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On April 25 2016 12:28 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:00 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 11:53 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:
[quote]Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play.
I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand that scene more than you do, given your attitude towards the game ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a given day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the surface would say. + Show Spoiler +At last, we have top Western teams in an international tournament. + Show Spoiler +Top Western teams are a different class. + Show Spoiler +I am pretty sure now that VGR was able to win the last tournament only because Natus Vincere was the best team there. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. + Show Spoiler +We'll see whether Fnatic can stand alone. + Show Spoiler +Top Western team wins in the end. + Show Spoiler +Second day: Western teams win everything. + Show Spoiler +You'll see that both of the Western teams used a lot of the same heroes. It's obvious Western strategy > Asian strategy. + Show Spoiler +I still think a Western team is going to win, but Fnatic is the closest they've ever been to a win. The problem is, I think Fnatic's carry is not a top carry, and they've been able to win games with the other four, rather than because of him. + Show Spoiler +China is back to being on top of Southeast Asia, I suppose. That's a start. Of course they're still below top Western teams, as you have seen and as you will see. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. So what? I'm wrong for one or two tournaments in a year. As I said before, I'd say I'm right about 70%. Considering Chinese teams rarely comprise more than 30% of all participating teams in a tournament (usually less), having even a 70% 'correct' prediction rate in saying "West will win" is not exactly spectacular. If you had predicted at least one of Chinese tournament wins, you could try to construct an argument for having some kind of insight into the game or whatever. As it stands though, you're not showing any insight or knowledge at all, you're merely repeating the same old broken record. China has actually performed better than than they should by the numbers if you look at overall results between TI5 and now. It's not as if 'West wins!' means anything if in a tournament with 16 teams, the 2 present Chinese teams take places anywhere in top 5 or so. In the 11 Premier tournaments since TI5 that featured any Chinese presence at all, China has won 3, took 2nd place in another 2, and further 11 places within top 4 of said tournaments. You could make an argument for China not having a single consistently good team comparable to EG or Secret of the West (and you'd probably be right), but your claims of Chinese region as a whole being weak are not only retarded but also completely and utterly disproved by simple stats. The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is largely irrelevant to the results. Korean teams, for example, have never been more than 20% of the teams in any League of Legends tournament, but have won 90% of them. America sends even less teams than China to Dota tournaments, but has had higher results than them for much of the past year. Southeast Asia has been sending teams to large international Dota tournaments for the past three years, yet has lost practically every single one until a Korean team came around. Chinese teams made up 30% of the teams in Shanghai but 0% of teams above eight. You want to use such arguments? Then get them right, and once you do, you'll begin to see what I see. China could've sent eight teams to Shanghai and they'd have all placed below the Western teams there.
How are any of your examples in any way relevant? What do Korean teams of League of Legends have to do with DotA?
The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is actually very much relevant to the results and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. It rarely determines the winner, but, as an extreme example, having top3 comprise of Chinese teams only in a 16 team tournament is far more significant than having top3 comprise of non-Chinese teams only in the same tournament. How isn't that obvious to you is beyond me.
Ignoring the Shanghai major, the overall tally for games between Chinese & non-Chinese teams in bracket stages of premier tournaments since TI5 is 61-52 in favor of China. The 'ratio' is pretty much the same if you do count the group stage games as well. There is literally zero evidence anywhere towards Chinese teams being 'weaker' than non-Chinese teams as a whole.
And let me repeat this one more time. "Predicting" an entire region to win or lose says nothing of insight or knowledge. Until you make some coherent arguments as to why specific teams / strategies / lineups might win or lose, you're literally tossing a coin and saying, 'gotcha!' every time it lands as tails.
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On April 25 2016 12:47 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 12:28 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:00 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 11:53 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it.
I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand that scene more than you do, given your attitude towards the game ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a given day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the surface would say. + Show Spoiler +At last, we have top Western teams in an international tournament. + Show Spoiler +Top Western teams are a different class. + Show Spoiler +I am pretty sure now that VGR was able to win the last tournament only because Natus Vincere was the best team there. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. + Show Spoiler +We'll see whether Fnatic can stand alone. + Show Spoiler +Top Western team wins in the end. + Show Spoiler +Second day: Western teams win everything. + Show Spoiler +You'll see that both of the Western teams used a lot of the same heroes. It's obvious Western strategy > Asian strategy. + Show Spoiler +I still think a Western team is going to win, but Fnatic is the closest they've ever been to a win. The problem is, I think Fnatic's carry is not a top carry, and they've been able to win games with the other four, rather than because of him. + Show Spoiler +China is back to being on top of Southeast Asia, I suppose. That's a start. Of course they're still below top Western teams, as you have seen and as you will see. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. So what? I'm wrong for one or two tournaments in a year. As I said before, I'd say I'm right about 70%. Considering Chinese teams rarely comprise more than 30% of all participating teams in a tournament (usually less), having even a 70% 'correct' prediction rate in saying "West will win" is not exactly spectacular. If you had predicted at least one of Chinese tournament wins, you could try to construct an argument for having some kind of insight into the game or whatever. As it stands though, you're not showing any insight or knowledge at all, you're merely repeating the same old broken record. China has actually performed better than than they should by the numbers if you look at overall results between TI5 and now. It's not as if 'West wins!' means anything if in a tournament with 16 teams, the 2 present Chinese teams take places anywhere in top 5 or so. In the 11 Premier tournaments since TI5 that featured any Chinese presence at all, China has won 3, took 2nd place in another 2, and further 11 places within top 4 of said tournaments. You could make an argument for China not having a single consistently good team comparable to EG or Secret of the West (and you'd probably be right), but your claims of Chinese region as a whole being weak are not only retarded but also completely and utterly disproved by simple stats. The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is largely irrelevant to the results. Korean teams, for example, have never been more than 20% of the teams in any League of Legends tournament, but have won 90% of them. America sends even less teams than China to Dota tournaments, but has had higher results than them for much of the past year. Southeast Asia has been sending teams to large international Dota tournaments for the past three years, yet has lost practically every single one until a Korean team came around. Chinese teams made up 30% of the teams in Shanghai but 0% of teams above eight. You want to use such arguments? Then get them right, and once you do, you'll begin to see what I see. China could've sent eight teams to Shanghai and they'd have all placed below the Western teams there. How are any of your examples in any way relevant? What do Korean teams of League of Legends have to do with DotA? The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is actually very much relevant to the results and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. It rarely determines the winner, but, as an extreme example, having top3 comprise of Chinese teams only in a 16 team tournament is far more significant than having top3 comprise of non-Chinese teams only in the same tournament. How isn't that obvious to you is beyond me. Ignoring the Shanghai major, the overall tally for games between Chinese & non-Chinese teams in bracket stages of premier tournaments since TI5 is 61-52 in favor of China. The 'ratio' is pretty much the same if you do count the group stage games as well. There is literally zero evidence anywhere towards Chinese teams being 'weaker' than non-Chinese teams as a whole.
Dota isn't any more random than League of Legends, so why wouldn't the ability of one region to win tournaments be similar in both games? Had Korea been in Dota to the same degree that they are in League of Legends, people would talk about Koreans winning everything. But that is only a more obvious case of it. In Dota, because there is no Korea, the effects are less obvious and harder for the average person to see. But they're still there and they can still be seen by people who look.
And again, while I wouldn't say that the amount of teams from a region has no effect, regions in Dota only have a few top teams, and it doesn't matter how many Team Archons you send to a tournament, they'll all lose because they're bad. So say we run an American tournament and invite 15 Team Archons and 1 top Chinese team. Would it make it any more significant that they win the tournament? No, because Dota isn't random. The amount of bad teams in a tournament doesn't make it difficult. The amount of top teams in a tournament does.
As for not including Shanghai, why would you do that? Shanghai was the most important tournament in the last three months. Rather than act as though the last four tournaments show that "China is back," you ought to look at the obvious difference between what Chinese teams are doing now, against what they were doing before and around the time of Shanghai.
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And let me repeat this one more time. "Predicting" an entire region to win or lose says nothing of insight or knowledge. Until you make some coherent arguments as to why specific teams / strategies / lineups might win or lose, you're literally tossing a coin and saying, 'gotcha!' every time it lands as tails.
I do just that. I have never said Chinese teams are bad without saying why they are bad. I make plenty of arguments about strategy and pick, but I also look beyond strategy and pick, because those change every tournament, and are therefore a lot less important than what doesn't - how teams practice, how they develop new players, how hard their players work, etc.
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On April 25 2016 13:18 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +
And let me repeat this one more time. "Predicting" an entire region to win or lose says nothing of insight or knowledge. Until you make some coherent arguments as to why specific teams / strategies / lineups might win or lose, you're literally tossing a coin and saying, 'gotcha!' every time it lands as tails.
I do just that. I have never said Chinese teams are bad without saying why they are bad. I make plenty of arguments about strategy and pick, but I also look beyond strategy and pick, because those change every tournament, and are therefore a lot less important than what doesn't - how teams practice, how they develop new players, how hard their players work, etc.
So please make a detail prediction for the next Major , not only CN but the entire thing , i would like to read it and follow up on it , should be fun as the staff usually does the same , lets see your insight powers  , i think you could do well , but i won't be surprised to see you fall on your ass.
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I'll remember to prompt him to make predictions.
Arguments rarely gets anywhere but a prediction with properly weighted metrics might just work. It's the only way of validation of science and reasonable trends from superstition
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Azarkon is blantantly a Racist and should be banned from every Forum.
Period.
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On April 24 2016 22:58 Azarkon wrote:
Many teams win because they were the first team to find out the strategy for a tournament. Koreans did it, Miracle's team did it, VGR did it, and now another team has done it. It is what it is.
Late to the party, but this comment has been bugging me. Wings didn't pull an OG or VG.R or [A]
Wings basically pulled an EG ti5 or Newbee ti4. Countering a team that rode the new meta to the finals with nothing else prepared.
Not easy to pull off at all.
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On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai.
Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year.
And two, I just laughed at you saying I understand both games more then you do.
A. You've probably never made it past 4k let alone to 5k, or even anywhere close to 6k mmr, especially considering that years ago you were busy getting banned from TDA games for going AFK and giving up in a game. People don't suddenly change their colors too; I'd suspect you're probably the same today.
http://da-archive.com/index.php?showtopic=26275
B. You've already stated that you have no idea how League of Legends meta play even works, as you don't even play the game, nor do you even follow that scene very much.
You've been banned multiple times for the stupid shit you say; Na'vi saving strats/throwing on purpose, talking shit about Chinese LoL teams, going way off topic just to push your agenda/bias in threads that have nothing to do with West/East teams, etc. not to mention the plethora of times people mock you for your statements every single thread. You're ignorant, you don't play either DotA or League at a high level, and you're straight up annoying. Half the shit you throw out there has little to no actual content, and you spew it out more then a fatass that has profuse diarrhea with a failing sphincter.
User was warned for this post
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On April 25 2016 13:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 12:47 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:28 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:00 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 11:53 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:
[quote]They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still.
Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side?
This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand that scene more than you do, given your attitude towards the game ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a given day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the surface would say. + Show Spoiler +At last, we have top Western teams in an international tournament. + Show Spoiler +Top Western teams are a different class. + Show Spoiler +I am pretty sure now that VGR was able to win the last tournament only because Natus Vincere was the best team there. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. + Show Spoiler +We'll see whether Fnatic can stand alone. + Show Spoiler +Top Western team wins in the end. + Show Spoiler +Second day: Western teams win everything. + Show Spoiler +You'll see that both of the Western teams used a lot of the same heroes. It's obvious Western strategy > Asian strategy. + Show Spoiler +I still think a Western team is going to win, but Fnatic is the closest they've ever been to a win. The problem is, I think Fnatic's carry is not a top carry, and they've been able to win games with the other four, rather than because of him. + Show Spoiler +China is back to being on top of Southeast Asia, I suppose. That's a start. Of course they're still below top Western teams, as you have seen and as you will see. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. So what? I'm wrong for one or two tournaments in a year. As I said before, I'd say I'm right about 70%. Considering Chinese teams rarely comprise more than 30% of all participating teams in a tournament (usually less), having even a 70% 'correct' prediction rate in saying "West will win" is not exactly spectacular. If you had predicted at least one of Chinese tournament wins, you could try to construct an argument for having some kind of insight into the game or whatever. As it stands though, you're not showing any insight or knowledge at all, you're merely repeating the same old broken record. China has actually performed better than than they should by the numbers if you look at overall results between TI5 and now. It's not as if 'West wins!' means anything if in a tournament with 16 teams, the 2 present Chinese teams take places anywhere in top 5 or so. In the 11 Premier tournaments since TI5 that featured any Chinese presence at all, China has won 3, took 2nd place in another 2, and further 11 places within top 4 of said tournaments. You could make an argument for China not having a single consistently good team comparable to EG or Secret of the West (and you'd probably be right), but your claims of Chinese region as a whole being weak are not only retarded but also completely and utterly disproved by simple stats. The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is largely irrelevant to the results. Korean teams, for example, have never been more than 20% of the teams in any League of Legends tournament, but have won 90% of them. America sends even less teams than China to Dota tournaments, but has had higher results than them for much of the past year. Southeast Asia has been sending teams to large international Dota tournaments for the past three years, yet has lost practically every single one until a Korean team came around. Chinese teams made up 30% of the teams in Shanghai but 0% of teams above eight. You want to use such arguments? Then get them right, and once you do, you'll begin to see what I see. China could've sent eight teams to Shanghai and they'd have all placed below the Western teams there. How are any of your examples in any way relevant? What do Korean teams of League of Legends have to do with DotA? The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is actually very much relevant to the results and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. It rarely determines the winner, but, as an extreme example, having top3 comprise of Chinese teams only in a 16 team tournament is far more significant than having top3 comprise of non-Chinese teams only in the same tournament. How isn't that obvious to you is beyond me. Ignoring the Shanghai major, the overall tally for games between Chinese & non-Chinese teams in bracket stages of premier tournaments since TI5 is 61-52 in favor of China. The 'ratio' is pretty much the same if you do count the group stage games as well. There is literally zero evidence anywhere towards Chinese teams being 'weaker' than non-Chinese teams as a whole. Dota isn't any more random than League of Legends, so why wouldn't the ability of one region to win tournaments be similar in both games? Had Korea been in Dota to the same degree that they are in League of Legends, people would talk about Koreans winning everything. But that is only a more obvious case of it. In Dota, because there is no Korea, the effects are less obvious and harder for the average person to see. But they're still there and they can still be seen by people who look. And again, while I wouldn't say that the amount of teams from a region has no effect, regions in Dota only have a few top teams, and it doesn't matter how many Team Archons you send to a tournament, they'll all lose because they're bad. So say we run an American tournament and invite 15 Team Archons and 1 top Chinese team. Would it make it any more significant that they win the tournament? No, because Dota isn't random. The amount of bad teams in a tournament doesn't make it difficult. The amount of top teams in a tournament does. As for not including Shanghai, why would you do that? Shanghai was the most important tournament in the last three months. Rather than act as though the last four tournaments show that "China is back," you ought to look at the obvious difference between what Chinese teams are doing now, against what they were doing before and around the time of Shanghai.
I'm just going to ignore you ranting about the relation between LoL and DotA as its utterly pointless. As for the rest of it... regions in DotA have more than 'a few' top teams, which is why out of 13 premier events following TI5, 10 different teams won them. There are only 2 teams with multiple premier tournament wins in this time frame, and both of them seem to be falling off quite hard right now as well. The top 4 placements in all of those tournaments while often featuring many 'familiar' faces are also quite a mixed bag. Most recent tournaments were won by teams very few predicted would do well, nevermind win them entirely; many times the obvious favorites were eliminated by teams no one expects to do well. Your argument about 15 team archons has no merit whatsoever because just about any top20 European or top10 Chinese team can take out EG or Team Secret or whatever on a good day, as proven by MVP, Na'Vi, Team Empire, etc etc in the recent months.
The reason I didn't include Shanghai is because it was a clear aberration in terms of Chinese results; it is completely inconsistent with the rest of tournaments around this time period and while somewhat silly, the excuse about Lunar New Years might actually hold more weight than we think it does. At any rate, the Chinese only lost a few games in the bracket stage there as they all got eliminated in bo1s straight away so even with it included overall count wouldn't look much different. China vs 'the world' still has a higher than 50% winrate, even if you exclude obvious bad teams like Archon or Complexity or whatever they still have a ~50% or better win ratio against 'top western teams' so your arguments about China being 'terrible' are dogshit but it's not like we didn't know this already so please just stop posting your crap until you come up with something of substance already
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On April 25 2016 20:16 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai. Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year.
eh i disagree both vg and newbee were strong contenders for best team of 2014 as a whole.
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Oh god, what a tournament and event this been.
I love esl manila
God damn, I'll be posting a blog images tomorrow. Just go back from a long flight xD
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On April 25 2016 21:43 shad2810 wrote:
Oh god, what a tournament and event this been.
I love esl manila
God damn, I'll be posting a blog images tomorrow. Just go back from a long flight xD
dude, since when did u changed flair? did u stopped supporting fnatic? missed ya for this tourney..do share your experience
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On April 25 2016 21:49 Kamisamanachi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 21:43 shad2810 wrote:
Oh god, what a tournament and event this been.
I love esl manila
God damn, I'll be posting a blog images tomorrow. Just go back from a long flight xD dude, since when did u changed flair? did u stopped supporting fnatic? missed ya for this tourney..do share your experience
It was supposingly just for a week when the roster was announce xD.Thought i changed it when the roster change was lock lol
I'm still a fnatic fan through and through.
I even took the same plane as them on the way home :D ~!
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On April 25 2016 21:49 Kamisamanachi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 21:43 shad2810 wrote:
Oh god, what a tournament and event this been.
I love esl manila
God damn, I'll be posting a blog images tomorrow. Just go back from a long flight xD dude, since when did u changed flair? did u stopped supporting fnatic? missed ya for this tourney..do share your experience
I was in the Upper box, where were you?
I couldn't connect to liquiddota for some reason in the phillipines. How did you guys do it
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On April 25 2016 21:10 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 20:16 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai. Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year. eh i disagree both vg and newbee were strong contenders for best team of 2014 as a whole.
Newbee possibly. I recall VG were underperforming pretty much throughout the year right up till TI so probably not. If anything VG's run (with the rotk-led deathball) was a pretty good example of how you can show up at a tournament with something special and just make a run with it. Happened again with CDEC somewhat, except not as extreme.
Also just briefly scanning that quote tree nearly gave me cancer, thank fuck for the Azarkon Script
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Sanya12364 Posts
Azarkon rationalizations for being wrong all the time are hilarious.
You just need to approach his posts with the right mindset.
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On April 25 2016 20:16 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai. Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year. And two, I just laughed at you saying I understand both games more then you do. A. You've probably never made it past 4k let alone to 5k, or even anywhere close to 6k mmr, especially considering that years ago you were busy getting banned from TDA games for going AFK and giving up in a game. People don't suddenly change their colors too; I'd suspect you're probably the same today. http://da-archive.com/index.php?showtopic=26275B. You've already stated that you have no idea how League of Legends meta play even works, as you don't even play the game, nor do you even follow that scene very much. You've been banned multiple times for the stupid shit you say; Na'vi saving strats/throwing on purpose, talking shit about Chinese LoL teams, going way off topic just to push your agenda/bias in threads that have nothing to do with West/East teams, etc. not to mention the plethora of times people mock you for your statements every single thread. You're ignorant, you don't play either DotA or League at a high level, and you're straight up annoying. Half the shit you throw out there has little to no actual content, and you spew it out more then a fatass that has profuse diarrhea with a failing sphincter. User was warned for this post
Lelz.
First of all, you think the person in that game is me? I don't use Azarkon in game, and never have. However, I am famous enough, I suppose, that there are people taking my name across the community. Including the Reddit "Azarkon" who also isn't me, and the Twitch "Azarkon" who of course isn't me.
Second, I love how you fall back to personal attacks at the first choice. Not a single argument with facts or logic, which simply shows that you've lost before you even began. Certainly, I've received my share of hate from various people over the years for being "against" Chinese Dota, but who can avoid such when you're being negative about one of the largest and most proud Dota communities in the world? Do you know the amount of hate Sumail, Swindlemelonzz, etc. got from the Chinese Dota community for talking shit about them?
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On April 25 2016 20:40 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 13:04 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:47 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:28 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:00 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 11:53 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
[quote]
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand that scene more than you do, given your attitude towards the game ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a given day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the surface would say. + Show Spoiler +At last, we have top Western teams in an international tournament. + Show Spoiler +Top Western teams are a different class. + Show Spoiler +I am pretty sure now that VGR was able to win the last tournament only because Natus Vincere was the best team there. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. + Show Spoiler +We'll see whether Fnatic can stand alone. + Show Spoiler +Top Western team wins in the end. + Show Spoiler +Second day: Western teams win everything. + Show Spoiler +You'll see that both of the Western teams used a lot of the same heroes. It's obvious Western strategy > Asian strategy. + Show Spoiler +I still think a Western team is going to win, but Fnatic is the closest they've ever been to a win. The problem is, I think Fnatic's carry is not a top carry, and they've been able to win games with the other four, rather than because of him. + Show Spoiler +China is back to being on top of Southeast Asia, I suppose. That's a start. Of course they're still below top Western teams, as you have seen and as you will see. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. So what? I'm wrong for one or two tournaments in a year. As I said before, I'd say I'm right about 70%. Considering Chinese teams rarely comprise more than 30% of all participating teams in a tournament (usually less), having even a 70% 'correct' prediction rate in saying "West will win" is not exactly spectacular. If you had predicted at least one of Chinese tournament wins, you could try to construct an argument for having some kind of insight into the game or whatever. As it stands though, you're not showing any insight or knowledge at all, you're merely repeating the same old broken record. China has actually performed better than than they should by the numbers if you look at overall results between TI5 and now. It's not as if 'West wins!' means anything if in a tournament with 16 teams, the 2 present Chinese teams take places anywhere in top 5 or so. In the 11 Premier tournaments since TI5 that featured any Chinese presence at all, China has won 3, took 2nd place in another 2, and further 11 places within top 4 of said tournaments. You could make an argument for China not having a single consistently good team comparable to EG or Secret of the West (and you'd probably be right), but your claims of Chinese region as a whole being weak are not only retarded but also completely and utterly disproved by simple stats. The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is largely irrelevant to the results. Korean teams, for example, have never been more than 20% of the teams in any League of Legends tournament, but have won 90% of them. America sends even less teams than China to Dota tournaments, but has had higher results than them for much of the past year. Southeast Asia has been sending teams to large international Dota tournaments for the past three years, yet has lost practically every single one until a Korean team came around. Chinese teams made up 30% of the teams in Shanghai but 0% of teams above eight. You want to use such arguments? Then get them right, and once you do, you'll begin to see what I see. China could've sent eight teams to Shanghai and they'd have all placed below the Western teams there. How are any of your examples in any way relevant? What do Korean teams of League of Legends have to do with DotA? The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is actually very much relevant to the results and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. It rarely determines the winner, but, as an extreme example, having top3 comprise of Chinese teams only in a 16 team tournament is far more significant than having top3 comprise of non-Chinese teams only in the same tournament. How isn't that obvious to you is beyond me. Ignoring the Shanghai major, the overall tally for games between Chinese & non-Chinese teams in bracket stages of premier tournaments since TI5 is 61-52 in favor of China. The 'ratio' is pretty much the same if you do count the group stage games as well. There is literally zero evidence anywhere towards Chinese teams being 'weaker' than non-Chinese teams as a whole. Dota isn't any more random than League of Legends, so why wouldn't the ability of one region to win tournaments be similar in both games? Had Korea been in Dota to the same degree that they are in League of Legends, people would talk about Koreans winning everything. But that is only a more obvious case of it. In Dota, because there is no Korea, the effects are less obvious and harder for the average person to see. But they're still there and they can still be seen by people who look. And again, while I wouldn't say that the amount of teams from a region has no effect, regions in Dota only have a few top teams, and it doesn't matter how many Team Archons you send to a tournament, they'll all lose because they're bad. So say we run an American tournament and invite 15 Team Archons and 1 top Chinese team. Would it make it any more significant that they win the tournament? No, because Dota isn't random. The amount of bad teams in a tournament doesn't make it difficult. The amount of top teams in a tournament does. As for not including Shanghai, why would you do that? Shanghai was the most important tournament in the last three months. Rather than act as though the last four tournaments show that "China is back," you ought to look at the obvious difference between what Chinese teams are doing now, against what they were doing before and around the time of Shanghai. I'm just going to ignore you ranting about the relation between LoL and DotA as its utterly pointless. As for the rest of it... regions in DotA have more than 'a few' top teams, which is why out of 13 premier events following TI5, 10 different teams won them. There are only 2 teams with multiple premier tournament wins in this time frame, and both of them seem to be falling off quite hard right now as well. The top 4 placements in all of those tournaments while often featuring many 'familiar' faces are also quite a mixed bag. Most recent tournaments were won by teams very few predicted would do well, nevermind win them entirely; many times the obvious favorites were eliminated by teams no one expects to do well. Your argument about 15 team archons has no merit whatsoever because just about any top20 European or top10 Chinese team can take out EG or Team Secret or whatever on a good day, as proven by MVP, Na'Vi, Team Empire, etc etc in the recent months. The reason I didn't include Shanghai is because it was a clear aberration in terms of Chinese results; it is completely inconsistent with the rest of tournaments around this time period and while somewhat silly, the excuse about Lunar New Years might actually hold more weight than we think it does. At any rate, the Chinese only lost a few games in the bracket stage there as they all got eliminated in bo1s straight away so even with it included overall count wouldn't look much different. China vs 'the world' still has a higher than 50% winrate, even if you exclude obvious bad teams like Archon or Complexity or whatever they still have a ~50% or better win ratio against 'top western teams' so your arguments about China being 'terrible' are dogshit but it's not like we didn't know this already so please just stop posting your crap until you come up with something of substance already
For one who talks about results, you certainly have provided few of it. Do you actually think the Chinese would've not won a single tournament in most of 2015 and early 2016, had it been the case that they had an even win rate against top Western teams?
When Alliance did well, in 2013, they had a 28-1 record against top Chinese teams. 28-1. That's 96.4% win rate. They won practically every game they played. PPD's team, though not as high as Alliance, was also well over 50% - around 80% from what I remember, through the course of 2015. The first Puppey + Arteezy Secret had a similar record all the way until the international.
Other Western teams had less of a positive record, sure, but this goes back to what I said about there being only a few top teams in every region. Up until now, we have rarely seen random Chinese teams come in and take the entire tournament. That started when the Chinese teams started putting in more effort for their less famous players & teams, which was around late 2015. But it wasn't until late 2015, with CDEC, that they started doing well in big international tournaments. Before then, China and the West both had about 3-4 teams that won everything, and were you to look back to the tournaments through most of 2015, you'll see just this.
Of course, I already stated above that it might all be changing, as most of what you're arguing is with respect to the last two tournaments, when China had successful results. But what I find ridiculous is your practice of not including Shanghai and most of the tournaments in 2015, but including all the tournaments that China did well in the last two weeks.
The simple fact is: from February 2015 to March 2016, China had a much lower win rate against the very top Western teams, and that is why they lost all but one tournament during that year. Only during the international in 2015, did that win rate go up, but still not enough for them to take the tournament. This began to change only in the last two weeks, and had you include Shanghai, you'd understand this.
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On April 25 2016 21:10 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 20:16 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai. Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year. eh i disagree both vg and newbee were strong contenders for best team of 2014 as a whole.
What? For almost the entire year DK in 2014 was by far the strongest team. They only failed to win the big tournament in the end because they essentially choked and were caught in a bad meta for them. One tournament doesn't trump the consistent domination of an entire scene for an extended period of time.
On April 26 2016 05:09 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 20:16 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:On April 25 2016 01:45 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:38 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:26 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 01:21 Dracolich70 wrote:On April 25 2016 01:18 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, because they deserve the shit for not taking the West seriously and for not developing their region. Further, there was a specific event that simply put me off of their teams. There's a cause for why Wang Sicong's team is the one I shit on the most. Yes. But you gave that shit, when [A] went to China, and Chuan had to eat humble pie. They do respect Western Dota - some teams even try to copy CIS aggression in the past few years, over safe meticulous play. I see more games being played in China, and more teams coming through. It has been a long ride. Now we need NA, SEA and SA to develope. They obviously did not respect Western Dota in 2013, and they did pay for it. I'm not sure about 2015. They did respect the West, I thought, but did not respect their own new players, and also fail to respect the need for practice. They didn't respect Western Dota in 2013? How do you figure? Because Na'vi and [A] did best? Half the team that went upper bracket were Chinese, and half the teams in Top 6 were Chinese. Western dota or rather [A] and Na'vi were just ahead of the curve still. Regarding the rest, it might serve you some good to insert your reasoning both ways and to both sides, as you tried to explain MDL for instance as going on holiday, and not being prepared. Is that due to lack of respect for Chinese Dota on their side? This is what the best Chinese team said in 2013, about two months before the international:
"[Regarding Western teams] I can only say that if we don’t completely make fools out of them, then their strategies are decades ahead of ours.”
As for the Ehome win, I think you'll agree that during this tournament, Ehome was actually a top team - not the current Ehome - and that further, PPD's team was playing the worst they've ever played due to the conflict between PPD and Arteezy. I'm not saying China's win here doesn't matter but they don't show the West's skill, as we found in Shanghai a month after.
The fact is, until China changes this - and I'm not talking about these tournaments here, but the one coming up - people are always going to argue that the West is the best. Because the West has shown it over the last year. Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general. Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand both games more than you do, given your idea ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the obvious would say. People who have useful opinions about League of Legends would see how similar arguments could be made. In fact, Kelsey Moser, the "China expert," who talks to the people who manage Chinese teams, brings up the exact issues I did years ago in Dota. The fact that you don't see this tells me you don't know shit about either game, in which case it's no wonder you think it's just all bias. And no, you don't just go from a tournament win, to not being able to win against top teams in Shanghai, within a month for no cause at all. Shanghai results make it necessary to say that Ehome's win was not the rule, while the eight month period during which China lost every tournament was. As to whether that has changed, I think we'll have to wait a month to find out, just as we did for Shanghai. Um, because that kind of happened at TI4 with Newbee and Vici? They showed up and just played hot for one tournament. No one would ever dispute that they both played well, but no one is going to say Newbee was a dominant force that year, or even the best team that year. And two, I just laughed at you saying I understand both games more then you do. A. You've probably never made it past 4k let alone to 5k, or even anywhere close to 6k mmr, especially considering that years ago you were busy getting banned from TDA games for going AFK and giving up in a game. People don't suddenly change their colors too; I'd suspect you're probably the same today. http://da-archive.com/index.php?showtopic=26275B. You've already stated that you have no idea how League of Legends meta play even works, as you don't even play the game, nor do you even follow that scene very much. You've been banned multiple times for the stupid shit you say; Na'vi saving strats/throwing on purpose, talking shit about Chinese LoL teams, going way off topic just to push your agenda/bias in threads that have nothing to do with West/East teams, etc. not to mention the plethora of times people mock you for your statements every single thread. You're ignorant, you don't play either DotA or League at a high level, and you're straight up annoying. Half the shit you throw out there has little to no actual content, and you spew it out more then a fatass that has profuse diarrhea with a failing sphincter. User was warned for this post Lelz. First of all, you think the person in that game is me? I don't use Azarkon in game, and never have. However, I am famous enough, I suppose, that there are people taking my name across the community. Including the Reddit "Azarkon" who also isn't me, and the Twitch "Azarkon" who of course isn't me. Second, I love how you fall back to personal attacks at the first choice. Not a single argument with facts or logic, which simply shows that you've lost before you even began. Certainly, I've received my share of hate from various people over the years for being "against" Chinese Dota, but who can avoid such when you're being negative about one of the largest and most proud Dota communities in the world? Do you know the amount of hate Sumail, Swindlemelonzz, etc. got from the Chinese Dota community for talking shit about them?
I'm only going to respond to you with "Na'vi threw on purpose" from this point forward. No point in trying to reason with you. In fact, I've got a better one. China has been throwing/sandbagging on purpose in order to win the next TI.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On April 26 2016 05:09 Azarkon wrote:
Second, I love how you fall back to personal attacks at the first choice. Not a single argument with facts or logic, which simply shows that you've lost before you even began. Certainly, I've received my share of hate from various people over the years for being "against" Chinese Dota, but who can avoid such when you're being negative about one of the largest and most proud Dota communities in the world?
Such facepalm.
You're a laughingstock because no one else invest so much time into exaggerating the failures of a scene, discounting the achievements of a scene, hating on teams of a scene, and in this case rationalizing how you were rationalizing why Chinese teams are/were succeeding.
At a certain point, I ban you for your own benefit, so you can stop being so pathetic.
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EPT
