most insane items for mirana, she's only good if you're 1 1/2 items ahead of the enemy carry.
She needs items, but she has good agi growth and can be a perfectly good right clicker with DPS items. I remember Loda's Mirana out carrying Envy's Luna during the infamous Arteezy Ember game.
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On April 29 2016 07:12 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:47 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Faruko wrote:On April 29 2016 06:28 Danzo wrote:On April 29 2016 06:25 Shaella wrote:
Bloodthorne is broken i'm calling it
Crits on every hit is icefraud crazy? The CD is way too short imo. it also cost 7.3k gold it amplfifes damage x1.3+ for EVERYONE attacking the target. it's as OP as it gets, really. Bkb, Manta, Euls, all remove the silence, crits and are all much cheaper.
It's a 7k item that can't really be rushed (because it offers zero survivability and is generally built on already squishy heroes), and has multiple counterplays by cheaper items as you mentioned. The effect is strong but it better be for 7k.
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On April 29 2016 07:10 Azarkon wrote:
But as much as we hate on PPD's strategy...
Have Koreans even lost with this strategy yet? I don't think they have.
Teams simply need to understand it and learn it. It's a strategy that has taken too many games.
Since they've gotten good, almost no one doesn't ban Wisp against them. When they try to run 3 full cores, though, it's tended to go badly. Wisp being the only true "defensive" support to really do well in 6.86 has a lot to do with that.
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On April 29 2016 07:13 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 06:48 Kuroeeah wrote:On April 29 2016 06:44 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:42 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:41 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:39 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2016 06:38 uriel- wrote:On April 29 2016 06:35 Dysisa wrote:
Genuine question; did Suma1l hit a single arrow today? On an enemy hero? He did, he landed a perfect max-range arrow on an ember farming bottom solo but couldn't kill him because he did NO DAMAGE That hero is terrible at right clicking, so its understandable. The problem is the rest of that draft was terrible at it as well. Mirana is pretty alright at right clicking if she doesn't go Midas Aghs Blink tbh I guess they didn't expect Weaver to have that slow a start but still. By all right, you mean, "they would be better drafting any other hero on the planet to right click things as a mid." She is like Puck level of right click potential. Sure, it can happen, but WHY????? ? Mirana has been playable as a right click dps since the beginning of time, how is she comparable to puck? We talking about the same hero here? how is she playable as a right clicker when there are much better alternatives? even if you were to get the most insane items for mirana, she's only good if you're 1 1/2 items ahead of the enemy carry. She needs items, but she has good agi growth and can be a perfectly good right clicker with DPS items. I remember Loda's Mirana out carrying Envy's Luna during the infamous Arteezy Ember game.
My argument here is that if a core mirana is on equal farm against almost any other core than mirana would struggle. building defensive items is a lot more awkward for mirana than most carries so she has to be ahead significantly for her to actually fight well. sumail was being ran down by MVP's heroes more than Aui's weaver that game, so blaming the game on Sumail's build seems completely silly to me. Ember was a non-factor the entire game and there was just no way sumail could do anything to a bristle.
no team picks mirana core with the intention of staying even, there are better options in place for that. eg wanted to be ahead by the mid game but at that point, aui gave away some avoidable deaths and MVP had already gained traction.
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Which carry even does well against Bristleback with Wisp support? They might need to bring back Ancient Apparition against this strategy.
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WR with mjollnir ? i mean, the lighting maybe useful to bypass bristel tankyness and do damage to the wisp too
but im not sure tho
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Maybe Elder Titan? Always feel that hero needs to come back.
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Timbersaw?
Or if you manage to have a strong enough safelane to actually shut them down and then you also manage to stop them from doing ancients the combo is rather screwed. Often times it's already too late when it's barely over 10 minutes in game time when the Bristle has farmed a bunch in lane and has taken a big ancient stack.
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EPT
