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On April 26 2016 05:47 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 20:40 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 13:04 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:47 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:28 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 12:00 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 11:53 Salazarz wrote:On April 25 2016 11:44 Azarkon wrote:On April 25 2016 06:38 superstartran wrote:
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Here we go again with the excuses. It's hilarious that you can come up with every excuse possible and yet you can't possibly fathom that certain teams will outplay other ones on any given day. All you want to do is push your agenda/bias, to the point that you went into the League of Legends forums and started shitting all over the Chinese scene when you have literally no understanding of League of Legends or that scene in general.
Seriously. Just stop. No one is calling Wings the next TI Champions. All anyone ever said was that they played well, solid, and consistent, and the other teams didn't. Period. End of story. I am certain I understand that scene more than you do, given your attitude towards the game ie "results are just up to who ever plays the best on a given day!" That's what a person who has never went beyond the surface would say. + Show Spoiler +At last, we have top Western teams in an international tournament. + Show Spoiler +Top Western teams are a different class. + Show Spoiler +I am pretty sure now that VGR was able to win the last tournament only because Natus Vincere was the best team there. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. + Show Spoiler +We'll see whether Fnatic can stand alone. + Show Spoiler +Top Western team wins in the end. + Show Spoiler +Second day: Western teams win everything. + Show Spoiler +You'll see that both of the Western teams used a lot of the same heroes. It's obvious Western strategy > Asian strategy. + Show Spoiler +I still think a Western team is going to win, but Fnatic is the closest they've ever been to a win. The problem is, I think Fnatic's carry is not a top carry, and they've been able to win games with the other four, rather than because of him. + Show Spoiler +China is back to being on top of Southeast Asia, I suppose. That's a start. Of course they're still below top Western teams, as you have seen and as you will see. + Show Spoiler +A Western team is going to win so what does it matter. So what? I'm wrong for one or two tournaments in a year. As I said before, I'd say I'm right about 70%. Considering Chinese teams rarely comprise more than 30% of all participating teams in a tournament (usually less), having even a 70% 'correct' prediction rate in saying "West will win" is not exactly spectacular. If you had predicted at least one of Chinese tournament wins, you could try to construct an argument for having some kind of insight into the game or whatever. As it stands though, you're not showing any insight or knowledge at all, you're merely repeating the same old broken record. China has actually performed better than than they should by the numbers if you look at overall results between TI5 and now. It's not as if 'West wins!' means anything if in a tournament with 16 teams, the 2 present Chinese teams take places anywhere in top 5 or so. In the 11 Premier tournaments since TI5 that featured any Chinese presence at all, China has won 3, took 2nd place in another 2, and further 11 places within top 4 of said tournaments. You could make an argument for China not having a single consistently good team comparable to EG or Secret of the West (and you'd probably be right), but your claims of Chinese region as a whole being weak are not only retarded but also completely and utterly disproved by simple stats. The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is largely irrelevant to the results. Korean teams, for example, have never been more than 20% of the teams in any League of Legends tournament, but have won 90% of them. America sends even less teams than China to Dota tournaments, but has had higher results than them for much of the past year. Southeast Asia has been sending teams to large international Dota tournaments for the past three years, yet has lost practically every single one until a Korean team came around. Chinese teams made up 30% of the teams in Shanghai but 0% of teams above eight. You want to use such arguments? Then get them right, and once you do, you'll begin to see what I see. China could've sent eight teams to Shanghai and they'd have all placed below the Western teams there. How are any of your examples in any way relevant? What do Korean teams of League of Legends have to do with DotA? The amount of teams from a region in a tournament is actually very much relevant to the results and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. It rarely determines the winner, but, as an extreme example, having top3 comprise of Chinese teams only in a 16 team tournament is far more significant than having top3 comprise of non-Chinese teams only in the same tournament. How isn't that obvious to you is beyond me. Ignoring the Shanghai major, the overall tally for games between Chinese & non-Chinese teams in bracket stages of premier tournaments since TI5 is 61-52 in favor of China. The 'ratio' is pretty much the same if you do count the group stage games as well. There is literally zero evidence anywhere towards Chinese teams being 'weaker' than non-Chinese teams as a whole. Dota isn't any more random than League of Legends, so why wouldn't the ability of one region to win tournaments be similar in both games? Had Korea been in Dota to the same degree that they are in League of Legends, people would talk about Koreans winning everything. But that is only a more obvious case of it. In Dota, because there is no Korea, the effects are less obvious and harder for the average person to see. But they're still there and they can still be seen by people who look. And again, while I wouldn't say that the amount of teams from a region has no effect, regions in Dota only have a few top teams, and it doesn't matter how many Team Archons you send to a tournament, they'll all lose because they're bad. So say we run an American tournament and invite 15 Team Archons and 1 top Chinese team. Would it make it any more significant that they win the tournament? No, because Dota isn't random. The amount of bad teams in a tournament doesn't make it difficult. The amount of top teams in a tournament does. As for not including Shanghai, why would you do that? Shanghai was the most important tournament in the last three months. Rather than act as though the last four tournaments show that "China is back," you ought to look at the obvious difference between what Chinese teams are doing now, against what they were doing before and around the time of Shanghai. I'm just going to ignore you ranting about the relation between LoL and DotA as its utterly pointless. As for the rest of it... regions in DotA have more than 'a few' top teams, which is why out of 13 premier events following TI5, 10 different teams won them. There are only 2 teams with multiple premier tournament wins in this time frame, and both of them seem to be falling off quite hard right now as well. The top 4 placements in all of those tournaments while often featuring many 'familiar' faces are also quite a mixed bag. Most recent tournaments were won by teams very few predicted would do well, nevermind win them entirely; many times the obvious favorites were eliminated by teams no one expects to do well. Your argument about 15 team archons has no merit whatsoever because just about any top20 European or top10 Chinese team can take out EG or Team Secret or whatever on a good day, as proven by MVP, Na'Vi, Team Empire, etc etc in the recent months. The reason I didn't include Shanghai is because it was a clear aberration in terms of Chinese results; it is completely inconsistent with the rest of tournaments around this time period and while somewhat silly, the excuse about Lunar New Years might actually hold more weight than we think it does. At any rate, the Chinese only lost a few games in the bracket stage there as they all got eliminated in bo1s straight away so even with it included overall count wouldn't look much different. China vs 'the world' still has a higher than 50% winrate, even if you exclude obvious bad teams like Archon or Complexity or whatever they still have a ~50% or better win ratio against 'top western teams' so your arguments about China being 'terrible' are dogshit but it's not like we didn't know this already so please just stop posting your crap until you come up with something of substance already  For one who talks about results, you certainly have provided few of it. Do you actually think the Chinese would've not won a single tournament in most of 2015 and early 2016, had it been the case that they had an even win rate against top Western teams?
Again, what are you talking about? DAC was dominated by China with exception of EG taking first place. D2CL s5 had a single Chinese team in it and they took 2nd place. SL12 had 2 Chinese teams in it and they took 1st/2nd. The Summit 3 featured VG and LGD taking 3rd/4th place after being knocked out by rampaging EG and Team Secret. i-League season 3 was a chiefly Chinese tournament so we can ignore it if you wish, only non-chinese teams there were Alliance and Team Malaysia, TM managed a 3rd place but that's it. ESL Frankfurt 2015 had one Chinese team in it, who took 3-4th place after being knocked out by eventual winners Team Secret. The International 2015 featured 3 out of 4 teams from China in top4. Those are the only Premier tournaments of 2015 pre-TI that featured both Western and Chinese teams. I don't really feel like counting games / series results, but they had a far better than 'even' win rate against Western teams, with the only exception being EG and later for a while Team Secret.
On April 26 2016 05:47 Azarkon wrote:When Alliance did well, in 2013, they had a 28-1 record against top Chinese teams. 28-1. That's 96.4% win rate. They won practically every game they played. PPD's team, though not as high as Alliance, was also well over 50% - around 80% from what I remember, through the course of 2015. The first Puppey + Arteezy Secret had a similar record all the way until the international.
Other Western teams had less of a positive record, sure, but this goes back to what I said about there being only a few top teams in every region. Up until now, we have rarely seen random Chinese teams come in and take the entire tournament. That started when the Chinese teams started putting in more effort for their less famous players & teams, which was around late 2015. But it wasn't until late 2015, with CDEC, that they started doing well in big international tournaments. Before then, China and the West both had about 3-4 teams that won everything, and were you to look back to the tournaments through most of 2015, you'll see just this.
Alliance also held a similar winrate against non-Chinese teams with exception of Na'Vi. What's your point? It doesn't show just how good 'Europe' is, only that Alliance as a team figured out a way to play that took everyone -- not just China -- else a long time to solve. It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Unlike you, I actually did go and look back to the tournaments through most of 2015 -- and you're simply wrong. The ONLY teams that were consistently successful against top Chinese teams were EG and later Secret. You can't seriously make the argument about 'West' being stronger than China off the back of that, if anything you should be saying that NA DotA is the best DotA in the world but that's just a retarded statement to make because as I said this before, one team does not a successful region make.
On April 26 2016 05:47 Azarkon wrote:Of course, I already stated above that it might all be changing, as most of what you're arguing is with respect to the last two tournaments, when China had successful results. But what I find ridiculous is your practice of not including Shanghai and most of the tournaments in 2015, but including all the tournaments that China did well in the last two weeks.
The simple fact is: from February 2015 to March 2016, China had a much lower win rate against the very top Western teams, and that is why they lost all but one tournament during that year. Only during the international in 2015, did that win rate go up, but still not enough for them to take the tournament. This began to change only in the last two weeks, and had you include Shanghai, you'd understand this.
The fact is, you're making up shit to keep driving your misguided narrative. Go and see for yourself. Every single tournament through the years from the day DotA2 became a thing and until now shows that Shanghai was completely unlike anything we've seen before. And one more time, even if you DO include the Shanghai meltdown in overall calculations, China would have a winrate of around 55-60% in series against non-Chinese teams, with the vast majority of their losses coming from the 'hot streak' teams of the time such as EG, Secret in their 'good' time period, etc. The 'average' Chinese team had generally been slightly ahead of the 'average' non-Chinese team and it is only very recently that that started changing. All the numbers are on my side. On your side, there is only the power of blind faith.
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idunno about you guys but when I see a crying baby being annoying I just walk away instead of trying to deliver a speech to the baby about why he is being annoying
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but how will you convince the baby that you're right and it's dumb for crying if you just walk away from it?!?! Please Uriel be reasonable.
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Spending an hour and a half on the subway every other day makes you do terrible things (like talking to Azarkon)
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On April 26 2016 11:19 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 05:09 Azarkon wrote:
Second, I love how you fall back to personal attacks at the first choice. Not a single argument with facts or logic, which simply shows that you've lost before you even began. Certainly, I've received my share of hate from various people over the years for being "against" Chinese Dota, but who can avoid such when you're being negative about one of the largest and most proud Dota communities in the world? Such facepalm. You're a laughingstock because no one else invest so much time into exaggerating the failures of a scene, discounting the achievements of a scene, hating on teams of a scene, and in this case rationalizing how you were rationalizing why Chinese teams are/were succeeding.
For that to make sense, you'd first have to prove that I am "exaggerating" the failures of a scene, "discounting" the achievements of a scene, and "hating" on the teams of a scene. The only difference between me and most of the people here is that I don't baby words. I tell it as I see it, and when Western teams do bad or engage in ridiculous practices, I do the same.
Trouble is, the West hasn't been doing bad until recently, and still haven't in the most important tournaments since the international last year. The West has controlled the top three of both $3 million tournaments, has won >80% of all tournaments since February last year, and was/is without dispute the best region in Dota 2. If you don't enjoy me talking about it, then you must not have enjoyed the last year of Dota 2 very much.
When a top Western team loses to a Chinese team, I'll say that the Chinese team did well and that the Chinese scene might be on the rise. Did I make an excuse for Liquid when they lost Manila? Did I say they were not a top team because they lost? No. I don't make "excuses" - I look at the facts around the tournament and the teams, and decide how much they're worth - thus, I won't think that a small tournament right before the international is worth as much as the international, but I also won't think that the international is the only tournament that matters, especially now that there are $3 million tournaments every three months.
But just the same, I don't tolerate "excuses." Such as "Chinese teams did pretty well when you ignore Secret and PPD's team" or "Chinese teams did pretty well in the last few months when you ignore Shanghai." I don't baby Chinese teams and I don't try to defend them for their failures, because these are professional players making lots of money a year, and should be held to a higher standard.
At a certain point, I ban you for your own benefit, so you can stop being so pathetic.
That would only show how insecure you are as a moderator. That you can't handle facts or criticism of your favorite scene.
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On April 26 2016 11:43 Salazarz wrote:
Again, what are you talking about? DAC was dominated by China with exception of EG taking first place. D2CL s5 had a single Chinese team in it and they took 2nd place. SL12 had 2 Chinese teams in it and they took 1st/2nd. The Summit 3 featured VG and LGD taking 3rd/4th place after being knocked out by rampaging EG and Team Secret. i-League season 3 was a chiefly Chinese tournament so we can ignore it if you wish, only non-chinese teams there were Alliance and Team Malaysia, TM managed a 3rd place but that's it. ESL Frankfurt 2015 had one Chinese team in it, who took 3-4th place after being knocked out by eventual winners Team Secret. The International 2015 featured 3 out of 4 teams from China in top4. Those are the only Premier tournaments of 2015 pre-TI that featured both Western and Chinese teams. I don't really feel like counting games / series results, but they had a far better than 'even' win rate against Western teams, with the only exception being EG and later for a while Team Secret.
DAC was "dominated" by China? What are you smoking? Besides VG taking second, the next best Chinese team was a last minute team put together by Xiao8 at 4th. All the other top professional Chinese teams didn't even make it past teams such as Rave and Cloud9. Were you there when DAC happened? Because nobody thought China did well at the time; I specifically remember TheYango observing how all the professional Chinese teams outside of VG finished below Xiao8's public team. There were nine Chinese teams in this tournament including ALL the top Chinese teams; it was the largest Chinese showing in any tournament, and yet their results were very much below that of the West, even on average.
As for D2CL, why don't you take a look at this tournament before talking about it?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Dota_2_Champions_League/Season_5
See how all the Chinese teams were on one side of the group, and all the Western teams were on the other side? That's because the group was played online. The tournament only had four teams. See how the only Western teams VG beat were Burden United and Ninjas in Pajamas? Did anyone think, at the time, that these were the best Western teams?
Starladder 12, I will give to you as the one tournament in which the Chinese did well in early 2015.
The rest of the tournaments, before AND after the international, all had Chinese teams losing to the top Western teams there. Why did you stop at tournaments *before* the international?
Again, you said that Chinese teams had an even or higher win rate against TOP Western teams in 2015. That is not the case.
Alliance also held a similar winrate against non-Chinese teams with exception of Na'Vi. What's your point? It doesn't show just how good 'Europe' is, only that Alliance as a team figured out a way to play that took everyone -- not just China -- else a long time to solve. It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Unlike you, I actually did go and look back to the tournaments through most of 2015 -- and you're simply wrong. The ONLY teams that were consistently successful against top Chinese teams were EG and later Secret. You can't seriously make the argument about 'West' being stronger than China off the back of that, if anything you should be saying that NA DotA is the best DotA in the world but that's just a retarded statement to make because as I said this before, one team does not a successful region make.
If you remove the two best teams from a region, and then say this shows the region is not the best, how is that fair? That's the equivalent of saying that, were we to take out SKT and Tigers from Korea in League of Legends, then the regions are actually pretty even. After all, the third best Korean team, whichever it is, constantly loses to top Western/Chinese teams at worlds, so doesn't that show there is no disparity?
The fact is, you're making up shit to keep driving your misguided narrative. Go and see for yourself. Every single tournament through the years from the day DotA2 became a thing and until now shows that Shanghai was completely unlike anything we've seen before. And one more time, even if you DO include the Shanghai meltdown in overall calculations, China would have a winrate of around 55-60% in series against non-Chinese teams, with the vast majority of their losses coming from the 'hot streak' teams of the time such as EG, Secret in their 'good' time period, etc. The 'average' Chinese team had generally been slightly ahead of the 'average' non-Chinese team and it is only very recently that that started changing. All the numbers are on my side. On your side, there is only the power of blind faith.
Yes, why don't we ignore their results against the best teams in the West, and only focus on their results against teams such as Burden United, Natus Vincere, Empire, Virtus Pro, and Complexity...? You can make the "average" argument for Chinese teams, but the fact that China sends its best teams, by virtue of the fact that tournaments invite fewer of them, makes it a bad sample.
Until the last two weeks, you rarely saw a second rate Chinese team go to an international tournament, but second rate Western teams go to them *all the time*. It's just as you said earlier: only 30% of a tournament is made up of Chinese teams; but up to 70% is made up of Western teams, many of which go not because they deserve it but because organizers need additional teams. So of course, there will be more bad Western teams than there will be bad Chinese teams, as the process by which they get in is not random. Most international tournaments are held by the West, and organizers will then invite more Western teams because it's easier and less expensive to get them there than it is to get a Chinese team there.
This is why I only look at results between TOP teams - because otherwise, there'd be a sample bias in favor of Chinese teams. The only way your argument could work is in case we had the same amount of Western and Chinese teams in every tournament, but we never do.
As for Shanghai being completely outside of anything we've ever seen before - sure, it was worse than expected, but a few people, including myself, saw a huge Chinese loss coming. I didn't expect it to be that bad - I thought they'd beat Southeast Asia - but I was pretty sure it would be worse than previous Chinese results, and you can find the post in which I said so.
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Sanya12364 Posts
You know I'm back to amused onlooker mode.
Azarkon, please continue on with your great show. No one else argues 2-3 days after a tournament about their own life worth in dota commentary.
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So every team that isn't EG or Secret is a second rate Western team, or what? By the way, EG has a total record of 29-20 vs Chinese teams since TI5 (TI itself included). If you think that the supposed best team in the world having a ~60% winrate against all teams from a region shows that the said region sucks, I honestly don't know what else to tell you.
You keep telling me that you 'look' at results of different things. I keep asking you, give me some numbers. Give me some hard examples of what you are 'considering' in your assumptions, let's see what facts are your observations based on. If you're going to just report with another blah blah without backing it with a single number yet again, I'll just have to concede that you are indeed beyond redemption in your insanity and find something else to fill my subway rides with.
By the way, if you took out SKT and Tigers from Korea, Korea would still be smashing the hell out of Western teams in LoL (or at least it did until a year ago, haven't really followed that game at all since). And what does LoL have to do with this, again? Are you trying to pretend that you're some kind of a multi-game expert on China's failings or something?
Oh and since I do like my numbers,
Trouble is, the West hasn't been doing bad until recently, and still haven't in the most important tournaments since the international last year. The West has controlled the top three of both $3 million tournaments, has won >80% of all tournaments since February last year, and was/is without dispute the best region in Dota 2. If you don't enjoy me talking about it, then you must not have enjoyed the last year of Dota 2 very much.
There were 20 Premier tournaments with at least one Chinese team present since February last year. Chinese teams won 5 of them. So no, 'The West' did not win >80%. Sure, Western sceneS are doing well no doubt, but it's not like the Chinese aren't.
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Vatican City State1573 Posts
is this thread still a thing ?
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i mean really west have more tournaments, more players, more active / organic competitions (sans ACE) and now have more or less equal or better organized professional scene, so it would be really really weird if China continue to dominate dota (and to be honest China have never truly dominated dota)
I suspect A-GOD would never be happy because he judges all eastern scenes using Korea as the standard but really Korea in video game is an enigma, not the average, east or west.
Just be happy that more or less, the east vs west narrative is on-going because China can field competitive teams come international, it would be a bore if we get some Koreans that win everything ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME.
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On April 27 2016 09:48 Salazarz wrote:
So every team that isn't EG or Secret is a second rate Western team, or what? By the way, EG has a total record of 29-20 vs Chinese teams since TI5 (TI itself included). If you think that the supposed best team in the world having a ~60% winrate against all teams from a region shows that the said region sucks, I honestly don't know what else to tell you.
Why did you not include their results before the international, from the rest of 2015? Also, didn't I tell you that top Western teams are higher than even against Chinese teams?
You keep telling me that you 'look' at results of different things. I keep asking you, give me some numbers. Give me some hard examples of what you are 'considering' in your assumptions, let's see what facts are your observations based on. If you're going to just report with another blah blah without backing it with a single number yet again, I'll just have to concede that you are indeed beyond redemption in your insanity and find something else to fill my subway rides with.
You've already done it for PPD's team, so now I'll do it for Secret.
Secret, since January last year, has a 61-25 result against Chinese teams. That's a 70% win across 86 different games. This includes every international tournament in this time.
Now, you want to tell me again how Chinese teams were even against top Western teams in 2015?
By the way, if you took out SKT and Tigers from Korea, Korea would still be smashing the hell out of Western teams in LoL (or at least it did until a year ago, haven't really followed that game at all since). And what does LoL have to do with this, again? Are you trying to pretend that you're some kind of a multi-game expert on China's failings or something?
I do, in fact, believe that China's results in League of Legends matter, because the same ideas work for both games. I could write a lot about this, but I won't here because the only cause to bring this up was to show you that you can't take out the two best teams in a region when you look at results.
There were 20 Premier tournaments with at least one Chinese team present since February last year. Chinese teams won 5 of them. So no, 'The West' did not win >80%. Sure, Western sceneS are doing well no doubt, but it's not like the Chinese aren't.
You're including the tournament that you yourself said you were going to not include, and I did make a mistake because I thought the big tournament in China was in February when it was in January.
In any case, you said that Chinese teams had five wins. But were we to take away the last two weeks, that comes down to just three, and were we to not include the tournament that you yourself said you won't include, then we have just two. And one of them was Ehome right before Shanghai. That leaves just one in 2015.
One win in the entire year of 2015 in tournaments in which top Western teams were there. That's what you say is doing well. Now do you see why it's the last two weeks that are different, and not Shanghai?
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